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Slavery For Pieter

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Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2452	Posted - 2016.10.04 18:27:34 - [1] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Whilst the institution of slavery baffles me, the discussion of it ought to have it's own thread. I will say that I instinctively mistrust any generalization that sweeping, though. THIS IS THAT THREAD! What? What did you think I was talking about? Holy carp, people. Anyway! SLAVERY! It's bad. I'll put more cogent thoughts in when I haven't been making sure the new shipment of HugJuice is potent. WOO! Discuss.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 539	Posted - 2016.10.04 18:39:56 - [2] - Quote The idea of owning people is terrible, what else there is to discuss? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1627	Posted - 2016.10.04 18:42:08 - [3] - Quote Well, I mean, he does have to make up for being a dirty pirate and all. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Aradina Varren Alexylva Paradox 77	Posted - 2016.10.04 18:42:16 - [4] - Quote I hope I don't offend anyone when I say that slavery is very not good. Quite not good indeed.
Merchant Rova Pathway to the Next 54	Posted - 2016.10.04 18:43:35 - [5] - Quote Ah a simple Minmatar, you fail to understand. We were just enslaving you so you would join our religion and for no other reason, we swear" -An Amarrian somewhere in the cluster Of course slavery is horrible. "The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision." -Arlette Villers
Karmilla Strife Societas Imperialis Tenura 452	Posted - 2016.10.04 18:50:22 - [6] - Quote Providing people with food, housing, employment, education, health care, and opportunity for advancement is terrible. Anybody who does these things should be ganged up upon and ostracized. Unless they belong to my exclusive social club, or do these things in the same way as itGÇÖs done where I live.
Zekiel Iyhr Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 88	Posted - 2016.10.04 18:55:54 - [7] - Quote Let us not delude ourselves with this thread. I have wavering trust in the original topic poster in and of herself, given the track record of playing the devil's advocate in many situations. Even considering such a thing, it is possible this thread was made with the genuine sincerity of discussing the institution of slavery. However, this will not happen. The current mood on the IGS for any such particular reason is, at the moment, a vehement toxin-laced opposition to the mere concept of the institution itself. Some of these worries are, I feel, based in an unkempt straw bed of truth. However, I do not believe this thread will be able to sufficiently discuss these issues and, as such, the benefits of the institution of slavery. I do not doubt, then, this thread will devolve into the frothing "circlejerk" (that is the word, yes?) that springs most oft from the peanut gallery that peruses threads for a cheap word in edgewise. I do not discourage correspondence over this topic. I simply doubt the Summit of having a useful one.
Claudia Osyn Non-Hostile Target 2101	Posted - 2016.10.04 19:02:20 - [8] - Quote Well, as long as they consent and you respect the safe word... A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1682	Posted - 2016.10.04 19:09:29 - [9] - Quote Slavery for Pieter. Miniature Caldari flags for others ! Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Persephone Alleile Nocx Initiative Moist. 168	Posted - 2016.10.04 19:16:03 - [10] - Quote The concept of self-determination seems completely foreign to the proponents of slavery so I don't see there being much possibility for discussion. That said I think there is disproportionate focus on the Amarr people when it comes to criticism of the institution of slavery. There are many forms of slavery practiced in New Eden, for example I doubt many of the vocal opponents of slavery in Caille are aware of the human cost of the cheap goods and services that make their comfortable lives possible.
