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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.23 08:59:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: CCP Abathur
Excellent list. I'll be sure to annoy many people about it. Especially Tux. 
I took the liberty to add two more issues to the list, 4e. and 4f.
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Flaming Candle
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Posted - 2007.03.23 13:24:00 -
[32]
There appears to be no "open fittings" r-click menu item at a carrier (Don't know about MSs). You can fly to a ship maint. array, open the fittings there, then fly to a carrier and fit your ship there. I can't get in-game to test the hot key.
Originally by: Tuxford
It was a dirty hack to be honest but we couldn't find anyway around it. I hope we never have to do it again.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.23 13:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Flaming Candle
There appears to be no "open fittings" r-click menu item at a carrier (Don't know about MSs). You can fly to a ship maint. array, open the fittings there, then fly to a carrier and fit your ship there. I can't get in-game to test the hot key.
Ctrl + Shift + F
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Chewan Mesa
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.23 16:41:00 -
[34]
A lot of your points apply to carriers and I can wholeheartly agree.
/Signed.
Btw, whats this about with changes on SiSi?
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Flaming Candle
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Posted - 2007.03.23 18:35:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
Originally by: Flaming Candle
...I can't get in-game to test the hot key.
Ctrl + Shift + F
Another thing that I forgot to add: whenever something changes the contents or staching in the corporate hanger array (CHA), the shields, armour, and structure go to 0, then build up (quickly) to their actual values. when a large transfer happens in the CHA, the same build-up happens, and frequenty, the whole screen freezes and goes black for a second or two.
It seems that the UI is refreshing from the server for each update (even if you can't see the contents of the CHA) which is laggy and probably unnecissary. Where an update is one module/stack of modules moving around in the CHA.
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Ange1
Gallente
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2007.03.23 20:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Callistus
Fighters cannot be delegated while inside a pos force field, however you can delegate them while outside a pos and then move back inside the force field and they continue to work as normal.
Surely this defeats the whole point 
The Establishment is at your service...
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Callistus
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.26 12:31:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ange1
Originally by: Callistus
Fighters cannot be delegated while inside a pos force field, however you can delegate them while outside a pos and then move back inside the force field and they continue to work as normal.
Surely this defeats the whole point
Pretty much, yeah
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[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
Hippo117
Caldari
Wings of Redemption
Black Flag Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.26 18:28:00 -
[38]
/signed
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Obligulatory 'opinion does not nescessarily represent those of my corp/alliance' stuff here. |
Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar
Provenance.
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Posted - 2007.03.27 05:29:00 -
[39]
Quote:
The very least that one should do to hold a supercapital, is bring an almost equal amount of assets into the fight.
This is not how many other ship type in the game works from a price/performance ratio, yet it should work this way for supercapitals... because? Probably because you just got one 2 weeks ago, I suspect.
Putting money into a ship has always been at diminishing marginal benefit. Supercapitals are broken right now because that's not how they work. ANY ship type should be killable with 1/2 or less of its value in smaller, more numerous ships.
I can't believe there really exist people who can say with a straight face that any supercapital is too easy to pin down, but it is hilarious.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.27 07:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Vidar Kentoran
Quote:
The very least that one should do to hold a supercapital, is bring an almost equal amount of assets into the fight.
This is not how many other ship type in the game works from a price/performance ratio, yet it should work this way for supercapitals... because?
You just answered your own question right there. In case of supercapitals labor is a sizeable part of what you define as "the price", if not the biggest.
A battleship can be constructed overnight, cruisers while you're waiting. A capital takes a week and a few days, but constructing a supercapital from scratch takes up to 3 months easily (6 months for a titan). In other words, your classical definition of the price/performance ratio is outdated.
Quote:
I can't believe there really exist people who can say with a straight face that any supercapital is too easy to pin down, but it is hilarious.
We can argue here all night, so I'll just let reality speak for itself: The Nyx that went down a few days ago -in combat- went poof in merely 60 seconds. 60 seconds in which someone's work for the past 1/4 year and ISK has been nullified.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.02 13:38:00 -
[41]
*cough* patch 1.4.1 *cough*
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.02 21:15:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
The answer to your question lies within your question. In case of supercapitals labor may very well be considered a new factor in the equation. Cost is no longer defined by ISK for the most part but also by time and effort spent, the latter 2 being responsible for the 100%+ markup on supercapital prices.
You are answering your question yourself as well, the effect of labor is already included in the high supercapital markup. Does not change the issue at all.
