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All Clear	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:17:00 - [1] Please forgive me if this seems petty or non-constructive... But I've recently been wondering if there is some public record kept of unscheduled 'downtimes' experienced by EVE's subscribers. What I mean is that EVE has a scheduled hourly downtime every day, but often, due to unforeseen circumstances, we the players experience the inconvenience of not being able to login and play when the servers are supposed to be up. It would be interesting to me to see how much unscheduled 'downtime' a subscriber may have suffered, say, over the course of 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, etc. I'm fairly certain that CCP has some record of this, though I suspect it's not publicly available. If so, could we, your customers, get a peek at it... or perhaps just a yearly report? If not, would it be ok if we the players maintained a sticky thread of our own where we were allowed to keep track ourselves? I remember about a year-and-a-half ago, iirc after the Exodus patch, where CCP announced that every subscriber's account would be credited with an additional day due to the long downtimes. Aside from that one announcement, I haven't seen this sort of reasonable step taken by CCP again. I belong to a private racquetball club where I also pay a monthly 'subscription'. Now, if some enterprising earlybird employee decided to open 15 minutes early on a given day, I wouldn't pay more... probably because the early opening wasn't advertised to all customers in advance. But if say the club opened 30 minutes late--everyday--for six months, well, I'd feel pretty entitled to a discount or at least a couple of days being added to my 'subscription'. If, say, a water pipe broke in one of the locker rooms and the club were closed for repairs for three days, what would be the company's appropriate recourse, re. their paying customers? Sure, they could say that fixing the water pipe served all their customers interests and so no recompense would be offered, but wouldn't such a trite and self-serving response damage customer satisfaction? Certainly CCP makes huge efforts to improve, or better said, upgrade this game for competitive purposes... and I'm certain that none of us begrudge them a reasonable amount of downtime for such purpose, but imho, the inconveniences seem to have been stretching to what is beyond reasonable for a professional company to expect of their paying customers. Don't get me wrong, I love EVE and have no interest in leaving anytime soon. I just want a more accurate summary of what and how much I'm paying for. Maybe I'm way off base, or maybe CCP might review a distillation of the community's thoughts here and decide to make an official response. Thank you for your time.
Tom Shandy	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:19:00 - [2] IBTL
Titus Starwalker	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:20:00 - [3] Edited by: Titus Starwalker on 22/03/2007 13:17:43 ...
VanNostrum	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:20:00 - [4] /me points his torch at All Clear Burn the blasphemer!!
Baleorg Gallente Guys of Sarcasm	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:21:00 - [5] actualyl there are not that many unscheduled downtimes.. i remember the patchdeployment before this one, it went VERY smooth and i think the downtime was even shorter... ther ealso was some 12 hour announced downtime and the server was back up after 5-6 hours (with no guarantees though, ti was the network upgrade day) sometimes it crashes, but they are usually restarted quite fast.. and the valar informationsminister will exactly tell what went wrong other gamnes you usualyl hear (if any) "sorry for the inconvience" BTW: A GOOD Cache-Cleaner
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:21:00 - [6] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 22/03/2007 13:17:50 You are paying for an account on the server. Nothing more. Thus your analogy is flawed. IBTL, ofc - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Professor Slocombe	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:22:00 - [7] I dont think its that bad, but I am pretty sure it is all my fault. Everytime I get a spare afternoon, it happens. Moral of the story is, make me work harder! Oh, and IBTL, of course.
Philip Jones Gallente Hostes aliengenti me abduxerunt	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:26:00 - [8] Originally by: VanNostrum /me points his torch at All Clear Burn the blasphemer!! QFT
RaTTuS BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:32:00 - [9] Coldfront's pages -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal \| RaTTuS @ Skills Showroom
Redwolf Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 13:32:00 - [10] Originally by: All Clear Now, if some enterprising earlybird employee decided to open 15 minutes early on a given day, I wouldn't pay more... I'd be willing to bet, excluding sheduled extended downtimes, that CCP is and has managed 23/7 for quite some time now. oh and IBTL :P ---- It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Drachma Golea Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:01:00 - [11] Originally by: All Clear Please forgive me if this seems petty or non-constructive... I belong to a private racquetball club where I also pay a monthly 'subscription'. Now, if some enterprising earlybird employee decided to open 15 minutes early on a given day, I wouldn't pay more... probably because the early opening wasn't advertised to all customers in advance. But if say the club opened 30 minutes late--everyday--for six months, well, I'd feel pretty entitled to a discount or at least a couple of days being added to my 'subscription'. If, say, a water pipe broke in one of the locker rooms and the club were closed for repairs for three days, what would be the company's appropriate recourse, re. their paying customers? Thank you for your time. Fixing things is one thing indeed, but if your racquetball club installed a new bar, a few sauna's some extra fields to play on, they won't refund, they hike up the price, just for your joy of playing, or am i wrong here?
