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Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:02:00 - [1] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 22/03/2007 08:58:58 My idea on how to balance eVe economy and reduce inflation. Before I present my idea, I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. Q. How to balance the economy and reduce inflation? A. My favourite word, tax. Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Motorcycle Emptiness	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:06:00 - [2] Edited by: Motorcycle Emptiness on 22/03/2007 09:03:31 If i had billions of iskies i'd just store them in contracts rewards for myself. evading the tax. and just because i bang my head off the wall occasionally doth not make me a brain surgeon.
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Motorcycle Emptiness If i had billions of iskies i'd just store them in contract rewards for myself. I'd make a habit of cashing them out into tiny valuable needful things and using direct trades or alt frontment for my business.
Terro Deagas Minmatar Kapital Punishment	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:08:00 - [4] Eve isn't a real-world economy Sorry, but this idea makes me shudder. I like my iskies where they are
Ronaldson	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:14:00 - [5] No taxation without representation Dont tread on me I live with property tax, income tax. sales tax, death tax hell more dang taxes than this nation went to war over a tax on assets would mean I would have to work on making isk, key word WORK this is a game I would rather have fun at. making isk isnt something I want to be forced into doing just to keep my ships
Maam	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:15:00 - [6] You've been watching Gordon Brown haven't you? Only if I can have an in game Stocks & Shares ISA, with investments split between the EVSE 100 share index (top 100 corps)?
Sisco Deivas Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:20:00 - [7] Edited by: Sisco Deivas on 22/03/2007 09:16:24 Originally by: Maam You've been watching Gordon Brown haven't you? Only if I can have an in game Stocks & Shares ISA, with investments split between the EVSE 100 share index (top 100 corps)? She'd be stealing out of the pension fund then... surely?
Schultze Caldari Net 7 Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:24:00 - [8] Edited by: Schultze on 22/03/2007 09:21:47 The economy is having hick-up's not doubt, but with more than 3 years experience in eve. I would say these hick-up are of the good kind. I belive we are seeing a new market forming, mostly due to the extinction of macro miners. Demand on minerals has not changed but prices have, Mexallon is selling for 25 ISK and Pyerite is going for 10 ISK a unit. In other words the wealth of eve is now getting more evenly distributed. Giving the masses a greater buying power does not equal increased inflation. Once the "rich¦s" buying power have been scaled down, mineral prices will drop fast. And the market should even out.
Del ReyII Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:29:00 - [9] So if I buy a raven from person a from market, he has payed sales tax on that item, afterwards according to your scheme and in relation to my wallet+assets, I got to pay taxes on that raven because its in my assets, and then if I sell it, I get to pay taxes again. Your a RL economist? Are you sure your not a member of a government body?
Hillesumos Minmatar Constructive Influence	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:38:00 - [10] Instead of tax you could use a different system called interest rate. Atm, iskies sitting on your wallet do not earn any interest or anything really. Now let say that you earn 1% a week. Adavantage would be that the more mature player with lot of money would do too many carebear stuff since they would only use their interest payment to fund their expensive pvp habit. The tech 2 BPO would be sold by non industrialist to people who would make more money with them. --------- Sadly I just make ISK, I don't print it. :(
Bosie Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. I would like to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL taxpayer with many years experience: No. "There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND." .
Motorcycle Emptiness	Posted - 2007.03.22 09:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Bosie Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. I would like to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL taxpayer with many years experience: No. you win the thread, as they say
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.22 10:00:00 - [13] Glances at assets err....no?
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.03.22 10:16:00 - [14] If they want to fight inflation they should work on all the different artificial ways that money is brought into the economy through NPCs (like rat bounties, mission payments, and insurance). ------------------ "If you ever need anything, please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Motorcycle Emptiness	Posted - 2007.03.22 10:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Hannobaal If they want to fight inflation they should work on all the different artificial ways that money is brought into the economy through NPCs (like rat bounties, mission payments, and insurance). as a matter of factoids, they are! For example, in the training deadspace complexes the rats now only give 100 isk per in bounties instead of 1000 isk. the shockwaves are spreading through the economy as we trifle here with mere words!!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.22 11:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire toons STFU - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Alexi Borizkova Originally by: Motorcycle Emptiness If i had billions of iskies i'd just store them in contract rewards for myself. I'd make a habit of cashing them out into tiny valuable needful things and using direct trades or alt frontment for my business. Feel free to use 1000 alt toons to avoid tax. I am sure CCP would be happy that each player would own 334 game accounts for tax benefits. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire toons STFU What is wrong with toons? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Hannobaal If they want to fight inflation they should work on all the different artificial ways that money is brought into the economy through NPCs (like rat bounties, mission payments, and insurance). But there is no better ISKs sink than tax from Gods. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Del ReyII So if I buy a raven from person a from market, he has payed sales tax on that item, afterwards according to your scheme and in relation to my wallet+assets, I got to pay taxes on that raven because its in my assets, and then if I sell it, I get to pay taxes again. Tax is working as intended, ISKs sink. ISKs sink is good for curing inflation. Rich players would be taxed more than poor players. All is good. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Porphyro Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Jenny Spitfire toons STFU What is wrong with toons? The same thing thats wrong with "eVe"
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:12:00 - [22] I'd rather see the cash in my wallet accrue interest rather than be taxed to oblivion. Alternately, give us a bank where we can store our iskies, for a more RP feel to the interest concept. warp drive active \| nature vraie
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:16:00 - [23] ridiculous suggestion.
getmoving	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 22/03/2007 08:58:58 My idea on how to balance eVe economy and reduce inflation. Before I present my idea, I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. Q. How to balance the economy and reduce inflation? A. My favourite word, tax. Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? benefits section. i sit about in my pod getting paid out of someone elses taxes :)
Arx Impera Amarr Gr0und Zer0	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:40:00 - [25] Edited by: Arx Impera on 22/03/2007 13:37:16 Having isks deducted from you each, say, month based on the amount you already have would awful. Having it be deducted out of the value of your assets would be even worse. Then EVE becomes a job, where you have to engage in isk making, regardless if you want to goof around or whatever, taking away freedom of play in a way, only to pay your bills, a "wonderful" concept.... You say the rich are taxed more, the poor less, only that the poor now struggle even more, and the rich, with a rate of income, can thrive either way. How it could work? If you were taxed based on your gains. It would be pointless in the way that CCP could easily just reduce the isk gain in certain areas of the game, but could be interesting that they would suddenly have 1 huge lever to turn and twist accordingly. Regardless, dont turn the game into RL. ...who of course promptly went bat****, flipped out and killed some people.
