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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.20 01:27:00 -
[1]
Excellent Dev Blog.
Couple of questiosn though:
Policing:
While it is all well and good to suggest that players police themselves (and as 0.0 shows it can be quite effective making it safer than having COONCORD around) how do you really see players managing this in 0.1 - 0.4 systems? There simply are no tools for effective policing. Taking a sec hit means the player "police" will nerf their sec status in no time unless you think you can effectively police an area but not be able to shoot first.
Likewise with missioners/ratters. Pirate(s) comes waltzing into my area while I am being jumped by 12 rats who may well have me webbed and scrambled AND I cannot even shoot at the pirate first (maybe I have the warp in point at my optimal when they come in) without a sec hit. There really is no choice but to run (if possible).
We all know PvP > PvE setups.
So, in order to access low sec missions I need to get a gang of 5-10 mates together, nerf our sec status to hell chasing pirates for an hour or two, get in my mission ship and go do the mission while everyone else guards me?
Besides, chasing pirates off is about as useful as chasing gnats off around Lake Mēvatn. Sure you can disperse them a bit but they are back thicker and worse than ever in no time.
ISK vs. Loot:
Not so sure changing up how people are "paid" for missioning is a good change. I can appreciate that the amount of money a player can net via a combat mission is absurd. I do combat missions, I benefit from the ISK coming in and I still think it is over the top. Bounties + reward + LP + loot (refine and sell) + salvage is too much.
But if you take away ISK and replace it with loot you are just tanking the market worse. There are a lot of people out there who build T1 stuff and now it will be flooded with junk from missioners? You will make it very difficult for T1 builders to find it worth building anything.
I honestly think the flip side to your proposal would make more sense. Nerf rat droppings sharply (leave salvage as is). Make missioning a mostly ISK only deal. There can be some loot drops but not much and far less than today. This would leave the mod and mineral markets in the players' hands where it should be. Miners provide the bulk of minerals and builders provide the bulk of mods and missioners buy it all.
Yes this would mean inflating the market but it will find its balance just fine...one of the neat things about EVE and its cool market driven economy.
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.20 02:09:00 -
[2]
Forgot...
As others have said get rid of static complexes already. Make them part of Exploration and move them around.
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.20 03:53:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Gamer4liff
Oveur, could you please elaborate what exactly is to become of courier missions, and will there be big enough loads to warrant using a freighter under the new system?
Using a Freighter for courier missions! 
Man, bad enough in a hauler. If the rewards were hugely substantial maybe...
But wait, it gets worse!
- Imagine the collateral you'd need for a Freighter run! Would be astronomical.
- L5 missions will be low sec only. A freighter is a death trap in low sec. You'd absolutely need a several ship guard to run such missions and even then. Not only are you risking a 900 million ship you are liable to lose several hundred million in collateral if it goes *boom*.
As someone who hauls a lot (note my name) I can appreciate having some nifty courier missions but as things stand no WAY would I touch a low sec courier mission that required a freighter without staggeringly good rewards available.
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.20 11:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Humpalot on 20/03/2007 12:01:16
Originally by: Venkul Mul
 We are playing the same game?
" Bounties + reward + LP + loot (refine and sell) + salvage is too much."
In what universe or using wath kind of ship set up?
Mining in hig sec I can get from 7 to 10 millions hour, with little risk.
As mission running has higher risk (not much, but higher) and higher costs I want a better return. That is rarely seen in missions today (and most of the LP rewards are abmyssal, with a return lower than 1000 isk for LP, so the 3-5000 LP for a mission are 3-5 millions).
In a good L4 mission I can make more than 7-10 million an hour. Granted not always but a few days ago I got an implant drop that sold for 65 million (and this was a hi sec mission). Obviously that is rare but when you add in the occasional good loot drop plus everything else missioning can be quite profitable. I mine plenty and while my assessment is it is a more steady income stream missioning is overall more profitable as it stands (versus hi sec mining) as well as a helluva lot more fun. Kind of a no brainer choice.
As for LP it may not amount to much but it is part of the reward. If CCP implements an LP store rather than the random offers it is today LP will become more useful.
As for risk versus reward c'mon. Dunno about you but I haven't lost a ship to NPC rats in ages. Further, miners have to deal with NPCs too and in a Covetor that can't tank for anything NPCs can be a real risk. Add in ore thieves and suicide gankers mining even in hi sec is not start your lasers and go to bed. If you are at war (and Privateers are doing their level best to have all of Empire war decced) then mining becomes FAR more dangerous than running missions (as at least as a mission runner you are in a combat ship...granted PvE setup vs. PvP but better than a barge...and harder to find in your mission area).
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.20 17:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
The it only that our definition of "insane" rewards is different. Getting 10-15 millions/hour all included (20 when getting the very good missions) and risking the loss of a ship don't seem an "insane" difference from getting 7-10 millions mining semi-afk.
I guess I just come from a different mindset. When I started EVE earning enough for a cruiser was a big deal. Getting a battleship was a matter of a month (or more) of grinding. Nowadays you can fly a cruiser practically out of the box and afford a battleship with one good day's work (heck, if you are in 0.0 two hours of mining could do it not to mention running one 10/10 plex).
