Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 [14] 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 24 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
203
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:02:32 -
[391] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:lunatic is case you missed it I asked for Quote:If I have any facts incorrect I would welcome/like to have links to legit sources so that I can correct my analysis. the openly propagandist quotes you present makes it seem clear you do not have historical facts on your side, why I am not surprised that a sock puppet has no grasp of actual historical facts. I gave you references to history books and chapters, where you can read that. How did it came you managed to miss that is beyond my comprehension. I'll do it one more time though in hope that this time God will let you see the texts, that you so blatantly ignored earlier, making a fool out of yourself to the whole IGS again.
1. Luminate Era of the Gallente Federation 2. Nascent Era of the Gallente Federation 3. Modern Era of the Gallente Federation
Now, go to the library and prove us that even you are capable of reading.
Oh, and before you yap again that it was "propaganda", I have to tell that these books were actually written in the Federation before the war. However, they were removed as far as I know from Federal libraries lately as the war of YC110 has started, and they might rewrite the history. But you can still find them in Amarr Empire and Caldari State. I think you can even find them in the paper form in the Republic and Federation, because paper issues are way harder to destroy than electronic versions.
It is also a widely known fact that History textbooks that the Federation was used in schools were rewritten after the war has started.
((
If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:
Intergalactic Summit - IC router
Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore
))
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2935
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 12:38:30 -
[392] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:How hard is this to understand, people?
1. Caldari corps establish undeclared, illegal, colonies. 2. Federation orders them to render them to the Fed. 3. Caldari announce intention to breakaway from the Fed. 4. Fed denies this as a legal recourse. 5. Demonstrations erupt amongst both Caldari and Gallente populations. 6. Stupid murderous terrorists breach Nouvelle Rouvenor. 7. Stupid Fed Navy blockades Caldari. 8. Stubborn Caldari refuse to yield. 9. Stupid murderous Fed Navy bombs Caldari. 10. Great Hero Tovil-Toba saves Caldari. 11. Caldari flee to colonies.
The above leads to a little tension and bad feeling and a wee war breaks out. The rest of the story is just a series of boots of different shapes and sizes stamping on a series of different human faces forever. The end.
0. Before the incident with colonies has occured, there happened two more major events: *) First, the FTL communications were developed, and gallente started translating their indecency to Caldari homeworld. Such outrage and lack of culture set a lot of Caldari hostile to them. *) Second, real power over Caldari people started to shift from puppet pro-gallentean democratic states on Caldari Prime to Megacorporations.
1. Colonies existed way before the Federation and they weren't illegal. 1a. Before the incident it was absolutely legal to establish colonies.
2. The decision to order the colonies to be transferred to Federation authority was pushed through by gallente ultranationalists. Legality of this demand still can be disputed. But it is a vivid example, how democracy can force will of others to subjugate minorities.
3. Breakaway from the Federation was not just announcement, it was a factual breakaway too. And it was the day the Caldari Navy was formed. We didn't just declared intention to leave. We had declared that we have left.
4. Again, the legality of such action is dubious. They didn't deny us, as we already were separate State. Federals have blockaded the Caldari Prime with their warships.
5. There were not just demonstrations. Gallente on Caldari Prime has splintered into "Free Caldari Army", that was known by their atrocities.
6. The terrorists who breached Nouvelle Rouvenor were neither stupid, nor murderous. They were heroes, who sacrificed their lives.
7. As I have said, blockade happen earlier, and terrorist attacks together with sparkled racism by both Caldari and Gallente has happened already on the blockaded planet.
8 and 9 should be swapped places. Because the first action of Federation was to bombard Caldari Prime for a whole day, and only after that they demanded surrender. Of course we didn't surrender, and the ground invasion has began.
10. Well... I have a lot to say about this, but let this stay as is.
11. We didn't "flee" to colonies. We have evacuated most of the personnel there, thanks to Adm. Tovil-Toba and the following ceasefire that lasted for one year. But after that the war has lasted for 80 years, with us trying to return Caldari Prime back after it was overrun by Federal forces.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
6702
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 15:23:04 -
[393] - Quote
Just trying to come up with as neutral a version as I could, Diana. I could write a couple of screens about each of those points and fill them with my opinions.
The hard part would be getting anyone to read them!