B0rn2KiLL DEATHFUNK	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:44:00 - [26] Edited by: B0rn2KiLL on 22/03/2007 13:41:01 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 22/03/2007 08:58:58 My idea on how to balance eVe economy and reduce inflation. Before I present my idea, I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. Q. How to balance the economy and reduce inflation? A. My favourite word, tax. Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? no. t2 bpo owners\past owners and benefactors (EDIT: like, yourself) will be happy to take the hit. us commoners wont. so no thanks. a very bad suggestion. etc --- Originally by: Oveur It's important to understand that EVE is a "PvP" focused game
Alphamarine Minmatar Rage Academy	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:46:00 - [27] I will selflessly put myself forward as tax collector, since i am always skint from buying T2 ships like most in eve i endorse the tax idea Jenny p.s. Didn't you try and sell me a Vaga for 300 mill once, now thats inflation CEO Rage Academy
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:52:00 - [28] You're a RL economist with many years experience and this is the best you could come up with? Come off it. If you'd said "I once wiped my arse with a copy of The Economist" that might be closer to the truth. Taxation of static assets is just not going to work. If ISK inflation needs combatted - Does it? - then continue on with things the way they are. Don't introduce new ways for ISK to enter the game. And work out ways to increase the current ISK sinks - Decrease the amount of ice required to run POSs, and increase the NPC goods. Remove insurance. Switch some of belt rats bounty to CONCORD/DED loyalty points (Warning, unpopular). Etc. Taxation when money changes hands is fine, taxation of peoples wallets is ludicrous. And yes I do have a degree in Economics, but it has no relevance to these banal concepts :P Galaxian Recruitment Info
Mr Mozzie Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:10:00 - [29] I think it is quite simple; CCP should hire real life economists to watch over the eve economy. Lots of people think that economics is some made up arbitrary bs that has no real world meaning. It isn't so. The laws of economics are just as compulsory as the laws of physics, (I say that as a physicist). In other words, you wouldn't build a bridge without an engineer, so why would you have an economy without an economist, (especially if the economy is in a rapidly changing environment).
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:17:00 - [30] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 22/03/2007 14:14:05 Originally by: Mr Mozzie I think it is quite simple; CCP should hire real life economists to watch over the eve economy. Lots of people think that economics is some made up arbitrary bs that has no real world meaning. It isn't so. The laws of economics are just as compulsory as the laws of physics, (I say that as a physicist). In other words, you wouldn't build a bridge without an engineer, so why would you have an economy without an economist, (especially if the economy is in a rapidly changing environment). I am an economist, and one specialized in taxes and the effects of taxation. There is a big difference between RL economics and the economics of Eve, although the general 'laws' of economics will still apply to some extent, their effects can be vastly different due to the existence of some constraints as well as the absence of others. As for a tax on wealth, while it conceivably could work if you taxed all assets, there are too many ways to avoid such a tax, and the benefits in terms of inflation are marginal at best. CCP has much better tools at its disposal that could reduce inflation if they so choose, and with less side-effects. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Jack StarMule Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:18:00 - [31] I agree that it would be useful for CCP to at least consult economists before making major changes to the economy. That being said, just like Physics, there are many schools of thought surrounding economics. Some better than others at describing certain facets of economy. I personally am a believer of the Austrian School (laissez faire) and the OP here is obviously Keynesian school (interventionist socialist). Each of us has theories regarding economy. Each of us has a different take on what a balanced economy is. How does CCP decide which economic theory is the correct one? Put another way; As a physicist do you subscribe to the String theory camp or the Quantum Mechanics camp? Both have reasonably legitimate ways of looking at the universe. Both come to the observable facts from very different angles. Which is the "right" answer? Unfortunately, you and I both know that we don't have the answer to that question. Likely we're all wrong, on one level or another.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Jack StarMule Keynesian economics have no place in a video game economy. They screw up the real world enough, tyvm. QFT ------------------ "If you ever need anything, please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Izzy Pol Fear and Loathing in LoneTrek	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:35:00 - [33] Change "RL economist" to "emo internet nerd with no clue on tax" If you were an RL anything you would know tax is levied on income. Capital comes into it on disposal. With your system people would have 0 disposable ISK and either have to earn like crazy or liquidate to pay taxes.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:36:00 - [34] Originally by: Jack StarMule I agree that it would be useful for CCP to at least consult economists before making major changes to the economy. That being said, just like Physics, there are many schools of thought surrounding economics. Some better than others at describing certain facets of economy. I personally am a believer of the Austrian School (laissez faire) and the OP here is obviously Keynesian school (interventionist socialist). Each of us has theories regarding economy. Each of us has a different take on what a balanced economy is. How does CCP decide which economic theory is the correct one? Put another way; As a physicist do you subscribe to the String theory camp or the Quantum Mechanics camp? Both have reasonably legitimate ways of looking at the universe. Both come to the observable facts from very different angles. Which is the "right" answer? Unfortunately, you and I both know that we don't have the answer to that question. Likely we're all wrong, on one level or another. I wouldn't call the OP Keynesian. The OP tries to directly influence inflation through taxation, Keynesian economics assume a possibility to influence real growth through varying taxation over the economic cycle, which will only indirectly influence inflation (if such policy is succesful). I also think that a Keynesian policy would in all likelyhood increase inflation during a downturn if the policy were effective. The OP seems to be trying to mimic monetary policy through fiscal policy, which I can't directly contribute to any school I know (albeit my knowledge there is rather rusty I admit). I doubt any such school exists tbh. since in RL we do have monetary policy, which is absent in Eve. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:41:00 - [35] Originally by: Mr Mozzie I think it is quite simple; CCP should hire real life economists to watch over the eve economy. Lots of people think that economics is some made up arbitrary bs that has no real world meaning. It isn't so. The laws of economics are just as compulsory as the laws of physics, (I say that as a physicist). In other words, you wouldn't build a bridge without an engineer, so why would you have an economy without an economist, (especially if the economy is in a rapidly changing environment). You don't need to be an economist to understand how the Eve economy works. It's very simple. What CCP need for the economy is number crunchers - which I believe they already have. Galaxian Recruitment Info
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:48:00 - [36] Originally by: Izzy Pol Change "RL economist" to "emo internet nerd with no clue on tax" If you were an RL anything you would know tax is levied on income. Capital comes into it on disposal. With your system people would have 0 disposable ISK and either have to earn like crazy or liquidate to pay taxes. WTF? Tax can be levied on income/profit, consumption and wealth. If you happen to live in a country where there is no wealth tax, do not assume it isn't possible or doesn't exist. And I can assure you taxes on wealth do exist. Whether in the form of a direct tax on bank accounts at the end of a fiscal year (which do exist in some countries), or in say the form of a real estate tax, which is just another tax on wealth. Similarly, some countries do not have a VAT, but that does not mean that taxing of consumption does not exist. It exists in various forms, from VAT to excise taxes and everything in between. Please stop blabbing about stuff you obviously know nothing about. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Drykor Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:57:00 - [37] I'd say no to this. Regardless of the lack of 'experience' grinding, this game already has a harsh grind if you want to pay for your ships. I don't want to be spending time in a GAME just to KEEP my current isk amount. I think it's fine the way it is, except for the tech2 lottery but that is being taken care of now. If you want to be rich in here, you have to work pretty hard, by for example being in an alliance that can hold high level complexes or good ore/npc regions. This is all just fine.
