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Constant Start-Up Issues: Poor Practice

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:40:00 - [31] Originally by: JForce However if you had a dozen POSs to refuel and defend and manufacturing to deal with and things like that, you might expect to come on and play. And if you weren't able to, to be told in advance when they make changes that could go wrong. You where told about the rev 1.4 patch weren't you? Well there you have it, the server is ALWAYS unstable a a week or 2 after a patch. So you had your warning you just choose to ignore it. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Jim Pooley Cutting Edge Incorporated	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:41:00 - [32] Edited by: Jim Pooley on 22/03/2007 13:38:12 Originally by: Cadela Fria Yes well, just about everyone in EVE is a Systems admin, game developer, server manager and/or work with the same things CCP do, and somehow everyone always knows better then CCP. Atleast thats the same argument everytime - "Hi I'm joe schmoe and I'm computer smart in one field or another, so therefor I unquestionably know what I'm talking about - This means you can't tell me I'm wrong...that being said, CCP is all wrong about how they do things and should bow their heads in shame and follow my every word! BOW DOWN!" In an attempt to redress this balance, can I just point out I am not an expert in anything IT, programming, software related at all. So, I havent got a fecking clue what is wrong or how it can be done better. What I DO know however, is that Eve is great, beer is great too, and the two together are unpredictable but usually great also. (edit: for spelling) ------------------------------------------ Mines a Pint of Large
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:41:00 - [33] ill do a "double" Post with your Stuff! ------ Relaxed corp recruiting
Jian Blade	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:43:00 - [34] Originally by: Cadela Fria For some reason everybody is a darn expert and knows better then CCP these days. I can't speak for everyone but some of us a experts and probably do know better than CCP. However, they sure as hell can't afford me and I am happy to let them get on with fixing it
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:43:00 - [35] One big issue CCP has imo is the sheer size of the production environment which causes it's staging environment not to be an exact copy and therefor invalidates the whole staging environment or at least partly. Another thing at hand seems to be that the Database programmers have SA rights on the production environment, a comon issue as most sysadmins don't have sufficient DBA knowledge. This could be solved by training the sysadmins to have that knowledge or by introducing a true DBA who's only task it is to monitor the database programmers and code. Ow well always nice to type a lot of bla bla bla whilst making assumptions... hehehe ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed. My Top 10 List
BritBullet Antares Shipyards Galactic-Federation	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:45:00 - [36] It should be obvious that if the servers go down theres a chance it might not be up in time, it's common sense to put a long skill on and refuel before the server goes down.
Filatov Teg Rebirth Inc. Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:47:00 - [37] And for skills issue, when I see "Set a long skill" i heard "put a skill at least one week long" cause the stability souhld be chaotic some days after a patch. -------------------------------------- Ride on Shooting staaaaaaaarrrrrrrr!!!
Imiarr Timshae Roid Vandals	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:53:00 - [38] It is becoming more of a joke each day. I'm waiting for the "Patch day, set a long skill!" message to change to "Its DownTime day, set a long skill!". Wait a minuite... downtime happens every day! =( -Imiarr Timshae- Originally by: Nwalmaer Err, he has an Interceptor and I have lost 3 Crows catching Bships personally. Did I mention how much ass you all suck? -Pushing game mechanics since 04/03
RedooM Meed Caldari Chez Mamie Colette	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:05:00 - [39] Edited by: RedooM Meed on 22/03/2007 14:02:18 Listen good folks of Eve When I got in the game in mid 2004 at first I was complaining of issues in the game back then rofl and a player from beta and gave me this piece of wisdom concerning Eve Eve online is a bug and in the c r a c k s here is your game. It's sweet to see that nothing has changed since my first days when I was excited to fly a Merlin. Keep in mind folks that Eve is a big gaming experiment and a programmer challenge. The good news is that you are part of it. For better or worse you have chosen this game because bottom end we just love because it is very mentally challenging and we might need to forgive alot because of this. I vote 9 on 10 from last issues, guys up in Iceland and the server team in England are probably working their butts off to make it appen. Have a good one you all and fly safe.