I appreciate that the "old" way was maybe too hard and the loss of a battleship too steep to encourage people to really want to fight (this was before insurance too) but still...maybe went too far the other way. I dunno.
All I am really on about is that they should nerf rat droppings (still have them...just not as much) and leave the minerals to come mostly from miners (and not scrap) and mods to come from builders (and not unloaded dirt cheap from a million rat drops).
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.20 20:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Swedde
Again you are nerfing the game for real 0.0 PvP players and making it easier for carebears to make more isk's..
I think this generally is a pretty ****ty idea!
Kinda curious how you think 0.0 is getting nerfed. 0.0 still has the best ore, the best rats, the best (and static!) plexes and is generally safer than most of Empire because players can effectively police themselves.
Where is their nerf again?
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.20 23:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Juntos
Originally by: Venkul Mul
I guess I just come from a different mindset. When I started EVE earning enough for a cruiser was a big deal. Getting a battleship was a matter of a month (or more) of grinding. Nowadays you can fly a cruiser practically out of the box and afford a battleship with one good day's work (heck, if you are in 0.0 two hours of mining could do it not to mention running one 10/10 plex).
I appreciate that the "old" way was maybe too hard and the loss of a battleship too steep to encourage people to really want to fight (this was before insurance too) but still...maybe went too far the other way. I dunno.
All I am really on about is that they should nerf rat droppings (still have them...just not as much) and leave the minerals to come mostly from miners (and not scrap) and mods to come from builders (and not unloaded dirt cheap from a million rat drops).
lol, it takes me about 3 weeks to replace a BS, maybe you have more time to play than I do :)
Actually that was a quote from me in reply to Venkul Mul.
Let's say a battleship costs 100 mil on average (can be more or less I know).
With a good mining ship (barge and strips) making 7-10 mil in hi sec mining is entirely doable. That is 12 hours of mining (give or take) to a new battleship. If it takes you 3 weeks to play 12 hours then so be it but 12 hours is rather quick game time wise for a new battleship. If you are still mining out of your Ibis with civvie mining lasers then yeah...will take quite a long time.
If you mission in hi sec with a L4 agent you can manage it in anywhere from 1-10 missions depending how lucky you get on the drops.
If you live in 0.0 you can mine yourself into a battleship with a bit more than a hour of work. Run a 10/10 plex and you can net yourself enough for a battleship with ease. Rat in 0.0 maybe several hours depending on the spawns you catch.
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.21 01:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Juntos
stuff
I am quite aware that the cost for a battleship with fittings goes far beyond the cost of the battleship itself. I was just pointing out the speed with which ISK can be made. I just did a calc on my Omber mining (hi sec) income and it is just shy of 10 mil per hour at current prices. You can extrapolate from there (or figure your hourly on ratting or missioning or whatever).
As for the rest you are preaching to the choir here. I agree that as things stand it is near absurd to expect missioners to risk T2/Faction fitted ships in low sec. There simply are too many imbalances (see my previous posts) that stack the odds against the missioner/ratter/miner to be bothered with low sec.
"But, but, but us pirates have nearly no chance of probing out missioners!" some may say? Let's look at that one.
Let's say the priate looking for your mission ship has a 2.5% (commonly given number for this is 3% with good skills so I nerfed it a bit for not perfect skills) chance per scan to find you. 2.5% is pretty bad huh? Of course they can scan every 30 seconds or so and each time they mash the button they roll the dice again.
If you do the probability calculation on that and say that 30 attempts are made against the missioner the chances that the pirate will get a hit increases to 53.2%. Starting to not look so good for the missioner (note it matters not if it is one person scanning 30 times or 30 people on 30 different days scanning once...chances are better than 1-in-2 that the missioner will get found).
As the pirate you may be thinking that scanning 30 times is crap but realize if the missioner has drones out you get a dice roll on each of those. Group missions (which L5 and up are likely to require)? Multiple people in the mission area each are a dice roll. Have more than one person scanning...chances go up. At the outside it is 15 minutes for a 1-in-2 chance and all too easy to improve on that.
Add to that when the pirate shows I am almost certainly screwed and the bottom line is, "No thanks."
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.21 15:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Delila Umatar
The player survey/census idea is a good one. Let's poll the feelings of more than just the blog readers and forum posters.
I'm not so sure about this. While on the face of it this seems a neat idea the results you may expect of it are not all that reliable. Some people will care enough to fill it out carefully, others will breeze through it with barely a thought. Further, as can be seen on these forums, people tend to vote for what suits them rather than thinking about the game in a more holistic manner (i.e. in some instances it is possible to know something is better for the game overall even if it is not directly in your own best interests).
EVE is not and should not be run by committee. Those always tend to bland things out till there is nothing anyone really likes. The Devs took chances with EVE that no other game company has (such as steep death penalties). This means they do not pander to the masses just to get 10 million subscribers but rather created a truly unique gaming environment and those who play here are, by and large, passionate about it.
In the end the Devs have their vision of what they want EVE to be and so far have done a great job creating this most complex of all MMOs. Listening to the player base is certainly worthwhile but while they should take that into account it should be left to them to guide EVE toward the vision they have always had for it.
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