wierchas noobhunter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:59:00 - [38] oki who is flaming and acting not nice to jenny gona get war dec, random gank or other not wery nice stuff tbh STFU noobz hello i am wierchas !!!! i pown yooooo
JourneymanDave devastation mining inc	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:06:00 - [39] Originally by: Bosie Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. I would like to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL taxpayer with many years experience: No. Perhaps the best response ever, and a man after my own heart.
Jack StarMule Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Malachon Draco I wouldn't call the OP Keynesian. The OP tries to directly influence inflation through taxation, Keynesian economics assume a possibility to influence real growth through varying taxation over the economic cycle, which will only indirectly influence inflation (if such policy is succesful). I also think that a Keynesian policy would in all likelyhood increase inflation during a downturn if the policy were effective. The OP seems to be trying to mimic monetary policy through fiscal policy, which I can't directly contribute to any school I know (albeit my knowledge there is rather rusty I admit). I doubt any such school exists tbh. since in RL we do have monetary policy, which is absent in Eve. I must admit he never proclaimed any particular school. I did make a possibly incorrect determination based upon his interventionist attitude that if he in fact has any formal training in economics it would be from a school which believes it has the ability to influence the market in any manner. The Keynesian school is decidedly popular here in the States in our many and varied liberal universities. A shame, really, but I digress. I too agree that Keynesian policies would likely cause an increase in real inflation (not just monetary inflation) thereby causing the amount of time and production required to increase to acquire the same goods. This would be a negative effect on a video game, because you would spend more time in secondary activities in order to participate in the primary activities that you enjoy. My real concern is related to all of the talk of "inflation" both by developers in their blogs and in threads here. I've yet to see any real inflation problems in the game. If anything it appears to be getting easier to acquire goods for use. This is typical of a free market in the real world. Goods and Services are easier to achieve with less work. Production increases any time there is a perceived market for the item. The cost of purchasing an item is constrained to a reasonable profit above the raw material cost. The only exception to this appears to occur in places where artificial scarcity exists. Unlike in the real world, this artificial scarcity can be a good thing, depending on the developers wish to balance the availability of any especially powerful items. Developers have full control over this aspect and should maintain it.
Taran Summers The Merovingians	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:17:00 - [41] Bah. Fuel tanks on all ships. Fuel consumption is adjusted by ship mass. Fuel prices adjusted daily by CCP to deal with inflation. More expensive ships take more cash to fuel. Making it a progressive expense. And you get a new class of ships. Tankers. For doing things like refilling Titans. Or filling up those new fuel silos you'll need at your POS's
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:13:00 - [42] We do have monenatary policy - nerf or control the depreciation of ISKs due to ISKs faucet and it is good in eVe. Keynesian works in eVe because it 1) encourages producers to manufacture goods just in time. Overstocking of goods, warehousing and stockpiling will be taxed under assets. 2) destroys macros because overmining equates to stocking more assets and larger wallets. Assets and wallets are taxed. 3) encourages empire dwellers to PVP because collecting stuffs are taxed eventually. 4) forces players to get rid of items quickly by changing ownerships, lose in combat or do not farm unnecessarily. 5) forces players to own what they need. If monthly GDP goes out of control, eVe bank can increase tax and it would influence players and market behaviour. The foundation of taxation would be used to introduce different kind of taxes to control node lags, etc. If there are too many people in Jita, CCP could introduce hub or empire tax and tax toons on their total days spent in empire over a tax period. Tax is wonderful, isn't it? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Esurnir Amarr Bears Inc FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:38:00 - [43] Eve is free economy, there is no such things as dev intervention there. If you find that your raven is getting more expensive, then produce it ! The mineral price in high end is hitting the dirt, low end is going up. What to do ? Drop mining crockite and take your hulk back to amarr and mine veldspar. If the price of low end mins is going up then it's surely not the fault of macro miners . If the price of mins is going down, and the price of goods is going up, then what do you wait for. Build goodies ! ---- Quote: Thou shall pew pew. Book of Revelation 12, 51
Darina Rea Renua Foundation	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:40:00 - [44] Edited by: Darina Rea on 22/03/2007 21:38:31 It would mean my wallet would be 'in the red' soonish as they say. Consider this, not everyone plays all the time, unlike in RL where you always (want to) have a steady income per month that can be taxed, in EvE sometimes I make lots of millions, sometimes nothing. But my assets will increase, unless my ship gets blown away. So when I do make an income I would not be paying for 1 month, but for all months my assets have just been doing tax collecting for me. This tax idea only encourages people to not have assets lying in places around the cluster, encourages to spend all ISK, not save for that one nice ship, it hits industrials harder then anyone else because they have to keep large supplies of minerals (sure, they make the most aswell). Anyway, a time induced tax will make the buying power of casual players smaller, due to playing and earning habits, and the people who already have the billions of ISK to spend will hardly feel it. Hence, bad idea. - Also I suck at math, but logic is great. _________ The cluster is full of mysteries, all that is needed is the will to find and unravel them. Time is on our side.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:42:00 - [45] Originally by: Frug TAX NEWBIE CORPS Thank you. /signed - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Frug TAX NEWBIE CORPS Thank you. /signed Every entity has to be taxed or the economy can't be balanced. Players in NPC and PC corps must have their wallets and assets taxed. Corp wallets and assets in hangars must be taxed too. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Frug TAX NEWBIE CORPS Thank you. /signed Every entity has to be taxed or the economy can't be balanced. Players in NPC and PC corps must have their wallets and assets taxed. Corp wallets and assets in hangars must be taxed too. No, just normal tax of a low rate in the NPC corps, kthxbye. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Etruscus	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:56:00 - [48] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Frug TAX NEWBIE CORPS Thank you. /signed Every entity has to be taxed or the economy can't be balanced. Players in NPC and PC corps must have their wallets and assets taxed. Corp wallets and assets in hangars must be taxed too. I am pretty sure this idea is simply snark... but just in case it isn't. You can't speak about inflation of some goods and services without speaking about deflation of other goods and services. No comprehensive study of the net change in inflation has ever been studied in eve, much less reported. My hunch is that overall the economy experienced a slight deflation after revelations. Most T1 ships prices are selling for around 5% less then before rev and this doesn't even include the transaction cost (tax) that we all must pay. Some mineral prices are higher. Some mineral prices are lower. Those products which rely on lower end minerals will be relatively more expensive then those using higher end minerals. Inflation isn't necessarily a bad thing. In the real world it is bad because it is cited as the main cause of unemployment in the long run. There isn't such an analogue in eve. That said, one of the major causes of inflation in eve is because players and corporations do not absorb the costs of risk. These costs of risk are simply absorbed into the system of insurance contracts and other risk mitigating vehicles. In my opinion, insurance contracts should be player based. Where contracts are bought and sold on the open market. Where corporations would offer insurance contracts. That said, this isn't likely because it would mean things going boom less often. Lastly, a tax on assets would actually cause inflation. Individuals will avoid this tax by storing their wealth in other vehicles, such as minerals and ships, causing an artificial mineral and ship shortage.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.22 21:59:00 - [49] Originally by: Etruscus Lastly, a tax on assets would actually cause inflation. Individuals will avoid this tax by storing their wealth in other vehicles, such as minerals and ships, causing an artificial mineral and ship shortage. All items in market are valued by moving average. Minerals and ships are assets. They can be valued and they can be taxed. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ansuru Starlancer The Phoenix Rising Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Ronaldson No taxation without representation Dont tread on me I live with property tax, income tax. sales tax, death tax hell more dang taxes than this nation went to war over a tax on assets would mean I would have to work on making isk, key word WORK this is a game I would rather have fun at. making isk isnt something I want to be forced into doing just to keep my ships The taxes that sparked the Revolution amounted to only a couple percent of a merchant's income. They'd commit suicide if they saw what we pay to Uncle Sam today! :D
FreelancerAlpha	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:07:00 - [51] Unbelievable. What vile posts. I like to insulate myself from the truth sometimes, and explain the callous, selfish nature of government taxation away as being the byproduct of thoughtless bureaucracy. Individuals who just want to expand their budget here and there, or close a perceived loophole. Yet here stands such a respected member of the boards, listing as boons of taxation, almost every reason that people hate taxation. It is bad enough that we do not own our characters. To make us pay RL $, then ingame ISK, just to maintain a character would be beyond forgiveness. You may be an economist, but you do not understand humanity at all. If CCP wanted to put in any tax that nibbled at my characters while they lay idle, I would expect (at the very least), more alt slots, the ability to queue training, and the ability to train all slots at once. Even Blizzard reversed their negatively moving ranking methods in WoW. Too many players would fight the backward draw, then burn out and quit. NCsoft modified their negative experience repercussions for pvp as a result of players actively cheating or avoiding certain obstacles/pitfalls so that they wouldn't undo their work. Hell, CCP doesnt even make your character lose the difference in sp between your sp and your clones' sp. Negative movement is very bad.
Genericforumalt Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:21:00 - [52] I know this thread is about being an armchair economist but for THE LOVE OF GOD CAN YOU STOP CALLING IT "eVe"?!
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:24:00 - [53] Taxes won't do anything. Over all value will remain the same, regardless of calling it isk or dollars. A widget is still a widget and will always be worth one widget. The real control over the economy that can be excercised is supply over time. Want prices on X to come down, then release more X per time. No matter how much you "tax", ISK is unlimited. M1 is meaningless in Eve, the money supply is unlimited. All that can be addressed is how fast it is created. If CCP took 10% of everyone's ISK, prces would not move at all, not one bit. If CCP increased Zyd supplies, then Zyd prices would fall ... we can see that first hand. Soon we will see it in t2 as well as invention gets its needed adjustments. Lots of supply is good for Eve. The margins on t1 frigs aren't worth the time to players that can build battleships. But they are worth it to the player that can just now build frigs. Once invention gets going, the margins on t2 ammo won't be worth the time to the player than can produce t2 ships. Supply allows the margins to drop and as such creates oppertunities for lower level players because higher level players will move up to the next level of production / mining / missions whatever. Another good effect of lots of supply is that risk is less expensive, less expensive risk leads to more risk taking, more pew pew, more fun, more folks willing to go out and do something other than poking oles in veldspare rocks, Chibbra as the exception of course. -AS
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:26:00 - [54] I pay sales tax, broker fees, corp tax and who knows what else already, so screw that! I bet your a democrat.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:36:00 - [55] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 22/03/2007 22:36:00 errrm, the idea is sound and all.. but... errr honestly, it would reduce the "fun" value for causal players who cant grind to pay the taxes.... and it means unless you got more than a hours to play a day, you probley have to get rid of everything except a few frigs and a cruiser...to keep the tax bearable... good idea for removing isk from the game.. but .. not a fun one... EDIT: oh and it wouldnt touch the people with GOOD T2 BPOS.. the parts for T2 stuff cost nothing to stock up... they dont over produce anyways (just in time manufacturing) to keep their profits up. and yeah since they (the ones with GOOD T2 bpos, IE: hulk, cerabus...) get insane profit margins for their goods... the tax wont hurt them one bit...but will hurt casual (heck, most people who dont bring in insane bucks..) much much more... would promote elitism =P hehe... -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Dread Phantom Caldari Project-Chaos	Posted - 2007.03.22 22:42:00 - [56] "toons" oh god /shoots self
Redbad Minmatar Be Inspired Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.22 23:17:00 - [57] Edited by: Redbad on 22/03/2007 23:15:35 I am already investing in the new skill: - Tax Evasion V Even more simpeler, just loose a few '0' (zero's) in those large numbers. Problem solved join us today!
