EVE Search - eVe economy balancing thread.

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

eVe economy balancing thread.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Illuminaty	Posted - 2007.03.23 02:54:00 - [61] So would -10.0 pirates have to pay taxes? Because I'd imagine a visit from the tax collector would go down like Greedo vs Han Solo.
Motorcycle Emptiness	Posted - 2007.03.23 03:46:00 - [62] Originally by: Fenderson forgive me if this has already been posted but: how to dodge taxes in eve: step 1) buy lots of mega / zyd / morphite / officer and faction mods / etc step 2) anchor a bunch of secure cans in safespot in your favorite system step 3) fill cans from step 2 with stuff from step 1 vioa! instant eve tax shelter. not to mention that you'd make money on the raising prices of said minerals
Montague Zooma Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.23 07:21:00 - [63] This thread is taxing my patience.
Aeryn Davenport Claflin Industries	Posted - 2007.03.23 07:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 22/03/2007 08:58:58 My idea on how to balance eVe economy and reduce inflation. Before I present my idea, I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. Q. How to balance the economy and reduce inflation? A. My favourite word, tax. Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? LOL! /sarcasm on Yeah...that's going to happen.... /sarcasm off
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.23 07:58:00 - [65] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 22/03/2007 08:58:58 My idea on how to balance eVe economy and reduce inflation. Before I present my idea, I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. Q. How to balance the economy and reduce inflation? A. My favourite word, tax. Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? They would have to come collect, and prey it from my dead clone...which could actually be fun In the overall aspect of things, we play this "Game" to have fun, not to be taxed, like in real life, allready pay to much there Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
Fayn Trak Gallente Myridian Trading Systems	Posted - 2007.03.23 08:10:00 - [66] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? Not really, It'd be far more awsome ot have more dynamic pricing of isk sinks to take isk out assuming you're view of the economy is isk + the ammount you don't think you should be there = material goods I'm thinking the only imbalance is that as isk devalues the isk sinks have less impact. Also why is it that you view inflation as a problem. A herd of cattle A flock of geese A lot of isk remember when sigs were text?
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 08:28:00 - [67] There was a thread about inflation about 2-3 weeks ago, or rather about the lack of it. The price development on different types of items varies greatly. T1 items prices remains at about mineral +10%, T2 is at production x N, N E Z... Prices of high end minerals are coming down, while low ends are rising, up to a point where mining for mexallon is more profitable than zydrine. T2 markets have a hard cap on produced amount and as demand constantly grows as the playerbase grows the prices of T2 items grow as well. Not inflation, just an unflexible supply, when demand is growing. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.23 08:50:00 - [68] Originally by: Fenderson forgive me if this has already been posted but: how to dodge taxes in eve: step 1) buy lots of mega / zyd / morphite / officer and faction mods / etc step 2) anchor a bunch of secure cans in safespot in your favorite system step 3) fill cans from step 2 with stuff from step 1 vioa! instant eve tax shelter. No. It is fool-proof. You anchor the cans in space, you own them and everything that is stored in them. Anything that belongs to you which are assets in hangar, secure cans, etc. are taxable. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Karanth Gallente Crazy 88's O X I D E	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:10:00 - [69] First off, LOLLERSKATES. Second, since when is Jenny Spitfire in favor of taxing people? I recall more than a few vehement rejections of calls for taxing noob corps, and now you want to tax EVERYONE much more heavily than the most heavy-handed taxation proposed there? I think someone is drunk, or clone-jacked TBH. This is a fighter for the Crazy 88's. It is protecting the assets of the OXIDE Alliance and may attack anyone it perceives as a threat. Threat level: About 60 words per minute I'll see your beer, and raise you a goat kebob- Tirg
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.23 11:26:00 - [70] How about we do away with contracts? After all the only reason one would have to sell a ship there is to avoid the taxes, and broker fee. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Jack Creme	Posted - 2007.03.23 11:45:00 - [71] So, in a nutshell Jenny, the Eve community emphatically says "No" to the taxation described in your post. If Eve inflation exists - and I'd like to see how this is a proven fact - so what? Its not as if we have our pension funds or savings tied up in the Eve economy. The wallet giveth and the wallet taketh away. Isk and the Eve economy has real-life equivalence, its merely the means to the end for playing the game.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.23 12:07:00 - [72] Unrelated Q: WHY, for the love of the lord, do you spell it "eVe"?! --------