Quote:
We can argue here all night, so I'll just let reality speak for itself: The Nyx that went down a few days ago -in combat- went poof in merely 60 seconds.
Time to kill != difficulty to pin down.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 09:51:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 03/04/2007 10:01:25
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
The answer to your question lies within your question. In case of supercapitals labor may very well be considered a new factor in the equation. Cost is no longer defined by ISK for the most part but also by time and effort spent, the latter 2 being responsible for the 100%+ markup on supercapital prices.
You are answering your question yourself as well, the effect of labor is already included in the high supercapital markup. Does not change the issue at all.
Assuming you're referring to Vidar Kentoran's comment, bringing ships worth 1/2 of 30 bil is already a big leap forward compared to 1/2 of 15 bil and does more justice to the amount of work put into the supercapital. I don't think he was talking about the market value, but rather the mineral value. If he wasn't, then I withdraw my reply to his.
Quote:
Quote:
We can argue here all night, so I'll just let reality speak for itself: The Nyx that went down a few days ago -in combat- went poof in merely 60 seconds.
Time to kill != difficulty to pin down.
Pinning it down took us 1 jump-in bump by a supercapital, which took about as long as 1 CPU query takes.
Before you quote me on that, I think bumping by a supercapital is OK. That is, under current game mechanics. In this instance we brought 5 supercapitals and 20 normal ones.
I do not consider bumping to be a pretty or sound tactic, but it's currently one of the very few valid and viable means we have at our disposal as players. I'd rather see something like a capital warp scrambler and capital jump scrambler that can only be fitted on supercapitals, or something in that direction. Something that feels more like an 'official' means and which can be better controlled, while not making it necessarily easier.
Bumping a supercapital in a 10,000 isk shuttle, or even a battleship is not OK, under any circumstances.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.03 12:13:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
Assuming you're referring to Vidar Kentoran's question, bringing ships worth 1/2 of 30 bil is already a big leap forward compared to 1/2 of 15 bil and does more justice to the amount of work put into the supercapital. I assumed he was talking about the mineral value rather than the market value. If he wasn't, then I withdraw my reply to his.
I doubt he was referring to the mineral value, that would be just silly.
I mean, if you would compare ships that way then a t1 battlecruiser would be "equal" to 2-3 curses, for example 
What you destroy/risk is always the market value of an item, even if you produced/found it yourself.
Quote:
Pinning it down took us 1 jump-in bump by a supercapital, which took about as long as 1 CPU query takes.
...
The flaws of bumping, plus the motherships inherent weakness of fending off a zergling rush of dozens of t1 ships whose sum worth is less than 100 mil is what's wrong here.
But then you are still saying that you need multiple times the value of a supercapital in the open to kill another supercapital.
Just the bumping supercapital vs the killed supercapital is already an equal amount of money invested on both sides. And that single supercap would never have been able to stop the killed supercap from warping long enough to kill it on it's own.
If they introduce "capital" warp scrambler they would have to be generally capital class items, not only supercapital. A single t1 cruiser surely can scramble a single t1 battleship (and costs between 3-10% of it), however it sure as hell won't be able to kill it on it's own (outside using specialized EW).
I do not see how this is in any way different for a normal capital vs a supercapital. It's also 3-6% of it's price (well, vs motherships at least) and will die on it's own vs one.
And for the "inherent weakness of fending off a zergling rush of dozens of t1 ships whose sum worth is less than 100 mil" - it does not exist. One word: smartbombs.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 12:21:00 -
[45]
Capital scramblers that can be fitted on normal capitals could work too, but then supercapitals need a base warpcore strenght since it's silly to fit warpcorestabs on them. Let's say a mothership has 10 strenght and a titan has 20, and each scrambler having -1 strenght?
Quote:
And for the "inherent weakness of fending off a zergling rush of dozens of t1 ships whose sum worth is less than 100 mil" - it does not exist. One word: smartbombs.
I edited my post before you replied, it says t1 plated cruisers now since I'm well aware of smartbombs, and sending in 1 plated cruiser (5k HP easily possible) at a time will pin down a supercapital.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 12:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Aramendel
I doubt he was referring to the mineral value, that would be just silly. I mean, if you would compare ships that way then a t1 battlecruiser would be "equal" to 2-3 curses, for example
Imagine you fend off an attack and the 10 attacking capitals die. 10 capitals are ~10-20b. If they have the ISK, they can easily replace them within 12 days
Now imagine you fail at fending off the attack and die. Your MS without the mods is worth 30b+. Even if you have the ISK, it can easily take 4 months for you to get a replacement, possibly longer.