Eis Bachs Lawless Industries Vis Major	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:06:00 - [40] OMG, hurry CCP my skill finishes in 13d 5h!!! Anyway. I think a lot of you are missing the OP's point. It's not that he expects everything to be perfect in the CCP environment. Its not that there will never be a problem, ever. It's more about the communication aspect of the problems than the problems themselves. And to all the folks that think CCP's environment is OMGUBERHOOOGE!!!!1111oneeleve. Get a grip. This is more medium sized than anything. Try working in an environment where death IS on the line. 911 service anyone? EB

w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:07:00 - [41] One would think, with the number of times theyre restarted the servers... Theyd be so well practised theyd be able to get it right. 5,4,3,2,1,5,4,3,2,1,5,4,3,2,1,5,4,3,2,1,5,4,3,2,1... Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
BritBullet Antares Shipyards Galactic-Federation	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:09:00 - [42] so change your skill when you log back on
fisty Aliastra	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:12:00 - [43] i dont think anyone gets the idea that any server downtime is for maintenance... Ciao
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:13:00 - [44] I'm in a server startup thread. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:14:00 - [45] Originally by: fisty i dont think anyone gets the idea that any server downtime is for maintenance... maintenance... and screwing with stuff. Its the screwing with stuff bit people would like to be notified about. Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
D2O HeavyWater Amarr Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:16:00 - [46] p1ss1n me off no end this twice ive come out of work to sneak a skill off this week n twice the servers dead. FFs why cant we set skills off via the website?? In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
Vampr3ss	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:19:00 - [47] this is bol**cks, this sort of thing is happening way to often,with no apology or anything. CCP SORT IT OUT
Liliane Woodhead	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:26:00 - [48] There is no life except Eve ------ Need for Feed. The Hamsters ------
Wyehr Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:47:00 - [49] First, the Tranquility server is unique. It is simply impossible to test certain things in any meaningful way because there is no way to simulate or replicate thirty thousand people interacting with it. Change management is great, but don't pretend that it will prevent or solve problems like this. Second, you can assume that downtime is used for tons of little activities that probably don't merit any mention to the community. By the time any given change gets interesting enough to mention, the people involved are probably far too busy fixing it to communicate beyond the "broken; fixing ASAP" level. [ 2007.03.18 18:45:59 ] (notify) Typhoon belonging to Gandolf self-destructs.
Ankanos Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:47:00 - [50] i'm here 3yrs+ -yeah i'm a private IT too..(big deal) overall... i'm still impressed with the quality of feedback CCP gives to its customers relative to any other company on the planet. -period. (granted prolly more than half the players in this game are techs of some sort and thrive if not demand being informed of pending techinal updates/issues but..) fwiw: i just got a pop-up news item while reading thru this thread (http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1399&tid=1 (from my firefox plugin via http://eve-downtime.com -tyvm) so yeah, they could do with giving us a heads up ahead of time, but hey.. they saw the thread, got a clue, and did what you asked.. CCP listens.. i really dont think you could ask for more from any company -you sure as hell don't get this kind of feedback from industry leaders like, um..Microsoft. better late than never, i say.. keep up the good work guys.. -ank ---

CmdrThor	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:50:00 - [51] EVE MotD: "A harddisk will die tomorrow 20 minutes after DT. Because of this, DT will be extended for 37 minutes while we replace the harddisk when it dies. No need to set long skills as we know exactly which HDD will die and thus can replace it immediately." I guess something like this is what all extended-DT-whiners would like, isn't it?
