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Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8738	Posted - 2016.10.11 18:50:39 - [1] - Quote This seems big. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1694	Posted - 2016.10.11 18:52:28 - [2] - Quote And I thought Synthia had a talent for understatement. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Samira Kernher 2866	Posted - 2016.10.11 19:01:06 - [3] - Quote I see.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1669	Posted - 2016.10.11 19:22:33 - [4] - Quote I always had an inkling that I still had a soul somewhere in me. Nice to see that possibility may be validated. Other than that, however, business as usual. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 503	Posted - 2016.10.11 19:26:14 - [5] - Quote A great weight of the unknown has been lifted. I am relieved to know that when I finally leave this world I shall join my fellow Faithful in Paradise. I am renewed in my conviction to fulfill the duties God has placed upon me. I pray my sentiments are shared among the rest of the Faithful capsuleers. Regarding the heretic, I rejoice in the Privy Council's decision and punishment. Molok has poisoned you, Lysus, beyond repair. May you rot for all time. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 464	Posted - 2016.10.11 19:35:41 - [6] - Quote I will have to take the time to read the decision in full and compose my thoughts. However, I think that today the Supreme Sobor has confirmed what we all knew and what we all have seen. God's power is limitless. No mere technology of ours can disrupt, or destroy His order of creation. He made human beings with souls for a purpose, and our soul stays with us when we clone. A great weight has been lifted from Imperial capsuleers this day. A great uncertainty cleared. May God continue to Bless Empress Catiz, the Privy Council, the Theology Council, and all those that lead Holy Amarr.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 554	Posted - 2016.10.11 21:03:54 - [7] - Quote Ah, transhumanism. And just in time it seems! Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Lunarisse Aspenstar Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 975	Posted - 2016.10.11 21:40:21 - [8] - Quote The Theology and Privy Councils has finally weighed in with two, linked messages, concerning Capsuleers in the Empire. First, my heart rejoices as the Council recognized that a Just God could reward the Faithful. Capsuleers in the Empire are a part of the Faithful to be accepted as "embodying souls in communion with the Imperial Rite as the flesh of their birth would speak to us". Second, Capsuleers in the Empire also have the obligations of the Faithful and a failure to follow them will lead to a fate similar to Lysus.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6522	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:13:37 - [9] - Quote Never divorce an Empress - she always gets the house. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Solu Terona Alexylva Paradox 104	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:34:08 - [10] - Quote Let it never be said that the reclaimed can't get **** done. My respect to the Empress Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.
Deitra Vess Non-Hostile Target 1425	Posted - 2016.10.11 23:52:15 - [11] - Quote Think that decision was one Empress too late....
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 595	Posted - 2016.10.12 00:06:04 - [12] - Quote Quote: The Theology Council's top scholars have supported their judgment by analogy with the highly unusual cases of Empress Jamyl I and Lord Aritcio Kor-Azor. In regard to the former case they noted the "miraculous presence" of the Empress's soul in both the body of her birth and the body "given her by divine providence after her first death". Empress Jamyl continuing to serve as an example and changing things for capsuleers even after death. Quote: "embodying souls in communion with the Imperial Rite as the flesh of their birth would speak to us" Big indeed. "What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you." - Empress Jamyl I
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 328	Posted - 2016.10.12 00:32:38 - [13] - Quote Punishment seems too severe for a devoted servant who just lost his liege and couldn't cope with grief in a proper manner.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6525	Posted - 2016.10.12 01:04:44 - [14] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: I see. Special Delivery! One Sammi-Soul. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox 649	Posted - 2016.10.12 01:13:17 - [15] - Quote That seems a little foreboding in the long term. If clones are no longer inherently blasphemous in most circumstances, how long could the sacred flesh doctrine really hold up theologically? What would happen to a society like the Empire if Holders could rule indefinitely, without needing to pay regard to their wider family and succession?
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6525	Posted - 2016.10.12 01:14:50 - [16] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: That seems a little foreboding in the long term. If clones are no longer inherently blasphemous in most circumstances, how long could the sacred flesh doctrine really hold up theologically? What would happen to a society like the Empire if Holders could rule indefinitely, without needing to pay regard to their wider family and succession? I'm guessing a lot of assassination. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2440	Posted - 2016.10.12 01:19:36 - [17] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: I see. Special Delivery! One Sammi-Soul. IIIII officially have a SOOOOUL! (Too.) It's hard to overstate how cheery I am about this, and I'm not even properly a believer. It's just been really depressing being confronted all too often with the idea that not only am I a pathetic soulless little marionette, but that I've always been one for as long as I've existed as a separate being! (I have no memory of a time before I was a clone, to be clear.) I hope you'll be able to draw some comfort from this ruling, Ms. Kernher. I know I will, and I don't even believe in souls in this sense in the first place!
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox 649	Posted - 2016.10.12 01:27:18 - [18] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: I'm guessing a lot of assassination. If it does play out that way, it's not exactly an ideal for a society that bases itself on the ostensible piety of it's rulers. Call me a misanthrope, but I can't see this as anything other then a fairly cynical move to solidify favor in the increasingly important Capsuleer class by the new Empress. But, I won't sneer at those who take vindication from it regardless.
Solu Terona Alexylva Paradox 106	Posted - 2016.10.12 01:36:37 - [19] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: I see. Special Delivery! One Sammi-Soul. IIIII officially have a SOOOOUL! (Too.) It's hard to overstate how cheery I am about this, and I'm not even properly a believer. It's just been really depressing being confronted all too often with the idea that not only am I a pathetic soulless little marionette, but that I've always been one for as long as I've existed as a separate being! (I have no memory of a time before I was a clone, to be clear.) I hope you'll be able to draw some comfort from this ruling, Ms. Kernher. I know I will, and I don't even believe in souls in this sense in the first place! You and me both miss Jenneth. I am by all standards of the faith a heretic. Still its nice to know that if my soul does exist in the form the Orthodoxy would have me believe, I can still influence its judgement when whatever end awaits me comes. Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2442	Posted - 2016.10.12 01:51:57 - [20] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: That seems a little foreboding in the long term. If clones are no longer inherently blasphemous in most circumstances, how long could the sacred flesh doctrine really hold up theologically? What would happen to a society like the Empire if Holders could rule indefinitely, without needing to pay regard to their wider family and succession? It's a needle that needs threading (I don't think anybody wants a single, eternal Amarrian head of state), but that's probably already at least partially handled by the pre-existence of the sacred flesh doctrine.
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox 649	Posted - 2016.10.12 01:59:28 - [21] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: (I don't think anybody wants a single, eternal Amarrian head of state). I would dare to suggest that the current head of state might want it. (Talking in general terms and not about Empress Catiz in particular here; If there's a universal political truth, it's that most people will keep power rather than give it up if they can get away with it.)
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2444	Posted - 2016.10.12 02:14:24 - [22] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Aria Jenneth wrote: (I don't think anybody wants a single, eternal Amarrian head of state). I would dare to suggest that the current head of state might want it. (Talking in general terms and not about Empress Catiz in particular here; If there's a universal political truth, it's that most people will keep power rather than give it up if they can get away with it.) Often, sure. One thing that's a little interesting to me, though, is how far the Amarr have gotten without anybody trying to play that game-- or at least, getting very far with it. One of the consistent surprises of my time here has been finding out about all the little systemic tensions and balances of power. The whole thing's set up like someone spent an AWFUL lot of time and effort working out how to keep abuse of power from ever actually threatening the feudal hierarchy, which goes a long way towards explaining why the Empire's stood for so long. With any luck they've got a few centuries to work out the kinks. Probably they'll take their time about it. The Theology Council seems to be kind of what you get when you make an empowered think tank out of an Empire's worth of top theologians who probably have an average age north of 200 standard years and the pragmatic life experience to go with it. They're not exactly amateurs at this.
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 472	Posted - 2016.10.12 02:39:26 - [23] - Quote The Supreme Sobor are the best theologians anywhere, and the amount of brain power, knowledge, and experience the Theology Council as a whole can bring to a problem is simply staggering.
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 506	Posted - 2016.10.12 03:22:32 - [24] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Punishment seems too severe for a devoted servant who just lost his liege and couldn't cope with grief in a proper manner. Disagree. One does not repeatedly after being warned numerous times by The Order to remain silent continue to spout heresy and expect to walk away without severe consequences. He not only dishonored himself but the House of Kor-Azor as it's representative. Most of us have had to grieve for our respective Heirs. If this is how he opts to cope with such grief he was not fit to be a Holder to begin with. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6527	Posted - 2016.10.12 04:14:02 - [25] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: I'm guessing a lot of assassination. If it does play out that way, it's not exactly an ideal for a society that bases itself on the ostensible piety of it's rulers. Call me a misanthrope, but I can't see this as anything other then a fairly cynical move to solidify favor in the increasingly important Capsuleer class in the Empire by the new Empress. But, I won't sneer at those who take vindication from it regardless. I doubt that it will take the race that came up with Shathol-syn very long to concoct an orderly codex for legal assassination that takes all the guesswork and collateral damage away. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Samira Kernher 2869	Posted - 2016.10.12 04:19:39 - [26] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Call me a misanthrope, but I can't see this as anything other then a fairly cynical move to solidify favor in the increasingly important Capsuleer class in the Empire by the new Empress. This is what worries me. The timing is convenient.
Synthetic Cultist Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 555	Posted - 2016.10.12 05:22:49 - [27] - Quote This is an Interesting Statement, that I shall Discuss with my Religious Advisers, as it has Quite Profound Implications. Gwen Ikiryo wrote: That seems a little foreboding in the long term. If clones are no longer inherently blasphemous in most circumstances, how long could the sacred flesh doctrine really hold up theologically? What would happen to a society like the Empire if Holders could rule indefinitely, without needing to pay regard to their wider family and succession? There are Several Potential Outcomes. 1. Deposing the Incumbent through Scheming - This is Quite Common already. 2. Expansionism of the Empire to Accommodate the Landless Nobility - This has happened in History quite Often. 3. A Law Specifying that One can have Immortality or Political Power, but not Both - This would require a new branch of Inquisitors. Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol. It is Written.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2506	Posted - 2016.10.12 05:42:25 - [28] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Samira Kernher wrote: I see. Special Delivery! One Sammi-Soul. IIIII officially have a SOOOOUL! (Too.) It's hard to overstate how cheery I am about this, and I'm not even properly a believer. It's just been really depressing being confronted all too often with the idea that not only am I a pathetic soulless little marionette, but that I've always been one for as long as I've existed as a separate being! (I have no memory of a time before I was a clone, to be clear.) I hope you'll be able to draw some comfort from this ruling, Ms. Kernher. I know I will, and I don't even believe in souls in this sense in the first place! I guess it falls to me to be the voice of dissent on that score. Not only is this a fairly crass political move to curry favor with the capsuleer class, it dovetails in solidly with the Empress's announced plans to push for more capsuleersGÇöand to push for those capsuleers to be directed not toward their own self-determination, but to be strongly encouraged to "support the Golden Fleet". We all know capsuleer vessels require a smaller crew than baseliner vessels. When you're planning a significant military build-up, and part of those plans is using "the largest expansion to our pod pilot training program ever conceived" to provide "tens of thousands more capsuleers", well, it doesn't take a genius to see that you need to provide a loophole to the implications of the Sacred Flesh doctrine. It's blatantly being done in order to stretch the 'support' manpower as far as possible. If I did believe in the Amarr concept of a soul, this kind of cheap pandering wouldn't reassure me at all. Just the opposite. This speaks nothing of actual deliberation, but rather of the willingness of the Theology Council to say whatever is politically expedientGÇöor whatever will give the extremely wealthy Empress who is in a position to offer any number of rewards whatever cover she needs to grease the wheels of her military/industrial plans.
Utari Onzo Pentag Blade Curatores Veritatis Alliance 1422	Posted - 2016.10.12 06:43:10 - [29] - Quote About bloody time this argument was put forth. I look forward to seeing if it is upheld and enters doctrine proper, but for now I am satisfied where this is going. As for Lysus, his punishment is well deserved. It's one thing to claim to be stricken with grief, it's another to behave in such a deplorable manner before the Empress herself and the general public. The doors opened for him once, they will not open for him a second time. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Veikitamo Gesakaarin Noticed. 1999	Posted - 2016.10.12 07:05:40 - [30] - Quote Might as well just overturn the 105 Heideran's Decree and let capsuleer Holders have as big a space fleet as they need through retainers while she's at it. I'm sure all the Tash-Murkon Holders would love that too. Kickstart that Imperial military-industrial complex.
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 472	Posted - 2016.10.12 07:38:58 - [31] - Quote I will just point out that the question of clones and souls has been argued for a very long time. Empress Catiz likely told them to just hurry up and make a decision already. If she wanted to issue a proclamation that clones have souls, she doesn't actually need the Supreme Sobor to issue an advisory position. She can just do it.
Skyweir Kinnison Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 287	Posted - 2016.10.12 07:51:00 - [32] - Quote As a politician myself, I must admit to some envy as to how immutable and sacrosanct the very Word of God remains for self-interest, yet how astonishingly malleable and modern it becomes for self-interest. Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
Samira Kernher 2870	Posted - 2016.10.12 07:57:38 - [33] - Quote Alizebeth Amalath wrote: I will just point out that the question of clones and souls has been argued for a very long time. Empress Catiz likely told them to just hurry up and make a decision already. If she wanted to issue a proclamation that clones have souls, she doesn't actually need the Supreme Sobor to issue an advisory position. She can just do it. But she's aware that she lacks the theological weight that the Theology Council has. She's not well-supported in traditional religious circles. It's politically advantageous to have the Theology Council declare it first and then accept its resolution after. They have been arguing it for a long time. And perhaps it was a decision in the making long before this already. But it still comes at a time very convenient for Her Imperial Majesty's aims.
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox 650	Posted - 2016.10.12 09:26:34 - [34] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Often, sure. One thing that's a little interesting to me, though, is how far the Amarr have gotten without anybody trying to play that game-- or at least, getting very far with it. One of the consistent surprises of my time here has been finding out about all the little systemic tensions and balances of power. The whole thing's set up like someone spent an AWFUL lot of time and effort working out how to keep abuse of power from ever actually threatening the feudal hierarchy, which goes a long way towards explaining why the Empire's stood for so long. With any luck they've got a few centuries to work out the kinks. Probably they'll take their time about it. The Theology Council seems to be kind of what you get when you make an empowered think tank out of an Empire's worth of top theologians who probably have an average age north of 200 standard years and the pragmatic life experience to go with it. They're not exactly amateurs at this. I hope you don't mind me being a little blunt, but I think "they'll figure it out" might be giving the Amarrian system of government a little more credit then it rightly deserves. It's undeniable that, for the greater part of their history, the Empire was an extremely stable and reliably self-correcting system, despite it being based on a relatively simple system of government. But I don't think I'd be being unreasonably critical to say it has not done much to prove itself adaptive to shake-ups. Since it ceased to be (from it's perspective) the sole dominant power in space, it's absolutely collapsed in size and relative influence, and it's fared even worse in the Capsuleer era, where things have been changing and developing much more rapidly. To the point that the average life expectancy of an occupant on the Throne is being soundly trounced by the terms of Federal Presidents. I would think that part of a reason the Empire has lasted so long - And indeed, why feudalism works, when it does - Is because it's been a system that gone out of it's way to reward patience. No one powerful (certain suspiciously-young caldariphiles excepted) wants to rock the boat with potentially destabilizing ambition because they know it'll only harm the whole system, and when the older generation passes on, they'll get their turn anyway. That feeling has probably already been harmed by the political shakeups. What happens when it flies completely out the window? The Empire has proved it can sail more steadily than any other with gentle winds, but in a storm, I haven't seen much to give me the impression it's invulnerable to cracking on the rocks.
Yarosara Ruil Haighare Pirates 650	Posted - 2016.10.12 10:22:12 - [35] - Quote Does this mean I have a soul now? I wonder if I can pawn it in exchange for lab equipment...
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 672	Posted - 2016.10.12 11:31:38 - [36] - Quote A warning to all of you who are happy at your, uh, ensoulment. Souls can be sent to Hell. Most of the souls of the people posting in this thread will be.