Gner Dechast Gallente KIA Corp	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:15:00 - [12] Originally by: All Clear Please forgive me if this seems petty or non-constructive... You're entitled to your own views and opinions same as everyone Originally by: All Clear I remember about a year-and-a-half ago, iirc after the Exodus patch, where CCP announced that every subscriber's account would be credited with an additional day due to the long downtimes. Aside from that one announcement, I haven't seen this sort of reasonable step taken by CCP again. Me, on my part, don't feel CCP has come even close to the levels that would prompt such compensation. For me downtimes (extented, prolonged) are preferrable way to patch/add hardware/other in incremental steps rather than say weekly patch and wiring bonanza, which would most certaily cause much more ripples and discomfort. I actually take great comfort upon the fact that more hardware is being added to counter the abyssmal lag and lag-induced random weirdness. For these kinds of delays I have all the understanding in the World, it seems (Then again, I recently returned from Another MMO(tm) where technical maintenance and patches sucked to high heavens making anything going on here like milk and honey.... ) ^G
Kappas. Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:24:00 - [13] Originally by: All Clear A wall of text It's in the EULA that you agreed to that CCP don't have to do anything except take money off you, they guarantee nothing. PS. IBTL
Valeo Galaem InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:25:00 - [14] Edited by: Valeo Galaem on 22/03/2007 14:27:01 Well, EVE-China actually has a feature on their web page that does just this. Its a calendar that lists all of the scheduled (and the unscheduled) downtimes as well as a monthly scheduled downtime vs actual downtime tally. If they ever go over a certain number of extra hours of downtime, there is some kind of compensation. http://www.eve-online.com.cn/v2/about_eve/GameServerStatus.asp Not saying that we need compensation for downtime, but having a visible record would be nice for the subscribers. Unfortunately, I would foresee lots of whining if such a feature ever comes out as compensation would be a natural progression. Thar be Pirates You are not authorised to hack into CONCORD's mainframe Your Wallet has been emptied! CONCORD Encryption Methods
Zembla Caldari Divine Retribution	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:25:00 - [15] Edited by: Zembla on 22/03/2007 14:23:13 Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 22/03/2007 13:17:50 You are paying for an account on the server. Nothing more. Thus your analogy is flawed. IBTL, ofc Aha. Let's take this to the extreme. You pay to see a doctor when you're ill. Say you spend $20 on 15 mins of being there. Now, say he pushes his diagnostics etc back to 5 mins, while you still need to pay $20. Would you also so easily push that aside? As I said it's taken to the extreme. I don't fully agree myself, but there's no point flaming the guy who's asking where his money went. <Z>
Zirth Caldari The Black Fleet Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:27:00 - [16] I do agree a bit. The problem in my opinion is that say there's extended downtime, even though it's only for 3 hours extra, you might say you only miss out on 12.5% of a day playing, but what often happens is that I get home at 8PM, and there's extended downtime for 3 hours, and I just goto sleep not playing the entire day, I miss out on an entire day of playing, simply because it's outrageous to think I'm playing at say 2AM. (I've done it before, and many do, but many type of lifestyles, including mine as a student with a job etc it just isn't happening) But then again, that's from a player's point of view. For CPP 3 hours downtime is just 3hours downtime, not an entire day of EVE ruined. Also, I don't even care about a refund. I'd get like what, 5 bucks with extreeeeme downtime of like a week every month? WHOOO! 5 bucks, after insane downtime that'll never happen every month. Besides, I buy my sub with time cards n isk anyway.
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:28:00 - [17] at least they not as bad as dentists, dentists ORDERS you to come back in few months to do business with them
LadyBunny	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:29:00 - [18] Just how many skill points do i give up before i get mad
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Zembla Edited by: Zembla on 22/03/2007 14:23:13 Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 22/03/2007 13:17:50 You are paying for an account on the server. Nothing more. Thus your analogy is flawed. IBTL, ofc Aha. Let's take this to the extreme. You pay to see a doctor when you're ill. Say you spend $20 on 15 mins of being there. Now, say he pushes his diagnostics etc back to 5 mins, while you still need to pay $20. Would you also so easily push that aside? As I said it's taken to the extreme. I don't fully agree myself, but there's no point flaming the guy who's asking where his money went. <Z> Did you sign an agreement stating that the doctor reserves the right to do so, before going to see him? __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:31:00 - [20] Quote: Please forgive me if this seems petty or non-constructive... You're forgiven. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - - "Your weapons deactivate as the eve servers begin to explode."