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2935
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 22:32:14 -
[394] - Quote
Okay, let me try it then.
1. Caldari Prime was coerced into joining the Federation. 2. Caldari got angry at Gallente for spreading propaganda of indecent lifestlyle through FTL comms. 3. Corporations started getting power and Mathias Sobaseki blamed gallente in subsuming Caldari. 4. Federation found Caldari colonies outside of Federal space, managed by Caldari apolitical entities (Megacorporations, instead of gallente puppet democratic states on Caldari Prime) 5. U-nats took control in the Federation and after Caldari said that they won't accept democracies in these colonies, nationalists demanded complete transfer of the colonies to the Federation, despite that having independent colonies was legal at that time. 6. On this demand Caldari responded with immediate and effective secession from the Federation, forming independent Caldari State. 7. Federation launches a military campaign to blockade Caldari Prime - now belonging to seceded Caldari State. 8. Racism sparks on Caldari Prime from both sides - entrapped Gallente and Caldari alike. Atrocities are committed from both sides. 9. A partizan group known as Templis Dragonaur (unaffiliated with CEP of newly formed Caldari State) demolishes whole gallente city of Nouvelle Rouvenor. 10. Gallente respond with a bombardment of Caldari Prime for whole day. 11. Gallente invade Caldari Prime. 12. Invasion halts, but Caldari State decides to evacuate civilians from the planet to save them from gallente atrocities. 13. Gallente begin second invasion of Caldari Prime, as lifeless planet will disturb their economy. 14. Great Hero Tovil-Toba saves Caldari and forces the Federation into one year ceasefire. 15. Caldari evacuate war-torn planet. 16. War continues for 80 more years. 17. A peace is signed in YC12, Caldari Prime remains occupied by Gallente. 18. Caldari again in secrecy colonize Black Rise - a new region that was deemed unpassable by both Caldari and Gallente. 19. 10 June YC110 Tibus Heth finally liberates Caldari Prime and signs peace with Gallente. 20. After finding Caldari colonies in Black Rise the Gallente Federation begins new war campaign against Caldari State, now in peripheral regions. 21. YC115, in a violation of peace treaty of YC110, Gallente Federation invades Caldari Prime and occupies almost half of the planet.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Matar Ronin
2698
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 22:44:47 -
[395] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Okay, let me try it then.
1. Caldari Prime was coerced into joining the Federation. Nice to see you publicly admit that everything that follows number one happened because Caldari leadership was weak and foolish enough to be coerced into joining the Federation. The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when unelected corp leaders who might have been skilled at making money tried to play the role of interplanetary cultural experts/diplomats. If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2570
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 01:05:25 -
[396] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Okay, let me try it then.
1. Caldari Prime was coerced into joining the Federation. Nice to see you publicly admit that everything that follows number one happened because Caldari leadership was weak and foolish enough to be coerced into joining the Federation. The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when unelected corp leaders who might have been skilled at making money tried to play the role of interplanetary cultural experts/diplomats. If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?
Mr. Ronin, to be clear, from first contact the Caldari had always been a little ... well, stepped-on, by the Gallente. The Gallente found out there were people on Caldari Prime when the Caldari invented the radio, but it's not like they weren't really pretty far ahead of the Caldari at the time. The entity that headed the Gallentean mission to Caldari Prime was called the CDS, for "Cultural Deliverance Society," which really kind of says it all.
... and the Caldari have a really long memory.
Add in a Federation that they probably really did feel like they had no choice but to join, which was run as a democracy in which they were a permanent minority....
I'm told the Gallente learned a lot from their experience with the Caldari, but I do still see Matari complain about Gallentean attitudes towards you-- the condescension, the criticism of your most dearly-held customs, and so on. Consider, then, that back in the day they hadn't yet learned to be so tactful about it all. It culminated in what was arguably an attempt at genocide, and the exile of the Caldari from their homeworld, where their ancestors had lived and died.
It's not as simple as weakness and strength, heroes and villains. It's a storm of events and cultures and group identities and bitter resentment. To the Gallente, this might be ancient history, something to use to score rhetorical points but pretty much stuff that happened to other people long ago. To the Caldari, it's an unhealed wound, a grudge born out of decades and centuries of humiliation, verging in places on a blood feud.