Maria Daphiti PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 200	Posted - 2016.10.12 13:01:22 - [37] - Quote Nauplius wrote: A warning to all of you who are happy at your, uh, ensoulment. Souls can be sent to Hell. Most of the souls of the people posting in this thread will be. If I were you, I [Nauplius] would be the one really worried. You've gone it alone in your pseudo-theology. Are you sure you -alone - are right and everyone else is wrong?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2508	Posted - 2016.10.12 13:28:11 - [38] - Quote Alizebeth Amalath wrote: I will just point out that the question of clones and souls has been argued for a very long time. Empress Catiz likely told them to just hurry up and make a decision already. If she wanted to issue a proclamation that clones have souls, she doesn't actually need the Supreme Sobor to issue an advisory position. She can just do it. And that is precisely what makes the timing suspect, Your Holiness. If this had been a question unconsidered, it could easily be said that the decision was asked for, and reached swiftly. That it is a topic that has been argued for so long points to large volumes of treatises on both sides having been written, studied, scoffed at, rebutted, ignored, re-examined, worried over, and mulled upon at length. It is an issue with significant consequences for the Empire and its people: if clones do not have souls, then who in their right mind would give theirs up to spend an eternity as a husk? If they do, though, then they become a way to cheat at sin and virtue. Be as bad as you like, your soul will escape judgment as long as the medbays stay on. You'll have plenty of time to repent later. Immortality, even only perceived immortality, has a way of making even the worst transgressions seem... negligible. Especially when they're just variations on a theme that we regularly tell ourselves is just fine: As pirate-hunting numbers in Delve solidify, we're on-track for destroying 300 million Blood Raider ships this year. How many baseliners will that be? How many baseliners do capsuleers all across both Null and the Empires kill in a year? Many of them are haulers, convoying together with the folks who hired them. Non-combatants. All those lives, we take, and we end without a thought. And you wonder why members of Rote thought nothing of killing one particular baseliner? This is what immortality breeds. This is what this decision endorses: "Be as vile as you like. There will be time to atone." -A Message from the Theocracy Council.
Letizzia Omanid Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 9	Posted - 2016.10.12 14:03:34 - [39] - Quote A long overdue statement of what the Faithful have known to be true. God is all powerful. No bit of technology can undo what He has gifted. You soul will always be with you.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2447	Posted - 2016.10.12 14:33:18 - [40] - Quote Speaking from a small bit of personal experience, Ms. Arrendis, our alleged immortality is a little overrated. I didn't make it ten years. Also, the average capsuleer career isn't exactly forever. Also, also, the Amarr aren't exactly all-forgiving. It's not quite like you can live anything down if you just live long enough. Aside from the existence of cleansing pits (which I still haven't seen and am dreadfully curious about but not quite THAT curious), there's also that bit about only knocking on the gates of Paradise once. If you leave, I mean, really leave, they don't let you come back. (It's one of the reasons they seem to be okay with me honestly being a heathen: better that I remain at a distance until really ready than that I come to the door, knock, and then leave again.)
Persephone Alleile Nocx Initiative Moist. 172	Posted - 2016.10.12 15:46:23 - [41] - Quote Hmm, too bad my mother doesn't subscribe to the Amarr faith. She still considers me to have died years ago when I became a capsuleer and believes my soul has already migrated to it's next incarnation.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2510	Posted - 2016.10.12 15:56:55 - [42] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Also, also, the Amarr aren't exactly all-forgiving. Garkeh Khanid defied the direct edict of the Emperor, acted in contravention of the policy of the Sacred Flesh, stole a massive amount of the Empire's military power and stood athwart the accepted and official 'will of God' for centuries, and then was welcomed back into the fold and given an express ride to 'paradise', explicitly. If you've got enough money and enough power to offer them, the Amarr have proven they'll forgive anything.
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 328	Posted - 2016.10.12 16:20:47 - [43] - Quote Mitara Newelle wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Punishment seems too severe for a devoted servant who just lost his liege and couldn't cope with grief in a proper manner. Disagree. One does not repeatedly after being warned numerous times by The Order to remain silent continue to spout heresy and expect to walk away without severe consequences. He not only dishonored himself but the House of Kor-Azor as it's representative. Most of us have had to grieve for our respective Heirs. If this is how he opts to cope with such grief he was not fit to be a Holder to begin with. If you may Lady Newelle. There is a difference between justice and drastic punishment. It would be foolish to argue that insolence and breaking the code of demeanor should go unpunished. One thing is to strip accused of his rank and his fief and completely different thing to brand devoted servant who just lost his liege, the servant that fought with such zeal and devotion for his lord a blasphemer and a heretic. I would like to draw your attention to two precedents that happend in YC 105, one during inauguration of His Greatness Doriam II and actions of Fleet Admiral Sulei Manatir in service of Sarum Family, and another was a response to Stavros's tactless criticism. It is also good to remember The Word of God that states "The Mercy of our Emperor is Limitless. His Rule is Benign and Righteous. His Love is Perpetual.". So in consideration with everything that transpired and all details kept in mind it would be a welcome sight to see Her Holiness benign and righteous judgment without any obstructions from St. Tetrimon or Privy Council. All of this of course if accused understands his insubordinate behavior and plea for forgiveness.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2449	Posted - 2016.10.12 16:22:21 - [44] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Aria Jenneth wrote: Also, also, the Amarr aren't exactly all-forgiving. Garkeh Khanid defied the direct edict of the Emperor, acted in contravention of the policy of the Sacred Flesh, stole a massive amount of the Empire's military power and stood athwart the accepted and official 'will of God' for centuries, and then was welcomed back into the fold and given an express ride to 'paradise', explicitly. If you've got enough money and enough power to offer them, the Amarr have proven they'll forgive anything. See, you keep asking for solid, enduring, and inviolable rules, Ms. Arrendis. That's not what I admire about it, though. The Empire seeks to be the Kingdom of God in this world, but it's a nation of humans-- frail, fallible, prone to weaknesses of every kind. It has to be designed to allow for that, and so it is. The Amarr faith has been in a state of metamorphosis for basically its entire history, and there's a lot of its doctrine that's deeply pragmatic (take the Sacred Flesh itself, a doctrine kind of transparently designed to forestall entrenched gerontocracy). There's tension here, but it's tension by design. Principle is important, but it mustn't, itself, be allowed to be a source for disaster. When needs must, needs must. Sometimes it's necessary to do what needs doing, and leave God's judgment to God. Nothing as rigid as you're imagining could have endured so long. Durability in the face of history-- that's what I admire.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2878	Posted - 2016.10.12 16:32:04 - [45] - Quote It is highly unwise to speak about immortality for those who exist for way less time so far than an average baseliner. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2450	Posted - 2016.10.12 16:35:28 - [46] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: It is highly unwise to speak about immortality for those who exist for way less time so far than an average baseliner. Your definition of death isn't one everyone shares, though, Ms. Kim. (I agree, though-- we're pseudo-immortal at best, even while we're active.)
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2511	Posted - 2016.10.12 16:39:26 - [47] - Quote Openly advertising their corruption and insistence that there is One Truth you must obeyGÇöunless you can afford to pay them to set it asideGÇöisn't a virtue in any society I'm aware of, Aria. Quote: Principle is important, but it mustn't, itself, be allowed to be a source for disaster. When needs must, needs must. Sometimes it's necessary to do what needs doing, and leave God's judgment to God. Nothing as rigid as you're imagining could have endured so long. Principle is a thing society must uphold. In the kinds of situations you're presenting, the responsible and moral thing to do is for individuals to take the action they must, and when the crisis has passed, they must acknowledge that those actions were in contravention of the principles their society expects of its members, and submit themselves to judgment for their criminal acts. At that point, society can choose to be merciful, but there must be an acknowledgment of the offense. That is not the case with Khanid. At no point was wrongdoing acknowledged. At no point was there even an offering of regret. In a dire situation where terrible things must be done to avert worse disaster, I would at least expect that: at least an offering of 'I do not regret doing what was necessary, but I do regret the necessity itself'. Instead, there was nothing. Whatever might have been offered privately, that addresses only the personal transgression of Lord and Liege, not the greater transgression against society. All things considered, this latest development only reinforces that the individuals tasked with providing the highest levels of moral guidance are themselves corrupt and easily bought. In light of that, how can any of their decisions be trusted to be anything but self-serving?
Samira Kernher 2871	Posted - 2016.10.12 16:47:38 - [48] - Quote Arrendis is spot on. If Amarr does not uphold the principles of the faith, then we do not deserve our Empire. Better to collapse than to continue in sin. Stability for stability's sake is worth nothing. The choice to allow Khanid to return to the Empire and to participate in the Succession Trials (for a second time) did much to erode the confidence many people once had in those who are supposed to be our betters. That decision now taints all forthcoming decisions like this Exhortation.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2452	Posted - 2016.10.12 17:03:07 - [49] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Principle is a thing society must uphold. You say this, and yet I'm aware of not one long-lasting society that does. Not. One. The place where you really slander the Amarr, though, is where you suggest this happened easily. Consider what they got for allowing King Khanid his chance to claim the throne. They pretty much got the Khanid Kingdom back, bloodlessly. That's something no one had managed at all. A more than fair price for allowing King Khanid a somewhat outside chance at the throne and then letting him die with honor. This world is not kind to idealists, Ms. Arrendis. It's not very kind to pure pragmatists, either, eventually (what goes around comes around, etc.-- the Sani are as purely pragmatic as they come, and THEIR civilizations tend to go to bits in a handful of generations at best. See, e.g., the Takmahl). The best arrangements seem to involve a careful blending and balance of the two, and the Amarr are really quite good at it. (And always have been. Sorry, Ms. Kernher-- the experience of the Ealur, among others, suggests that sin being tolerated here and there isn't exactly new to the Empire.)
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1694	Posted - 2016.10.12 17:28:02 - [50] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: This world is not kind to idealists, Ms. Arrendis. It's not very kind to pure pragmatists, either, eventually (what goes around comes around, etc.-- the Sani are as purely pragmatic as they come, and THEIR civilizations tend to go to bits in a handful of generations at best. See, e.g., the Takmahl). Read my award-winning History of the Takmahl Empire. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 598	Posted - 2016.10.12 17:37:57 - [51] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: The choice to allow Khanid to return to the Empire and to participate in the Succession Trials (for a second time) did much to erode the confidence many people once had in those who are supposed to be our betters. That decision now taints all forthcoming decisions like this Exhortation. If he had won I would agree with you. His death and the return of the kingdom to its place in the Empire is a victory though. It is the duty of the faithful to follow when they do not understand and trust in the result. God's will was done in the end even though for many months anyone would have doubted his return and the decision to allow it. Erosion of confidence is exactly what happened but in the end, Jamyl's decision proved to be wise. "What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you." - Empress Jamyl I
Samira Kernher 2871	Posted - 2016.10.12 17:55:25 - [52] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: You say this, and yet I'm aware of not one long-lasting society that does. Not. One. And this is why most societies fail, morally. Quote: Consider what they got for allowing King Khanid his chance to claim the throne. They pretty much got the Khanid Kingdom back, bloodlessly. That's something no one had managed at all. A more than fair price for allowing King Khanid a somewhat outside chance at the throne and then letting him die with honor. We got it back in a way where it: -Doesn't have to change -Doesn't have to be punished for its actions -Is able to be a member while also enjoying its special independent qualities -Is able to spread its twisted ideals to us It needed to be Reclaimed. But we didn't Reclaim it. We brushed its sins under the rug and forgave it. There is more to creating the Kingdom of God than simply expanding our borders on a map. Quote: (And always have been. Sorry, Ms. Kernher-- the experience of the Ealur, among others, suggests that sin being tolerated here and there isn't exactly new to the Empire.) It isn't. And that tolerance is something that needs to change. Ayallah wrote: His death and the return of the kingdom to its place in the Empire is a victory though. It is the duty of the faithful to follow when they do not understand and trust in the result. Any victory won through sin is no victory. But yes, I do follow. Events have simply made it very difficult to trust.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6534	Posted - 2016.10.12 17:56:29 - [53] - Quote New Empress, New rules. What amazes me are the number of you who believe that the Empress has a divine mandate from heaven to rule in the manner she believes is best but now question those changes. God didn't elect a conservative candidate, he elected one who is likely to depart from the past. That Empress is now acting in precisely the way one would expect. If it has been God's plan that the Empire suffer for a few generations because of adherence to certain principles, why would you not expect a countervailing period where the Empire now changes those policies and enjoys some prosperity therefore. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1679	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:10:28 - [54] - Quote Oh, this is rich. A member of Goonswarm giving a lecture about political expediency, all the while willing serving in a fascistic dictatorship that thrives on propaganda and the perpetuation of the myth of the Mittani and his greatness. Save your false concerns for your own 'empire', I hear it needs a bit of help. Ms. Kernher, I strongly suggest that you cease doubting the motivations and validity of Theology Council exhortations in public and trust in the sacred processes of their office. If they truly believed clones and capsuleers were not worthy of acknowledgement by the Imperial Rite, they could surely keep this matter in limbo as they have for so long, despite the Empress's suggestions. I do not need to remind you that they are an independent body that interprets and maintains the Scripture, and they fulfill that purpose quite well. I also suggest that you stop doubting the judgement of the Empress, as that is not a healthy habit to get into, especially after having a coronation marred by a rebellion. I am going to clue you both into a little secret you both are probably bright enough to figure out yourself but are conveniently ignoring so you can complain: capsuleers are the future of warfare. The Empire clearly recognizes they are the future of warfare, and that to survive she will need to rely more heavily upon them in the future. Now, this is the practical argument to make. God had shown the capsuleer as the new dominant instrument of war. If the Empire does not use them, it will fall at their hands. Does that mean God wills the Empire is to fall in the face of an onslaught of soulless abominations? Somehow I doubt that. What this exhortation suggests is that cloned people are exactly that - people. We are not demons, and we are not sefrim. We are people, with all of their failings and obligations, now including the obligation to abide by the Amarr faith. This is not a freeing suggestion, this is placing the burden of human morality back upon us. We have souls that may fall or be damned, and it is up to us to take care of those souls. It is also now the responsibility of faithful capsuleers to bring the word to others, as they may now be saved as we have been. Basically, it means we behave exactly as we have been already, but now with certainty that what we are doing is not a futile exercise. In summary, God apparently does not consider us as special. He expects us to abide by the laws set forth to all humanity. How is this even a revelation? Accept this chance to be saved. You are foolish if you dig your heels in and refuse to believe you are responsible for yourself just because you are a capsuleer. You are a moral, thinking, human being that just happens to have been re-made through technology. Your power and ability to temporarily escape death do not exempt you from anything but mortal laws - God's law still hunts your head if you fail to abide by it. I, for one, welcome this. The rest of you, perhaps not, but today I am reminded of a particular bit of Scripture that describes the hopefully soon to be confirmed place of faithful and unfaithful capsuleers everywhere: "So the Lord sent forth the Chosen, to bring forth the light of faith And those who embrace his love Shall be saved by his grace For we are his shepherds in the darkness His Angels of Mercy. But those who turn away from his light, And reject his true word Shall be struck down by his wrath For we are his retribution incarnate His Angels of Vengeance" - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45 We can be Angels of Mercy or Angels of Vengeance in the coming age. Pray you allow us to be merciful. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2512	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:17:20 - [55] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: You say this, and yet I'm aware of not one long-lasting society that does. Not. One. So? Societies are collections of living things, no different than a colony of ants, a herd of cattle, or any other. They are born. They grow. They live. And they die. And that is right. That is proper. It is the natural order of things. Quote: The place where you really slander the Amarr, though, is where you suggest this happened easily. Consider what they got for allowing King Khanid his chance to claim the throne. They pretty much got the Khanid Kingdom back, bloodlessly. That's something no one had managed at all. A more than fair price for allowing King Khanid a somewhat outside chance at the throne and then letting him die with honor. Princples are not a business transaction, Aria. 