Jack StarMule Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.03.23 12:44:00 - [73] Originally by: Mr Mozzie I think you misunderstand how physics works. There is no such thing in physics as a quantum mechanics camp, or a string theory camp. Well, you've definitely got me there! I may not be an economist (or play one on TV) but the closest I have ever come to physics is reading "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "A Brief History of Time". I'm a layman if there ever were one. I will tell you however that much of the available literature to laymen says things like "excluding quantum mechanics" in the process of defining things in string theory, so I suppose it's an easy mistake to make. Even Wikipedia makes that sort of statement. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Moving onto the economics. When I say CCP should hire economists, I do not mean they should hire the type of economist that are members of a certain RL macroeconomic economic policy camps. I'm afraid that when it comes to schooling for Economics, you're stuck with one RL camp or another. They are all very much mutually exclusive. There are VAST contradictions between the different major schools of thought on economics. Now there are some camps that compliment one another, but for the most part they all fall under a Laissez Faire or a Socialist Interventionist umbrella. The US exists in a strange hybrid of the two camps, with more and more regulation being lumped on with startling regularity. IMO, this regulation is not for the best, but it continues to occur. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Economics does not just apply to RL economies, as others have suggested on this thread. It also applies to artificial economies like that of eve. With all due respect to CCP, if they hire economists, they should be ones who have an interest in understanding exotic economies. They should be able to explain to CCP how the eve economy works in laymanÆs terms. Also, they should be able to understand CCP's intent for the game and advise them on the economic consequences of their æinterferenceÆ with the game. That would be a wonderful creature, indeed. I'm sure there are quite a few graduate students who are focused on this sort of thing. Especially with the popularity in recent years of MMO's. An unlimited supply side constrained only by completely controllable metrics is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. My original warning still holds true. If CCP hires an Interventionist focused economist, they will likely ruin the economy. They will certainly cause real inflation through control practices, which will result in more time being spent on secondary (unfun) activities and less time in the primary (fun) activities.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.23 13:12:00 - [74] Originally by: Jack StarMule Originally by: Mr Mozzie I think you misunderstand how physics works. There is no such thing in physics as a quantum mechanics camp, or a string theory camp. Well, you've definitely got me there! I may not be an economist (or play one on TV) but the closest I have ever come to physics is reading "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "A Brief History of Time". I'm a layman if there ever were one. I will tell you however that much of the available literature to laymen says things like "excluding quantum mechanics" in the process of defining things in string theory, so I suppose it's an easy mistake to make. Even Wikipedia makes that sort of statement. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Moving onto the economics. When I say CCP should hire economists, I do not mean they should hire the type of economist that are members of a certain RL macroeconomic economic policy camps. I'm afraid that when it comes to schooling for Economics, you're stuck with one RL camp or another. They are all very much mutually exclusive. There are VAST contradictions between the different major schools of thought on economics. Now there are some camps that compliment one another, but for the most part they all fall under a Laissez Faire or a Socialist Interventionist umbrella. The US exists in a strange hybrid of the two camps, with more and more regulation being lumped on with startling regularity. IMO, this regulation is not for the best, but it continues to occur. