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Why not remove the macro'ers.. not the ice?

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Larkonis Trassler g guild	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:00:00 - [61] So when I open up the market how do I know who's minerals have been mined by macroers eh? I don't. Move all Ice to Lowsec, problem solved. ------------ Request for Privateer Sticky! Keep the forums clean!
Justus Sandrius	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:23:00 - [62] Originally by: Roshan longshot This is what happens when a PvP game is dependent on a PVE function. You need minerals to replace your ships, you dont want to mine for them, so you buy from the cheapest source, you support the isk/gold farmers....... The only solution there can be for this problem is STOP buying from the farmers....Dont buy the minerals, he wont earn isk, no isk, no real life money, he moves on.... Exactly my point. As the DEV wrote: players buying ISK screw up the economy resulting in ISK inflation. That's the source of the problem. If anything should be done, it's automatic tracing of ISK transactions, just as in RL. That's easier than finding out if a macrominer is really a macrominer. ISK transfers leave traces. If you receive a large amount from another player, you run the risk of being asked where you got it. It's like in RL, trace "black" money and get it from the buyer. So: you as a player don't get banned, you just see a withdrawal of the bought amount from your account-->RL money down the drain, no incentive to buy ISK anymore. However, this is all easier said than done. How to determine "black" ISK? One possible solution is to remove the option of ISK transfer. Ok, this still leaves open the possibility to sell 1 trit for 100M. But, it enables automatic detection of suspect market transactions, e.g., those transactions in which items are sold for less than half of the current market value. This is also a RL sign of "money laundry". If ISK transfer is banned, macroing can be detected easier, because the source of the macroing (ISK selling) can now be traced. However, removing ISK transfer has a large number of ramifications of course. Just an idea. But the bottom line is: don't buy ISK! And grief any player/corp/alliance you know of who did :-) That's called autoregulation.
Justus Sandrius	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:32:00 - [63] And I wanted to add one thing: As a pretty experienced programmer I can assure you that moving whatever resource to whatever region is not gonna help. It is very easy to adapt a computer programm such that it can cope with BS rats. As we all know from evolution (and recent developments in antibiotics resistance): increasing selection pressure is only going to make the competition stronger, if there still exists a survival niche. The result of moving minerals and stuff to 0.0 is: extremely hard to kill awfully agressive macrominers flying 20 ravens, killing everyting that enters the system. If there is real money to be made, you'de be surprised what people come up with. Same for NPC corps being able to be war dec-ed. There's no point in doing this. It will screw-up a lot for many starting players, and it won't resolve the issue, macro bots will just become smarter and operate in teams as if in 0.0.
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.03.19 11:33:00 - [64] Originally by: MIshgar Was this not why Dragon was created? Simple solution for people macromining, set mining modules to randomly switch off after 1-10 cycles and not all of them or the same one. Launch macro Module 1,2,3=on Cycle Module 1,2,3=off Module 1,2,3=on Cycle Module 1,2,3=off Module 1,2,3=on Cycle <Random switchoff> Module 1<on>, 2<off>, 3<off> => Marco attempts to turn modules off Module 1<off>, 2<on>, 3<on> => Now Macro attempts to turn on all three Module 1<on>, 2<off>, 3<off> <- not a solution but a start This will annoy macroers a lot less then the normal miner. A macroer will just create a macro which checks wether a module is swiched on or off (check the color of the icon) and activate that module again. Because it's all automatically he will even loose less time activating his miners then a normal player.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:12:00 - [65] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 19/03/2007 12:10:02 Originally by: MIshgar Was this not why Dragon was created? Simple solution for people macromining, set mining modules to randomly switch off after 1-10 cycles and not all of them or the same one. Launch macro Module 1,2,3=on Cycle Module 1,2,3=off Module 1,2,3=on Cycle Module 1,2,3=off Module 1,2,3=on Cycle <Random switchoff> Module 1<on>, 2<off>, 3<off> => Marco attempts to turn modules off Module 1<off>, 2<on>, 3<on> => Now Macro attempts to turn on all three Module 1<on>, 2<off>, 3<off> <- not a solution but a start You know that little thing called capacitor? Stripminers don't run on a pure heart and good intentions. When 3 stripminers start a cycle for some time a covetor don'thave the capacitor to re-start a cycle. If you start breaking the cycle randomly the capacitor will not the capable of keeping all the 3 stripminers active, even less if you need to run the shield booster while your drones kill some rat. Beside that if you do this little joke on a ice miner you will stop a 6-10 minute cycle with no result (as there isn't a partial result from icemining). To CCP Fear: if this move wasan't done for inconvenience the sweatshops and macro miners, what was the reason? The ice found in high sec is the equivalent of scordite in quality, and it is used for the high sec POS, so why it has been removed? and this thing will continue, removing it from progressively lower sec systems? If that is the idea, we at least know that CCP has decided that high sec POS should be scrapped.