'Consider what they got'... only proves my point. If you offer them enough money and power, they will give you whatever you like. If the people who tell you what is virtue are corrupt, how can you believe them on anything? Quote: This world is not kind to idealists, Ms. Arrendis. No, Aria, the universe is not kind at all. Nor is it cruel. It simply is. The universe knows no moral compass. That is a human invention. And corruption and graft are by their very nature anathema to it. It is why so many of us in the sovereign powers of nullsec recognize that the necessities of realpolitik will make monsters of us all, over time. It is why we, unlike the Empire, do not claim to be the agents of supremely virtuous Divine Will. It is in that claim of moral authority that these moves of graft, of moral compromise, of realpolitik trumping principle become hypocrisy, and it is that hypocrisy that is offensive to many, and an insult to all who follow themGÇöwhether they perceive the insult, or not. It is that hypocrisy, that clear and obvious abdication of their moral function, that should make it obvious that no, the duty of the faithful is not to blindly follow the edicts of openly corrupt men, but to seek their own understanding of God and morality, and obey that. Pieter Tuulinen wrote: New Empress, New rules. What amazes me are the number of you who believe that the Empress has a divine mandate from heaven to rule in the manner she believes is best but now question those changes. How fortunate, then, that not all of us who question the sincerity of this decree believe in her.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1683	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:29:02 - [56] - Quote Arrendis wrote: It is that hypocrisy, that clear and obvious abdication of their moral function, that should make it obvious that no, the duty of the faithful is not to blindly follow the edicts of openly corrupt men, but to seek their own understanding of God and morality, and obey that. Pieter Tuulinen wrote: New Empress, New rules. What amazes me are the number of you who believe that the Empress has a divine mandate from heaven to rule in the manner she believes is best but now question those changes. How fortunate, then, that not all of us who question the sincerity of this decree believe in her. Oh, look, I think I spotted the first one to be an Angel of Vengeance towards. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2512	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:30:09 - [57] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Oh, this is rich. A member of Goonswarm giving a lecture about political expediency, all the while willing serving in a fascistic dictatorship that thrives on propaganda and the perpetuation of the myth of the Mittani and his greatness. Save your false concerns for your own 'empire', I hear it needs a bit of help. Nonsense. We're not fascistic at all. We're a socialist totalitarian dictatorship. We're also doing just fine. Really, Aldrith, you hear a lot of things. It's a pity you never listen to the ones that are true. Quote: I am going to clue you both into a little secret you both are probably bright enough to figure out yourself but are conveniently ignoring so you can complain: capsuleers are the future of warfare. The Empire clearly recognizes they are the future of warfare, and that to survive she will need to rely more heavily upon them in the future. Now, this is the practical argument to make. God had shown the capsuleer and clone soldier as the new dominant instruments of war. If the Empire does not use them, it will fall at their hands. Does that mean God wills the Empire to fall in the face of an onslaught of soulless abominations? Somehow I doubt that. Obviously, Capsuleers are the future of warfare. Water's still wet, too. Neither of these has anything at all to do with God sticking his tongue in the ears of the head of state or the Theology Council. If anything, this clearly demonstrates there's no divine guidance at work, just a bunch of people, making it up as they go along. Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Oh, look, I think I spotted the first one to be an Angel of Vengeance towards. I'm in 9CG6-H, only 7 jumps out of the Empire's vassal-state run by House Khanid. Feel free to bring some friends along.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1686	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:36:35 - [58] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Obviously, Capsuleers are the future of warfare. Water's still wet, too. Neither of these has anything at all to do with God sticking his tongue in the ears of the head of state or the Theology Council. If anything, this clearly demonstrates there's no divine guidance at work, just a bunch of people, making it up as they go along. Arrendis, I know exactly what you are doing. I also know exactly what you want. You want the Empire to fail. You want it to burn, and you just have a fancy way of expressing that desire. You are not calling out a hypocrisy. You are upset that the Empire might counter the power of capsuleers by incorporating them fully into its society. That is a threat to you, and to every null power out there, including yours. And you do not want that to happen, so you cast doubt upon this decision because you want to sway more hesitant Amarr to resist this change. I get it. I understand. You do not give a damn about Amarr purity or morality, you give a damn about taking advantage of the sense of purity and morality. Shut it. You have no business here. Your words are false, your manipulative skinks**t is old. But now I can be confident your enfeebled soul is going to pop out of existence when you die for the last time, so I'm not too worried about you. I do worry about those you are trying to corrupt, however. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Samira Kernher 2872	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:37:56 - [59] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: I do not need to remind you that they are an independent body that interprets and maintains the Scripture, and they fulfill that purpose quite well. I also suggest that you stop doubting the judgement of the Empress, as that is not a healthy habit to get into, especially after having a coronation marred by a rebellion. The judgments of the Theology Council, and the Empress, must be doubted. We must all be doubted, at all times. It is our duty to prove our worth before God. The one whose arrogance believes their test already passed risks being cast down from Heaven at their Final Judgment. No one is guaranteed entry. If the Theology Council and the Empress are doing God's will then blessed be they, and they do not need anyone to defend them. But they must be challenged, and they must prove themselves worthy, like we all must. We've given a free pass to sinners for too long, simply because they can hide behind their titles or their blood. Which test reveals more of the soul, the test that a man will take to prove his faith, or the test that finds the man who believed his faith already proven? If you know this answer, then you also know which of these challenges bear the greatest penalty for failure. -Missions 5:14 Quote: I am going to clue you both into a little secret you both are probably bright enough to figure out yourself but are conveniently ignoring so you can complain: capsuleers are the future of warfare. The Empire clearly recognizes they are the future of warfare, and that to survive she will need to rely more heavily upon them in the future. Now, this is the practical argument to make. God had shown the capsuleer as the new dominant instrument of war. If the Empire does not use them, it will fall at their hands. Does that mean God wills the Empire is to fall in the face of an onslaught of soulless abominations? Somehow I doubt that. We must find a way to succeed without them. Souls or not, capsuleers are a cancer on modern society, a breeding ground for sin and corruption of the worst sort, and more of them is only going to create further devastation. Quote: Accept this chance to be saved. You are foolish if you dig your heels in and refuse to believe you are responsible for yourself just because you are a capsuleer. You are a moral, thinking, human being that just happens to have been re-made through technology. Your power and ability to temporarily escape death do not exempt you from anything but mortal laws - God's law still hunts your head if you fail to abide by it. I, for one, welcome this. Who said I refused to believe that? Since when have I ever said that we are not responsible? I have been arguing the opposite. My concerns are about our collective responsibility to uphold the faith, and whether or not we as a society are truly fulfilling it. It has nothing to do with whether or not clones have souls, but instead whether we as Amarr are meeting our obligations to be a righteous people worthy of God's love.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1686	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:42:36 - [60] - Quote I see I was too late. Congratulations, Arrendis, enjoy your new pawn. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Samira Kernher 2873	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:44:45 - [61] - Quote You don't know anything about me, my lord, and you never have. Don't presume to tell me who holds my chains. Besides, this is what you wanted from the beginning.
Nick Bete The Scope Gallente Federation 495	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:48:00 - [62] - Quote Who died and left you in charge of the universe Shutaq? Oh, and good luck with coming after Arrendis or any of the rest of us who oppose your magical deity/slavery cult empire. Avenging angel my ass...
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 478	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:50:16 - [63] - Quote Samira, why don't you come see me in Sarum Prime some time this week. I'd love for us to have a talk that's not viewed by God knows how many other people.
Nick Bete The Scope Gallente Federation 495	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:55:26 - [64] - Quote Wow, someone starts to think for herself and questions Imperial dogma and suddenly the unthinking zealots attack her and offer to give her some private brainwashing sessions. Leave the poor girl alone and quit trying to bully her, both of you.
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 478	Posted - 2016.10.12 18:59:41 - [65] - Quote It is very common for someone to talk to a priestess in private. In fact, it's a key point of our ministry. This is an invitation, not an order. I'm not making her do anything.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6536	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:01:00 - [66] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: New Empress, New rules. What amazes me are the number of you who believe that the Empress has a divine mandate from heaven to rule in the manner she believes is best but now question those changes. How fortunate, then, that not all of us who question the sincerity of this decree believe in her. And those of us who don't believe thought the original decree was backwards, reactionary and stupid. We surely didn't admire the Amarr for it. By any objective measurement, the Empire is less stupid because of the change. It caused genuine distress to loyalist capsuleers and seemed nothing more than prejudice and a tantrum from Holders who couldn't accept that there was something they wanted that they couldn't obtain through money, power, influence or violence. From the perspective of the believers, you have the anointed of God reaching out through the Theology Council. From the perspective of the rest of us you have, perhaps, the least ******** thing to come out of a government agency in quite awhile. From either perspective, I'm not sure what has YOUR underwear all bunched up. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1686	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:06:01 - [67] - Quote I already explained her motivations, Pieter. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2513	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:13:17 - [68] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Arrendis, I know exactly what you are doing. I also know exactly what you want. You want the Empire to fail. You want it to burn, and you just have a fancy way of expressing that desire. Are you insane? Do you think I'm completely bonkers? Aldrith, how many Minmatar slaves are there still within the Empire? What would the Empire's collapse do to them? Stop, take a deep breath, and remember who it was who could explain to the mouth-breathers why the destabilization of the Empire was a direct threat against your children. It's just as much a direct threat against my distant kin, and while I won't begin to claim I care for them as intently and deeply as any parent does for their child, blood is blood, man. Do I want to see them free to decide the course of their lives for themselves? Of course. Do I want to plunge them into devastation and civil war to do it? Spirits below, do I look like Nauplius? Quote: You are not calling out a hypocrisy. You are upset that the Empire might counter the power of capsuleers by incorporating them fully into its society. That is a threat to you, and to every null power out there, including yours. And you do not want that to happen, so you cast doubt upon this decision because you want to sway more hesitant Amarr to resist this change. I get it. I understand. You do not give a damn about Amarr purity or morality, you give a damn about taking advantage of the sense of purity and morality. You don't get it. You think you do, and I respect that, but you don't get it, and you really don't want to get it. I'd love for the EmpireGÇöfor all four 'empires'GÇöto formally incorporate capsuleer forces into their militaries. We'd reduce the number of lives lost in most conflicts, and we'd improve unit performance across the board. More, it'd be an avenue for more of us to have a positive, recognized impact back home. This program offers no threat to the null blocs. If you think Horde, Brave, TEST, and Karmafleet aren't salivating over this, you're mad. Seriously. Even if the Amarr funnel every one of these new capsuleers into their service, it's no threat to us. The Empire cannot expand its borders militarily into null without violating the treaties that created 'sovereign' nullsec to begin with. CONCORD administers those territories, and the Federation and Republic would move to block the move just as surely as the Empire and State would block an expansion by the Republic or Federation. It's not the null powers who'd be threatened by a military build-up of capsuleers loyal to the Empires. It's the low-security powers who'd have problems with increased patrols and stability, and the corresponding decrease in CONCORD response time (down from 'infinity' does leave a lot of room, but still). Quote: Shut it. You have no business here. Your words are false, your manipulative skinks**t is old. But now I can be confident your enfeebled soul is going to pop out of existence when you die for the last time, so I'm not too worried about you. I do worry about those you are trying to corrupt, however. Does that mean you're not coming to 9CG?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2513	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:18:19 - [69] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: From either perspective, I'm not sure what has YOUR underwear all bunched up. Eh, I just hate when crass political maneuvering gets lapped up by the masses as some kind of moral 'gift' that they're all so lucky to receive. Call it a pet peeve. At least when we make a move like this, we openly tell people we're doing it out of pragmatic self-interest and don't try to sell it to them as some gesture of benevolence. Even the Viceroy bullshit was pretty blatantly acknowledged to be about controlling space we didn't own.
Deitra Vess Non-Hostile Target 1426	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:18:35 - [70] - Quote More infighting to be viewed by the peanut gallery. And this is why the Amarr religion must be destroyed! No, not really. There's plenty of other reasons but I won't waste my time writing them. Admittedly I can't see how your god gives you some divine gift (well, the Jove indirectly did technically but that's beside the point) and you can't see it as being right using it. Then again I also can't see how PIE can ignore numerous other ships due to them not being of Amarr design.
Elanion 42	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:19:26 - [71] - Quote Well, I can see why the Sanmatar wanted to be a part of these proceedings. Watching the newly-endowed Imperial clone class gnash at each others' throats will play well back in the Republic, and he will say, "I was there." RIP YC111-115 GÇó "The project discarded, its subjects forgotten... thence must the burden be shouldered."
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 516	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:23:27 - [72] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Aria Jenneth wrote: Also, also, the Amarr aren't exactly all-forgiving. Garkeh Khanid defied the direct edict of the Emperor, acted in contravention of the policy of the Sacred Flesh, stole a massive amount of the Empire's military power and stood athwart the accepted and official 'will of God' for centuries, and then was welcomed back into the fold and given an express ride to 'paradise', explicitly. If you've got enough money and enough power to offer them, the Amarr have proven they'll forgive anything. He's dead now though isn't he? We are not all-forgiving and we are very, very patient. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Samira Kernher 2873	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:25:13 - [73] - Quote Mitara Newelle wrote: He's dead now though isn't he? We are not all-forgiving and we are very, very patient. As dead as a capsuleer.
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 516	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:26:34 - [74] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Mitara Newelle wrote: Ashlar Vellum wrote: Punishment seems too severe for a devoted servant who just lost his liege and couldn't cope with grief in a proper manner. Disagree. One does not repeatedly after being warned numerous times by The Order to remain silent continue to spout heresy and expect to walk away without severe consequences. He not only dishonored himself but the House of Kor-Azor as it's representative. Most of us have had to grieve for our respective Heirs. If this is how he opts to cope with such grief he was not fit to be a Holder to begin with. If you may Lady Newelle. There is a difference between justice and drastic punishment. It would be foolish to argue that insolence and breaking the code of demeanor should go unpunished. One thing is to strip accused of his rank and his fief and completely different thing to brand devoted servant who just lost his liege, the servant that fought with such zeal and devotion for his lord a blasphemer and a heretic. I would like to draw your attention to two precedents that happend in YC 105, one during inauguration of His Greatness Doriam II and actions of Fleet Admiral Sulei Manatir in service of Sarum Family, and another was a response to Stavros's tactless criticism. It is also good to remember The Word of God that states "The Mercy of our Emperor is Limitless. His Rule is Benign and Righteous. His Love is Perpetual.". So in consideration with everything that transpired and all details kept in mind it would be a welcome sight to see Her Holiness benign and righteous judgment without any obstructions from St. Tetrimon or Privy Council. All of this of course if accused understands his insubordinate behavior and plea for forgiveness. As he has shown no remorse and continues to spew his heresy I see no reason why Her Majesty would overturn the ruling of the Privy Council. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 479	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:26:57 - [75] - Quote Sacred Flesh still applies to heirs.
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 516	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:27:27 - [76] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Mitara Newelle wrote: He's dead now though isn't he? We are not all-forgiving and we are very, very patient. As dead as a capsuleer. What are you implying, Ms Kernher? Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2515	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:28:35 - [77] - Quote Mitara Newelle wrote: He's dead now though isn't he? We are not all-forgiving and we are very, very patient. Sure. Assuming he had no more clones wandering around posing as.. I dunno.. his heir..
Samira Kernher 2873	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:31:13 - [78] - Quote You know exactly what I'm implying, Lady Newelle.