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Economics does not just apply to RL economies, as others have suggested on this thread. It also applies to artificial economies like that of eve. With all due respect to CCP, if they hire economists, they should be ones who have an interest in understanding exotic economies. They should be able to explain to CCP how the eve economy works in laymanÆs terms. Also, they should be able to understand CCP's intent for the game and advise them on the economic consequences of their æinterferenceÆ with the game. That would be a wonderful creature, indeed. I'm sure there are quite a few graduate students who are focused on this sort of thing. Especially with the popularity in recent years of MMO's. An unlimited supply side constrained only by completely controllable metrics is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. My original warning still holds true. If CCP hires an Interventionist focused economist, they will likely ruin the economy. They will certainly cause real inflation through control practices, which will result in more time being spent on secondary (unfun) activities and less time in the primary (fun) activities. I think most of the most controversial parts of RL economic theories don't really apply in Eve. A debate of government intervention vs. laissez faire? Not that likely. Eve has by design full employment and zero base consumption (no meaningful cost associated to living, such as rent, food etc). All consumption is either related to leisure activity (pvp) or is more a matter of investment (ammo for ratting or buying a hulk to mine). As a result social transfers are unneeded and labour markets in the RL sense are non-existent. Which are probably among the most hotly debated issues in RL economics. As long as an economist is not an extreme nutcase on either side of the laissez faire vs government intervention debate, I think you're probably gonna end up with pretty much the same advice, regardless of who you would choose to monitor Eve. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Liliane Woodhead	Posted - 2007.03.23 13:38:00 - [75] Originally by: Etruscus Inflation isn't necessarily a bad thing. In the real world it is bad because it is cited as the main cause of unemployment in the long run. There isn't such an analogue in eve. Hmmm, I think the CCP staff gets unemployed when they tax our collector boxes of rare/never used/dusty items And at all, they have other tools to work with. ever seen a SQL script running ? ;) Sorry Jenny, good arguments but let taxes where they are. IRL .oO( or 0.0 is untaxed ... monaco ... swiss .. Delve ... Stain, French Antilles Island g )
Joebarchuck	Posted - 2007.03.23 13:42:00 - [76] There is a very simple solution to balancing Eve's economy: Reduce DEMAND. Of course there are many ways to do so but the best way is not TAX. TAX is horrible. No the best way is to increase the ships strenght by 25%. This will greatly reduce demand on ships, materials, modules, etc... Thus greating more supply and inducing prices to drop but some amount but not much maybe 10%. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On top of that increasing ships strengh can make it more fun to play in missions and in pvp where strategies to beat the opponent will be more based on electronic warfare strategies rather than the size of guns. Let's suggest this to CCP...
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:12:00 - [77] Someone want to remind me why the economy needs 'fixing'? Almost everything has a built in cap based on seeded item sales. For instance trit has a price cap based on shuttles. Markets work best when you leave them alone.
Joebarchuck	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:21:00 - [78] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Someone want to remind me why the economy needs 'fixing'? Almost everything has a built in cap based on seeded item sales. For instance trit has a price cap based on shuttles. Markets work best when you leave them alone. Simply because everything is so expensive that we need to play hours of missions to buy great tech II modules. This is too much when players start to pvp.
Zegox	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:28:00 - [79] Here's my solution: 1) Require all players to file a real-life tax return on all their EvE transactions for the past year. After tallying up all transactions from the past year, the assessed tax rate will be applied, based on some arbitrary and archaic policy that can only be deciphered by reading thousands of pages of bureaucratic drivel. Players that don't meet their April 15th tax deadline will have their accounts suspended. 2) EvE player base flees in terror - only a few CPAs and madly masochistic people remain. 3) Economy stabilizes from lack of activity - problem solved!
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:28:00 - [80] what abotu my assets stored outside empire space, for example in an IAC station, why should I get taxed on them assets unless the isk was togo to the empire I'm part of iac :). Join The Fight With Promo Today
Jack StarMule Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:54:00 - [81] Edited by: Jack StarMule on 23/03/2007 14:52:45 Edit: Hmm.. Somehow the forum ate my entire reply and just left a quote.
