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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.21 01:57:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 21/03/2007 02:04:37
I only got my Nyx for less than two weeks now but already I think the motherships could use a tweak or two, or nine. Here's a list of things I think are important to get fixed rather sooner than later. Or rather late than never 
- 1. Remove the right-click Board Ship interface entry, especially as its being the very first option but the last thing you would want to do!
While I haven't had the privilege yet of misclicking while scooping empty ships, it damn sure almost happened twice now, the last time with me being inside an enemy POS scooping ships (I was given the forcefield password)
Self destruct and Eject have been given the idiotproof treatment already, and furthermore Supercapital pilots aren't likely to be boarding ships a lot so please make clicking Board Ship pop up a confirmation dialog window. The thought itself of one such fatal misclick is creeping me out already.
- 2. Motherships (Nyx confirmed) do not remember changes to drone folders upon exiting the client.
As it is now, every change (move drone to drone group, remove, or delete drone group) you make to your drone groups is not saved upon client exit, presumably due to an issue with the client overwriting/reverting/corrupting your drone settings when quiting. A workaround to saving your drone group settings involves setting the EVE/cache folder to read-only just prior to client termination, then setting the folder back to read and write. You may have to do this twice. Other Nyx pilots I have talked to about this can confirm this being a bug.
(Bug report has been submitted)
- 3. Optimize the drones overview.
- Make drone entries smaller in height, just like the 1.4 revision of the contracts system. Having to keep an eye on 20 drones in space while also having your Drones in bay opened is practically impossible, even on a 22" widescreen. And that's with the main overview minimized
- Allow drone subgroups. A mothership pilot can easily have 15 different drone groups which clutters up the overview. Instead of 15 drone groups, you could have 4 main ones (Fighters, Drones, EW, Logistic), with for example the fighters being sorted in their respective subgroup within the main Fighter group
- Allow to sort drones by names.
Try picking out the heavy drones here at first glance. Related to 3b: Fighters and Sentries haven't even been grouped by race yet in the picture.
- 4. Not a mothership specific, but fighters really need some <3
- If your fighters come back from a fight and you tell them to return to dronebay and then warp off, they will stop doing anything and sit there until you either warp back or assign the fighters to someone else.
- Fighters still return to you at orbit velocity speed instead of MWD.
- Give us the choise to set our fighters to Do not follow when a target warps off. Even when you recall your fighters right after your target warps, it can still take several minutes before they return, leaving your mothership practically droneless for the time being. Ofcourse you can choose to use heavy drones instead, but those only work up to 45 km (there's more important mods to fit than drone links) and above 45km your ability to kill is basically depending on other people's misjudgement. If you engage a target at 120 km with fighters, they are going to need 8 minutes for the return trip.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia |
Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 01:57:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 21/03/2007 02:02:15
- 5. Nerf bumping.
If you dive your spaceshuttle straight ahead at a 90 degrees angle into the earth's atmosphere, the first thing that happens is you die. If you scratch the atmosphere at a low angle, you bounce off: the earth does not move much at all.
A frigate is of an entirely different magnitude, in terms of proportions and mass than a mothership, yet with decent skills it is possible to keep a mothership from warping. The counter to this are ofcourse smartbombs (which do not work at a station or gate), but this doesn't fix the problem however. A nanod battleship that's being remote repped by a carrier or two will have no trouble keeping you in place for at least a minute, until the next nano BS comes around. If this part of the game was any realistic, the BS would burn up in the shields and cause 40k of explosion damage. (This might be a bit problematic in empire tho  ) So at least make it so that bumping has a minimal effect when done by by sub-capital ships.
- 6. Allow us to view cargo's of ships within the ship hangar bay.
This would allow mothership pilots to prepare fittings for ships within the ship maintenance bay by putting the fittings into the ships' cargos. Right now you need another pilot to board the ship, fit it, then eject and have the mothership pilot scoop the ship. Which takes us to the next bug:
- 7. Allow pilots to store ships with cargo.
If a mothership pilot wants to store a ship with cargo in it, he has to scoop it himself or have the pilot remove his cargo first before storing the ship himself.
- 8. Allow pilots to refit modules from the corp hangar.
Presently you can only fit your ship if the module in question is present in the cargohold. Fitting a module from either the corporate hangar or a can will not work. Especially painful if you need to fit a number of ships and you have to seperate the stacks and drag them over to your cargohold with every ship.