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 479	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:33:27 - [79] - Quote If King Khanid III is a clone of King Khanid II, as whispered speculation is said in capsuleer circles, mostly from without the faithful, that would be a violation of Sacred Flesh.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1687	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:38:26 - [80] - Quote And on goes the 'honest concerned citizen' switch. You're a liar, Arrendis, and I do not respect that. You do not care about Amarr theology, the sanctity of the Empress - Theology Council relationship, or the truth about the state of a clone's soul. You care about getting your way, and your way is leisurely watching the Empire made weaker by what you see as foolish dogma, then shaking the base of Amarr power when they go rescind those dogmas by calling them self-interested and lacking in divine purpose. The exhortation confirms what has already been an obvious truth to most people in the Empire, and the cluster at large. Clones are people. Even if it is a crass political move, (which is not possible because ALL moves made by the Empress are God's will, advantageous to herself or not) I do not give a single damn. The state of my family, my corporation, and my Empire are made better for it. I get to have a soul. My children are not the products of abominations. My alliance is a recognized body of faithful warriors, and now my Empire gets to accept more of those warriors to fight on her behalf and better compete in the changing arena of warfare. The fact that you utterly fail to mention any of this until your motives are questioned is telling. Now the task it to seek revelation on what laws clones must abide by. Surely they must not be allowed to hold positions indefinitely within the Empire. Surely they must be held to standards whereby they do not abuse their power. Certainly they will not be able to have multiple copies of themselves active at one time. Amarr has always changed with the times, and recognized that the future is just as important as the past. We will be given God's will on this matter and abide by it as we always have. As for any potential talk of Khanid not being pure, let the inquisitors figure that out. Honestly, how hard is it for you people to keep your damn mouths shut?! Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 518	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:45:12 - [81] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: You know exactly what I'm implying, Lady Newelle. Then why not just come out and say it? You're not bothering to filter your thoughts on much else here lately. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 483	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:47:24 - [82] - Quote Lord Newelle: The Advisory Opinion of the Supreme Sobor did not give you a soul where you had no one before; it simply recognized what already existed. God created humans to have souls, and our understanding of Him is such that we know clones have souls as well. Neither the Empress nor the Theology Council have the power to give a soul to that which does not.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2515	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:52:50 - [83] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: You're a liar, Arrendis, and I do not respect that. You do not care about Amarr theology, the sanctity of the Empress - Theology Council relationship, or the truth about the state of a clone's soul. You care about getting your way, and your way is leisurely watching the Empire made weaker by what you see as foolish dogma, then shaking the base of Amarr power when they go rescind those dogmas by calling them self-interested and lacking in divine purpose. I dated Del'thul, Aldrith. I'm not her. I don't want to see your Empire burn. I don't want to see your children put at risk. I don't want to see my kin endangered. I've never said I care about the sanctity of the Empress. I care about my friends, and I get annoyed by hypocrisy. That's it. That's all I've said. I'm curious about Amarr theology, and interested in it as an academic matter, but I've never claimed to be seeking something to believe in or otherwise invested in it. You want to call me a liar, maybe you should fecking come up with an actual lie. Quote: The exhortation confirms what has already been an obvious truth to most people in the Empire, and the cluster at large. Clones are people. Even if it is a crass political move, (which is not possible because ALL moves made by the Empress are God's will, advantageous to herself or not) I do not give a single damn. The state of my family, my corporation, and my Empire are made better for it. I get to have a soul. My children are not the products of abominations. My alliance is a recognized body of faithful warriors, and now my Empire gets to accept more of those warriors to fight on her behalf and better compete in the changing arena of warfare. The fact that you utterly fail to mention any of this until your motives are questioned is telling. And there's the essence of your real objection here: you know I'm right, and the idea that the Empress and the Theology Council can make a move grounded in expedience and realpolitik threatens your faith. Is it so weak as to believe that a God that can create all of existence can't make crass political calculus serve his ends? And yes, you get to have a soul, if you believe in one. They never had the ability to take it from you. Either they are right, or they are wrong. If they are right, you always had a soul. If they're wrong, you still don't have one. You don't 'get' to have a soul. Either you do, or you don't, and since they cannot now, and never could actually prove that you don't, if you want one, claim one! Mittens' Kittens, boy, don't act like a whipped cur for their pleasure. If you're a man, be a damned man. Stand on your own, without worrying about the approval of some bunch of dried up birth canals and follicle-depleted scalps. Quote: Honestly, how hard is it for you people to keep your damn mouths shut?! How hard is it for you to accept responsibility for your own life, your own faith, and your own understanding of your God, instead of insisting on your right to remain a child, forever coddled and directed by mommy and daddy on the Council?
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1689	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:53:22 - [84] - Quote That is what I wished to convey, Mother Alamath, but you are correct that I did not succeed in that. My apologies, I will edit accordingly. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Samira Kernher 2875	Posted - 2016.10.12 19:58:23 - [85] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: As for any potential talk of Khanid not being pure, let the inquisitors figure that out. Honestly, how hard is it for you people to keep your damn mouths shut?! The inquisitors? What power has the Inquisition ever had over the Kingdom? I mean, okay, the Theology Council struck Khanid from the Book of Records and Emperor Heideran declared war on him. That seemed to do a whole lot of good, seeing as he's now back in the Empire, with all the rights and none of the responsibilities since his precious kingdom keeps on getting special exemptions for its heresies. He was allowed to compete in the Succession Trials and nearly became Emperor of Amarr (the only heir to ever get two chances!). Think about that. Think about what would have happened if Garkeh Khanid, the single biggest traitor to Amarr, had become emperor. And if he's doing what everyone knows he's doing, then he's going to try again, and again, and again, until he wins. It is time we stop trying to whitewash failings and instead correct them. The devil is competing for the crown, and the only thing we seem to be worried about is the impropriety of calling him the devil.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1693	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:03:46 - [86] - Quote This isn't about mistakes, it's about knowing your place. All sins are revealed in time, and all wrongs are corrected. But not by us, not until they are ready to be. If you still care to listen to reason I have something to share with you, but I will not speak here any longer. I grow tired of the feeble minds and arguments that fail to recognize how things truly work in the Empire. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 488	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:08:57 - [87] - Quote I would look to the late Lord Kor-Azor for an example. Should the people he wronged not have spoken against him? Should they have kept their place, because he was the Emperor's son and an heir? NO! It is only by the cries of the faithful that Lord Kor-Azor was brought back into the faithful. Without those that he wronged speaking out, bearing witness did the Speakers of Truth investigate, judge, punish, and ultimately help redeem him. We should look to their example and give voice to the wrong, so long as it is respectful and proper, so that it may be corrected and the wayward child brought back into the flock.
Mitara Newelle PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 519	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:10:39 - [88] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Aldrith Shutaq wrote: As for any potential talk of Khanid not being pure, let the inquisitors figure that out. Honestly, how hard is it for you people to keep your damn mouths shut?! The inquisitors? What power has the Inquisition ever had over the Kingdom? I mean, okay, the Theology Council struck Khanid from the Book of Records and Emperor Heideran declared war on him. That seemed to do a whole lot of good, seeing as he's now back in the Empire, with all the rights and none of the responsibilities since his precious kingdom keeps on getting special exemptions for its heresies. He was allowed to compete in the Succession Trials and nearly became Emperor of Amarr (the only heir to ever get two chances!). Think about that. Think about what would have happened if Garkeh Khanid, the single biggest traitor to Amarr, had become emperor. And if he's doing what everyone knows he's doing, then he's going to try again, and again, and again, until he wins. It is time we stop trying to whitewash failings and instead correct them. The devil is competing for the crown, and the only thing we seem to be worried about is the impropriety of calling him the devil. You keep saying 'He' as if Garkeh Khanid was still with us. I highly, highly you suggest you change your line of speaking lest Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel feel the need to make his presence known. Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1696	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:15:25 - [89] - Quote Let us just all calm down and meet-in person for our next exchange. I think that would be most helpful. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 488	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:17:32 - [90] - Quote I'll have the drinks. My office in Safizon tonight?
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 599	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:18:30 - [91] - Quote The desperate fervor this announcement has inspired in the enemies of the Empire and those who lack faith is only further proof that this decision is the right one. "What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you." - Empress Jamyl I
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2515	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:32:39 - [92] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Let us just all calm down and meet-in person for our next exchange. I think that would be most helpful. Alizebeth Amalath wrote: I'll have the drinks. My office in Safizon tonight? Eh, sure, why not? I can bring a jug of Hug Juice. Sami, you comin'? Free booze!
Alizebeth Amalath Order of Jamyl 489	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:37:33 - [93] - Quote I look forward to seeing you there, Ms. Arrendis. No need to bring anything.
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 329	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:46:26 - [94] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Arrendis is spot on. If Amarr does not uphold the principles of the faith, then we do not deserve our Empire. Better to collapse than to continue in sin. Stability for stability's sake is worth nothing. The choice to allow Khanid to return to the Empire and to participate in the Succession Trials (for a second time) did much to erode the confidence many people once had in those who are supposed to be our betters. That decision now taints all forthcoming decisions like this Exhortation. History can tell us many stories, one of those stories could be about a certain family legacy. Legacy that brought us a group who paint their ships ebony and steel blue, legacy that still have a postament in Shastal system. So unless certain servant of God is implying that old mistakes should be remembered no matter what and that now to be pious family should be stripped from everything, the devoted servant of God should stop. Obviously not for own sake, but because it's a disgrace to servant's family and to Lord that this servant made a pledge of loyalty.
Samira Kernher 2876	Posted - 2016.10.12 20:57:29 - [95] - Quote We cast out our sinners, and have paid for their transgressions. We don't welcome them back to the table or give them the heirdom. And we absolutely should remember it, so that we don't fall prey to repeating the same mistakes.
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 672	Posted - 2016.10.12 21:14:05 - [96] - Quote Let this be the official Nauplius position GÇö Capsuleers do indeed have souls, one soul which follows the body from clone to clone until final death. Cloning is immoral transhumanism and ought to be abolished. Nonetheless, to abandon cloning by all of the Chosen People of God at this time would be a sort of "unilateral disarmament" that would be guilty of the sin of "tempting God"; therefore, the abolishing of cloning will have to await the Reclaiming of all the Cluster.
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 600	Posted - 2016.10.12 21:18:07 - [97] - Quote The welcome back to the light was for the Khanid, not for Khanid. I think you are making Garkeh larger than he was by demonizing him so. All of the economic and military might of the kingdom, all its people, and all its systems and worlds now belong again to the Throne. One degenerate King who died anyway is a small price to pay. "What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you." - Empress Jamyl I
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 17870	Posted - 2016.10.12 22:17:45 - [98] - Quote As if it would rescue them from inevitable fall. Its abvious these people will try to break up all rules in empire. Katiz is only sticking her bum out to harsh treatment from them. Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him. GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
Loai Qerl Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 57	Posted - 2016.10.13 01:39:12 - [99] - Quote I'm.....troubled, a little. King Khanid II, rest he in light and peace, no matter what else he did, brought us back to the fold and gave us the chance to rejoice fully again in our trillions of sisters and brothers in faith. I don't think anyone who hasn't been a lifelong Kingdom citizen to understand the little ways that separation affects someone. There are a lot of us--Khanid, I mean. Who here can claim to have helped so many back to the door that opens once? He was complicated. I won't argue it. I hope you won't argue it with me. But he was ours, he was truly ours, and when he died I hope he was able to imagine half the gratitude we owed him for making Ours mean Khanid and Amarr both. I was born into a time of fear, when no one could be sure if that would be true again. Now we are sure. I will NEVER stop being grateful, both to His Former Majesty and to the Empress, long may she reign in splendor. God bless us ALL with the ability to turn the mistakes we make into a benediction, as he did. ...please stop being horrible about him.
Garion Avarr Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 10	Posted - 2016.10.13 03:22:23 - [100] - Quote This news gladdens my heart. Not for my ow sake -- these words do not change the facts of if I have a soul or not, of course. If one believes, as I do, that the Theology Council has after much study become certain of the truth of this matter, then it was always true, even when they were not certain. If you are of a more cynical outlook and view this as pandering, then what they say still does not make it either true or false. No. I have a soul, I have always had a soul, and that is simply being acknowledged. It does not, in the end, change anything for me personally. But what it does do is remove a great burden, a great sense of awkwardness, from our relatives who may have wondered if we were still who we were when they knew us as children. A question of if the person they has known had already died, and if we were simply a hollow copy of that being, bereft of the soul that had made us who we were. But now the Theology Council has spoken, and a great doubt can be lifted from the minds of our relatives. That is the great gift in this pronouncement.
Vlad Cetes No.Mercy Triumvirate. 87	Posted - 2016.10.13 05:58:57 - [101] - Quote There is one problem with this pronouncement. It assumes that a soul exists. Until the existence of a soul can be proven, it must be treated as false, logically. Therefore this announcement has no actual bearing and the debate in this thread has been pointless.
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 601	Posted - 2016.10.13 07:19:59 - [102] - Quote Loai Qerl wrote: King Khanid II, rest he in light and peace, no matter what else he did, brought us back to the fold and gave us the chance to rejoice fully again in our trillions of sisters and brothers in faith. That was actually Empress Jamyl. "What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you." - Empress Jamyl I
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox 655	Posted - 2016.10.13 07:26:29 - [103] - Quote I suppose the main reason it strikes me as a placating move and not something driven by real theological concern is just how easily the idea cracks under scrutiny compared to most of the teachings of the Amarrian faith, which are largely internally consistent. If the ruling was that each newly-cloned body received it's own soul, that would be one thing. But with the current reasoning, what happens if someone clones from the same scan twice? Is the soul split in twain? Is the second clone soulless, or else impure by other means? Again, I genuinely mean no disrespect to the people who have derived happiness from this ruling, but it seems like a bit of a hack job.
Skyweir Kinnison Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 290	Posted - 2016.10.13 10:40:35 - [104] - Quote Vlad Cetes wrote: There is one problem with this pronouncement. It assumes that a soul exists. Until the existence of a soul can be proven, it must be treated as false, logically. Therefore this announcement has no actual bearing and the debate in this thread has been pointless. Whilst no believer myself, this assertion is false of itself. As the aphorism states, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It seems to me to be perfectly acceptable for theologians to explore the idea of a soul and how it may interact with the physical being. Theology is an ancient study, just as philosophy - and both have a place in the human experience. Where one takes issue, is when the essentially unprovable is used to justify interference in other people's lives. Or even to otherwise restrict the individual's passion to enjoy the life they have in favour of some post-life 'reward'. There is a Gallente philosopher from ancient times who wrote: GÇ£For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life.GÇ¥ The sentiment, to me at least, seems to have some resonance with the spiritual message of the Council's decision (whist reserving my cynicism about the politics) that enables all the Faithful to enjoy the life they have without worrying about how their choices may affect some post-mortem fate that may or may not exist. Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
Kolodi Ramal Sanxing 204	Posted - 2016.10.13 10:59:44 - [105] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: I suppose the main reason it strikes me as a placating move and not something driven by real theological concern is just how easily the idea cracks under scrutiny compared to most of the teachings of the Amarrian faith, which are normally largely internally consistent. If the ruling was that each newly-cloned body received it's own soul, that would be one thing. But with the current reasoning, where it just transfers over, what happens if someone clones from the same scan twice? Is the soul split in twain? Is the second clone soulless, or else impure by other means? Again, I genuinely mean no disrespect to the people who have derived happiness from this ruling, but I have to confess it seems like a bit of a hack job. Maybe they see it the same way some Matari clans see it: The spirit (or soul) travels with the infomorph. If there are two, there are two - equal duplicates. As soon as at least one of them is active/conscious, their paths diverge and they are not two of the same anymore. Neither of them is really a copy, spiritually; neither of them is lesser; they aren't invalidated by there being two of them. Complications in how other people see them and deal with them, and even complications in how they feel about themselves, aren't signs of their actual natures. (This is my understanding of how my own clan's beliefs were explained to me, anyway. But even if I got it a little wrong somehow, there are a lot of clans and this probably hits the nail on the head for somebody somewhere.)
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2881	Posted - 2016.10.13 12:12:09 - [106] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Diana Kim wrote: It is highly unwise to speak about immortality for those who exist for way less time so far than an average baseliner. Your definition of death isn't one everyone shares, though, Ms. Kim. (I agree, though-- we're pseudo-immortal at best, even while we're active.) Death is death. But even if we disregard personal deaths of each capsuleer, the idea that I have expressed was that the whole Capsuleer program's age is only 12 years. It doesn't matter what you think as a death or not, what idea your share or not, the fact remains - baseliner average life expectancy greatly exceeds 12 years... in all known parts of space. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2463	Posted - 2016.10.13 12:38:40 - [107] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: I suppose the main reason it strikes me as a placating move and not something driven by real theological concern is just how easily the idea cracks under scrutiny compared to most of the teachings of the Amarrian faith, which are normally largely internally consistent. If the ruling was that each newly-cloned body received it's own soul, that would be one thing. But with the current reasoning, where it just transfers over, what happens if someone clones from the same scan twice? Is the soul split in twain? Is the second clone soulless, or else impure by other means? Again, I genuinely mean no disrespect to the people who have derived happiness from this ruling, but I have to confess it seems like a bit of a hack job. Is there some reason they'd need to explain the physics of the spiritual realm, Ms. Ikiryo? Is there any reason to think that spirits have to move physically in our world at all? We are talking about a kind of immortal spark bound to a particular person. No surgeon's found such a thing in a person, yet, so maybe there's no reason to assume it has to comply with our rules. For all we know there's no meaningful distance between any two points in our world in the realm that such a thing inhabits. On a more basic level, what this really does is essentially just this: The Theology Council now agrees that we're people.