Mr Mozzie Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.22 23:30:00 - [58] Edited by: Mr Mozzie on 22/03/2007 23:33:05 Originally by: Jack StarMule I agree that it would be useful for CCP to at least consult economists before making major changes to the economy. That being said, just like Physics, there are many schools of thought surrounding economics. Some better than others at describing certain facets of economy. I personally am a believer of the Austrian School (laissez faire) and the OP here is obviously Keynesian school (interventionist socialist). Each of us has theories regarding economy. Each of us has a different take on what a balanced economy is. How does CCP decide which economic theory is the correct one? Put another way; As a physicist do you subscribe to the String theory camp or the Quantum Mechanics camp? Both have reasonably legitimate ways of looking at the universe. Both come to the observable facts from very different angles. Which is the "right" answer? Unfortunately, you and I both know that we don't have the answer to that question. Likely we're all wrong, on one level or another. I think you misunderstand how physics works. There is no such thing in physics as a quantum mechanics camp, or a string theory camp. Classical mechanics (all of the Newtonian stuff) is really good at explaining the everyday world as we see it. When you get to a much smaller scale it turns out that things become quantum mechanical. The laws of physics don't change, rather quantum mechanical behaviour approaches classical behaviour as size and mass increases. It is a similar situation with string theory and quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics does not describe the structure of the elementary particles (electrons, protons etc) and why they interact. String theory kind of explains these things, even if it is un-testable. But string theory still works where quantum mechanics because its laws once again approach those of quantum mechanics. So like I said, physics isn't divided into camps of people who are arguing over which version of physics is right. It is entirely consistent to use classical mechanics, quantum mechanics and string theory. Moving onto the economics. When I say CCP should hire economists, I do not mean they should hire the type of economist that are members of a certain RL macroeconomic economic policy camps. Economics does not just apply to RL economies, as others have suggested on this thread. It also applies to artificial economies like that of eve. With all due respect to CCP, if they hire economists, they should be ones who have an interest in understanding exotic economies. They should be able to explain to CCP how the eve economy works in laymanÆs terms. Also, they should be able to understand CCP's intent for the game and advise them on the economic consequences of their æinterferenceÆ with the game. Edit 1: didn't change anything... Edit 2: finished a few sentences
Etruscus	Posted - 2007.03.23 01:45:00 - [59] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Etruscus Lastly, a tax on assets would actually cause inflation. Individuals will avoid this tax by storing their wealth in other vehicles, such as minerals and ships, causing an artificial mineral and ship shortage. All items in market are valued by moving average. Minerals and ships are assets. They can be valued and they can be taxed. This is then a disincentive for individuals to invest their time into producing any sort of wealth. They will shift their time from producing pseudo wealth here in Eve to other places, such as Hashem help us, WoW. if your answer is that it will affect everyone equally and there will be no net change, then why bother with the tax? There will be no net change. It serves no real purpose. Not for inflation control, not for anything frankly, accept possibly to encourage investors of time (players) to invest their time elsewhere. Even so, this certainly wouldn't be the case. How could I be reasonably sure that my assets wouldn't be eroded by this tax over time? Let's assume for a moment that I wanted to take a 6 month break, how then would that affect my assets? Would the wealth that I created with my own labor then be seized by the state? Wouldn't this risk of asset of erosion then be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices causing yet more inflation? I dare say it would. Maybe if I get spunky later I'll look up some relevant studies suggesting this fact.
Fenderson OLE Mining Corp Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2007.03.23 01:58:00 - [60] forgive me if this has already been posted but: how to dodge taxes in eve: step 1) buy lots of mega / zyd / morphite / officer and faction mods / etc step 2) anchor a bunch of secure cans in safespot in your favorite system step 3) fill cans from step 2 with stuff from step 1 vioa! instant eve tax shelter. sigs are for the weak
Illuminaty	Posted - 2007.03.23 02:54:00 - [61] So would -10.0 pirates have to pay taxes? Because I'd imagine a visit from the tax collector would go down like Greedo vs Han Solo.
Motorcycle Emptiness	Posted - 2007.03.23 03:46:00 - [62] Originally by: Fenderson forgive me if this has already been posted but: how to dodge taxes in eve: step 1) buy lots of mega / zyd / morphite / officer and faction mods / etc step 2) anchor a bunch of secure cans in safespot in your favorite system step 3) fill cans from step 2 with stuff from step 1 vioa! instant eve tax shelter. not to mention that you'd make money on the raising prices of said minerals
Montague Zooma Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.23 07:21:00 - [63] This thread is taxing my patience.
Aeryn Davenport Claflin Industries	Posted - 2007.03.23 07:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 22/03/2007 08:58:58 My idea on how to balance eVe economy and reduce inflation. Before I present my idea, I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. Q. How to balance the economy and reduce inflation? A. My favourite word, tax. Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? LOL! /sarcasm on Yeah...that's going to happen.... /sarcasm off
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.23 07:58:00 - [65] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 22/03/2007 08:58:58 My idea on how to balance eVe economy and reduce inflation. Before I present my idea, I want to make my post credible by declaring that I am a RL economist with many years experience. Q. How to balance the economy and reduce inflation? A. My favourite word, tax. Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? They would have to come collect, and prey it from my dead clone...which could actually be fun In the overall aspect of things, we play this "Game" to have fun, not to be taxed, like in real life, allready pay to much there Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
Fayn Trak Gallente Myridian Trading Systems	Posted - 2007.03.23 08:10:00 - [66] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Implementation. Have a monthly tax from CCP/eVe bank on wallet and assets. Taxation on assets are done by moving average of value in assets in market over one month. Apply different tax bands on toons with different values in wallet and assets. If inflation is going out of control, adjust interstellar tax rate to balance economy. Awesome idea, isn't it? Not really, It'd be far more awsome ot have more dynamic pricing of isk sinks to take isk out assuming you're view of the economy is isk + the ammount you don't think you should be there = material goods I'm thinking the only imbalance is that as isk devalues the isk sinks have less impact. Also why is it that you view inflation as a problem. A herd of cattle A flock of geese A lot of isk remember when sigs were text?