ArchenTheGreat Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:20:00 - [66] The problem with macro is they are stupid. Macro is simple program, and even most advanced programs can't match people's mind. The only solution I can see is to make all ISK-generating activities in game to require some intelligence. Make it such there is no straightforward way (algorithm) to gather ISK. There is a reason most macros are for miners. I have never heard about a macro for mission running nor belt hunting nor trading. It may be possible but much harder. In some cases it's not possible at all - in cases when earning ISK forces you to direct competition with other player. There will be no macro for running 0.0 alliance even if it would generate a lot more ISK than mining macro. CCP should change the game to force people to PVP more. And I am not talking about pew-pew style PVP but all kinds of PVP. Miners competing for belts, traders for trade routes etc. Make EVE pure PVP game where every way to gather ISK requires some amount of wisdom, intelligence and thinking. Make EVE a game no computer can play better than human. As a parachute for some players or starting characters CCP could leave a way to make SMALL amounts of ISK in per character controlled way. Like 100k ISK per day or something. Just to let you start or make your EVE-life profitable again when you are completely broke.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:29:00 - [67] Target the root cause of ISK farmers û ISK farmers farm because they can turn a profit/ It's that simple. There is a solution that both fits with Eve's RP background and can put a significant dent into ISK farmer operations. Create NPC corp belt Rats. Have these anti-farmer rats only attack players in belts AND only if they are in an NPC corp AND only if they are in a barge. Make these rats deal decent DPS and have decent tanks. Cruiser and BS sized rats in high sec with low bounties. Also, killing these rats should have negative impact on the NPC corp standing. The NPC corps that control the rats are the same NPC corps that happen to have stations in the system. This will do two things. One, disrupt ISK farmer operations û they'll have to spend a lot of time dealing with these big rats. And secondly, they'll loose standings to the same stations in which they are refining and selling, which will cause even more loss of profits. The ISK farmers can create a corp if they want to avoid the rats - and then the community can take care of the ISK farmers. This does create an inconvenience for solo players that are legit, but no more an inconvenience than the ISK farmers already present by mining the same roids these solo players want to mine. New players aren't flying barges around anyway, and by the time they can, most of them have found a player corp. -AS
Frogzuk Dragonian Freelancers	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:31:00 - [68] ok there is a simple solution to this in all honestly macroers do it to generate game isk to sell for r/l money sooo if all those lamers out there would STOP buying game isk with real life money the macro problem should go away ! DGF has a policy of reporting any sightings of macros and If i ever discover a member of DGF buying game isk they are also reported and booted ! There is also the need to limit the ability of players in npc corps so .... lets say ice mining is not possible if you are in a npc corp, thus removing the general macro trend of being mainly NPC corp members thus forcing them to create a corp for themselves thus giving joe public in eve an opportunity to war dec macroers. To actually take this one step further and be brave (puts on tin hat) NPC corp members should not beable to fly certain classes of ships, and i would suggest nothing bigger than a crusier. This would satisfy the newer player enabling them to learn eve at their own pace upto crusier class, this would remove macroers ability to farm roids /ice altogether as they will only be able mine in ospreys or similar cruiser ships which isnt going to make much of an impact on the roids. Some of you say well i dont want to be in a corp and like the life of an npc corp, sorry, you guys want to be alone, you can be alone in your own corp no need to hide behind the npc flag ! froggy
Suicide Cid	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:34:00 - [69] GM' should convo people to see if they are macro'ers. I am sure CCP can hire a couple of guys who speak Albanian Asturian Basque Berber Breton Bulgarian Catalan Cornish Corsican Croatian Czech Danish Dutch Finnish Franco-provental Frisian Friulian Gaelic Galician German Greek Hungarian Irish Ladin Luxembourgian Macedonian Mirandese Occitan Portuguese Saami Sardinian Slovak Slovene Sorbian Swedish Turkish Walachian and of course Welsh - and thats just european languages.
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:43:00 - [70] Sorry, but very few of you have a clue about macro's. Macro's are rarely run by large groups in coordinated mining for RL Cash. Macro's are run by individuals/pairs for purely personal/corp profit. The farmers you are refering to are good old fashioned hand driven sweat shop workers. If CCP want a fix for macro Ice mining in High sec. Simply make all produce of Ice mined only useable by th ecorp who mined it. As soon as it's mined it's flagged for that corp. It can only be refined by someone in that corp and can only be used in a POS owned by that corp. This instantly fixes all problems with Ice bing in High sec.