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 22/03/2007 13:17:50 You are paying for an account on the server. Nothing more. Thus your analogy is flawed. IBTL, ofc Oh thats a crock and you know it. Youre paying for the account AND the ability to use it. Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Zembla Edited by: Zembla on 22/03/2007 14:23:13 Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 22/03/2007 13:17:50 You are paying for an account on the server. Nothing more. Thus your analogy is flawed. IBTL, ofc Aha. Let's take this to the extreme. You pay to see a doctor when you're ill. Say you spend $20 on 15 mins of being there. Now, say he pushes his diagnostics etc back to 5 mins, while you still need to pay $20. Would you also so easily push that aside? As I said it's taken to the extreme. I don't fully agree myself, but there's no point flaming the guy who's asking where his money went. <Z> Listen closely. You are paying for an account. Not time. CCP can switch the servers off permanently right now, and they can keep all the money you've already given them. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:32:00 - [23] Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 22/03/2007 13:17:50 You are paying for an account on the server. Nothing more. Thus your analogy is flawed. IBTL, ofc Oh thats a crock and you know it. Youre paying for the account AND the ability to use it. Read the EULA - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:34:00 - [24] Edited by: w0rmy on 22/03/2007 14:32:02 Originally by: Crumplecorn Oh thats a crock and you know it. Youre paying for the account AND the ability to use it. Read the EULA Use common sense. Would you still be here paying for your accounts, without the ability to use them? Somehow I doubt it. Originally by: Crumplecorn Listen closely. You are paying for an account. Not time. CCP can switch the servers off permanently right now, and they can keep all the money you've already given them. Actually youre wrong there, give VISA a call and find out the facts regarding this Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:46:00 - [25] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 22/03/2007 14:44:58 Originally by: w0rmy Edited by: w0rmy on 22/03/2007 14:32:02 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: w0rmy Oh thats a crock and you know it. Youre paying for the account AND the ability to use it. Read the EULA Use common sense. Would you still be here paying for your accounts, without the ability to use them? Somehow I doubt it. No. Which I why I specified money you already gave them. Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Crumplecorn Listen closely. You are paying for an account. Not time. CCP can switch the servers off permanently right now, and they can keep all the money you've already given them. Actually youre wrong there, give VISA a call and find out the facts regarding this I cannot comment on this, as I honestly do not know if one's credit card company can get back your money if you are denied a service you were not guaranteed. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
ToranagaSama	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:56:00 - [26] We're paying for a SERVICE, not an account. Greatly similar if not completely similar as to the service of an Internet Service Provider. If your ISP were to perform in a similar manner as CCP would you be satisfied? Obviously, not, because your ISP wouldn't be providing the service which you pay and contracted for. Which is virtual, if not literal, 365/24/7 service. Similarly, think of your Cable service, are your paying for an account or the service? When the Cable Co has service disruptions, all ANYONE need do is call Customer Service and request compensation and the you WILL get compensation. It's the law----at least here in the U.S. Though, I strongly suspect that, in most other parts of the world, this is not the case. Which brings me to the important point that what YOU may be paying CCP for in YOUR country, may not necessarily be the same which I pay for in MY country. The reason being that laws and social norms vary, often greatly, from country to country, and within the U.S., from State to State. Regarding the EULA, which is CCP's first line of defense, it may not be worth the paper its written upon. Why? Simple, someone show me a EULA agreement which is universally and equally applicable and enforceable in each and every country in the world. None exists. So, what the EULA means to me is different than what it means to many of you. I believe CCP relies more upon FUD than the EULA; and this thread is full of FUD!
Maam	Posted - 2007.03.22 14:59:00 - [27] It's always like this around patchday. It seems like Eve is "always" down, then things stabalise and run pretty great for the other 95% of the time. However, what you say is not unreasonable and you don't deserve to get flamed for it.
Quick'Trader	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:31:00 - [28] Its just over $0.01 USD per hour unscehduled downtime if you play 23/7. If you dont play 23/7 then its more per hour but then also by definition less of the downtimes will affect you. Don't forget to add in to your calculations the times that the server comes up again in less than the 1 hour daily DT too. Quite often its up in 35 minutes or so.
essex girl	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:38:00 - [29] Originally by: ToranagaSama If your ISP were to perform in a similar manner as CCP would you be satisfied? Obviously, not, because your ISP wouldn't be providing the service which you pay and contracted for. Which is virtual, if not literal, 365/24/7 service. As someone who works for an ISP in the UK I can assure you that our Ts & C's and those of all the ISPs providing consumer services that I'm aware of say something along the lines "We dont guarantee your service will work 24/7 and if it breaks we'll fix it in a reasonable amount of time." I dont know how the law applies in the US but the US society does have a different slant on the law compared to a lot of other countries.
Belloc Slunv Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2007.03.22 15:56:00 - [30] Originally by: essex girl Originally by: ToranagaSama If your ISP were to perform in a similar manner as CCP would you be satisfied? Obviously, not, because your ISP wouldn't be providing the service which you pay and contracted for. Which is virtual, if not literal, 365/24/7 service. As someone who works for an ISP in the UK I can assure you that our Ts & C's and those of all the ISPs providing consumer services that I'm aware of say something along the lines "We dont guarantee your service will work 24/7 and if it breaks we'll fix it in a reasonable amount of time." I dont know how the law applies in the US but the US society does have a different slant on the law compared to a lot of other countries. That's the same in the US. Some people, however, expect service to be countinuous and will call customer service and act like a complete fool to get money back when their service drops for a few minutes. Only reason I know is because my dad yells at the cable company all the time and I have to hear about it all the way over here in Germany, where I'm happy if I have internet for 24 countinuous hours.

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