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 08:28:00 - [67] There was a thread about inflation about 2-3 weeks ago, or rather about the lack of it. The price development on different types of items varies greatly. T1 items prices remains at about mineral +10%, T2 is at production x N, N E Z... Prices of high end minerals are coming down, while low ends are rising, up to a point where mining for mexallon is more profitable than zydrine. T2 markets have a hard cap on produced amount and as demand constantly grows as the playerbase grows the prices of T2 items grow as well. Not inflation, just an unflexible supply, when demand is growing. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Requiem of Hades	Posted - 2007.03.23 08:50:00 - [68] Originally by: Fenderson forgive me if this has already been posted but: how to dodge taxes in eve: step 1) buy lots of mega / zyd / morphite / officer and faction mods / etc step 2) anchor a bunch of secure cans in safespot in your favorite system step 3) fill cans from step 2 with stuff from step 1 vioa! instant eve tax shelter. No. It is fool-proof. You anchor the cans in space, you own them and everything that is stored in them. Anything that belongs to you which are assets in hangar, secure cans, etc. are taxable. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Karanth Gallente Crazy 88's O X I D E	Posted - 2007.03.23 10:10:00 - [69] First off, LOLLERSKATES. Second, since when is Jenny Spitfire in favor of taxing people? I recall more than a few vehement rejections of calls for taxing noob corps, and now you want to tax EVERYONE much more heavily than the most heavy-handed taxation proposed there? I think someone is drunk, or clone-jacked TBH. This is a fighter for the Crazy 88's. It is protecting the assets of the OXIDE Alliance and may attack anyone it perceives as a threat. Threat level: About 60 words per minute I'll see your beer, and raise you a goat kebob- Tirg
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.23 11:26:00 - [70] How about we do away with contracts? After all the only reason one would have to sell a ship there is to avoid the taxes, and broker fee. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Jack Creme	Posted - 2007.03.23 11:45:00 - [71] So, in a nutshell Jenny, the Eve community emphatically says "No" to the taxation described in your post. If Eve inflation exists - and I'd like to see how this is a proven fact - so what? Its not as if we have our pension funds or savings tied up in the Eve economy. The wallet giveth and the wallet taketh away. Isk and the Eve economy has real-life equivalence, its merely the means to the end for playing the game.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.23 12:07:00 - [72] Unrelated Q: WHY, for the love of the lord, do you spell it "eVe"?! --------
Jack StarMule Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.03.23 12:44:00 - [73] Originally by: Mr Mozzie I think you misunderstand how physics works. There is no such thing in physics as a quantum mechanics camp, or a string theory camp. Well, you've definitely got me there! I may not be an economist (or play one on TV) but the closest I have ever come to physics is reading "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "A Brief History of Time". I'm a layman if there ever were one. I will tell you however that much of the available literature to laymen says things like "excluding quantum mechanics" in the process of defining things in string theory, so I suppose it's an easy mistake to make. Even Wikipedia makes that sort of statement. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Moving onto the economics. When I say CCP should hire economists, I do not mean they should hire the type of economist that are members of a certain RL macroeconomic economic policy camps. I'm afraid that when it comes to schooling for Economics, you're stuck with one RL camp or another. They are all very much mutually exclusive. There are VAST contradictions between the different major schools of thought on economics. Now there are some camps that compliment one another, but for the most part they all fall under a Laissez Faire or a Socialist Interventionist umbrella. The US exists in a strange hybrid of the two camps, with more and more regulation being lumped on with startling regularity. IMO, this regulation is not for the best, but it continues to occur. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Economics does not just apply to RL economies, as others have suggested on this thread. It also applies to artificial economies like that of eve. With all due respect to CCP, if they hire economists, they should be ones who have an interest in understanding exotic economies. They should be able to explain to CCP how the eve economy works in laymanÆs terms. Also, they should be able to understand CCP's intent for the game and advise them on the economic consequences of their æinterferenceÆ with the game. That would be a wonderful creature, indeed. I'm sure there are quite a few graduate students who are focused on this sort of thing. Especially with the popularity in recent years of MMO's. An unlimited supply side constrained only by completely controllable metrics is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. My original warning still holds true. If CCP hires an Interventionist focused economist, they will likely ruin the economy. They will certainly cause real inflation through control practices, which will result in more time being spent on secondary (unfun) activities and less time in the primary (fun) activities.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.23 13:12:00 - [74] Originally by: Jack StarMule Originally by: Mr Mozzie I think you misunderstand how physics works. There is no such thing in physics as a quantum mechanics camp, or a string theory camp. Well, you've definitely got me there! I may not be an economist (or play one on TV) but the closest I have ever come to physics is reading "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and "A Brief History of Time". I'm a layman if there ever were one. I will tell you however that much of the available literature to laymen says things like "excluding quantum mechanics" in the process of defining things in string theory, so I suppose it's an easy mistake to make. Even Wikipedia makes that sort of statement. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Moving onto the economics. When I say CCP should hire economists, I do not mean they should hire the type of economist that are members of a certain RL macroeconomic economic policy camps. I'm afraid that when it comes to schooling for Economics, you're stuck with one RL camp or another. They are all very much mutually exclusive. There are VAST contradictions between the different major schools of thought on economics. Now there are some camps that compliment one another, but for the most part they all fall under a Laissez Faire or a Socialist Interventionist umbrella. The US exists in a strange hybrid of the two camps, with more and more regulation being lumped on with startling regularity. IMO, this regulation is not for the best, but it continues to occur. Originally by: Mr Mozzie Economics does not just apply to RL economies, as others have suggested on this thread. It also applies to artificial economies like that of eve. With all due respect to CCP, if they hire economists, they should be ones who have an interest in understanding exotic economies. They should be able to explain to CCP how the eve economy works in laymanÆs terms. Also, they should be able to understand CCP's intent for the game and advise them on the economic consequences of their æinterferenceÆ with the game. That would be a wonderful creature, indeed. I'm sure there are quite a few graduate students who are focused on this sort of thing. Especially with the popularity in recent years of MMO's. An unlimited supply side constrained only by completely controllable metrics is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. My original warning still holds true. If CCP hires an Interventionist focused economist, they will likely ruin the economy. They will certainly cause real inflation through control practices, which will result in more time being spent on secondary (unfun) activities and less time in the primary (fun) activities. I think most of the most controversial parts of RL economic theories don't really apply in Eve. A debate of government intervention vs. laissez faire? Not that likely. Eve has by design full employment and zero base consumption (no meaningful cost associated to living, such as rent, food etc). All consumption is either related to leisure activity (pvp) or is more a matter of investment (ammo for ratting or buying a hulk to mine). As a result social transfers are unneeded and labour markets in the RL sense are non-existent. Which are probably among the most hotly debated issues in RL economics. As long as an economist is not an extreme nutcase on either side of the laissez faire vs government intervention debate, I think you're probably gonna end up with pretty much the same advice, regardless of who you would choose to monitor Eve. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Liliane Woodhead	Posted - 2007.03.23 13:38:00 - [75] Originally by: Etruscus Inflation isn't necessarily a bad thing. In the real world it is bad because it is cited as the main cause of unemployment in the long run. There isn't such an analogue in eve. Hmmm, I think the CCP staff gets unemployed when they tax our collector boxes of rare/never used/dusty items And at all, they have other tools to work with. ever seen a SQL script running ? ;) Sorry Jenny, good arguments but let taxes where they are. IRL .oO( or 0.0 is untaxed ... monaco ... swiss .. Delve ... Stain, French Antilles Island g )
Joebarchuck	Posted - 2007.03.23 13:42:00 - [76] There is a very simple solution to balancing Eve's economy: Reduce DEMAND. Of course there are many ways to do so but the best way is not TAX. TAX is horrible. No the best way is to increase the ships strenght by 25%. This will greatly reduce demand on ships, materials, modules, etc... Thus greating more supply and inducing prices to drop but some amount but not much maybe 10%. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On top of that increasing ships strengh can make it more fun to play in missions and in pvp where strategies to beat the opponent will be more based on electronic warfare strategies rather than the size of guns. Let's suggest this to CCP...