Maam	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:10:00 - [52] People are going well away from the point of the OP, so this will spiral and spiral into Yet Another Generic Whine Thread (tm). The OP's well made point, was just that the day before patch day CCP installed some unanounced servers into the mix, which went wrong and had to be backed out. All he is asking is that CCP mention this to us, so we can make contingency plans and be aware there may be issues. Dear players, we're adding some new servers onto TQ today. Uptime is still expected to be at 12:00, however be warned there is a greater chance of cluster startup problems than usual. That's all.
Jarphen Bard Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:14:00 - [53] Originally by: Maam People are going well away from the point of the OP, so this will spiral and spiral into Yet Another Generic Whine Thread (tm). The OP's well made point, was just that the day before patch day CCP installed some unanounced servers into the mix, which went wrong and had to be backed out. All he is asking is that CCP mention this to us, so we can make contingency plans and be aware there may be issues. Dear players, we're adding some new servers onto TQ today. Uptime is still expected to be at 12:00, however be warned there is a greater chance of cluster startup problems than usual. That's all. Unfortunately, a lot of the peeps on these threads are flaming to relieve the boredom of the DT and use the DT complaint threads as a baiting exercise. They feel that because they don't care, no-one else should. De motu corporum in gyrum
ToranagaSama	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:29:00 - [54] Originally by: JForce Of course as soon as I say the words "I work in I.T." I'm bound to be flamed. But I do And funnily enough I work in an area responsible for any changes, and the required release of that change, into the production environment. What I find unusual is the number of startup issues that occur due to changes made. Firstly, most are changes the community isn't told about. We know to set a long skill on patch day, and to be patient till it comes up. We know that it won't come up when you say it will. That is normal. However when you make changes, ANY changes to your production environment, you are taking a risk. And it seems to me that your risk-assessment procedures are poor at best. It's about managing expectations. We expect Tranquility to start up again at 12. Why? Because you haven't messed with it at all. If you're going to mess with it, in any way, then TELL US. That way we can expect to have an extended outage. I'm not going to comment on refunds etc, because updates are needed and outages happen. However CCP IMHO have poor change and release processes, and poor management of customer expectations around them. I don't work in I.T., but I know a little. Perhaps the costs are prohibitive for CCP, at this time, but don't you think they s/b running redundant servers; meaning dual/simultaneously running environments. One server goes down, the second remains up and running. Maybe there is a few seconds to minutes of changeover and, perhaps, some relatively intitial small loss of data (backed up and restorable), but ultimately work continues virtually uninterrupted. From my experience, this is not a hardware or software issue, nor, for the most part, not a cost issue, but rather a mindset issue. Within management it has to be acknowledged and accepted that 365/24/7 uninterrupted service is mandatory and normal, as opposed to being exceptional. Once past the "mindset" issues, then its down to meat on the bone----DESIGN, DESIGN, and DESIGN. Here's a quick story: My brother recently took a supervisory network position for a large manufacturer. A couple months ago, one of his Administrators proceeded to initiate a shutdown so that HE could do some maintenance. Yes, the maintenace was needed, but it wasn't necessary at that moment (nor any moment during the working day!). The network shutdown would have cause the shutdown of the manufacturing floor. Now, not only would that facility not be making product, but an entire workforce (save the IT guys) would have been twiddling their thumbs for the rest of the day. My brother caught the guy, BEFORE, he completed his dastardly deed, and it was all my brother could do to keep from slapping him!! The moral of the story is that the Administrator just didn't comprehend what his purpose was, who his master was, and how he and his job fit into the overall scheme of the company. In short, he had an extremely narrow focus---in trying to do his job, he was completely NOT doing his job. In my travels, I've come across this sort of mindset many times, and particularly in IT departments. If it isn't laid out, from the start, emphatically and specifically how IT fits into the scheme of the company's purpose, it just won't be there. I believe CCP exhibits some characteristics of this behavior and mindset. That network is their baby! --- I speak from personal experience in an industry where the network is NEVER allowed to go down and is NEVER taken down (I should say incredible rarely. Perhaps once a year.) There is simply toooooo much money at stake. Last time I think it was down was 9/11! This is why it irks me when CCP's service goes down. It's completely avoidable! Cost and Design are the only real issues. Given that CCP runs a very leading edge technology network----Cost and Design can be prohibitive. Given CCP's level of communiation with its customers, I'm surprised they don't talk about these issue more.