- 9. Give us the option to open our drone bays like we once used to.
If we wanna know how much space we have left now, we need to open up excel (love excel tho)
Feel free to correct me where needed.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia |
Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 01:57:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 21/03/2007 02:14:02
I only got my Nyx for less than two weeks now but already I think the motherships could use a tweak or two, or nine. Here's a list of things I think are important to get fixed rather sooner than later. Or rather late than never
- 1. Remove the right-click Board Ship interface entry, especially as its being the very first option but the last thing you would want to do!
While I haven't had the privilege yet of misclicking while scooping empty ships, it damn sure almost happened twice now, the last time with me being inside an enemy POS scooping ships (I was given the forcefield password)
Self destruct and Eject have been given the idiotproof treatment already, and furthermore Supercapital pilots aren't likely to be boarding ships a lot so please make clicking Board Ship pop up a confirmation dialog window. The thought itself of one such fatal misclick is creeping me out already.
- 2. Motherships (Nyx confirmed) do not remember changes to drone folders upon exiting the client.
As it is now, every change (move drone to drone group, remove, or delete drone group) you make to your drone groups is not saved upon client exit, presumably due to an issue with the client overwriting/reverting/corrupting your drone settings when quiting. A workaround to saving your drone group settings involves setting the EVE/cache folder to read-only just prior to client termination, then setting the folder back to read and write. You may have to do this twice. Other Nyx pilots I have talked to about this can confirm this being a bug.
(Bug report has been submitted)
- 3. Optimize the drones overview.
- Make drone entries smaller in height, just like the 1.4 revision of the contracts system. Having to keep an eye on 20 drones in space while also having your Drones in bay opened is practically impossible, even on a 22" widescreen. And that's with the main overview minimized
- Allow drone subgroups. A mothership pilot can easily have 15 different drone groups which clutters up the overview. Instead of 15 drone groups, you could have 4 main ones (Fighters, Drones, EW, Logistic), with for example the fighters being sorted in their respective subgroup within the main Fighter group
- Allow to sort drones by names.
Try picking out the heavy drones here at first glance. Related to 3b: Fighters and Sentries haven't even been grouped by race yet in the picture.
- 4. Not a mothership specific, but fighters really need some <3
- If your fighters come back from a fight and you tell them to return to dronebay and then warp off, they will stop doing anything and just sit there until you either warp back or assign the fighters to someone else. And there's no telling what the drones are doing; they still tell you they are following even when they are not.
- Fighters still return to you at orbit velocity speed instead of MWD.
- Give us the choise to set our fighters to Do not follow when a target warps off. Even when you recall your fighters right after your target warps, it can still take several minutes before they return, leaving your mothership practically droneless for the time being. Ofcourse you can choose to use heavy drones instead, but those only work up to 45 km (there's more important mods to fit than drone links) and above 45km your ability to kill is basically depending on other people's misjudgement. If you engage a target at 120 km with fighters, they are going to need 8 minutes for the return trip.
- Relay fighter status information to the carrierpilot when assigning fighters. People that are not 100% familiar with fighters but asking for em always get them killed. Plus, the fighter's status is sometimes not updated at all, even to the assigned pilot.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia |
Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 01:57:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 21/03/2007 02:02:15
- 5. Nerf bumping.
If you dive your spaceshuttle straight ahead at a 90 degrees angle into the earth's atmosphere, the first thing that happens is you die. If you scratch the atmosphere at a low angle, you bounce off: the earth does not move much at all.
A frigate is of an entirely different magnitude, in terms of proportions and mass than a mothership, yet with decent skills it is possible to keep a mothership from warping. The counter to this are ofcourse smartbombs (which do not work at a station or gate), but this doesn't fix the problem however. A nanod battleship that's being remote repped by a carrier or two will have no trouble keeping you in place for at least a minute, until the next nano BS comes around. If this part of the game was any realistic, the BS would burn up in the shields and cause 40k of explosion damage. (This might be a bit problematic in empire tho ) So at least make it so that bumping has a minimal effect when done by by sub-capital ships.
- 6. Allow us to view cargo's of ships within the ship hangar bay.
This would allow mothership pilots to prepare fittings for ships within the ship maintenance bay by putting the fittings into the ships' cargos. Right now you need another pilot to board the ship, fit it, then eject and have the mothership pilot scoop the ship. Which takes us to the next bug:
- 7. Allow pilots to store ships with cargo.