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox 658	Posted - 2016.10.13 12:56:19 - [108] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Is there some reason they'd need to explain the physics of the spiritual realm, Ms. Ikiryo? Is there any reason to think that spirits have to move physically in our world at all? We are talking about a kind of immortal spark bound to a particular person. No surgeon's found such a thing in a person, yet, so maybe there's no reason to assume it has to comply with our rules. For all we know there's no meaningful distance between any two points in our world in the realm that such a thing inhabits. On a more basic level, what this really does is essentially just this: The Theology Council now agrees that we're people. I feel like you've sort of missed what I was saying. I don't have a problem with how the soul might move from one place to another - To the best of my understanding, the Amarrian faith does have a sort of concept of a higher realm, so there's nothing saying it couldn't zip from one side of the cluster to another, as the article seems to suggest. That's internally consistent. What they don't even seem to be trying to justify with this explanation, however, is the necessary duplication of the soul that would occur when making two people from one scan. Which does happen, CONCORD regulations or not.
Karmilla Strife Societas Imperialis Tenura 463	Posted - 2016.10.13 13:27:05 - [109] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: What they don't even seem to be trying to justify with this explanation, however, is the necessary duplication of the soul that would occur when making two people from one scan. Which does happen, CONCORD regulations or not. The Theology Council is no doubt aware that this could happen in spite of CONCORD regulations and has affirmed the Yulai convention's ban. The announcement does not explain why, but perhaps the full text of the exhortation goes into more detail in addressing just such a concern. The Theology Council is not beholden to CONCORD so if I had to hazard a guess, one of the reasons for affirming the ban could be that "duplication" of a soul as you illustrated could be considered an abomination.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2464	Posted - 2016.10.13 13:47:49 - [110] - Quote Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Aria Jenneth wrote: Is there some reason they'd need to explain the physics of the spiritual realm, Ms. Ikiryo? Is there any reason to think that spirits have to move physically in our world at all? We are talking about a kind of immortal spark bound to a particular person. No surgeon's found such a thing in a person, yet, so maybe there's no reason to assume it has to comply with our rules. For all we know there's no meaningful distance between any two points in our world in the realm that such a thing inhabits. On a more basic level, what this really does is essentially just this: The Theology Council now agrees that we're people. I feel like you've sort of missed what I was saying. I don't have a problem with how the soul might move from one place to another - To the best of my understanding, the Amarrian faith does have a sort of concept of a higher realm, so there's nothing saying it couldn't zip from one side of the cluster to another, as the article seems to suggest. That's internally consistent. What they don't even seem to be trying to justify with this explanation, however, is the necessary duplication of the soul that would occur when making two people from one scan. Which does happen, CONCORD regulations or not. Hm. That's true, I did. I'm sorry. As Mrs. Pryce was saying, the Exhortation does affirm the ban on such a thing. Considering the history of violent incidents flowing out of people duplicating themselves, the idea that the soul is damaged or divided somehow in such an event seems like a reasonable concern.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1663	Posted - 2016.10.13 13:49:59 - [111] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Gwen Ikiryo wrote: I suppose the main reason it strikes me as a placating move and not something driven by real theological concern is just how easily the idea cracks under scrutiny compared to most of the teachings of the Amarrian faith, which are normally largely internally consistent. If the ruling was that each newly-cloned body received it's own soul, that would be one thing. But with the current reasoning, where it just transfers over, what happens if someone clones from the same scan twice? Is the soul split in twain? Is the second clone soulless, or else impure by other means? Again, I genuinely mean no disrespect to the people who have derived happiness from this ruling, but I have to confess it seems like a bit of a hack job. Is there some reason they'd need to explain the physics of the spiritual realm, Ms. Ikiryo? Is there any reason to think that spirits have to move physically in our world at all? We are talking about a kind of immortal spark bound to a particular person. No surgeon's found such a thing in a person, yet, so maybe there's no reason to assume it has to comply with our rules. For all we know there's no meaningful distance between any two points in our world in the realm that such a thing inhabits. On a more basic level, what this really does is essentially just this: The Theology Council now agrees that we're people. We are talking about the Amarr's idea of the soul though, not the Ohnesh and the Andesh or etc. For someone who is familiar with the Amarr religion, this does seem like a hack job, just suddenly coming out to declare that clones have souls so close to the availability of the Alpha clones (awfully convenient timing). Probably would seem far less like it if they also define what a soul is, what makes a soul a soul, and why clones have souls based on this. I have no idea what other cultures have to say about this. Well, except the Clan perspective. We are so apart from the Sebiestor collective that we have no idea what the current general consensus in our bloodline is. Something about since the Andesh is not of material realm and the Ohnesh being everchanging, therefore when a clone dies and is recreated, the Ohnesh changes but the Andesh is still the same, therefore same person different Ohnesh or something like that. Not really clear about it. Not sure if the rest of the Tribe agrees either, or if the Tribe rather not discuss the matter. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Karmilla Strife Societas Imperialis Tenura 463	Posted - 2016.10.13 14:05:44 - [112] - Quote People keep saying this is a sudden thing. We've been having this debate as a culture for many years. The resolution may have been sped up by the Empress' request, but it's been in the making since at least the time of my grandparents.
Matar Ronin 2149	Posted - 2016.10.13 16:06:12 - [113] - Quote The movers and shakers that operate the slavery cult demonstrate once again that they are all about politics. Capsuleers are the new power class in New Eden and the slavery cult had to finally publicly bow to their growing strength. The fact that the previous occupant of the throne of skulls was well known to be a capsuleer clone to everyone not gullible enough to buy into the "second life" public relations spin administered to her resurfacing in time to thwart parts of the Elder Fleet missions. Add to this indisputable fact, all the house champions whose combat determined who rose to power were capsuleers, and you can see the political fix the Theology Council found themselves in. Capsuleer clones are running the amarr empire, just no longer from the shadows. No more arguments about them being the ghoulish undead absent human souls that cannot be rewarded for their good service to the cult. The next step will be when Catpiss Trash-Murky declares herself divine and the final immortal leader of the slavery cult with a public conversion to a capsuleer clone. No new divine revelation, no inspiring texts from God, just good old fashion backroom political maneuvering. A clever clone capsuleer coup pulled off in plain sight. Now let's monitor events closely to see exactly what they do with it. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2521	Posted - 2016.10.13 16:10:52 - [114] - Quote Karmilla Strife wrote: People keep saying this is a sudden thing. Yes. Because this is a sudden thing. A decision on a centuries-old debate just happens to come less than two weeks after the new Empress calls for an expansion of the cloning program. That's sudden. There's a reason the debate's lasted so long, after all: it can't really be won either way. One of two chains progresses: I. Clones are soulless monsters. Those soulless monsters can still have kids. Do the kids have souls? What about the children of a clone and a 'real' human? Do they have half a soul? Has a slowly-widening spiderweb of soulless or only partially-souled people been introduced into the cluster? II. Clones have souls. Only its possible to make dozens of simultaneous clones. If that happens, which one gets the soul? Do they all get the soul? Do they suddenly get multiple souls? Can you mass produce human souls??? Do they get part of the soul? Oh god, we're back to the potential for partially-souled people breeding. Sure, CONCORD has regulations that say 'you're not allowed to make multiple clones', but CONCORD regulations aren't exactly a theological authority. CONCORD can't tell me I'm out of harmony. So hiding behind the dodge of 'The Theology Council certainly upholds the ban' doesn't actually address the issue. It's not 'should you do this?' but 'What happens if you do?' Let's look at some potentials: A. Everybody gets the same soul. Let's start off by saying some demented cloning technician has decided to have a little fun, and make 4 clones of you the next time you get podded. You don't know about this, but it happens, and you wake up in four different places, unaware of the tech's perfidity. Ok, so there's four of you running around, each doing different things, not telepathically linked or any of that nonsense. Four 'yous'. And they're all sharing the same soul. Like a karmic bank account. Three of them are good, virtuous people. Examplars, paragons, even. The fourth is a raving maniac who goes around sexually defiling the flaming corpses of puppies with other flaming corpses of puppies, or something. Really vile crap. Clones 1-3 don't even know about this. They don't even know about one another! They're living quiet lives in the Empire while Number Four is off being depraved in the bowels of the Federation. He's taken on a different name. He's had cosmetic surgery to get a different face. But three good, devout people are toast. That seems a little excessive. B. Everyone gets their own soul. Does anyone really think the Theology Council is going to say human cloning technology has the ability to mass-produce souls? Completely setting aside the hubris of it, that raises all sorts of ugly questions like 'When do these souls get made? Do they come into existence when the infomorph is transferred, and the brain is flash-grown? If so, does data corruption mean only a partial soul, or a damaged soul? If not, do my jump clones and waiting medical clone have unaware souls that I'm displacing when I jump in?' G'head. Open that can of worms. I dare you. C. The soul gets split up Does the soul 'heal'? If so, this is really just A. with a bit of a delay. If not, we're back to the conundrum of partially-souled people and what happens when they breed. D. Only one of you gets the soul. Only two questions need to be asked to demonstrate why nobody in their right mind would try to push this one: 1. How do you determine who gets the soul? 2. Haven't we then just established that everyone else is a soulless monster, and what if they clone further and/or have kids? No matter how you slice it, simply saying that 'CONCORD says not to do that, and we agree' doesn't actually address the matter at all. Doesn't even begin to address it. And it's an issue that immediately follows from the idea that clones have souls: 'If a man-made copy of a human being has a soul, what happens when you make more than one at a time?' There's a reason the debate's been going on probably since the first slow-growth genetic cloning with stem cells became possible. So, yes, to have it decided at such a convenient point in time is definitely 'sudden'. And incredibly unlikely. I'd be less surprised at the idea of an Amarr bishop drinking industrial cleanser.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin Noticed. 2001	Posted - 2016.10.13 16:37:49 - [115] - Quote The real amusing thing is that now that capsuleers are confirmed to have souls, the Amarr have a religious obligation to Reclaim those capsuleers. They could have just dismissed us all as soulless abominations, but no.
Karmilla Strife Societas Imperialis Tenura 471	Posted - 2016.10.13 16:48:26 - [116] - Quote While those are very interesting questions and no doubt have been part of the debate, an advisory resolution such as this would likely have been similarly drafted after a relatively short period of debate had any Emperor/Empress requested it. When someone of that position asks a subordinate for an answer, it's unwise to refuse on the basis of "it's complicated." The Supreme Sobor reached a consensus, but there are still people on the other side of the debate and I'm sure they still have their objections. Furthermore, this was also an advisory recommendation, it has not been ratified by the Empress and Privy Council. It's a bit soon for all the Amarr-haters out there to scream about some sort of conspiracy especially when her Holiness already publicly announced her intentions to expand capsuleer education within the Empire. Not that I'm unhappy that so many non-believers are suddenly interested in the nature of the soul. That part has been quite a pleasant surprise from the IGS.
Karmilla Strife Societas Imperialis Tenura 471	Posted - 2016.10.13 16:49:41 - [117] - Quote Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: The real amusing thing is that now that capsuleers are confirmed to have souls, the Amarr have a religious obligation to Reclaim those capsuleers. They could have just dismissed us all as soulless abominations, but no. I'll make sure to slip a few brochures under your captains quarters door.
Lunarisse Aspenstar Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 984	Posted - 2016.10.13 16:53:15 - [118] - Quote Karmilla Strife wrote: Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: The real amusing thing is that now that capsuleers are confirmed to have souls, the Amarr have a religious obligation to Reclaim those capsuleers. They could have just dismissed us all as soulless abominations, but no. I'll make sure to slip a few brochures under your captains quarters door. We'll need to draft up a short Explanatory Pamplet. Good idea Karmilla!
Veikitamo Gesakaarin Noticed. 2002	Posted - 2016.10.13 16:58:57 - [119] - Quote Hey, I quite enjoy my soul being irredeemable in the eyes of God thank you very much!
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1663	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:01:12 - [120] - Quote Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Hey, I quite enjoy my soul being irredeemable in the eyes of God thank you very much! I just stick to my ancestral beliefs but with the idea that there is one Andesh but multiple branching states of Ohnesh. Then not talk about it afterwards. Because trying to figure this out hurts my head. I'm not a metaphysicist, dammit! A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Synthetic Cultist Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 558	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:06:19 - [121] - Quote Arrendis wrote: B. Everyone gets their own soul. Does anyone really think the Theology Council is going to say human cloning technology has the ability to mass-produce souls? Completely setting aside the hubris of it, that raises all sorts of ugly questions like 'When do these souls get made? Do they come into existence when the infomorph is transferred, and the brain is flash-grown? If so, does data corruption mean only a partial soul, or a damaged soul? If not, do my jump clones and waiting medical clone have unaware souls that I'm displacing when I jump in?' G'head. Open that can of worms. I dare you. Yes. Also, you are Wrong. You do not Have a Soul. You Are a Soul. Mass-Cloning Devices, such as the Takmahl Device, have the Ability to produce Souls. I do Not Think the Theology Council would Admit This, as it would be Quite Controversial. The Soul would be Created or Transferred when the Clone is Awakened. For Example: Clone A makes a Backup Brain Scan, and goes Off to do Something Dangerous, and Dies. Clone B, is Awakened from the Backup, at a Later Date. In this Case, the Infomorph was not Transferred, but was Created. Clone B is now their own Soul, Independent of Clone A. Whereas, in a Normal Cloning Procedure, the body Dies, but the Soul is Transferred. Data Corruption would result in a Damaged Awakened Clone with their own Soul, which would be Quite Different from the Previous Clone's Soul. Jump and medical Clones are Unaware, Unalive biological Constructs, and have no Soul until Activated. At the Time of Judgement, the individual Souls would be Judged Individually, according to their own Actions. Some may be Damned, others may be Saved. Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol. It is Written.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2522	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:11:46 - [122] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: I just stick to my ancestral beliefs but with the idea that there is one Andesh but multiple branching states of Ohnesh. Then not talk about it afterwards. Because trying to figure this out hurts my head. I'm not a metaphysicist, dammit! No need for that. Andesh remains Andesh, and Ohnesh remains all that is not Andesh. We're either in harmony, or we're not, and one way or the other, we will all return to Andesh in the end.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2522	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:14:24 - [123] - Quote Synthetic Cultist wrote: Stuff Problem is, for any of that to have any more weight than 'Actually, everyone's a potato chip', you still have to be able to isolate, and demonstrate the existence of (and, for that matter, a coherent definition of) 'a soul'.
Synthetic Cultist Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 558	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:39:50 - [124] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Synthetic Cultist wrote: Stuff Problem is, for any of that to have any more weight than 'Actually, everyone's a potato chip', you still have to be able to isolate, and demonstrate the existence of (and, for that matter, a coherent definition of) 'a soul'. My Identical Twin Sister and I, are Not the Same, despite our Construction being Identical in Every Aspect. Our other Sister, is Also Not the Same, again, despite being of Identical Construction. Should my Hardware be Destroyed, I, Synthia, would Cease to Exist, and could Not be Restored. Therefore, I have a Soul. The Soul being the Ineffable Thing that causes Persons with otherwise Identical Construction and Memories, to be Different from Each Other. Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol. It is Written.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin Noticed. 2003	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:44:38 - [125] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Hey, I quite enjoy my soul being irredeemable in the eyes of God thank you very much! I just stick to my ancestral beliefs but with the idea that there is one Andesh but multiple branching states of Ohnesh. Then not talk about it afterwards. Because trying to figure this out hurts my head. I'm not a metaphysicist, dammit! Yeah, I'm pretty much the same. I follow my parables on the Way of Kasuuya and if I am found worthy on the path of exile I will feast with my ancestors who bore witness to my deeds. I have no need for an Amarrian soul given that.