Justus Sandrius	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:47:00 - [71] Some extra thoughts: The reason there are no mission running macros is not that it is dificult to proram, but that it is not needed: mining is easier. Making mining more difficult will increase selectivity and push ISK sellers to other type of macros including mission running. Honestly, running lvl3 missions in a well-fitted drake requires no intelligence what so ever! Just a carefully programmed algorithm. Many of you seem to focus on the "phenomenon", not the cause of the problem. The cause is: people buying ISK, the phenomenon is macromining. Kill macromining, enter macromissioning, macroratting, macrowar, whatever.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:51:00 - [72] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot Sorry, but very few of you have a clue about macro's. Macro's are rarely run by large groups in coordinated mining for RL Cash. Sorry, but I know of a crew of around 30 chars that are all part of the same sweat shop. I have watched these guys for months and months. -AS
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:52:00 - [73] Edited by: Elgar Lightfoot on 19/03/2007 12:50:34 ^Sweatshops are generally NOT macro's. Sweatshops do it manually. They get paid to do it manually because it makes more ISK for their bosses. Did you miss the chat log where certain <un-named corp> high ups were selling 0.0 complex access to gold sellers? They were bing paid in game ISK while the Gold sellers were running the complex over and over to make ISK to sell for RL cash. All of these were manually controlled ventures, not macroers.
Izo Azlion Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:55:00 - [74] Originally by: Amphetaminer macro's if not stopped will kill a game.. I've seen it in other games. The people that buy ISK get more and more powerfull. So much that other players just have to deal with it or quit or cheat themselves. This whole real life cash for ingame currency is really destroying the mmorpg genre. To bad its so hard to stop. Alot of times game dev's say "the player base just shouldnt buy ingame money then we wouldnt have this problem" but certain people will always cheat if they have the chance to do so. You should just remove the option for them (somehow). When i first started with mmorpg's 8years back this almost didnt exsist and you didnt have to deal with bots or cheaters.. And to the people that depend on the ice macro miners.. If they where banned the prices would rise and others (real players) would go mine Ice because its finnally worth something for them so prices would lower again. Maybe not as low as it is now but thats probably because its to cheap at the moment. Most the people that buy ISK are complete idiots that have no common sense or knowledge fo teh game mechanics. It makes pirates like me richer. Cheers, Izo. Izo Azlion. --- Thanks to Stubnitz for the Sig.
Justus Sandrius	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:57:00 - [75] Thanks for adding to the argument: it's about selling ISK, and any tactic will do! Even renting 0.0 complexes. Macro, sweatshop, it doesn't matter. Maybe a new type of job should be added to the EVE game: financial investigator. You eanr money by tracking down malafide transactions. If you proof it, you get a percentage of the transfer :-)
Justus Sandrius	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:58:00 - [76] I volunteer for the job :-)
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:00:00 - [77] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot All of these were manually controlled ventures, not macroers.[/quote Let's not play the equivocation game - We all know the deal, ISK Farmer/Macro are virtually synonymous when we're talking about the problem. The problem is ISK selling, regardless of the means. -AS
Xendie Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:01:00 - [78] there are tools for GM's to spot macro miners easily. CCP just refuses to ban them. its easy to check the time interval's that the suspected macro has when moving ore from cargo to can and such. no human hits the exact same interval 40 times in a row nomatter how much he tries. Originally by: "darth solo" bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.
Ombey Exiled.	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:02:00 - [79] Originally by: Farrellus Cameron The problem is that there are macros and there are sweatshop workers. Sweatshop workers are real people (usually in China) who are paid to play 12 hours a day doing the worst possible grinding for isk. The problem is that technically these people are legitimate players. They are sitting in front of their computer, with a paying account, and not using macros. It's very hard to distinguish the two from mere observation. This is the absolute nail on the head, most relevant part of this problem. Most 'macro'ers arent. They are sweatshop workers who CCP can't simply ban for grinding the game. -- 2d EveMaps
Shannaria Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:03:00 - [80] lol you think removing 0.8 + will stop anything atall? jump 2 systems on and find a 0.7 with ice.. not hard.. they will do it.. all you have done is inconvinienced everyone else. my suggestion : remove all ice belts in 0.5+ or make the kessy more suicidle.
Tramp Oline	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:07:00 - [81] The best solution is to make it so that only characters 2 weeks old or less can remain in the noob corp. After 2 weeks you have to either create your own corp, join a corp, or maybe CCP could have a NotSoNoob NPC corp to automatically move them into and give people the ability to war declare the NotSoNoob NPC corp. I don't mind if they macro mine, just give me the ability to stop them if I want to.