Like I said, the Caldari have a long memory.
This maybe isn't a very good topic to try to beat Ms. Kim over the head with, Mr. Ronin. You'll have trouble making points the Gallente haven't already tried a few thousand times, but, also, and more to the point, she's not the only person you'll upset. If you're interested in finding a sympathetic ear for any cause you might have in the State, telling them their ancestors were weak is a really bad way to go about it. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
6714
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 02:59:26 -
[397] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Okay, let me try it then.
1. Caldari Prime was coerced into joining the Federation. Nice to see you publicly admit that everything that follows number one happened because Caldari leadership was weak and foolish enough to be coerced into joining the Federation. The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when unelected corp leaders who might have been skilled at making money tried to play the role of interplanetary cultural experts/diplomats. If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?
I guess you've never been part of a board meeting that elected a CEO. Also, guess who's ancestors weren't rescued by a foreign power?
That's right. My ancestors.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1537
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 03:27:22 -
[398] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Okay, let me try it then.
1. Caldari Prime was coerced into joining the Federation. Nice to see you publicly admit that everything that follows number one happened because Caldari leadership was weak and foolish enough to be coerced into joining the Federation. The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when unelected corp leaders who might have been skilled at making money tried to play the role of interplanetary cultural experts/diplomats. If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved? I guess you've never been part of a board meeting that elected a CEO. Also, guess who's ancestors weren't rescued by a foreign power? That's right. My ancestors.
Let us know when the Federation gives you back the rest of your homeworld. I'll take foreign aid over charity from our enemies any day. I'd also love to know how many died from that foreign power to free us. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2570
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 03:34:08 -
[399] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Okay, let me try it then.
1. Caldari Prime was coerced into joining the Federation. Nice to see you publicly admit that everything that follows number one happened because Caldari leadership was weak and foolish enough to be coerced into joining the Federation. The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when unelected corp leaders who might have been skilled at making money tried to play the role of interplanetary cultural experts/diplomats. If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved? I guess you've never been part of a board meeting that elected a CEO. Also, guess who's ancestors weren't rescued by a foreign power? That's right. My ancestors. Let us know when the Federation gives you back the rest of your homeworld. I'll take foreign aid over charity from our enemies any day. I'd also love to know how many died from that foreign power to free us.
Odds of Matari/Caldari meeting of minds: fading fast.
I should probably be happy about that. |
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1539
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 03:44:18 -
[400] - Quote
He started it.
We gained aid from a foreign power to fight one of their enemies. Lets be honest here, our own blood was spilled for our freedom. Whether the tools were marked with an eagle, a couple arches, or simply rust and blood is irrelevant to us carving our own destinies out of what once was. Someone should remember who's fight is closer to its end goal. I'm sure our ancestors can be proud either way. |
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
6714
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 04:14:26 -
[401] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:He started it.
We gained aid from a foreign power to fight one of their enemies. Lets be honest here, our own blood was spilled for our freedom. Whether the tools were marked with an eagle, a couple arches, or simply rust and blood is irrelevant to us carving our own destinies out of what once was. Someone should remember who's fight is closer to its end goal. I'm sure our ancestors can be proud either way. If you even remember who your ancestors are. Nobody took our culture from us. While we're at it, I didn't start it.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Matar Ronin
2704
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 04:19:26 -
[402] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Okay, let me try it then.
1. Caldari Prime was coerced into joining the Federation. Nice to see you publicly admit that everything that follows number one happened because Caldari leadership was weak and foolish enough to be coerced into joining the Federation. The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when unelected corp leaders who might have been skilled at making money tried to play the role of interplanetary cultural experts/diplomats. If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved? I guess you've never been part of a board meeting that elected a CEO. Also, guess who's ancestors weren't rescued by a foreign power? That's right. My ancestors. Pilot Tuulinen I'd rather have my ancestors rescued by a foreign power than duped by a foreign power. Based on the Caldari Amarr Alliance it is clearly a lesson your people have yet to learn.
But I take that back, it's not entirely true, the Amarr aren't duping the Caldari this time, they clearly have told you that their slavery based reclaiming will include you when they are strong enough to accomplish it. Looks like your Caldari leadership brokered a deal to give them time to gather that strength,brilliant!