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:12:00 - [77] Someone want to remind me why the economy needs 'fixing'? Almost everything has a built in cap based on seeded item sales. For instance trit has a price cap based on shuttles. Markets work best when you leave them alone.
Joebarchuck	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:21:00 - [78] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Someone want to remind me why the economy needs 'fixing'? Almost everything has a built in cap based on seeded item sales. For instance trit has a price cap based on shuttles. Markets work best when you leave them alone. Simply because everything is so expensive that we need to play hours of missions to buy great tech II modules. This is too much when players start to pvp.
Zegox	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:28:00 - [79] Here's my solution: 1) Require all players to file a real-life tax return on all their EvE transactions for the past year. After tallying up all transactions from the past year, the assessed tax rate will be applied, based on some arbitrary and archaic policy that can only be deciphered by reading thousands of pages of bureaucratic drivel. Players that don't meet their April 15th tax deadline will have their accounts suspended. 2) EvE player base flees in terror - only a few CPAs and madly masochistic people remain. 3) Economy stabilizes from lack of activity - problem solved!
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:28:00 - [80] what abotu my assets stored outside empire space, for example in an IAC station, why should I get taxed on them assets unless the isk was togo to the empire I'm part of iac :). Join The Fight With Promo Today
Jack StarMule Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:54:00 - [81] Edited by: Jack StarMule on 23/03/2007 14:52:45 Edit: Hmm.. Somehow the forum ate my entire reply and just left a quote.
nreisan	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:59:00 - [82] 'tax' implies your under a government or controlling body and helping pay for services. So unless your in empire space and paying for concord its kinda stupid idea. All it will do is act as an Isk sink.
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.03.23 14:59:00 - [83] I'm a Keynesian economist, and not even I would suggest this idea!!! The things that are needed are: Limitations on isk rewards from rats and missions. Basically there is a need to find other ways to reward than straight isk. My suggestion would be in mods/implants/minerals/etc. This reduces the ISK injected into the economy and increases how much is moved around. Insurance HAS to stay for game play purposes. Getting rid of it would be a sure fire way of destroying the player base. Not saying I like it, just that I can see why its there - increasing the cost on it could work though, especially for the higher end ships. Tax. Yes there should be tax, but it doesn't have to be anything new. The existing sales taxes will cover nicely. They just have to be increased to something meaningful. 1% is nothing, especially when you can reduce that with skills. I've trained them to 5 and I barely notice the difference tbh. The level of the tax can alter over time based on analysis. Variable Sales tax by system. Jita got too many Sell orders? Increase the tax till it settles down. Flexible NPC prices. Bar maybe basic skill prices (the ones newbies need), any NPC good or service that sells out should respawn at a higher quantity until a max production level and then respawn at a higher price. Price increase until it stops selling out. No sell out for x period, begins to drop until a min level. Then the amount available drops instead. (juggle the order things happen in to suit û price rise/drop or supply rise/drop - this is just a principle idea) - now, I'm aware this happens to a limited degree, however it appears to be capped and not across the board and supply is not a variable factor. personally I think there should be a simple calculation on the quantity of ISK in the economy, the number of players (thus player/isk ratio) and the rate of injection/drain, with taxation adjusted periodically to bring the ratio back to a pre determined level. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:07:00 - [84] Originally by: Roshan longshot How about we do away with contracts? After all the only reason one would have to sell a ship there is to avoid the taxes, and broker fee. This raises a good point, taxation on the contracts system is prolly needed. -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:18:00 - [85] Originally by: Joebarchuck There is a very simple solution to balancing Eve's economy: Reduce DEMAND. Of course there are many ways to do so but the best way is not TAX. TAX is horrible. No the best way is to increase the ships strenght by 25%. This will greatly reduce demand on ships, materials, modules, etc... Thus greating more supply and inducing prices to drop but some amount but not much maybe 10%. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On top of that increasing ships strengh can make it more fun to play in missions and in pvp where strategies to beat the opponent will be more based on electronic warfare strategies rather than the size of guns. Let's suggest this to CCP... FFS, The prices of T1 items has been declining all the time. If you look at the price history foor example rokhs, hyperions etc: The prices are going down from the initial sittuation (high demand, only very few suppliers) where they cost around 300M, to the current day (demand dropped, saturation of market due to over producing) to the mineral prices, of around 170-200M. The same thing is happening with all T1 items. T2 items have their price go up, because the player base has grown, so the demand is growing, while the supply has a hard cap of how many units can be produced in a limited amount of time, due to the limited amount of BPOs. There can be no market entry for new competitors. And due to the relatively low limit on BPC runs those will primaryly only lower the demand on the market, as inventors will primarily produce for their own use and only dump their surplus on the market, if any. The only way to limit this price growth is to reduce the amount of players. And that is something that is not advantegeus to CCP. The number of released BPOs should be tied to the amount of active subscriptions in the game, and new BPOs should be either put for auction (A combination of RP and isk) or just through lotteries again. I just don't get how decreasing demand increases supply. In the long term according to even the basics of economics it should do the excact opposite. Economics 101. A good market has a high entry and a low exit costs. So the market would funktion better, if the price of BPOs would be increased significantly. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Jack StarMule Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:43:00 - [86] What a cosmic coincidence! Right after replying to this thread, I got this on my RSS Feed: http://blog.mises.org/archives/006419.asp Perhaps we should send a copy to the OP and the devs? Quote: Some topics covered: * Why central planning has never worked and never will * How prices operate in a free market (and why socialist schemes like rent control always backfire) snip * Raising taxes: why it is never "responsible" snip * Plus: Are you a capitalist pig? Take the quiz and find out!