If a mothership pilot wants to store a ship with cargo in it, he has to scoop it himself or have the pilot remove his cargo first before storing the ship himself.
- 8. Allow pilots to refit modules from the corp hangar.
Presently you can only fit your ship if the module in question is present in the cargohold. Fitting a module from either the corporate hangar or a can will not work. Especially painful if you need to fit a number of ships and you have to seperate the stacks and drag them over to your cargohold with every ship.
- 9. Give us the option to open our drone bays like we once used to.
If we wanna know how much space we have left now, we need to open up excel (love excel tho)
Feel free to correct me where needed.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia |
Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.03.21 03:27:00 -
[5]
Reserved.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia |
Jasmine Dupre
STK Scientific
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.03.21 09:18:00 -
[6]
/signed
very good list of issues especially point 4
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Lethil
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Posted - 2007.03.21 09:31:00 -
[7]
/signed this should be fixed asap
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Jags
Minmatar
M. Corp
M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.03.21 09:37:00 -
[8]
Most od these can apply to carriers as well so I back this 100%
Especially the drone bay and fighter bits
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.21 10:04:00 -
[9]
Sensible suggestions, exept that one:
 Originally by: Aeon Yakati
[list]5. Nerf bumping.
If you dive your spaceshuttle straight ahead at a 90 degrees angle into the earth's atmosphere, the first thing that happens is you die. If you scratch the atmosphere at a low angle, you bounce off: the earth does not move much at all.
A frigate is of an entirely different magnitude, in terms of proportions and mass than a mothership, yet with decent skills it is possible to keep a mothership from warping. The counter to this are ofcourse smartbombs (which do not work at a station or gate), but this doesn't fix the problem however. A nanod battleship that's being remote repped by a carrier or two will have no trouble keeping you in place for at least a minute, until the next nano BS comes around. If this part of the game was any realistic, the BS would burn up in the shields and cause 40k of explosion damage. (This might be a bit problematic in empire tho ) So at least make it so that bumping has a minimal effect when done by by sub-capital ships.
Firstly, "But realistically..." arguments are pointless in eve. Eve is not supposed to be a realistic space simulation - almost every single mechanic in it does not work realistically in the first place.
The foremost reason for the game mechanics in eve is the game balance. Then comes the game fun. Making it realistic is only a far far 3rd.
Motherships as they are now are extremly hard to kill even WITH the current bumping mechanics. There's a reason we had only one real mothership kill so far.
So, if you nerf bumping you have to make them vulnerable in another way (and, no, nothing in eve is supposed to be unkillable, no matter the cost).
If you remove bumping as option to stop unscramable ships from warping you would need to remove their immunity to scrams. And give them ~30 warp core strength instead.
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Ricco Lonestar
Minmatar
xtort
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Posted - 2007.03.21 10:05:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Ricco Lonestar on 21/03/2007 10:07:44
Sexy voice broadcasting a vocal message to gangmember that got a invitation to set up a jumpclone at Mum.
The drone overview defenately needs a overhaul.
A "jump to" button in overview could be very handy.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.21 10:26:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 21/03/2007 10:34:33
Originally by: Aramendel
Firstly, "But realistically..." arguments are pointless in eve. Eve is not supposed to be a realistic space simulation - almost every single mechanic in it does not work realistically in the first place.
The foremost reason for the game mechanics in eve is the game balance. Then comes the game fun. Making it realistic is only a far far 3rd.
Motherships as they are now are extremly hard to kill even WITH the current bumping mechanics. There's a reason we had only one real mothership kill so far.
So, if you nerf bumping you have to make them vulnerable in another way (and, no, nothing in eve is supposed to be unkillable, no matter the cost).
If you remove bumping as option to stop unscramable ships from warping you would need to remove their immunity to scrams. And give them ~30 warp core strength instead.
That "realistic" analogy was meant to put the argument in a humourous way. But if you see through that, you'll see that risk vs reward equation is seriously unbalanced here. As it is now, a heavily plated (and possible remotely supported) BS will have little trouble holding a mothership in place for several minutes. That's 100 million isk vs 30,000 million isk basically. Even if you organize and bring 30 people in HACs and spend 5 hours of preparation, that still does not outweight the work involved of 3+ months of mothership production and tens of billions of ISK spent both in production facilities as well as the actual ship and fitting.