nreisan	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:59:00 - [82] 'tax' implies your under a government or controlling body and helping pay for services. So unless your in empire space and paying for concord its kinda stupid idea. All it will do is act as an Isk sink.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:59:00 - [83] I'm a Keynesian economist, and not even I would suggest this idea!!! The things that are needed are: Limitations on isk rewards from rats and missions. Basically there is a need to find other ways to reward than straight isk. My suggestion would be in mods/implants/minerals/etc. This reduces the ISK injected into the economy and increases how much is moved around. Insurance HAS to stay for game play purposes. Getting rid of it would be a sure fire way of destroying the player base. Not saying I like it, just that I can see why its there - increasing the cost on it could work though, especially for the higher end ships. Tax. Yes there should be tax, but it doesn't have to be anything new. The existing sales taxes will cover nicely. They just have to be increased to something meaningful. 1% is nothing, especially when you can reduce that with skills. I've trained them to 5 and I barely notice the difference tbh. The level of the tax can alter over time based on analysis. Variable Sales tax by system. Jita got too many Sell orders? Increase the tax till it settles down. Flexible NPC prices. Bar maybe basic skill prices (the ones newbies need), any NPC good or service that sells out should respawn at a higher quantity until a max production level and then respawn at a higher price. Price increase until it stops selling out. No sell out for x period, begins to drop until a min level. Then the amount available drops instead. (juggle the order things happen in to suit û price rise/drop or supply rise/drop - this is just a principle idea) - now, I'm aware this happens to a limited degree, however it appears to be capped and not across the board and supply is not a variable factor. personally I think there should be a simple calculation on the quantity of ISK in the economy, the number of players (thus player/isk ratio) and the rate of injection/drain, with taxation adjusted periodically to bring the ratio back to a pre determined level. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:07:00 - [84] Originally by: Roshan longshot How about we do away with contracts? After all the only reason one would have to sell a ship there is to avoid the taxes, and broker fee. This raises a good point, taxation on the contracts system is prolly needed. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:18:00 - [85] Originally by: Joebarchuck There is a very simple solution to balancing Eve's economy: Reduce DEMAND. Of course there are many ways to do so but the best way is not TAX. TAX is horrible. No the best way is to increase the ships strenght by 25%. This will greatly reduce demand on ships, materials, modules, etc... Thus greating more supply and inducing prices to drop but some amount but not much maybe 10%. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On top of that increasing ships strengh can make it more fun to play in missions and in pvp where strategies to beat the opponent will be more based on electronic warfare strategies rather than the size of guns. Let's suggest this to CCP... FFS, The prices of T1 items has been declining all the time. If you look at the price history foor example rokhs, hyperions etc: The prices are going down from the initial sittuation (high demand, only very few suppliers) where they cost around 300M, to the current day (demand dropped, saturation of market due to over producing) to the mineral prices, of around 170-200M. The same thing is happening with all T1 items. T2 items have their price go up, because the player base has grown, so the demand is growing, while the supply has a hard cap of how many units can be produced in a limited amount of time, due to the limited amount of BPOs. There can be no market entry for new competitors. And due to the relatively low limit on BPC runs those will primaryly only lower the demand on the market, as inventors will primarily produce for their own use and only dump their surplus on the market, if any. The only way to limit this price growth is to reduce the amount of players. And that is something that is not advantegeus to CCP. The number of released BPOs should be tied to the amount of active subscriptions in the game, and new BPOs should be either put for auction (A combination of RP and isk) or just through lotteries again. I just don't get how decreasing demand increases supply. In the long term according to even the basics of economics it should do the excact opposite. Economics 101. A good market has a high entry and a low exit costs. So the market would funktion better, if the price of BPOs would be increased significantly. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Jack StarMule Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:43:00 - [86] What a cosmic coincidence! Right after replying to this thread, I got this on my RSS Feed: http://blog.mises.org/archives/006419.asp Perhaps we should send a copy to the OP and the devs? Quote: Some topics covered: * Why central planning has never worked and never will * How prices operate in a free market (and why socialist schemes like rent control always backfire) snip * Raising taxes: why it is never "responsible" snip * Plus: Are you a capitalist pig? Take the quiz and find out!