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 475	Posted - 2016.10.04 19:31:50 - [11] - Quote Oh look, foreigners are here to tell us how The Word is wrong and bad. How cute. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Claudia Osyn Non-Hostile Target 2102	Posted - 2016.10.04 19:33:47 - [12] - Quote Mitara Newelle wrote: Oh look, foreigners are here to tell us how The Word is wrong and bad. How cute. Well, you would keep lying to yourself otherwise. It's for your own good. A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 776	Posted - 2016.10.04 19:39:40 - [13] - Quote Karmilla Strife wrote: Providing people with food, housing, employment, education, health care, and opportunity for advancement is terrible. Anybody who does these things should be ganged up upon and ostracized. Oh **** right off. Do not equate slavery with ordinary employment, there are very distinct differences that you are well aware of. This is lying by omission, and to see an Amarrian, justifying slavery, play the victim like this is the icing on the cake. Such distinctions between employment and slavery include: not being able to leave, and generally having no rights other than the ones that you are TOLD you have (subject to be taken away at the discretion of the person who put you in that situation, with no input or recourse from you), from no negotiating position at all. Being subjected to whippings, arbitrary execution, and if you decide you want to leave, instead of severance pay, your throat gets severed. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 908	Posted - 2016.10.04 19:50:24 - [14] - Quote The debate on slavery is pretty much over. Those on both sides of the argument have stated their position and will not change until some external factors come into play. Any discussion on the topic is likely to become a shouting and insult match within three posts. If you actually want to have a discussion, pick two or three people that are knowledgeable on the topic from various points of view and sit in a room with them. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Persephone Alleile Nocx Initiative Moist. 169	Posted - 2016.10.04 19:57:43 - [15] - Quote Alizabeth Vea wrote: The debate on slavery is pretty much over. Those on both sides of the argument have stated their position and will not change until some external factors come into play. Any discussion on the topic is likely to become a shouting and insult match within three posts. If you actually want to have a discussion, pick two or three people that are knowledgeable on the topic from various points of view and sit in a room with them. Well said.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2856	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:01:43 - [16] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Whilst the institution of slavery baffles me, the discussion of it ought to have it's own thread. I will say that I instinctively mistrust any generalization that sweeping, though. THIS IS THAT THREAD! What? What did you think I was talking about? Holy carp, people. Anyway! SLAVERY! It's bad. I'll put more cogent thoughts in when I haven't been making sure the new shipment of HugJuice is potent. WOO! Discuss. That's very Arrendiotish of you. Slavery is not bad. Slavery is just a phenomenon, that has both bad and good sides. Claiming it has only bad sides is incredibly ignorant and myopic. Oh, and yes. Slavery is illegal in the State. Discuss it as much as you can, but if you try to bring actual slaves or become a slave in the State, I'll shoot you. And have a nice jam. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Claudia Osyn Non-Hostile Target 2108	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:05:19 - [17] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: or become a slave in the State, I'll shoot you. You are aware that becoming a slave, by it's very nature, is not a voluntary thing. You should shoot the slaver not the slave. A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 476	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:13:03 - [18] - Quote Claudia Osyn wrote: Mitara Newelle wrote: Oh look, foreigners are here to tell us how The Word is wrong and bad. How cute. Well, you would keep lying to yourself otherwise. It's for your own good. A Gallente telling me what is best for my life... This has lightened my day. Truly funny. I am reminded of a quote, a bit crude mind you, however none the less true from Thumal Ebotiz - "We were eating off golden plates while the other races were still using their hands to wipe their arses." Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2856	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:15:21 - [19] - Quote Claudia Osyn wrote: Diana Kim wrote: or become a slave in the State, I'll shoot you. You are aware that becoming a slave, by it's very nature, is not a voluntary thing? You should shoot the slaver not the slave. Being a slave is illegal. I heard some peoples in the Federation were willingly becoming slaves, even despite it is illegal in the Federation as well. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 478	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:23:10 - [20] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: I heard some peoples in the Federation were willingly becoming slaves, even despite it is illegal in the Federation as well. If these people relocate to the Empire, Strike Commander, tell them to seek out my representatives, they can perform the necessary paperwork. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 539	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:26:53 - [21] - Quote Considering it's Kim and there are "slave" and "Gallente" in one sentence I think we are talking about a different kind of "slavery". Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Deitra Vess Non-Hostile Target 1399	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:31:34 - [22] - Quote This debate again? Meh. I guess walls make good conversationalists to some people because this arguement is one in the same to just that.
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 779	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:38:19 - [23] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: Arrendis wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Whilst the institution of slavery baffles me, the discussion of it ought to have it's own thread. I will say that I instinctively mistrust any generalization that sweeping, though. THIS IS THAT THREAD! What? What did you think I was talking about? Holy carp, people. Anyway! SLAVERY! It's bad. I'll put more cogent thoughts in when I haven't been making sure the new shipment of HugJuice is potent. WOO! Discuss. That's very Arrendiotish of you. Slavery is not bad. Slavery is just a phenomenon, that has both bad and good sides. Claiming it has only bad sides is incredibly ignorant and myopic. If the entire cluster exploded tomorrow, and everyone died, poverty would be immediately ended. Don't you think ending poverty is a good thing? The apocalypse is not bad. It's just a phenomenon, that has both bad and good sides. Everyone dies, poverty ended. See how silly that sounds? That's what it sounds like to me when people talk about slavery's "good" side. There is nothing slavery does that cannot be done more efficiently using other means that are more agreeable to the enslaved party. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2858	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:39:23 - [24] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Considering it's Kim and there are "slave" and "Gallente" in one sentence I think we are talking about a different kind of "slavery". Are you able to put an argument without personal attacks, or you lack brain power for that? Maybe you should consider returning back to elementary school to recharge your powers instead of wasting time of IGS readers. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Nicoletta Mithra Tekaima Community of New Eden Pilgrims 766	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:41:19 - [25] - Quote Jason Galente wrote: Oh ** right off. Do not equate slavery with ordinary employment, there are very distinct differences that you are well aware of. This is lying by omission, and to see an Amarrian, justifying slavery, play the victim like this is the icing on the cake. Such distinctions between employment and slavery include: not being able to leave, and generally having no rights other than the ones that you are TOLD you have (subject to be taken away at the discretion of the person who put you in that situation, with no input or recourse from you), from no negotiating position at all. Being subjected to whippings, arbitrary execution, and if you decide you want to leave, instead of severance pay, your throat gets severed so you can serve as an example to others who get "uppity". There are people in the Federation that have the formal right to leave: But there is no practical possibility for them to leave, mostly for economic reasons. Slaves - in the Empire - do have rights and they do have rights that are guaranteed by Scriptural as well as non-Scriptural imperial law, thus rights that their owners can't take away on a whim. Yes, slaves do lack certain rights of freedom your usual subject of the Empire or the usual citizen of the Federation posesses, but both Empire and Federation make use of revoking those rights from certain people within their borders. Many employees have no real negotiating position at all in the Federation. There are prisons in the Federation where penal work is done. Arbitrary whippings executions and such happen as oftentimes there as to slaves in the Empire - or maybe even more often than to slaves, as slaves are oftentimes much better off than your usual federal in-mate. Does a prisoner in the Federation get severance pay if he "wants to leave prison"? I highly doubt it. I rather think they are made examples off to other prisoners. Jason Galente wrote:** Only someone who has had no intimate experience with the institution, or stands to profit greatly from the obscuring of these facts, could say such a stupid thing. Which institution? The institution of employment or of slavery? I think very few people from the Federation have intimate experience with the institution of slavery. They know of it from cheap holo flicks and propaganda videos. Or if they have intimate experience it's derived from the illegal slavery which is practiced e.g. in the pleasure hubs of the Federation. This form of slavery is an abomination indeed. It's quite a different animal from slavery as practiced in the Empire. And the indignation about imperial slavery neither formally nor practically offering those freedoms which all federal citizens - except for prisoners, of course, but that's entirely ignored, even though a lot of slavery in the Empire is penal slavery - formally enjoy is pure hyprocrisy, as long as so many federal citizens enjoy these only on paper, while in reality they struggle so hard to meet their basic needs that those abstract rights are so far away from the reality of their daily life and big corporations can treat them oftentimes just as slaves - with the exception that they don't even pay enough as to provide people with food, housing, employment, education, health care, or even opportunity for advancement. Start putting your own house in order before criticising others. But oh no, it's so much comfier to ignore your own shortcomings by making out failings in others...
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2858	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:45:25 - [26] - Quote Jason Galente wrote: Don't you think ending poverty is a good thing? No. Poverty is a problem of those who live in it. In the State fate of humans lays in hands of humans themselves. Those, who don't want to be poor, they do work. Only lazy people can live in poverty, and I don't care what happens to them. Their existence neither helps nor damages the State (provided the State doesn't waste resources on them). Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 539	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:46:22 - [27] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: Are you able to put an argument without personal attacks, or you lack brain power for that? Maybe you should consider returning back to elementary school to recharge your powers instead of wasting time of IGS readers. Such expression! You see insults where there aren't any. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Karmilla Strife Societas Imperialis Tenura 458	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:46:29 - [28] - Quote Jason Galente wrote: Oh ** right off. Sir, this thread is titled Slavery for Pieter. How do you know I wasn't just trying to fit in with the cool crowd by criticizing the mega-corporate system? Could it be that your inherent racist attitude colored (in bright angry shades of red) your rather inflamed response? I think you'll find, once you get past that apoplectic feeling you feel seeing an Amarrian post in a thread with slavery in the title, that my previous statement could apply to any society's system of social welfare. No matter the merits or flaws of such systems, the vast majority of us insist "our" way is right. That everyone else is wrong. And that anyone who disagrees with our opinion can "** right off."
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6476	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:47:53 - [29] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Well, I mean, he does have to make up for being a dirty pirate and all. Tut, Aldrith - I have never knowingly committed the act of Piracy in any way that can't be explained by the fog of war and the slightly ambiguous rules of engagement that PY-RE operates under. I'm far more of a grubby Privateer than a dirty Pirate. Moreover, the current targets of my ire are Blood-Raiders, Drifters and Purity terrorists based in and around the Sarum Prime and Murini systems - which means that not only am I a grubby Privateer, but I'm also keeping your garden tidy, at the moment. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2858	Posted - 2016.10.04 20:51:32 - [30] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Such expression! You see insults where there aren't any. I see you were talking about me. This discussion is not about me. Please vacate it if you can't contribute. Thanks in advance. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

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