So while they bring in an almost equal amount of ISK to the battiefield, the supercapital pilot is risking to go through a whole lot more of time/effort to acquire a new one if he loses his ship. This aspect is something that definitely sets apart the supercapitals from any of the other ship classes, which for the most part can be ordered overnight.
I'm guessing it's because the supercapital market is still fairly young and since not many supercapitals have died yet, supply can still fairly well keep up with demand which explains the fairly modest markup on motherships currently.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.03 13:53:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Aramendel on 03/04/2007 13:55:19
Edited by: Aramendel on 03/04/2007 13:51:25
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
Imagine you fend off an attack and the 10 attacking capitals die. 10 capitals are ~10-20b. If they have the ISK, they can easily replace them within 12 days
It's not in any way different with other ships. If you suicide 10 frigs on a BS you can literary replace the frigs in *minutes*. It takes you 10-20 times as long to replace the BS, both in time getting the isk/mins and in building.
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
I edited my post before you replied, it says t1 plated cruisers now since I'm well aware of smartbombs, and sending in 1 plated cruiser (5k HP easily possible) at a time will pin down a supercapital.
They will last less than a minute. Fighters hit cruisers very well.
And, again, not different for other classes. A 500k frigate can pin down a 150 mil BS.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 14:12:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 03/04/2007 14:10:27
Originally by: Aramendel
Fighters hit cruisers very well.
Yes and how long you reckon it takes to lock a cruiser? Then add the time the fighters need to go into orbit, settle down from MWD and actually start hitting.
Quote:
And, again, not different for other classes. A 500k frigate can pin down a 150 mil BS.
Yep, flawed as well. It's just becomes abundantly clear in the example of a supercapital.
Also, having to wait 4 hours for a ship to complete instead of 10 minutes is still of an entire different magnitude than 3 months instead of 11 days.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 14:16:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 03/04/2007 14:12:53
Originally by: Aramendel
And it doesn't takes 4 months to replace it. I've seen in this year at least two mothership auctions for each race from trusted sellers here and I wasn't particulary looking for them.
You just proved my point there.
If I was to look for a replacement Nyx, I'd have a new one after an average of 6 months or so.
I have been looking for a Nyx the past year and have seen about 2-3 myself up for sale.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.03 14:17:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Aramendel on 03/04/2007 14:15:26
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
Yep, flawed as well. It's just becomes abundantly clear in the example of a supercapital.
It isn't flawed, it's just the way eve is. A multi player game.
If you spend the time & effort to get 10 players together they can destroy assets of a single player which FAR outweight their invested assets.
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
If I was to look for a replacement Nyx, I'd have a new one after an average of 6 months or so.
Read again, I said this year. Aka the last 3 months. Not the last year.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 14:20:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 03/04/2007 14:17:29
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
Yep, flawed as well. It's just becomes abundantly clear in the example of a supercapital.
It isn't flawed, it's just the way eve is. A multi player game.
If you spend the time & effort to get 10 players together they can destroy assets of a single player which FAR outweight their invested assets.
Okay, let's say you have 10 level 20 players. They can not defeat 1 level 60 player in any game. Even if they were level 40, they still would have to go through hell to defeat a level 60. Frigs are pretty much down the latter in terms of skills and isk, so let's say the WoW equivalent of frigs would be a level 10 character. Now why would they suddenly be able to pin down a level 60? 
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.03 14:35:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Aramendel on 03/04/2007 14:31:26
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
Okay, let's say you have 10 level 20 players. They can not defeat 1 level 60 player in any game.
10 1 month players in frigates can defeat a 1 year player in a battleship in eve.
This it what makes the game special, amongst other reasons.
Quote:
Find me 1 Hel auction in the last 3 months, heck the past 12 months and I'll give you this one :)
I won't waste my time to look through one zillion pages in the sell order forum, but I was following a thread a few months ago where on of the major producer was selling 1 of each motherships, hel included. IIRC all but the Nxy were bought for the minimum bid price (25 bil) while the nyx went for 35 bil.
Believe it or not *shrugs*
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john roe
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:20:00 -
[53]
*signed*, *signed*, *signed*... and *signed*.
it takes to be a real man to fly mothership these days, ccp.
seriously. and i'm not even talking about iskies you're risking, but bugs you're fighting with on each step.
and these drones bugs? drones lags? make me to want to murder
every drone of mine, seriously.
please, fix carriers/MSs, ccp.
we'll love you long time for that :]
adieu
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:22:00 -
[54]
4.b updated and 4.g added
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2007.04.07 09:52:00 -
[55]
Aeon, please continue to update this thread as you find the time. It is being watched and we appreciate the effort. Be aware though that some of the issues you list, while they may seem minor, would actually require a bit of programming time. This especially applies to any changes in the UI.