RedooM Meed Caldari Chez Mamie Colette	Posted - 2007.03.22 16:07:00 - [55] Edited by: RedooM Meed on 22/03/2007 16:14:38 Let's all get this straight We have one single server Some login are like 20k to 30k from all over the world in a single environment. Do you have any idea of the technical opposition there is out there? Logic will say there will be major burps and issues for the least. I am completely amazed from my mind and point point of view. CCP has achieved such an working effort so far and from the beginning of the game. From readings of the very beginning of Eve and issues they dealt with from the beginning I know they will. I know this game will get better. Skilling is awfull but they like it that way :( Fly safe you all.
XiticiX Gallente Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.03.22 16:19:00 - [56] I also work in I.T. for a major government health organization, and I can tell you we have 3 servers for EVERYTHING. Production, Training, and Testing. Testing is an exact duplicate of production, and is fed information every night from it. I can see how having a testing environment for EVE (which is an exact duplicate of Tranquility) would be difficult with the huge hardware demands the game requires, but I still think it's a NEED rather than a WANT. A few million dollars spent on a Test server would go a long way towards client satisfaction and reduce the number of headaches the developers and managers must suffer from after every patch. It's simple, basic practice to have a test server. And it should be done right. ~~~ This is my sig. Do you like it? ~~~
Ankanos Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.03.22 17:33:00 - [57] Originally by: XiticiX I can see how having a testing environment for EVE (which is an exact duplicate of Tranquility) would be difficult with the huge hardware demands the game requires, but I still think it's a NEED rather than a WANT. A few million dollars spent on a Test server would go a long way towards client satisfaction and reduce the number of headaches the developers and managers must suffer from after every patch. It's simple, basic practice to have a test server. And it should be done right. i would agree, but given that is just a game (yes it's a paid service and a business per se, but..) -it still is just a game.. as such..unless they are netting say, 600mil-1bil a year.. i cant see the expenditure worthwhile to appease a bunch of bratty kids (ok granted, Eve is probably the only game that has more adults than kids, but you get my point.) getting bent out of shape because your game server was delayed coming back up is just lain silly iho. -regardless if it is the only thing in your life that is keeping you sane.. -ank ---
XiticiX Gallente Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.03.22 19:01:00 - [58] Originally by: Ankanos Originally by: XiticiX I can see how having a testing environment for EVE (which is an exact duplicate of Tranquility) would be difficult with the huge hardware demands the game requires, but I still think it's a NEED rather than a WANT. A few million dollars spent on a Test server would go a long way towards client satisfaction and reduce the number of headaches the developers and managers must suffer from after every patch. It's simple, basic practice to have a test server. And it should be done right. i would agree, but given that is just a game (yes it's a paid service and a business per se, but..) -it still is just a game.. as such..unless they are netting say, 600mil-1bil a year.. i cant see the expenditure worthwhile to appease a bunch of bratty kids (ok granted, Eve is probably the only game that has more adults than kids, but you get my point.) getting bent out of shape because your game server was delayed coming back up is just lain silly iho. -regardless if it is the only thing in your life that is keeping you sane.. -ank Well, I guess my point goes further than just having minor issues after a patch. What if the patch horribly corrupts the database, and it's down for a couple days? Eve-Online is more than just a game. To CPP, it's their business, and their sole source of income atm. If they were really serious about being taken seriously as professionals, they would treat it as such. Hence, having NOT ONLY a secure backup strategy, but a standard testing strategy for rolling out changes. Change Management is huge in the I.T. world, and CCP isn't following it at all. There's a great quote my manager once told me: "'Seat of your pants' is not a management strategy." ~~~ This is my sig. Do you like it? ~~~


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