The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when non-publicly elected corp leaders who might have been quite skilled at making money try to play the role of interplanetary military & cultural experts/diplomats. So again if only the Caldari had qualified people answerable to the general public making those key decisions, how many lives would be saved?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1540
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 04:27:38 -
[403] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deitra Vess wrote:He started it.
We gained aid from a foreign power to fight one of their enemies. Lets be honest here, our own blood was spilled for our freedom. Whether the tools were marked with an eagle, a couple arches, or simply rust and blood is irrelevant to us carving our own destinies out of what once was. Someone should remember who's fight is closer to its end goal. I'm sure our ancestors can be proud either way. If you even remember who your ancestors are. Nobody took our culture from us. While we're at it, I didn't start it. Human beings, not a tube. Same question back at you. And your absolutely right, we have more bonds than back then though we still hold parts of our own unique tribes. Ask Kim how that's going for her people under the state. I'm dropping the you started it thing since ya that was a miss call calling it on you. |
Matar Ronin
2704
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 04:33:16 -
[404] - Quote
So before this gets out of hand I will state for the record again in public, there is much I admire and respect about the Caldari people. I think they need a better class of ally. I do not wish the experience of my people on anyone else, certainly not the Caldari who bring and give so much to the entire New Eden Cluster.
I worry for your future because of our past.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2570
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 04:33:55 -
[405] - Quote
Probably I should be going and getting a bowl of popcorn about now.
Somehow I don't really feel like it, though. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
6717
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 05:17:15 -
[406] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:So before this gets out of hand I will state for the record again in public, there is much I admire and respect about the Caldari people. I think they need a better class of ally. I do not wish the experience of my people on anyone else, certainly not the Caldari who bring and give so much to the entire New Eden Cluster.
I worry for your future because of our past. I agree that there's cause for concern - like your people, though, we maintain an uncomfortable situation out of need. If the Gallente situation continues to calm down, perhaps unnatural alliances can be a thing of the past. I'd rather have four peaces than two alliances.
Ms Vess, you do know the tube isn't really my mother, right? If I chose, I could unseal my records and get that information. The Hall of Records has my full legacy on file, the Company knows precisely who I am.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1543
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 05:51:36 -
[407] - Quote
Yes I did know that. Though the fact you have to unseal your records and look proves my point... |
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
6718
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 06:30:00 -
[408] - Quote
Deitra Vess wrote:Yes I did know that. Though the fact you have to unseal your records and look proves my point... I respect the privacy of my progenitors. I may not know their names but the fact that their genes were used in so many batches tells you a lot. Besides, as a natural born friend of mine once said, it's a wise child that knows their own father.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1544
|
Posted - 2016.11.15 07:48:39 -
[409] - Quote
I do have to admit, that was a good answer. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Noticed.
2046
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 06:54:57 -
[410] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote: If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?
Corporate citizens are issued voting stocks based on position and length of service to the company. At quarterly or annual General Meetings they can vote on matters presented to them by the Executive Board. Dependent on corporate charter a measure presented that attracts significant, "No," vote usually set at 30% is considered as a, "Strike," against that Board. With three strikes against a board triggering a No Confidence leadership spill which dissolves the current Board and causes a shareholder election for a new Board.
A No Confidence motion against an Executive Board may also be put forward to vote by the owners of more than 30% of total shares to set in motion a general vote to dissolve a Board and re-elect a new one.
The most recent occurrence of such an act at a Megacorporate level was when the Executive Board of Kaalakiota placed the motion for a vote of No Confidence in Tibus Heth as CEO before the citizen-shareholders of Kaalakiota in YC 116 which was passed by the voting citizenry of Kaalakiota. [1]
Before implying political disenfranchisement in the State you might want to inform yourself on how corporate governance actually works among Caldari businesses, Mr. Ronin. |
|
Matar Ronin
2794
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 10:08:03 -
[411] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Matar Ronin wrote: If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?