I'd say, the very, very least you should bring if you decide to hold a supercapital is a massive (10+) capital fleet and support. That creates a more balanced risk vs reward sheet and only then, if properly planned and executed, it makes it right to be able to kill a supercapital. Fatal errors on side of the mothership pilot excluded.
I will clarify my point in the list. thanks.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.21 19:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Aramendel on 21/03/2007 19:20:28
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
As it is now, a heavily plated (and possible remotely supported) BS will have little trouble holding a mothership in place for several minutes. That's 100 million isk vs 30,000 million isk basically. Even if you organize and bring 30 people in HACs and spend 5 hours of preparation, that still does not outweight the work involved of 3+ months of mothership production and tens of billions of ISK spent both in production facilities as well as the actual ship and fitting.
If that would work we would have far FAR more than 1 mothership kill *total* in EVE (not counting the one which was killed in a POS). It's not even remotely that simple.
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
I'd say, the very, very least you should bring if you decide to hold a supercapital is a massive (10+) capital fleet and support.
Motherships survive such situations just fine right now. I'd suggest your read up Seleene's battle report vs D2 in the north a few months ago.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.21 20:36:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 21/03/2007 20:48:35
Where did I say it was gonna be easy? Ofcourse bringing in a cap fleet is only half the story. A plan is needed as well. If you can't think of any, then I'd say you don't deserve it tbh.
And I was there when MC deployed their motherships in H-PA and E-0 and I can tell you that the reason the enemy did not kill any of their motherships is cause there were neither expecting MC to bring in their motherships into a fleetfight (H-PA) nor did they have a specific rules of engagement procedure against motherships (E-O).
But let's leave it at that. You won't convince me and I'm not going to try and convince you... (which mothership pilot would?)
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia |
Icome4u
IronPig
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2007.03.21 20:49:00 -
[14]
/Signed
But i was told on SISI carriers and MS got some major love for the graphic upgrade... maybe the DEV only ment visualy but i think it was also a major carrier/MS upgrade.
Grats on your mothership and g/l to BoB :)
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Waxau
Liberty Rogues
Coalition of Carebear Killers
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Posted - 2007.03.21 21:16:00 -
[15]
/signed
Nice list of probs there - nice one
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Callistus
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.21 21:33:00 -
[16]
Very good list.
My only point is that the issue where drone folders are not remembered does not seem to be be exclusive to motherships. The issue arises on any drone-ship when you log out in space, rather than in a station. Obviously this will be noticed most prominently on motherships as they can't dock.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
Fuujin
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.03.21 23:52:00 -
[17]
Amen.
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R3dSh1ft
Caldari
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.03.22 00:08:00 -
[18]
/signed
I can't speak to the mothership specific points but they seem quite reasonable to me.
As a carrier pilot I can confirm the difficulty of managing above 10 fighter drones when assigned to a gangmate... no damage reports and too much space taken by the fighters on the drone list, horrible interface design just horrible.
______________________________________
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.22 01:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
Where did I say it was gonna be easy? Ofcourse bringing in a cap fleet is only half the story. A plan is needed as well.
Yes. And this is right now the case. WITH the current bumping mechanics. Ergo motherships do not need a "boost" there.
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Blind Man
Kemono.
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.22 01:21:00 -
[20]
number one should be a change for all ships. a certain situation sitting in a shuttle watching my sleipnir die to sentries comes to mind 
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.22 09:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Callistus
My only point is that the issue where drone folders are not remembered does not seem to be be exclusive to motherships. The issue arises on any drone-ship when you log out in space, rather than in a station. Obviously this will be noticed most prominently on motherships as they can't dock.
Good to know.
Issues 1 and 2 have been updated and 3d. added
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Rusty PwnStar
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.03.22 14:25:00 -
[22]
/Signed
As drones are the primary weapon group for these ships, then a new type of UI should be looked at.
But as I see it, your post pretty much sums it up. 
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Hubbins
Species 5618
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.22 15:07:00 -
[23]
/Signed
Also many issues can also be applied to regular carriers as well. They need loving too.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh 2k ([email protected]) |
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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2007.03.22 17:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
- 9. Give us the option to open our drone bays like we once used to.
If we wanna know how much space we have left now, we need to open up excel (excel 4tw)
You can open your fitting window in space with a hotkey. In there it shows how much of the drone bay is used and if you click the little drone icon it opens your drone bay. This window is also how you can install rigs.