Persephone Alleile Nocx Initiative Moist. 174	Posted - 2016.10.13 17:59:28 - [126] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Synthetic Cultist wrote: Stuff Problem is, for any of that to have any more weight than 'Actually, everyone's a potato chip', you still have to be able to isolate, and demonstrate the existence of (and, for that matter, a coherent definition of) 'a soul'. We Intaki are fairly convinced of the existence of an immortal soul, seeing as we have the Reborn who have mastered the ability to retain memory of other lives lived beyond the veil of death. From my understanding, capsule and clone technology follows similar principles using technology rather than willpower and spiritual development to bridge the gap between life and death. Seems to me this would signify that the soul is indeed transferred from one clone to the next at the point of death (or when a jump clone is activated). Now in the case of incomplete transfer of the infomorph, like in the case of an old back-up as in Synthia's example, things get complicated. First, what is a soul? To me a soul would be defined as a discrete point of consciousness that collects around it memories, experiences and thought-forms as a body would drape itself in clothing. These experiences and etc. do not define the soul, and indeed in most cases they are shed or else veiled at death. The soul continues to exist but it may find new ways of expressing itself, new concepts with which to garb itself, similarly to how a military officer could retire trading in their uniform for civilian clothing. They remain the same being but their role and the way they are perceived has changed. An incomplete transfer of the infomorph could result in the loss of experience and memory, but the point of consciousness would be the same. This is of course my own layman's interpretation so I don't claim any authority here.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2522	Posted - 2016.10.13 18:17:28 - [127] - Quote Synthetic Cultist wrote: Arrendis wrote: Synthetic Cultist wrote: Stuff Problem is, for any of that to have any more weight than 'Actually, everyone's a potato chip', you still have to be able to isolate, and demonstrate the existence of (and, for that matter, a coherent definition of) 'a soul'. My Identical Twin Sister and I, are Not the Same, despite our Construction being Identical in Every Aspect. Our other Sister, is Also Not the Same, again, despite being of Identical Construction. Should my Hardware be Destroyed, I, Synthia, would Cease to Exist, and could Not be Restored. Therefore, I have a Soul. The Soul being the Ineffable Thing that causes Persons with otherwise Identical Construction and Memories, to be Different from Each Other. Fatal problem with this construction: souls are a metaphysical concept. Your sisters and you may have had identical initial states, but you had different experiences from the very moment of awakening, even if that experience differed only in your position by a few feet. As these differences mount up, moment after moment, your memories are different, and thus the complex recursion-chains of your decision-making processes cannot help but return slightly different results. This further amplifies the differences and creates ever-more-complex distinctions between you. In a few picoseconds, you would be fundamentally distinct individuals. No metaphysicsGÇöno soulGÇörequired.
Nicoletta Mithra Tekaima Community of New Eden Pilgrims 781	Posted - 2016.10.13 20:46:18 - [128] - Quote Karmilla Strife wrote: People keep saying this is a sudden thing. We've been having this debate as a culture for many years. The resolution may have been sped up by the Empress' request, but it's been in the making since at least the time of my grandparents. Indeed. And not only is the debate something old, but also the advice given: It is only sudden or surprising for those that didn't follow the theological discussion before this event. It's not surprising how the Sobor advised on this matter. Most theologians - especially the best and brightest - in the debate already gravitated to saying something like the formula put forth, if not something outright saying the same in other words. Which again isn't surprising, given that the Sobor consists of the most formidable and brightest theologians. It may be some political agenda behind requesting such a statement at this time. But it's a prudent one. If the Captain takes a ship over from his predecessor, it's quite prudent to ask for a detailed status report. The new Empress did just that in regard to the Empire. To suspect some 'evil plot' would only be merited if the majority opinion of theologians on cloning suddenly changed with the request. Which didn't happen. It was exactly what one could have expected the Sobor to advise on the matter a year or a decade ago. Alo, no, this doesn't change a thing on the doctrine of Sacred Flesh. The doctrine of Sacred Flesh is about the flesh of royalty (that's what the name is already saying). The cloning of a whole body is believed to make the sacred flesh impure - that is why royalty isn't allowed to full-body-clone. As to the claims of inconsistency when confronting the judgement with the conundrum of cloning from the same scan twice: Nothing that's been said by the Sobor indicates that it should be impossible, what is said explicitly - as others pointed out already - is that the prohibiton on simultaneous instantiations of a single personality in multiple clones is reaffirmed. What exactly happens if such a thing is done can be explained consistently with the Sobor's formula in various ways. All is good, business as usual. Godspeed, - N. Mithra
Luna Hanaya Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 183	Posted - 2016.10.14 04:03:37 - [129] - Quote Fleshes, evil peoples, physics-metaphysics... Peoples, praise to God, I can visit my family now! Yey! (( If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community: Intergalactic Summit - IC router Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore ))
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1695	Posted - 2016.10.14 05:06:06 - [130] - Quote y'all have souls now, officially, that are of course, in danger of being Eternally Condemned for your Lifetime of Sin. So, why not repent your sins and embrace the One True Faith ? Explanatory Leaflets are available. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2466	Posted - 2016.10.14 12:43:04 - [131] - Quote Luna Hanaya wrote: Fleshes, evil peoples, physics-metaphysics... Peoples, praise to God, I can visit my family now! Yey! For me, this is what this is really about: recognizing the obvious (we're people!), setting aside a belief that marginalizes us-- from associates, from family, even sometimes from ourselves. It's an alienating belief. If it got done a little "hastily" and at a "convenient" moment-- well. Politics. But it seems at least as likely to me that it really went more like this: Quote: Empress: Theology Council, I need a ruling on this issue. We're working on an expansion of our capsuleer program and need to know whether the resulting capsuleers should be approached as fellow human beings or as hazardous equipment with faces. TC: Uh-- we've been talking about this for a while, and haven't really reached a conclusion. Empress: Well, could you produce one? TC: We suppose so. ... We do have a tentative consensus; just, we've been avoiding a solid decision because it's going to be controversial whichever way we go, and ambiguity's been working pretty well up to now. Empress: And your consensus is? TC: That they do have souls. Empress: All right, then.
Utari Onzo Pentag Blade Curatores Veritatis Alliance 1429	Posted - 2016.10.14 14:05:49 - [132] - Quote That seems the most logical chain of questioning, Aria. However, as with most things that go on in the governance of the Empire we might never know those details. The point remains however that for all the political convenience this tentative consensus has, it's still the beginning of the end of a long bridge that needed crossing years ago. Quite a lot of positive changes in the various nations only happen because it became politically expedient to enact them. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Claudia Osyn Non-Hostile Target 2125	Posted - 2016.10.14 15:14:24 - [133] - Quote Utari Onzo wrote: That seems the most logical chain of questioning, Aria. However, as with most things that go on in the governance of the Empire we might never know those details. The point remains however that for all the political convenience this tentative consensus has, it's still the beginning of the end of a long bridge that needed crossing years ago. Quite a lot of positive changes in the various nations only happen because it became politically expedient to enact them. Politics 101: do nothing unless it is a benifit to you or your position is threatened. A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Soldarius O C C U P Y Test Alliance Please Ignore 1536	Posted - 2016.10.14 15:21:27 - [134] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Aria Jenneth wrote: Also, also, the Amarr aren't exactly all-forgiving. Garkeh Khanid defied the direct edict of the Emperor, acted in contravention of the policy of the Sacred Flesh, stole a massive amount of the Empire's military power and stood athwart the accepted and official 'will of God' for centuries, and then was welcomed back into the fold and given an express ride to 'paradise', explicitly. If you've got enough money and enough power to offer them, the Amarr have proven they'll forgive anything. Much the same can be said of Jamyl Sarum. Perhaps His Holiness was just trying to counter her until such time as proper balance could be regained. If anything can be said of the Rite of Shathol'Syn, it is that it has the potential to wipe the slate clean. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Matar Ronin 2172	Posted - 2016.10.14 20:02:37 - [135] - Quote Nicoletta Mithra wrote: Indeed. And not only is the debate something old, but also the advice given: It is only sudden or surprising for those that didn't follow the theological discussion before this event. It's not surprising how the Sobor advised on this matter. Most theologians - especially the best and brightest - in the debate already gravitated to saying something like the formula put forth, if not something outright saying the same in other words. Which again isn't surprising, given that the Sobor consists of the most formidable and brightest theologians. - N. Mithra the Sobor consists of the most formidable and brightest theologians. Other then your personal opinion can you provide support for this statement? Do you actually know the educational back ground of the majority of the members of the Sobor? Can you even list their names? Can you direct us to any other of their current writings on theology? Can you list the names of the other top theologians in New Eden who are not members of the Sobor? If not your opinion as an enthusiastic "Fan" of the Sobor is duly noted and given the appropriate weight. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2526	Posted - 2016.10.14 20:28:33 - [136] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Much the same can be said of Jamyl Sarum. Perhaps His Holiness was just trying to counter her until such time as proper balance could be regained. If anything can be said of the Rite of Shathol'Syn, it is that it has the potential to wipe the slate clean. So Khanid was countering Sarum by refusing to undergo the rite two hundred years before she did go through with the ritual suicide? You sure you wanna hang your hat on that one?
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6543	Posted - 2016.10.15 03:16:39 - [137] - Quote I really adore the term "Hazardous Equipment with Faces" Aria. I now know what my Splinterz team will be called - with your permission, of course. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1698	Posted - 2016.10.15 06:00:45 - [138] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Soldarius wrote: Much the same can be said of Jamyl Sarum. Perhaps His Holiness was just trying to counter her until such time as proper balance could be regained. If anything can be said of the Rite of Shathol'Syn, it is that it has the potential to wipe the slate clean. So Khanid was countering Sarum by refusing to undergo the rite two hundred years before she did go through with the ritual suicide? You sure you wanna hang your hat on that one? Well, you know. Planning for the long term is quite important in Amarr culture. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Matias Kurovassi Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.10.15 10:40:23 - [139] - Quote I admit to pondering the wording of the exhortation by the Theology Council given thus as clones: embodying souls in communion with the Imperial Rite as the flesh of their birth would speak to us In particular the phrase, "Flesh of their birth." A Grade A+ Hydrostatic Clone is built from the stem cell transcription from a client on to a harvested human cadaver, and in the case of lower grade clones from the artificially manufactured bodies derived from human body parts or other processed biomass -- human or otherwise. As such this raises some interesting questions to me: 1. Does the flesh of birth refer to the specific racial phenotype of the biomass used to construct a clone body, or not? Does only the final clone product after stem cell and genetic transcriptions have to match an original body for it to be embodying a soul? Would a Minmatar cadaver transcribed to the phenotype of an Amarrian clone be considered as embodying a soul for an Amarrian whose stem cells and DNA were used to do so, for example? 2. The alternative to human biomass transcription methods in order to cultivate a clone meeting the standard of being, "As the flesh of their birth," would seem to raise its own fundamental dogmatic concerns. For would not techniques like nucleus replacements of oocytes to achieve an exact zygote replica of a person then mean an religious approval of a form of asexual/parthogenic reproduction of humans? More importantly, would the resulting fetus and child have a soul or not as it is rapidly matured to adulthood in order to serve as a custom-ordered shell? The examples used to inform the exhortation; the act of the divine to bring Empress Jamyl Sarum I back from her death and the cell regrowth of an human body as is the case with Lord Articio Kor-Azor do not appear as adequate reflections of the modern cloning industry as it applies to the actual growth, construction and use of clones. I do have my hopes these questions will be clarified in the future by the ecclesiastical authorities of the Empire as to the nature of the soul as it applies to the cloning industry.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6544	Posted - 2016.10.15 13:27:23 - [140] - Quote Speaking of the modern state of the cloning industry, when is the last time that any of us had to choose the quality of our clone body? For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 604	Posted - 2016.10.15 14:03:00 - [141] - Quote December of YC116 "What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you." - Empress Jamyl I
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2882	Posted - 2016.10.15 14:08:30 - [142] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Speaking of the modern state of the cloning industry, when is the last time that any of us had to choose the quality of our clone body? Legs are moving, hands are flailing, why complain, Tuulinen-haan? Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2528	Posted - 2016.10.15 16:05:49 - [143] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Speaking of the modern state of the cloning industry, when is the last time that any of us had to choose the quality of our clone body? I did, just last night. I lovely group of pilots from The Culture invited me to decide if I wanted to choose the pristine clone I have in 9CG, or the rather shot-up one I was currently using in G95. Needless to say, I chose the pristine clone.
Luna Hanaya Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 186	Posted - 2016.10.15 20:51:52 - [144] - Quote Aria Jenneth wrote: Luna Hanaya wrote: Fleshes, evil peoples, physics-metaphysics... Peoples, praise to God, I can visit my family now! Yey! For me, this is what this is really about: recognizing the obvious (we're people!), setting aside a belief that marginalizes us-- from associates, from family, even sometimes from ourselves. It's an alienating belief. It is good not just to feel yourself a human, but to know others consider you a human too! And not just a cloned toy they can break, knowing you will be 'reassembled'. (( If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community: Intergalactic Summit - IC router Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore ))
Matias Kurovassi Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.10.16 00:15:44 - [145] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Speaking of the modern state of the cloning industry, when is the last time that any of us had to choose the quality of our clone body? Yesterday, when I switched clone service providers. Which really is why I'm curious about the exhortation by the Theology Council. Caldari cloning and biomedical firms do a lot of business in the Empire, and the exhortation on cloning represents a potentially expanded market base as Imperial citizens who might have been hesitant to adopt the technology on religious grounds will now be less so. It is however a matter of just exactly which cloning technologies would be considered religiously proscribed or not. since there is a wide array of such. With the recent news of the SSoE providing cloning technology to CONCORD signatories I can only assume it's pre-compliant with this exhortation so I guess we can all wait and see just what it might entail.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence and Security 6546	Posted - 2016.10.16 01:56:31 - [146] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Speaking of the modern state of the cloning industry, when is the last time that any of us had to choose the quality of our clone body? I did, just last night. I lovely group of pilots from The Culture invited me to decide if I wanted to choose the pristine clone I have in 9CG, or the rather shot-up one I was currently using in G95. Needless to say, I chose the pristine clone. Scar tissue builds character. But, and this is the point, we used to make jokes about making sure not to choose a clone made from potato peelings in case we suffered personality alteration and large-scale memory loss. These days, I believe, all clone providers handle the same high-quality clone product. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Vollhov Jr SOERI Academy RED University 104	Posted - 2016.10.19 11:59:01 - [147] - Quote The flesh is not the main thing, the main thing is the soul. The flesh is just a vessel for the soul. Council forgot to mention Keral (very sad story as a mother wanted to save her son) What the new era says Catiz ? Empress Jamyl I Coronation/Eve Online Gallery/Token of Submission
Mark Neismith Singular Inc. 1	Posted - 2016.10.20 07:43:11 - [148] - Quote I find it amusing and disturbing the same time, watching the turmoil that this news caused to the capsuleers society ... Tell me Ladies and Gentlemen, do you REALLY need to be told by - say it a Theology Council, local sham or any other drug-abused fella that have suddenly decided that the burning bush in his delirium is talking - wether you have or have not a Soul?!
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2887	Posted - 2016.10.20 10:17:27 - [149] - Quote Mark Neismith wrote: I find it amusing and disturbing the same time, watching the turmoil that this news caused to the capsuleers society ... Tell me Ladies and Gentlemen, do you REALLY need to be told by - say it a Theology Council, local sham or any other drug-abused fella that have suddenly decided that the burning bush in his delirium is talking - wether you have or have not a Soul?! Almost half of our cluster lives and dies with the Faith. So, guess what? Yes. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Mark Neismith Singular Inc. 1	Posted - 2016.10.20 10:45:01 - [150] - Quote Faith have nothing to do with this, commander Kim. Ignorance and bliss on the other hand ...
Karmilla Strife Societas Imperialis Tenura 476	Posted - 2016.10.20 11:47:27 - [151] - Quote Perhaps then you should form your own society with an Ignorance Council?