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:11:00 - [82] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot All of these were manually controlled ventures, not macroers.[/quote Let's not play the equivocation game - We all know the deal, ISK Farmer/Macro are virtually synonymous when we're talking about the problem. The problem is ISK selling, regardless of the means. That is exactly my point. You are doing your own cause harm by trying to lable people. You are against ISK Cash sales (as are most people). Macroing and ISK sales is not synonymous. They are worlds apart. Focus on your target and ignore all the distractions.
Justus Sandrius	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:16:00 - [83] Although sweatshops and macro-ers can be considered the same regarding their effect (automated, low-cost ISK production), sweatshops are, in a sense, slave labor. So, if you buy ISK, you are actually supporting slave labor. Therefore, buying ISK is ethically incorrect as you never now where the money came from. However, you're probably not a worse person than anyone buying cloths made in China. It's sad to see that real-world economic inequalities even pop-up in a virtual world. Not that this has anything to do with the game EVE itself.
Dravin Dread	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:20:00 - [84] Edited by: Dravin Dread on 19/03/2007 13:17:14 Everyone knows what the probelm is. shesh.
Justus Sandrius	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:21:00 - [85] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot All of these were manually controlled ventures, not macroers.[/quote Let's not play the equivocation game - We all know the deal, ISK Farmer/Macro are virtually synonymous when we're talking about the problem. The problem is ISK selling, regardless of the means. That is exactly my point. You are doing your own cause harm by trying to lable people. You are against ISK Cash sales (as are most people). Macroing and ISK sales is not synonymous. They are worlds apart. Focus on your target and ignore all the distractions. Maybe you're right on this Elgar. But for the game itself both have the same result. Both result in a deflation of the net worth of an hour of honest playing time, either by inflation of ISK (sweatshops ISK sellers), or by inflation of mineral worth (corp macrominers).
Justus Sandrius	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:31:00 - [86] And to add something useless to the discussion: It's interesting to see that in virtual worlds, the two solutions to resolving hard, stupid labor are exactly the same as they have been in the real world. First: force slaves to do it for you (sweatshops) Second: industrialize it (macros). Kinda makes you think doesn;t it.
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:32:00 - [87] Originally by: Xtro 2 Edited by: Xtro 2 on 18/03/2007 09:26:44 theres no way any GM would recognise a macro miner just by watching them cloaked, not without PM'ing every miner there, and to be honest, thats ridiculous, and would irritate the player base. Worst suggestion Ever! Well there is many ways to detects macrominer. Tthey usualy run from one IPs, mining is only thing they do, most time they actions are timed exactly same or repeating on variable bases. If they use drones for kiling rats, they dont care about hauler spawns, it they loot their can they will do nothing except drones atacking you, etc
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:37:00 - [88] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat The problem with macro is they are stupid. Macro is simple program, and even most advanced programs can't match people's mind. The only solution I can see is to make all ISK-generating activities in game to require some intelligence. Make it such there is no straightforward way (algorithm) to gather ISK. There is a reason most macros are for miners. I have never heard about a macro for mission running nor belt hunting nor trading. It may be possible but much harder. In some cases it's not possible at all - in cases when earning ISK forces you to direct competition with other player. There will be no macro for running 0.0 alliance even if it would generate a lot more ISK than mining macro. CCP should change the game to force people to PVP more. And I am not talking about pew-pew style PVP but all kinds of PVP. Miners competing for belts, traders for trade routes etc. Make EVE pure PVP game where every way to gather ISK requires some amount of wisdom, intelligence and thinking. Make EVE a game no computer can play better than human. As a parachute for some players or starting characters CCP could leave a way to make SMALL amounts of ISK in per character controlled way. Like 100k ISK per day or something. Just to let you start or make your EVE-life profitable again when you are completely broke. Well do that and EVE will be gone pretty fast, even pure PVP corps dont PVP 24/7-365, they spent time in high sec time from time. There is no fun to play pure PVP game, for that i dont need EVE i can play CS, Q4, UT etc if i just want to kill, kill, kill....
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:44:00 - [89] Ok how about this? Have the belts claimable? Miner goes out finds a good belt, files a claim against it, he now has the sole right to mine that belt. This will allow for two other options: 1: Claim jumping...PvP anyone? 2: And a record of who applies for a claim..."WIUYRTE has applied for claim on Jita V-IV astroid belt." The claim can be limeted to one roid, 5-10 roids, so many tons of ore, or by the hour. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.19 13:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler So when I open up the market how do I know who's minerals have been mined by macroers eh? I don't. Move all Ice to Lowsec, problem solved. Sure you do, if you mine them yourself. Thats the point, you dont want to mine so you buy from whoever is the cheapest. The cheapest would be the macro users. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.

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