Laboratus Gallente BGG Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:55:00 - [87] An unregulated economy only emphasis the economics of scale in any project and eventually distributes enough wealth to the select few. It leads to those "let them eat cake" kinds of situations and the following backlash. It's all about finding the balance in between a regulated and free market. Neither extreme works at all. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:56:00 - [88] Originally by: Jack StarMule Edited by: Jack StarMule on 23/03/2007 15:12:53 Edited by: Jack StarMule on 23/03/2007 14:52:45 Edit: Hmm.. Somehow the forum ate my entire reply and just left a quote. Edit 2: (Try to retype some of my post) Basically, I agree that many of the RL concepts that are debated by economists have no place in Eve. I think that "Inflation" of M1 (pure cash on hand money) is one of those items that has no place in the debate. I have a correlation from another video game that I play on occassion, FFXI. It used to have a healthy player economy. In the process of attempting to remove RMT from the servers, Square Enix removed most of the gil creation activities from the game. Yet they didn't remove the requirement for gil for things that you still need to perform your jobs appropriately. (tools, medicines, food, ammo etc.) As such you spend an inordinate amount of time preparing to do your job. It is much less fun time and much more work time. The developers of FFXI also added new ways to receive equipment through non monetary means. Now you must expend your effort in game performing those activities if you have any hope of receiving the items that are best for most jobs. You must also compete against others in your group for the same item. This results in extreme grinding of the same task over and over. Even fun activities get very boring if you're doing the exact same thing over and over again. That is true inflation in video games. That should be a major concern for the developers here. Time inflation is the dangerous inflation. It affects your end users in many negative ways. With all of the talk of controlling Isk faucets and forcing the player economy to absorb drops we are dangerously close to a similar situation here. The items would have to regularly be a high demand item of some form to shake loose the Isk from hoarders. The hoarders will be even more careful about their spending if the developers make it even harder to create new Isk. A tax would further exacerbate the problem by unnecessarily harming the user base which can not create the isk necessary to pay the tax. ESPECIALLY if the tax is on already acquired items. Nowhere in the modern world is a purchased consumable taxed more than once (at purchase). Only Real Property (land) is taxed on any recurring basis. Land is also a truly scarce resource. I would indeed avoid the solution of the ever increasing grind. Economies survive on ever increasing productivity, which is unfortunately a direct contradiction with the way most MMOs work. What I think would work is greater benefits of investment to reduce the grind. I.e. introduce that capital lowend miner that will clear whole belts of veldspar-scordite-pyro, and the capital iceminer that gets 4 times more ice per hour than a maxed out Mackinaw. But make them cost 1-5billion a piece, and only usable in lowsec and 0.0, as well as anchored in order to use them. I.e. investment + risk = profit. Which is IMO much better than forcing any kind of grind. As for inflation, I don't see it. Quite the contrary, I see a bit of deflation atm, and it will only increase with T2 invention arriving to drive prices down in that area. Of course CCP did a few things to curb the inflation risk, most notably the absence of bounties for rats in the new regions. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.23 15:58:00 - [89] Originally by: Laboratus An unregulated economy only emphasis the economics of scale in any project and eventually distributes enough wealth to the select few. It leads to those "let them eat cake" kinds of situations and the following backlash. It's all about finding the balance in between a regulated and free market. Neither extreme works at all. Umm, in the RL you would be right as there is limited resources to go around, as well as significant economies of scale, high entry costs, etc. In Eve, resources are practically unlimited, entry costs are minimal and economies of scale barely exist. Only there where there is regulation atm (i.e. the limiting of the number of T2 BPOs) you see excessive profits in Eve. Eve is best served with an free market, unlike the real world where you need regulation. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2007.03.23 16:02:00 - [90] Actually if you want to argue that tech 2 tier items are the inflationary problem, then this has already been fixed. Any good trader and financier knows that the tech 2 BPO market is crashing as we debate this out and that it won't likely recover any time soon with changes to things like invention, new seeds, etc.... And since BPO values are coming down, this makes it easier for newer production plants to get into the market thus increasing supply and bringing costs down. You're already seeing this trend on a few T2 items.
Mantees Gallente Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.03.23 16:10:00 - [91] Originally by: Winterblink Alternately, give us a bank where we can store our iskies, for a more RP feel to the interest concept. An EVE Online bank? What an interesting idea... I could start one -- OGRank.com - EVE Online - MMORPG News
mikerem	Posted - 2007.03.23 16:27:00 - [92] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire We do have monenatary policy - nerf or control the depreciation of ISKs due to ISKs faucet and it is good in eVe. Keynesian works in eVe because it 1) encourages producers to manufacture goods just in time. Overstocking of goods, warehousing and stockpiling will be taxed under assets. 2) destroys macros because overmining equates to stocking more assets and larger wallets. Assets and wallets are taxed. 3) encourages empire dwellers to PVP because collecting stuffs are taxed eventually. 4) forces players to get rid of items quickly by changing ownerships, lose in combat or do not farm unnecessarily. 5) forces players to own what they need. If monthly GDP goes out of control, eVe bank can increase tax and it would influence players and market behaviour. The foundation of taxation would be used to introduce different kind of taxes to control node lags, etc. If there are too many people in Jita, CCP could introduce hub or empire tax and tax toons on their total days spent in empire over a tax period. Tax is wonderful, isn't it? With your vison of what eve should be, im glad you dont have a say in how CCP run it.

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