Mark Neismith Singular Inc. 1	Posted - 2016.10.20 12:02:00 - [152] - Quote I dont think it is needed - the current one seems to do perfectly well
Skyweir Kinnison Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 292	Posted - 2016.10.20 12:36:50 - [153] - Quote Mark Neismith wrote: I find it amusing and disturbing the same time, watching the turmoil that this news caused to the capsuleers society ... Tell me Ladies and Gentlemen, do you REALLY need to be told by - say it a Theology Council, local sham or any other drug-abused fella that have suddenly decided that the burning bush in his delirium is talking - wether you have or have not a Soul?! I like to be told by my Constitution that I have rights, and have that fact confirmed when warranted, by the fine, educated minds of the Supreme Court. It's especially satisfying when accompanied by a news holocast of Director Blaque's face turning puce. Most people like to have their beliefs reinforced by people they trust. Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2888	Posted - 2016.10.20 13:26:57 - [154] - Quote Skyweir Kinnison wrote: Mark Neismith wrote: I find it amusing and disturbing the same time, watching the turmoil that this news caused to the capsuleers society ... Tell me Ladies and Gentlemen, do you REALLY need to be told by - say it a Theology Council, local sham or any other drug-abused fella that have suddenly decided that the burning bush in his delirium is talking - wether you have or have not a Soul?! I like to be told by my Constitution that I have rights, and have that fact confirmed when warranted, by the fine, educated minds of the Supreme Court. It's especially satisfying when accompanied by a news holocast of Director Blaque's face turning puce. Most people like to have their beliefs reinforced by people they trust. While you will have your right, after this war it is us with Amarr Empire who will be left. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Luna Hanaya Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 188	Posted - 2016.10.20 14:57:37 - [155] - Quote Mark Neismith wrote: I dont think it is needed - the current one seems to do perfectly well With you as a Head Council and all the seats combined? (( If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community: Intergalactic Summit - IC router Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore ))
Karmilla Strife Societas Imperialis Tenura 479	Posted - 2016.10.21 00:15:35 - [156] - Quote Mark Neismith wrote: I dont think it is needed - the current one seems to do perfectly well I'm sorry, sometimes tone and minor details don't carry through on the IGS. Please clarify for me. Do you already have your own society, with an Ignorance Council, and it's doing perfectly well... or. Are you trying to be clever and suggest that the Theology Council is ignorant, but you're admitting that Amarrian Society is doing perfectly well? If that's the case, thank you for your support! Would you like a brochure?
Mark Neismith Singular Inc. 1	Posted - 2016.10.21 07:46:16 - [157] - Quote I must admit GÇô was in hibernation for a very long time. My Universal Translator software is probably out of date. As for me being a Head of my own Council GÇô you are most right GÇô I already am. And it councils only me. It is called personality, as far as I know. The only others allowed to have a seat in that Council are my friends and my family. Who knows - one day even you may get an invitation to join the round table And yes - I did try GÇ£to be cleverGÇ¥ and make some fun with those, who allow others to determine them GÇô but it seems instead of make them think of it even for a moment GÇô It caused the opposite. Oh, well I guess I have failed in that. Does this make me ignorant and blissful? It probably does GÇª But at least I know it was it was my call and mine alone. Can you say the same for yourself?
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 827	Posted - 2016.10.25 05:56:37 - [158] - Quote Does anyone else find it funny watching fully grown adults breathing a sigh of relief that someone has told them they still have a soul? Did you really require this exhortation to know that? Aren't you usually the most qualified person to figure that out for yourself? Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 828	Posted - 2016.10.25 20:01:56 - [159] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: Mark Neismith wrote: I find it amusing and disturbing the same time, watching the turmoil that this news caused to the capsuleers society ... Tell me Ladies and Gentlemen, do you REALLY need to be told by - say it a Theology Council, local sham or any other drug-abused fella that have suddenly decided that the burning bush in his delirium is talking - wether you have or have not a Soul?! Almost half of our cluster lives and dies with the Faith. So, guess what? Yes. Appeal to the People Fallacy: the fallacy that because many or most people believe something, it must be true, and that the number of people believing it is itself the evidence of its truth. It's as if you're a walking, breathing, possibly thinking, fallacy megaphone. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1730	Posted - 2016.10.25 20:10:18 - [160] - Quote Well, Jason, you see, it's about self-doubt and things of that nature. For a long time, capsuleers of the Amarr religion have had to struggle with the idea that they have no soul, that the soul they possessed prior to becoming a capsuleer has already reached the doors of Paradise, and been Judged as to whether they were worthy or not to enter. There has always been the nagging thought that "Perhaps I've made a huge mistake, and condemned my soul", that whatever actions they had done prior to becoming a capsuleer were not worthy enough to enter Paradise. Now, with the knowledge that they have a soul, that doubt can finally be put to rest. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 828	Posted - 2016.10.25 20:34:28 - [161] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: Well, Jason, you see, it's about self-doubt and things of that nature. I have plenty of self-doubt, as does anyone. However, more relevantly, I also doubt the ability of someone in a shiny bath robe to know more about me than I myself do. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 828	Posted - 2016.10.25 20:36:00 - [162] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: For a long time, capsuleers of the Amarr religion have had to struggle with the idea that they have no soul, that the soul they possessed prior to becoming a capsuleer has already reached the doors of Paradise, and been Judged as to whether they were worthy or not to enter. What a sad existence. Waiting for a post card from their former selves that just never would come. "Having a blast, wish you were here, but you'll never get here, you empty husk of flesh paste." What jerks they must've thought their original selves were. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1731	Posted - 2016.10.25 20:36:24 - [163] - Quote Jason Galente wrote: Valerie Valate wrote: Well, Jason, you see, it's about self-doubt and things of that nature. I have plenty of self-doubt, as does anyone. However, more relevantly, I also doubt the ability of someone in a shiny bath robe to know more about me than I myself do. Maybe your doctor wears a shiny bath robe ? Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 828	Posted - 2016.10.25 21:10:26 - [164] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: Jason Galente wrote: Valerie Valate wrote: Well, Jason, you see, it's about self-doubt and things of that nature. I have plenty of self-doubt, as does anyone. However, more relevantly, I also doubt the ability of someone in a shiny bath robe to know more about me than I myself do. Maybe your doctor wears a shiny bath robe ? A doctor follows the scientific method and values objective verifiability in his diagnoses. A good doctor, anyway. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1732	Posted - 2016.10.26 05:05:34 - [165] - Quote Jason Galente wrote: Valerie Valate wrote: Jason Galente wrote: Valerie Valate wrote: Well, Jason, you see, it's about self-doubt and things of that nature. I have plenty of self-doubt, as does anyone. However, more relevantly, I also doubt the ability of someone in a shiny bath robe to know more about me than I myself do. Maybe your doctor wears a shiny bath robe ? A doctor follows the scientific method and values objective verifiability in his diagnoses. A good doctor, anyway. Yes, but, see, your doctor probably knows more about the functionality and health of e.g. your spleen, than you do. They have tests and diagrams and all that, for that kind of thing. And if they also like shiny bath robes, then well, they'd be someone in a shiny bath robe that knows more about (part of) you than you do, no ? Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1732	Posted - 2016.10.26 05:38:59 - [166] - Quote Also, as a missionary, it means that I am not wasting my time, when attempting to share the Word with other capsuleers. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
xXuber-NitsheXx 83	Posted - 2016.10.26 06:27:59 - [167] - Quote Now that Comd Kims' and my DNA will be used for a new cloning program, I do have some ethical issues: Will our Clones be harvested for spare parts? Will they have the same rights as other Caldari citizens? Will the clones compete with one another for limited resources? Will the clones sense their common fraternity and work towards common goals? and Will the clones have free will or a moral compass? At least with natural children parents have a great influence shaping their future. Now I'm having second thoughts about letting our DNA go. Perhaps I better discuss batch testing and other issues with the facility before release into the public domain... Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 834	Posted - 2016.10.26 16:28:48 - [168] - Quote Val, they don't know more about 'me', they know more about 'the endocrine system', etc. The soul is a little bit different. Bit more.. personal, and holistic. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Matar Ronin 2286	Posted - 2016.10.26 17:05:20 - [169] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: Skyweir Kinnison wrote: Mark Neismith wrote: I find it amusing and disturbing the same time, watching the turmoil that this news caused to the capsuleers society ... Tell me Ladies and Gentlemen, do you REALLY need to be told by - say it a Theology Council, local sham or any other drug-abused fella that have suddenly decided that the burning bush in his delirium is talking - wether you have or have not a Soul?! I like to be told by my Constitution that I have rights, and have that fact confirmed when warranted, by the fine, educated minds of the Supreme Court. It's especially satisfying when accompanied by a news holocast of Director Blaque's face turning puce. Most people like to have their beliefs reinforced by people they trust. While you will have your right, after this war it is us with Amarr Empire who will be left. Death to the federation alone is not enough for her, now the cowardly faux tin soldier has added genocide for not one but two entire empires to her wishlist. Please no one tell her about the reclaiming that awaits the Caldari people if all the other people of the New Eden Cluster other then the slavery cultists were gone. She will operate quite efficiently once fitted with a slave collar and addicted to vitoc. Which would be required because she would fight for the criminal beliefs of the dead thug tibus heth and not voluntarily join the non-caldari faith of the slavery cultists. It is an undisputed fact that her current allies have a proven record of how they deal with those unwilling to accept their beliefs. As an extra added bonus in an unaided one vs. one fight the smaller tougher Caldari State might not, probably wouldn't, come out on top in a war against relentless reclaiming fleets sent by an otherwise unchallenged slavery cult. Admittedly a just reward for them supporting/enabling an evil slavery driven cult based empire. Fotunately for the Caldari State the Minmatar will never be defeated again by the slavery cultists and our existence/resistance protects future generations of Caldari whom like the Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr deserve to be born free. Clearly some cowardly faux tin soldier racist warmongers have not yet learned to be careful what they wish for. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1732	Posted - 2016.10.26 17:16:09 - [170] - Quote You are aware, that there are many, many Caldari who have willingly converted to the Imperial Faith ? right ? Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1732	Posted - 2016.10.26 17:49:54 - [171] - Quote Jason Galente wrote: Val, they don't know more about 'me', they know more about 'the endocrine system', etc. The soul is a little bit different. Bit more.. personal, and holistic. What about your psychoanalyst ? Maybe they like shiny robes too ? Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Deitra Vess Non-Hostile Target 1452	Posted - 2016.10.26 18:02:11 - [172] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: You are aware, that there are many, many Caldari who have willingly converted to the Imperial Faith ? right ? You are aware that they are still the minority right? I'm far from being a student of caldari history (though I'd love to learn more) but I would imagine that if they were so against what the Federation was looking to do they would be ten fold more adamant against forced reclaiming in their borders.... They are against slavery right? Pretty sure Kim has remarked about that on numerous occasions. I don't wish it upon them but I also can read the writing on the wall and I'm sure even she isn't blind to it.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1743	Posted - 2016.10.26 18:55:25 - [173] - Quote Sure, because we're really stupid enough to invade the State before we invade you. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Neph Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate 549	Posted - 2016.10.26 19:39:41 - [174] - Quote An overdue move. Now the Faithful Eggers don't have to be wracked with self-loathing. This Empress moves rapidly, it seems. At least, she's wasted no time securing her power over the Empire and solidifying her relationship with the Capsuleer population... I wonder what this move means for the future of the 24th? ~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~ "Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka
Deitra Vess Non-Hostile Target 1452	Posted - 2016.10.26 19:46:30 - [175] - Quote Didn't say you would before us, I simply meant "don't think your immune from it just because you play nice with them." I believe it was said the Caldari were on the list for reclamation. Kudos for honesty on that I guess. I'm assuming Kim will explain how the Caldari are stronger then the stupid tribals or some other xenophobic pet name she has for us and can overcome you unlike us(note the word "assuming" Kim, that implies an opinion not a truth). She should be happy were taking the role of meat shield if it really is her belief.
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 619	Posted - 2016.10.26 21:08:41 - [176] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Sure, because we're really stupid enough to invade the State before we invade you. Why not invade the State? I personally believe a very strong argument can be made for a Reclamation of the Caldari people. In fact I think it would be an ideal campaign, could easily come before Reclaiming the Federation, or Republic. As strength goes.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1745	Posted - 2016.10.26 21:22:49 - [177] - Quote There are about a thousand reasons, Ayallah, and it will take too long to explain them all here. This is not the thread for such a discussion anyway. Let's just rest assured that no one in the Empire is going to seriously consider a military Reclaiming of the State any time soon, if ever. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Pieter Tuulinen Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 6581	Posted - 2016.10.26 22:29:38 - [178] - Quote Ayallah wrote: Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Sure, because we're really stupid enough to invade the State before we invade you. Why not invade the State? I personally believe a very strong argument can be made for a Reclamation of the Caldari people. In fact I think it would be an ideal campaign, could easily come before Reclaiming the Federation, or Republic. Oh, you. You just want to see the Golden Fleet burn, don't you? For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 968	Posted - 2016.10.26 23:32:59 - [179] - Quote I cannot speak strongly enough against the idea of a military Reclamation of the State. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2505	Posted - 2016.10.27 01:14:31 - [180] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Ayallah wrote: Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Sure, because we're really stupid enough to invade the State before we invade you. Why not invade the State? I personally believe a very strong argument can be made for a Reclamation of the Caldari people. In fact I think it would be an ideal campaign, could easily come before Reclaiming the Federation, or Republic. Oh, you. You just want to see the Golden Fleet burn, don't you? "The Citadel": not much artistic license in that region's name.
The Leopardess Viziam Amarr Empire 76	Posted - 2016.10.27 06:08:10 - [181] - Quote This is great news I've taken vacation early to join my family to celebrate. No one questions the Theology Council. Except, apparently Aldrith Shutaq, against his own best interests, apparently? This finally gives Providence the edge it needs to succeed with the full backing of natural colonists considering how almost all of our spaceport clergy out there are capsuleers just out of necessity, they've been waiting for this news a long time. As for the Caldari State being Reclaimed, that is already being done, despite what you see on Gallente bleeding heart social justice holos not every reclaiming is bloody. Divine Providence has granted the Caldari people great military might and this in turn is already serving Amarr and thus serving the Lord of Amarr as it should. One has to remember that the Minmatar were engaging in all manner of undesirable activity when they were reclaimed and they were defiant from the start. The Caldari have never opposed Amarr supremacy and have always been cooperative. We owe all of that to the late great King Khanid, under God's will. It has been clear for some time that God's will is for the Caldari to be reclaimed through example alone and no bloodshed at the hands of our military. They will learn to hate iniquity as the Gallente are an embodiment of it and they will learn to love righteousness as Amarr is the embodiment of righteousness. The reclaiming is already happening and we do not have to fire a shot or take a single slave.
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 619	Posted - 2016.10.27 06:11:26 - [182] - Quote You are right, this is not the thread. However, I think a very strong argument can be made, strategically it is by far the best option and I will prove it. Some other time then. As strength goes.