You won't see everything fixed at once but the problems are known and being worked as programming time becomes available. (And, no, it has nothing to do with walking in stations. That's a whole other group of people.)
Those of you with suggestions and experience should use the OP's format and attention here as an example. 
"Tux did it!" |
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Lefevre
Caldari
Temptation inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.07 11:31:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Lefevre on 07/04/2007 11:27:44
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 03/04/2007 17:20:11
- 4. Not a mothership specific, but fighters really need some <3
When your fighters come back from a fight and you tell them to return to dronebay and then warp off, they will stop doing anything and just sit there until you either warp back or assign the fighters to someone else. And there's no telling what the drones are doing; they still tell you they are following even when they are not.
- Fighters still return to you at orbit velocity speed instead of MWD.
If you engage a target at 120 km with fighters but abort and tell them to return, they are going to need 8 minutes for the return trip.
-> Workaround: Jettison a can and have the fighters attack it to trigger the MWD.
These are probably the two things that annoy me the most as a carrier pilot.. Although we have the work around with attacking a jettisoned can or a friendly ship close to you it's not always something that works while you are under fire and need to scoop those drones as soon as possible.
This goes for more drones then just fighters.. heavy drones/medium/light would also be a lot more fun to use if they would mwd back to your ship.
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Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.04.07 11:57:00 -
[57]
RE. 2) If you go to the escape-menu and click "quit game" there instead of ctrl-q'ing or hitting the little 'x' in the top right of the window to log off, it should save the drone settings. At least this is my experience. :)
RE. 8) This is now possible, you can drag modules from the corp hangar onto the new fitting screen. \o/
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.07 12:05:00 -
[58]
An idea for the "anti-capital" side of things, and holding the targets down, may be a capital sized warp scrambler, that can only be fit on motherships and only works on other capital ships?
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.07 12:46:00 -
[59]
I personally think the only thing that seems really wrong with the arguments here is the inability to tackle a mothership. The fact that we are relying upon bumping as the only real method of tackling a mothership highlights their battlefield dominance.
On the other hand; the idea of a cruiser being able to lock down a mothership is ludicrous. Aeon also raises the point of economics and the cost of losing a mother ship. Sorry, but that holds no water for me as you are immune to ewar. That is a tremendous advantage and you know it.
As for the bumping - Mr Smartbomb will take care of the bumping ships for you. Even a battleship will eventually die to smartbombs.
I think Dianobolic's idea of a capital class scrambler seems appropriate. (I cannot believe I am agreeing with BOB here.) But if a dreadnaught in siege mode can scramble a super-capital then all of a sudden we have a real fight on our hands. That mothership knows the dread must die for it to escape. The trick here is to make sure the mothership KNOWS who is scrambling him.
The basic rule of Eve seems to be that no ship should be invulnerable by itself. A mothership at the moment breaks the rule. The rest of the requested changes are user interface changes and I don't know enough about them to comment.
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HordeZla
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.04.07 18:30:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gragnor
I personally think the only thing that seems really wrong with the arguments here is the inability to tackle a mothership. The fact that we are relying upon bumping as the only real method of tackling a mothership highlights their battlefield dominance.
On the other hand; the idea of a cruiser being able to lock down a mothership is ludicrous. Aeon also raises the point of economics and the cost of losing a mother ship. Sorry, but that holds no water for me as you are immune to ewar. That is a tremendous advantage and you know it.
As for the bumping - Mr Smartbomb will take care of the bumping ships for you. Even a battleship will eventually die to smartbombs.
I think Dianobolic's idea of a capital class scrambler seems appropriate. (I cannot believe I am agreeing with BOB here.) But if a dreadnaught in siege mode can scramble a super-capital then all of a sudden we have a real fight on our hands. That mothership knows the dread must die for it to escape. The trick here is to make sure the mothership KNOWS who is scrambling him.
The basic rule of Eve seems to be that no ship should be invulnerable by itself. A mothership at the moment breaks the rule. The rest of the requested changes are user interface changes and I don't know enough about them to comment.
Dude I am going to resist the temptation to smack you and point out that we killed a Mothership within a minuit......It's not hard, it just takes planning, skills and the manpower to do it.....There is nothing wrong with mothership not been able to be warp scrambled.
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