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:55:00 - [87] An unregulated economy only emphasis the economics of scale in any project and eventually distributes enough wealth to the select few. It leads to those "let them eat cake" kinds of situations and the following backlash. It's all about finding the balance in between a regulated and free market. Neither extreme works at all. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:56:00 - [88] Originally by: Jack StarMule Edited by: Jack StarMule on 23/03/2007 15:12:53 Edited by: Jack StarMule on 23/03/2007 14:52:45 Edit: Hmm.. Somehow the forum ate my entire reply and just left a quote. Edit 2: (Try to retype some of my post) Basically, I agree that many of the RL concepts that are debated by economists have no place in Eve. I think that "Inflation" of M1 (pure cash on hand money) is one of those items that has no place in the debate. I have a correlation from another video game that I play on occassion, FFXI. It used to have a healthy player economy. In the process of attempting to remove RMT from the servers, Square Enix removed most of the gil creation activities from the game. Yet they didn't remove the requirement for gil for things that you still need to perform your jobs appropriately. (tools, medicines, food, ammo etc.) As such you spend an inordinate amount of time preparing to do your job. It is much less fun time and much more work time. The developers of FFXI also added new ways to receive equipment through non monetary means. Now you must expend your effort in game performing those activities if you have any hope of receiving the items that are best for most jobs. You must also compete against others in your group for the same item. This results in extreme grinding of the same task over and over. Even fun activities get very boring if you're doing the exact same thing over and over again. That is true inflation in video games. That should be a major concern for the developers here. Time inflation is the dangerous inflation. It affects your end users in many negative ways. With all of the talk of controlling Isk faucets and forcing the player economy to absorb drops we are dangerously close to a similar situation here. The items would have to regularly be a high demand item of some form to shake loose the Isk from hoarders. The hoarders will be even more careful about their spending if the developers make it even harder to create new Isk. A tax would further exacerbate the problem by unnecessarily harming the user base which can not create the isk necessary to pay the tax. ESPECIALLY if the tax is on already acquired items. Nowhere in the modern world is a purchased consumable taxed more than once (at purchase). Only Real Property (land) is taxed on any recurring basis. Land is also a truly scarce resource. I would indeed avoid the solution of the ever increasing grind. Economies survive on ever increasing productivity, which is unfortunately a direct contradiction with the way most MMOs work. What I think would work is greater benefits of investment to reduce the grind. I.e. introduce that capital lowend miner that will clear whole belts of veldspar-scordite-pyro, and the capital iceminer that gets 4 times more ice per hour than a maxed out Mackinaw. But make them cost 1-5billion a piece, and only usable in lowsec and 0.0, as well as anchored in order to use them. I.e. investment + risk = profit. Which is IMO much better than forcing any kind of grind. As for inflation, I don't see it. Quite the contrary, I see a bit of deflation atm, and it will only increase with T2 invention arriving to drive prices down in that area. Of course CCP did a few things to curb the inflation risk, most notably the absence of bounties for rats in the new regions. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:58:00 - [89] Originally by: Laboratus An unregulated economy only emphasis the economics of scale in any project and eventually distributes enough wealth to the select few. It leads to those "let them eat cake" kinds of situations and the following backlash. It's all about finding the balance in between a regulated and free market. Neither extreme works at all. Umm, in the RL you would be right as there is limited resources to go around, as well as significant economies of scale, high entry costs, etc. In Eve, resources are practically unlimited, entry costs are minimal and economies of scale barely exist. Only there where there is regulation atm (i.e. the limiting of the number of T2 BPOs) you see excessive profits in Eve. Eve is best served with an free market, unlike the real world where you need regulation. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2007.03.23 16:02:00 - [90] Actually if you want to argue that tech 2 tier items are the inflationary problem, then this has already been fixed. Any good trader and financier knows that the tech 2 BPO market is crashing as we debate this out and that it won't likely recover any time soon with changes to things like invention, new seeds, etc.... And since BPO values are coming down, this makes it easier for newer production plants to get into the market thus increasing supply and bringing costs down. You're already seeing this trend on a few T2 items.

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.