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 619	Posted - 2016.10.27 06:12:49 - [183] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Oh, you. You just want to see the Golden Fleet burn, don't you? Numerically smallest military with no allies going against the largest one with a native EM hole? Perhaps I should present my ideas another time regardless. As strength goes.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1746	Posted - 2016.10.27 06:55:11 - [184] - Quote Please do not. The Leopardess wrote: This is great news I've taken vacation early to join my family to celebrate. No one questions the Theology Council. Except, apparently Aldrith Shutaq, against his own best interests, apparently? I'm sorry, where did I question the Theology Council? Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Veikitamo Gesakaarin Noticed. 2024	Posted - 2016.10.27 07:32:14 - [185] - Quote Remember that one time, when the Empire went, "Hey look at those Jove, they have a numerically inferior fleet with no allies, Reclaiming them will be really easy!" Veikitamo remembers.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1716	Posted - 2016.10.27 07:41:02 - [186] - Quote Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Remember that one time, when the Empire went, "Hey look at those Jove, they have a numerically inferior fleet with no allies, Reclaiming them will be really easy!" Veikitamo remembers. So you claim the Caldari Navy to be as powerful as the Jove Empire's battle-fleet? A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Pieter Tuulinen Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 6582	Posted - 2016.10.27 15:20:59 - [187] - Quote Ayallah wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Oh, you. You just want to see the Golden Fleet burn, don't you? Numerically smallest military with no allies going against the largest one with a native EM hole? Perhaps I should present my ideas another time regardless. I feel very hesitant in reminding you of a fact that you have demonstrated ample command of. Numbers are often an illusion, it is effectively projected force that matters. My friend, your time out in null has blinded you to the fact that the Navies are NOT the same as capsuleer fleets. You can't do a match-up of even a fleet of capsuleer hulls and say you know how a WAR would go down between two baseliner navies. The State has entire regions mobilised as military defence districts. Invading Citadel or The Forge would be like putting your head in a bee-hive. The Caldari Navy excels in fighting asymmetric battles against numerically superior foes and their tech edge is another force multiplier. As for the lack of allies - how long do you think it would be before the Tribes crossed both the border with Amarr to take advantage of the reduced defensive forces and the border into State space to get some Amarr crusader blood? The State and the Republic would jump at the chance to unite against the Empire under these circumstances and if you think the Federation would be very far behind, I'd imagine you'd be mistaken. Whilst there would certainly be some in the Federation who would rejoice to see the State broken, those exact same factions would be the ones most opposed to a strengthened Empire. In the end, the invasion of State space would blunt and break the best formations of the Amarrian Navy, expose it to flank attacks from the Republic and politically isolate the Empire by destroying it's only ally. It would paint the Amarrian Empire as a rabid dog on permanent notice for an opportunity to attack any and all. I'm sure you know what would come next - the Clans would 'come for their people' and the Federation would 'end the despicable institution of slavery once and for all' and the sands of time would close over the oldest culture in New Eden forever. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 6582	Posted - 2016.10.27 15:24:08 - [188] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Remember that one time, when the Empire went, "Hey look at those Jove, they have a numerically inferior fleet with no allies, Reclaiming them will be really easy!" Veikitamo remembers. So you claim the Caldari Navy to be as powerful as the Jove Empire's battle-fleet? Would it have to be equally powerful with the Jove to be sufficiently powerful to prove the point? For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 337	Posted - 2016.10.27 15:26:50 - [189] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Remember that one time, when the Empire went, "Hey look at those Jove, they have a numerically inferior fleet with no allies, Reclaiming them will be really easy!" Veikitamo remembers. So you claim the Caldari Navy to be as powerful as the Jove Empire's battle-fleet? If there will be same amount of preparation and thought put as last time then any opponent will become as powerful as the Jove regardless of their actual power.
Aria Jenneth Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 2506	Posted - 2016.10.27 15:34:27 - [190] - Quote So-- can we please just let the whole "invade the State" thing go? Please? It's an awful idea. Pieter's not wrong about the State's defenses, but even if the Empire won, it'd be wounded and alone against the undivided attention of two dedicated enemies. And for me, personally, if I stayed true to my oath.... This hurts even to think about. Please stop. Not just here; for good. Please.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1718	Posted - 2016.10.27 15:44:00 - [191] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Elmund Egivand wrote: Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Remember that one time, when the Empire went, "Hey look at those Jove, they have a numerically inferior fleet with no allies, Reclaiming them will be really easy!" Veikitamo remembers. So you claim the Caldari Navy to be as powerful as the Jove Empire's battle-fleet? Would it have to be equally powerful with the Jove to be sufficiently powerful to prove the point? The point is before bragging about anything, step back and reassess the situation first. Arrogance precipitates a dizzying fall and all that. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Nicoletta Mithra Tekaima Community of New Eden Pilgrims 787	Posted - 2016.10.27 15:45:13 - [192] - Quote The Empire has no intention to go against it's word and attack it's allies. I trust the same is true for the State. Thus, all the 'Empire vs State' speculation is moot.
Matar Ronin 2288	Posted - 2016.10.27 16:10:12 - [193] - Quote Nicoletta Mithra wrote: The Empire has no intention to go against it's word and attack it's allies. I trust the same is true for the State. Thus, all the 'Empire vs State' speculation is moot. "There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do no believe. ---- Book of Reclaiming, 25:10 If you think the slavery cultists put any alliance before their demonic beliefs I wish you luck with that. For all intelligent people the question is not "if" the slavery cultists will turn on the Caldari State but "when". GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1749	Posted - 2016.10.27 16:19:31 - [194] - Quote Oh, look, Ayallah opened the can of worms and Pieter has started dumping them on the table. I knew this would happen. Stop it. Nobody likes worms. Especially worms that might weaken an alliance that both of our nations are made better by. Stop being stupid. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Pieter Tuulinen Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 6583	Posted - 2016.10.27 16:30:33 - [195] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Oh, look, Ayallah opened the can of worms and Pieter has started dumping them on the table. I knew this would happen. Stop it. Nobody likes worms. Especially worms that might weaken an alliance that both of our nations are made better by. Stop being stupid. Aldrith, you should have more faith than that. The Alliance stands because it stands on its merits - we're allies because both of us bring something to the table and certainly not because we like each other. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1749	Posted - 2016.10.27 16:38:12 - [196] - Quote I like Caldari. Are you saying you don't like us? Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Matar Ronin 2288	Posted - 2016.10.27 16:42:45 - [197] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Oh, look, Ayallah opened the can of worms and Pieter has started dumping them on the table. I knew this would happen. Stop it. Nobody likes worms. Especially worms that might weaken an alliance that both of our nations are made better by. Stop being stupid. Aldrith, you should have more faith than that. The Alliance stands because it stands on its merits - we're allies because both of us bring something to the table and certainly not because we like each other. Pilot Tuulinen might I trouble you for some links that could educate me about the religious and spiritual practices in the Caldari State. I must confess to not having as deep an understanding of their practices as I should. If you wish not to share them in this thread as a distraction a personal email would be greatly appreciated. However I suspect I am not the only non-Caldari whom would benefit from a greater understanding of the religious and spiritual practices of the Caldari people. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1733	Posted - 2016.10.27 16:53:44 - [198] - Quote One would think that the State and the Empire would become closer in the coming years, because: The Caldari are traditionally quite business and trade orientated. And in Empress Catiz 1, the Empire has an unprecedentedly business and trade orientated ruler. I'm quite sure that the Caldari would be interested in obtaining greater access to a market consisting of some 40% of the entire human population. And numerous Holders and wealthy commoners would similarly be interested in increasing their wealth, which would probably be more socially acceptable, with Empress Catiz 1 on the throne. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Samira Kernher 2898	Posted - 2016.10.27 17:18:27 - [199] - Quote The question is indeed not if. It is our duty to Reclaim all of God's creations. The question is "when", and "how". It could happen a decade from now, or it could be a thousand years from now. It could happen with all the force the Golden Fleet could bear, after a treaty expires or is broken, or through spiritual conquering and political domination regardless of the state the alliance is in. Both our nations know that and plan for that. As does every nation of even the smallest size. Military exercises, contingency plans, youth indoctrination, propaganda, and other cultural safeguards, that's all there to build up a nation and prepare it to counter threats to its existence or to expand its sphere of influence. We could get into arguments about who's dad could beat up who, but that's really rather pointless when every side already knows all the facts we do and more and have already thought and rethought ways of countering them, ways the enemy might counter those counters, and so on. And that the fight may not even be a fight at all, and is happening at this very minute in the war of culture, diplomacy, and the market (you can boil all three down to "the market of ideas" I suppose. That's the term Pieter likes to use).
Matar Ronin 2288	Posted - 2016.10.27 17:21:40 - [200] - Quote The Leopardess wrote: As for the Caldari State being Reclaimed, that is already being done, despite what you see on Gallente bleeding heart social justice holos not every reclaiming is bloody. Divine Providence has granted the Caldari people great military might and this in turn is already serving Amarr and thus serving the Lord of Amarr as it should. The Caldari have never opposed Amarr supremacy and have always been cooperative. It has been clear for some time that God's will is for the Caldari to be reclaimed through example alone and no bloodshed at the hands of our military. The reclaiming is already happening and we do not have to fire a shot or take a single slave. It is clear that the Caldari in their escape from all they found distasteful in the Federation have jumped out of the frying pan an into the fire. Let it not be said they did so unknowingly. To serve as the cooperative tools to the evil of the slavery cultists is a dangerous balancing act. The slavery cultists make it clear what their end game is. The end game of a free Caldari State is in direct opposition to it, how many people think that will remain always okay with the slavery cultists? The alliance is based on current short sighted military mutual benefits and not long term mutual values. Sadly for the Caldari State "WHEN" they have to finally square off against the reclaiming slavery cultists it will be after Caldari efforts have for years been nourishing them. I don't think all the profits in New Eden are worth selling another people to the slavery cult's none too tender mercy, I pray the CEP arouses from the siren song of the slavers before it is too late. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Nauplius Hoi Andrapodistai 677	Posted - 2016.10.27 21:39:29 - [201] - Quote We outnumber the Caldari State subhumans 5 to 1 not including the Khanid Kingdom. And as Ayallah notes, they have a native vulnerability to our weapons. What are we waiting for? They don't have a chance against us, and if our Empress were anything but a pathetic, moneygrubbing merchant she'd have ordered the invasion the moment after she was crowned.
Pieter Tuulinen Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 6590	Posted - 2016.10.27 22:08:08 - [202] - Quote Nauplius wrote: We outnumber the Caldari State subhumans 5 to 1 not including the Khanid Kingdom. And as Ayallah notes, they have a native vulnerability to our weapons. What are we waiting for? They don't have a chance against us, and if our Empress were anything but a pathetic, moneygrubbing merchant she'd have ordered the invasion the moment after she was crowned. With respects, my people have heard that tune before. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 835	Posted - 2016.10.27 22:26:23 - [203] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: Jason Galente wrote: Val, they don't know more about 'me', they know more about 'the endocrine system', etc. The soul is a little bit different. Bit more.. personal, and holistic. What about your psychoanalyst ? Maybe they like shiny robes too ? My psychoanalyst retired. It had nothing to do with me. At all. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 337	Posted - 2016.10.27 22:57:50 - [204] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: I like Caldari. Are you saying you don't like us? Their ships look weird, just take a look at the drake for starters it's like piece of cardboard bent on both sides, that's so strange.
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1753	Posted - 2016.10.27 23:08:28 - [205] - Quote At least they've begun to learn how to design symmetrically. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 974	Posted - 2016.10.27 23:12:31 - [206] - Quote Might I direct your attention to the Omen-class hull? Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Samira Kernher 2901	Posted - 2016.10.27 23:17:00 - [207] - Quote Or the Aeon.
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 836	Posted - 2016.10.27 23:19:47 - [208] - Quote Samira Kernher wrote: Or the Aeon. Lights! Camera! Action! Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Ayallah Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 621	Posted - 2016.10.28 01:17:46 - [209] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: The State has entire regions mobilised as military defence districts. Invading Citadel or The Forge would be like putting your head in a bee-hive. The Caldari Navy excels in fighting asymmetric battles against numerically superior foes and their tech edge is another force multiplier. As for the lack of allies - how long do you think it would be before the Tribes crossed both the border with Amarr to take advantage of the reduced defensive forces and the border into State space to get some Amarr crusader blood? The State and the Republic would jump at the chance to unite against the Empire under these circumstances and if you think the Federation would be very far behind, I'd imagine you'd be mistaken. Whilst there would certainly be some in the Federation who would rejoice to see the State broken, those exact same factions would be the ones most opposed to a strengthened Empire. In the end, the invasion of State space would blunt and break the best formations of the Amarrian Navy, expose it to flank attacks from the Republic and politically isolate the Empire by destroying it's only ally. It would paint the Amarrian Empire as a rabid dog on permanent notice for an opportunity to attack any and all. I'm sure you know what would come next - the Clans would 'come for their people' and the Federation would 'end the despicable institution of slavery once and for all' and the sands of time would close over the oldest culture in New Eden forever. You are correct about every point, maybe you forgot I began as a pilot flying Condors and hearing your stories about how the State won its freedom and Tovil-Toba. I did not say invasion of the State would be easy or I do not respect them in war. Especially a war for survival. I have considered many things in this but now is not a good time to talk about them. I think you would see the reason in my argument when I make it. But another time. Samira Kernher wrote: The question is indeed not if. It is our duty to Reclaim all of God's creations. The question is "when", and "how". It could happen a decade from now, or it could be a thousand years from now. It could happen with all the force the Golden Fleet could bear, after a treaty expires or is broken, or through spiritual conquering and political domination regardless of the state the alliance is in. It is important to consider the truth of this. Even those Amarrians that are uncomfortable with the idea. Consider also that other Nations are better Reclaimed in other ways or at other times. The Republic is a perfect example of being prime for cultural Reclaiming. The Amarrian Religion and its permutations that have evolved from mixing with Matari spiritualism are a very significant portion of the population in the Republic. Tribal Traditional practices are weaker than they have been since the revolt. Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Aldrith, you should have more faith than that. The Alliance stands because it stands on its merits - we're allies because both of us bring something to the table and certainly not because we like each other. Which is of course true. For this reason I believe it is the hope of some for the State to be as the Khanid. Anyway, some other thread. As strength goes.
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 974	Posted - 2016.10.28 02:21:03 - [210] - Quote I would be overjoyed for my former brethren to join the Empire and faith. I hope to see that one day. However, that is significantly less likely to happen if we try to force the issue. It would be criminally stupid to invade the State when the Gallente are like, right there. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin Noticed. 2026	Posted - 2016.10.28 06:02:34 - [211] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Remember that one time, when the Empire went, "Hey look at those Jove, they have a numerically inferior fleet with no allies, Reclaiming them will be really easy!" Veikitamo remembers. So you claim the Caldari Navy to be as powerful as the Jove Empire's battle-fleet? No, I'm saying Amarrian Reclaimers seem to have this tendency to proclaim Deus Vult! Without considering there may be a proverbial cliff in front of them. With the Jove it was a failure to consider their technology and apparently with the Caldari it is a failure to consider the State military is designed to fight defensive battles against numerically superior opponents. So the only outcome is as already outlined -- the Empire invades the State, gets stuck, and the Fed and Republic counter-invade. I guess some Amarrians want a war vs the State, Fed, Republic and Drifters though.
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 338	Posted - 2016.10.28 14:33:47 - [212] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: At least they've begun to learn how to design symmetrically. Indeed, cultural exchange certainly bear fruit. Alizabeth Vea wrote: Might I direct your attention to the Omen-class hull? Dynamic symmetry is essence of symmetry within life and is pleasing for the viewer's eye. Samira Kernher wrote: Or the Aeon. Aeon hull is a real beauty for every true and devoted servant of God, just saying.
The Leopardess Viziam Amarr Empire 77	Posted - 2016.10.29 11:44:17 - [213] - Quote Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Please do not. The Leopardess wrote: This is great news I've taken vacation early to join my family to celebrate. No one questions the Theology Council. Except, apparently Aldrith Shutaq, against his own best interests, apparently? I'm sorry, where did I question the Theology Council? On having a soul, you stated "Nice to see that possibility may be validated." instead of "Nice to see the possibility is validated."
Ascentior PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 265	Posted - 2016.10.30 22:30:36 - [214] - Quote Jason Galente wrote: What a sad existence. Waiting for a post card from their former selves that just never would come. "Having a blast, wish you were here, but you'll never get here, you empty husk of flesh paste." What jerks they must've thought their original selves were. It is not the nature of our former self that should hold our concern. Indeed, we all should be very considerate of what sort of current self we have become, and what it will take to be the future self that we would hope to be. Admiral of PIE Inc., Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris (See 'PIE Public' for recruitment) Honorary Fabricator-General of the Imperial Navy Chosen by God to serve the Empire.
Templar Thal Vadam Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 13	Posted - 2016.10.31 16:20:21 - [215] - Quote Huh.....well isn't that swell
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1759	Posted - 2016.10.31 22:10:49 - [216] - Quote The Leopardess wrote: On having a soul, you stated "Nice to see that possibility may be validated." instead of "Nice to see the possibility is validated." That is because the recommendation has not yet been recognized as Scriptural canon. The article clearly states: "The exhortation, an advisory judgment on the interpretation of Amarr scripture, adopts a newly unified position on the status of cloned human beings in the Amarr religion..." The important clause here is "advisory judgement on the interpretation of Amarr scripture", stating the Theology Council believes this to be the case and is awaiting for consensus from other parties. Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade Lord Consort of House Sarum
Vollhov Jr SOERI Academy 120	Posted - 2016.11.01 20:12:12 - [217] - Quote To start a new era in New Eden. Amarr Empire traditionally is necessary make a sacrifice. Empress Jamyl I Coronation/Eve Online Gallery/Token of Submission

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