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Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.22 17:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 22/03/2007 17:16:46
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
- 9. Give us the option to open our drone bays like we once used to.
If we wanna know how much space we have left now, we need to open up excel (excel 4tw)
You can open your fitting window in space with a hotkey. In there it shows how much of the drone bay is used and if you click the little drone icon it opens your drone bay. This window is also how you can install rigs.
/emote grabs a hammer and hits himself 
That's how I fitted my rigs..
But didn't know about the drone button. Will update the list
Edit. Hotkey is Ctrl + Shift + F for those that didn't know, also works near carriers. If I may add, it's awesome.
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2007.03.22 17:52:00 -
[26]
Excellent list. I'll be sure to annoy many people about it. Especially Tux.
"Tux did it!" |
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Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.03.22 20:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
3. Optimize the drones overview.
- Make drone entries smaller in height, just like the 1.4 revision of the contracts system. Having to keep an eye on 20 drones in space while also having your Drones in bay opened is practically impossible, even on a 22" ws. And that's with the main overview minimized
- Allow drone subgroups. A mothership pilot can easily have 15 different drone groups which clutters up the overview. Instead of 15 drone groups, you could have 4 main ones (Fighters, Drones, EW, Logistic), with for example the fighters being sorted in their respective subgroups within the main Fighter group
- Allow to sort drones by names.
Related to 3b. Try picking out the heavy drones at first glance in the screenshot below.
[*]Horrible lag when you hit scoop/return to drone bay with either an expanded Drones in bay drone overview or an expanded Drones in local space overview. Having both drone group folders expanded in the overview while doing this multiplies the lag.
Workaround: Unexpanding, minimizing Drones in bay as well as Drones in local space immediatelly after giving the scoop/return to drone bay command.
I imagine carrier pilots suffer from the same.
The above drone issues can be pretty much summed up in this screenshot
Note that for argument's sake I grouped the sentries in each their own drone group here, but for playability reasons I usually group them together in just one folder. The screenshot was taken on a 22" widescreen @ 1680x1050.
[/list]
/signed for this. Big pain for Domi pilots as well. Do what you did with the gang window and make the HP bars three little boxes on one line instead of three separate lines. OR, keep the shield line separate and squeeze the armor and the structure lines together, because it's really the shields that drone/fighter pilots care about in terms of how much danger the drones are in and whether we need to recall them.
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Ange1
Gallente
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2007.03.22 21:36:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ange1 on 22/03/2007 21:33:38
"Drones/Fighters can not be launched and fighters cannot be delegated while inside a control tower force field."
There seems to be a slight problem with this recent change. Earlier today, we saw an Archon have Fighters deployed yet still inside the POS Shield. I would assume the point of this change was to make it so Carriers have to actually risk themselves outside the Shield to maintain their command of any Fighters If they wander inside the shield, they should lose control if they've not scooped the Fighters.
As The Establishment also has a Nyx, we've been calling a long time for new Fighter types like Bombers for example: Heavier, slower, and designed for hitting Capitals, but a bit crap at anything lower than this.
The Establishment is at your service...
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Tonto Auri
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.03.22 22:18:00 -
[29]
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Originally by: Aeon Yakati
- 9. Give us the option to open our drone bays like we once used to.
If we wanna know how much space we have left now, we need to open up excel (excel 4tw)
You can open your fitting window in space with a hotkey. In there it shows how much of the drone bay is used and if you click the little drone icon it opens your drone bay. This window is also how you can install rigs.
Can we PLEASE get back old top-right statistic?
"Rig hardpoints left" totaly useless, it just duplicates rig slots at the bottom of widow.
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Callistus
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.23 02:00:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ange1
Edited by: Ange1 on 22/03/2007 21:33:38
"Drones/Fighters can not be launched and fighters cannot be delegated while inside a control tower force field."
There seems to be a slight problem with this recent change. Earlier today, we saw an Archon have Fighters deployed yet still inside the POS Shield. I would assume the point of this change was to make it so Carriers have to actually risk themselves outside the Shield to maintain their command of any Fighters If they wander inside the shield, they should lose control if they've not scooped the Fighters.
Fighters cannot be delegated while inside a pos force field, however you can delegate them while outside a pos and then move back inside the force field and they continue to work as normal.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainfrane] |
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