Corporate citizens are issued voting stocks based on position and length of service to the company. At quarterly or annual General Meetings they can vote on matters presented to them by the Executive Board. Dependent on corporate charter a measure presented that attracts significant, "No," vote usually set at 30% is considered as a, "Strike," against that Board. With three strikes against a board triggering a No Confidence leadership spill which dissolves the current Board and causes a shareholder election for a new Board. A No Confidence motion against an Executive Board may also be put forward to vote by the owners of more than 30% of total shares to set in motion a general vote to dissolve a Board and re-elect a new one. The most recent occurrence of such an act at a Megacorporate level was when the Executive Board of Kaalakiota placed the motion for a vote of No Confidence in Tibus Heth as CEO before the citizen-shareholders of Kaalakiota in YC 115 which was passed by the voting citizenry of Kaalakiota. [1]Before implying political disenfranchisement in the State you might want to inform yourself on how corporate governance actually works among Caldari businesses, Mr. Ronin. Before you climb too high upon your self deluding high horse you might want to consider how many citizens of the Caldari State actually own voting stocks in any of the megacorps. Then you'd have to consider that the last time they elected officers were the pressing issues of war versus peace the issues that elevated the candidates towards the board? Since no two corps are ran the exact same way what were/are the specific terms upon which issues are presented to and then perhaps subsequently voted on by the board? I would venture that the vast majority of Caldari State citizens, who suffer in crushing poverty like tibus heth and the great Otro Gariushi did before climbing to power do not own voting stocks in all the megacorps so if you are lucky enough to own one stock from the big eight it has a diluted power compared to the other seven. That doesn't even take into consideration the mega stockholders who own large numbers of voting stocks who disenfranchise your vote in the corp you do have stock in.
So before you start shooting off your mouth about how corps operate consider the fact that I am a corp CEO and a small alliance CEO so I am well versed in how corps operate. That is not knowledge held secretly by the Caldari.
So you can either kindly present documented proof of what percentage of the Caldari population owns voting stocks in all the megacorps or be honest and admit you have no real idea and are only guessing and saying what sounds nice albeit a possible total fantasy Pilot Gesakaarin. Until you can do that my question is valid and still stands unanswered, Quote:If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Noticed.
2046
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 11:50:52 -
[412] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:So you can either kindly present documented proof of what percentage of the Caldari population owns voting stocks in all the megacorps or be honest and admit you have no real idea and are only guessing and saying what sounds nice albeit a possible total fantasy Pilot Gesakaarin. Until you can do that my question is valid and still stands unanswered, Quote:If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?
As an example, when Mens Reppola was voted into CEO of Ishukone he sought to:
"...call for the Ishukone board to encourage employee investment in the corporation, suggesting that they make two-thirds of the Ishukone shares in their hands (roughly 20% of the company's total shares) available for purchase by Ishukone employees. [1]
My point stands. Voting stocks are made available to corporate citizens, the manner in which they are made available varies between Megacorporations, and if citizens choose not to invest in their own company then by rights they should not have a say in choosing its direction.
Although I would say your mistake is in thinking that for the Caldari there exists a wildly held notion that political rights are inherent or universal -- they are not. They are earned in the State at an individual level through work and ability, if they wish involvement in corporate governance and affairs.
Besides, why should the general public as a whole ever have a say in favour of leaders who instead rise up through the ranks on their own merits?
The general public chose Tibus Heth five years ago, and he proved to be an idiot who almost bankrupted Kaalakiota because he had no experience or training in actually managing a company on the scale he was swept into. That's the kind of lunacy that occurs when populist mobs have power and not strong institutions -- forklift drivers become CEO's and nearly destroy a company that has existed for centuries.
So again, educate yourself you stooge.
|
Matar Ronin
2799
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 16:02:39 -
[413] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:So you can either kindly present documented proof of what percentage of the Caldari population owns voting stocks in all the megacorps or be honest and admit you have no real idea and are only guessing and saying what sounds nice albeit a possible total fantasy Pilot Gesakaarin. Until you can do that my question is valid and still stands unanswered, Quote:If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved? As an example, when Mens Reppola was voted into CEO of Ishukone he sought to: "...call for the Ishukone board to encourage employee investment in the corporation, suggesting that they make two-thirds of the Ishukone shares in their hands (roughly 20% of the company's total shares) available for purchase by Ishukone employees. [1]My point stands. Voting stocks are made available to corporate citizens, the manner in which they are made available varies between Megacorporations, and if citizens choose not to invest in their own company then by rights they should not have a say in choosing its direction. Although I would say your mistake is in thinking that for the Caldari there exists a wildly held notion that political rights are inherent or universal -- they are not. They are earned in the State at an individual level through work and ability, if they wish involvement in corporate governance and affairs. Besides, why should the general public as a whole ever have a say in favour of leaders who instead rise up through the ranks on their own merits? The general public chose Tibus Heth five years ago, and he proved to be an idiot who almost bankrupted Kaalakiota because he had no experience or training in actually managing a company on the scale he was swept into. That's the kind of lunacy that occurs when populist mobs have power and not strong institutions -- forklift drivers become CEO's and nearly destroy a company that has existed for centuries. So again, educate yourself you stooge. You are a poor example of a debater. You can't answer one basic question so you quickly resort to name calling. You have chosen to not try and win the discussion on merit and instead only put forth entertaining inaccurate posturing positions to reassure the status quo.
Honestly the facts are stacked against you so you had no real chance to prevail even if your intellectual skills had been more refined.
The question never was what Caldari citizens believe is a legitimate political process but what other process might have actually served their interests better! You missed the point and charged straight for the juvenile name calling instead.
When ever a person has a shut down in their ability to consider other possibilities beyond the historical record they impede their ability to see what might have been or even what could still come to be.
It seems you seek to argue that history is replete with Caldari State leadership making all the right choices because their system is perfect and as such can only produce perfect results. The monkey wrench of reality is that tibus heth rose to power via that Caldari System. There was no general election of all Caldari citizens that brought him to power. Thuggish power plays in the streets moved comfortably into Caldari boardrooms and tibus heth used the fundamental weakness of the Corp system to enact a violent hostile take over that cost countless lives and could have plunged the entire New Eden Cluster into open warfare.
You might feel comfortable skirting the facts you don't know but there absence nonetheless is very obvious.
What percentage of the general Caldari population own voting stocks in the eight megacorps?
What percentage of the general Caldari population own voting stocks in all eight megacorps?
How many other corps exist in the Caldari State that are way smaller then the megacorps and how do they make their corp voices heard in deciding issues that impact the entire state?
What percentage of voting stocks are held by a small number of wealthy investors giving them mega-voting power?
What percentage of the general Caldari population can afford to invest in voting stocks from corps other then where they work?
These are just a few of the questions you can't answer while making a feeble defense of what you clearly don't understand. Perhaps you might look up the definition of a "stooge" and then take a long hard look in the nearest mirror.
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2589
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 16:14:23 -
[414] - Quote
... *sigh*
So, Mr. Ronin? I know you don't normally listen to me when I say such things, but Veiki Gesakaarin is maybe another one of those people you don't want to successfully annoy.
She might be looking for a hobby. Just saying.
(Also, her comments about the competence of a population to rule itself are actually widespread sentiment in the State, and I'm not sure there's a compelling counter-argument. Why would anyone expect a bunch of laborers and technicians to be suited to deciding, or even choosing leaders to decide, questions of macroeconomics and foreign policy? It's amazing to me that the Federation's worked as well as it has for as long as it has.) |
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2147
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 16:17:44 -
[415] - Quote
Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies?
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2589
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 16:19:30 -
[416] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies?
I kind of hope so. It'd be better than watching it devolve into an endless insult match.
Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone? |
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2147
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 16:21:40 -
[417] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies? I kind of hope so. It'd be better than watching it devolve into an endless insult match. Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone? I was thinking of something along the lines of Aura's new voice....
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2592
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 16:49:32 -
[418] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies? I kind of hope so. It'd be better than watching it devolve into an endless insult match. Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone? I was thinking of something along the lines of Aura's new voice.... That just comes down to taste and aesthetics, though. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
352
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 17:08:17 -
[419] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies? This is a reasonable discussion with some good points being made, not every thread on the IGS should be about how other people need to be blocked, mad ravings of druggies and slapstick comedy. |
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
1557
|
Posted - 2016.11.16 18:20:42 -
[420] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone?
Do they wish to get their independence? Do they have the means to survive on their own with little to no help? Why not? They should be given that option, they should also fight for it if that's their wish. Not saying I believe they can take on the Federation alone so let's hope cooler heads prevail. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 [14] 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 24 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |