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[IKAME] Directive Alpha Gamma 12 and the Society

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Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8746	Posted - 2016.10.16 19:00:20 - [1] - Quote Pilots; The ScopeGÇÖs recent report on Sisters of EVE cloning advancements has left us with a wealth of questions: how was this developed? Does it rely on recovered Sleeper or Drifter technology? What are the technical merits of the technology? Is it compatible with existing cloning technology? Why was it shared freely with the Empires, but not via standard CONCORD channels? Does the Society have access to this technology, and has it had time to analyze it? With these new questions, we are still faced with the simple truth that the Sisters of EVE have not reliably shared information about their actions, actions which may have severe repercussions for the cluster at large. We still know little about the events leading up to the discovery and colonization of Thera, or what the Sisters have learned about the Sleepers, Drifters, or CarolineGÇÖs Star, much less how they learned it. To address this issue, on the assumption that the Sisters have not engaged in technology sharing with the Society, we ask CONCORD to use Directive Alpha Gamma 12 with this specific aim: expand the technology sharing directive to include the Society of Conscious Thought. Previously, it was no doubt not necessary to concern the assembly with the Jove Empire, as Jove technology was widely considered to beyond the capabilities of other empires. While the Society is the recipient of Jove knowledge and is not known as a military power in the cluster, we do not know the limit of Society technology, but have full faith that their ingenuity and investment in technologies advanced by the Jove will merit their inclusion, and will provide the cluster a better understanding of the merits and drawbacks of the SistersGÇÖ novel cloning methodology. In service, Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Matias Kurovassi Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.10.17 05:59:26 - [2] - Quote What if the Society always had access to the particular cloning technology and the SSoE just wanted a means to ensure its dissemination without Society/CONCORD interference by playing to signatory self-interest?
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8749	Posted - 2016.10.17 06:07:58 - [3] - Quote A possibility, sure, but I will admit that I am, personally, past the point of assigning glorious nobility to Sister intentions when it deals with advanced technology. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Matias Kurovassi Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.10.17 07:31:39 - [4] - Quote I am not assigning any nobility to the actions of the SSoE as regards their proliferation of clone technology. In fact, what they did could be considered positively underhanded. The Jove Empire and now its successor, the Society, are the only CONCORD member not obligated to share their technology with others, so if this new cloning tech has Jovian roots then what the Sisters did was the best way to prevent the Society from blocking its potential widespread use.
Kybernetes Moros Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 14	Posted - 2016.10.17 13:38:21 - [5] - Quote I'm confused. The first paragraph poses a series of questions that nobody is obligated to answer. The second is a restatement of the well-worn maxim that the Sisters of EVE are a pretty shady bunch--something that was established many, many years before the Drifters came rollicking onto the scene. The third paragraph gave me mental whiplash. Whether or not the group sitting in for a Directorate that's at best on life support--and should probably have the plug pulled if it's still going, frankly--has this new and trendy technology truly doesn't interest me. I fail to grasp why throwing down the AG-12 card and shoving it in their face would address the issues in either paragraph, however. How responsible or reckless, communicative or close-mouthed, altruistic or alarming the Sisters are is (hopefully!) an almost orthogonal matter entirely, so that's the second paragraph out. Assuming that a group best known for some high-end schools and a series of very secretive misadventures described (generously) in rumours will be more forthcoming on what you wish to know about this cloning malarkey seems odd to me, dispensing with the first. I never did have a head for politics, though! I might be being far too blunt in how I look at the situation.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 560	Posted - 2016.10.17 13:46:40 - [6] - Quote There is always that thing about mixng conspiracy and discretion. Still I am personally more concerned with motives. SOE is a uh... humanitarian organisation among other things, so with all due respect to the fellow researchers from other organisations, what possible reason can outweight the potential misery these new pilots with immortality complex will inflict on the cluster? The question "why?" is probably more important than "how?" since we have enough data even on the open and leaked sources to connect some of the dots. SOCT, SOE and ARC are probably if not the most knowledgeable then the most active entities regarding Drifters. I say we are doing our part to ensure that the resarch we produce is useful to the cluster and is open for interested parties. It's high time we actually light the spotlight and stop wandering in the darkness. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 816	Posted - 2016.10.17 13:59:27 - [7] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: SOE is a uh... humanitarian organisation among other things, so with all due respect to the fellow researchers from other organisations, what possible reason can outweight the potential misery these new pilots with immortality complex will inflict on the cluster? Simple, the more capsuleers there are, the less baseliners there are for capsuleers to senselessly slaughter, it levels off at some point. What exactly gives *you* the right to be a capsuleer, but nobody else? It shouldn't be a random genetic lottery for a select very few. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 560	Posted - 2016.10.17 14:15:02 - [8] - Quote The money my parents invested in me and my determination not to die during the process among other things. Jason, you are well aware of the things we do during the training process. How many capsuleers are basically acting as pirates right now? I was reminded of it during the Origin defence. How many of them will behave like complete lunatics drugged with their new power with the introduction of this new tech? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Matar Ronin 2210	Posted - 2016.10.17 15:39:28 - [9] - Quote Sometimes people react poorly when they discover they are left out of the loop. The expectation that they understood the dynamics of how things actually worked on levels far above their pay grade once proven untrue can jar them from their game. Some groups you trust because they have shared limited info with you in the past and other groups you don't feel so comfy with because they don't include you in their e-mail list. Put ego aside, fear on the back burner, and learn by observation. Perhaps the people who did not share in advance the data you request just don't know or trust you. Asking for action to be initiated based on admitted assumptions is at best very shaky ground. Because you like the SOCT you think the SOE should be obligated to share info with them? Dare I say you haven't yet convinced capsuleers that is a good idea which means your chances of convincing agencies whose waste disposal budgets probably dwarf your total operations is very unlikely. Sometimes despite a long list of accomplishments and accolades we are just not as important to others as we think we should be, don't get mad, just get beyond it. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8749	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:03:47 - [10] - Quote Kybernetes; Noone is obligated to answer these questions, absolutely. Still, when a humanitarian organization distributes a technology that is easily militarized to the four empires, bypassing a joint treaty organization and possibly the only other organization with as much knowledge of cloning and infomorph technology as they do, I feel obligated to at least ask the questions. It might be shouting at the wind, for all we know. It might just result in my being embarrassed. I can deal with that. Now, whether or not using AG-12 to ensure Society access to the technology is an aggressive step, it is a potential response to the very short list of reasons why the Sisters might not have been forthcoming toward CONCORD and the Society; after all, they either did it for spite (which just doesn't make sense for any large organization), did it to ensure that Empire support was too strong before CONCORD could attempt to put the brakes to it, or did it to reduce Society analysis before the technology was widespread and couldn't be pulled back safely. In the last case, after all, how would you get any one Empire to unilaterally disarm, when you have enemies that may not? We can't very well compel the Sisters to answer all those nagging questions about the Sanctuary's efforts on the side of wormholes and FTL technology, nor can we necessarily compel them to share the objective of their crowdsourced Drifter tissue analysis project, but perhaps we can at least have a competent, non-military organization analyze this new technology to ensure the Sisters haven't handed us Pandora's Box with a bow on it. Matar Ronin; uh. Huh? I'm not asking anyone to give ARC or IKAME access to the technology, nor do I honestly think we're big or important. Certainly, we punch above our weight on scientific endeavors, but-- we're tiny. IKAME itself is only barely larger than your alliance. I don't expect anyone to listen to us, or even care, but does that mean I should just let apathy reign and do nothing? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Jjaro Durandal University of Caille Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:11:21 - [11] - Quote Under the assumption The Society had no idea of this development, the cluster is painted a rather dark hue. I wouldn't be one to make that presumption.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8749	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:16:39 - [12] - Quote In this instance, Ms. Durandal, I'll happily be mistaken. My assumption at present is that the Society had basic knowledge of what was happening, but may not have full access to the specifications of the new cloning architecture. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Matar Ronin 2221	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:22:44 - [13] - Quote Pilot Priano I certainly don't expect apathy from you, I suspect you will lead. The motives behind your discomfort with the SOE are more troubling then their actions. Your demand to get them to share info with SOCT because they shared info with the big four empires seemed at best misguided. You want to sanction them for sharing info, by forcing them to share info? I admit your position confuses me. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8750	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:29:39 - [14] - Quote Tell me, Mr. Ronin. If, for instance, the Sisters had shared this technology with the Society, the Federation, the State, and the Empire, bypassing CONCORD and the Republic, would you not also assume there was some motivation, and want to rectify it or at least know why such a thing occurred? Very simply, the Sisters made a very specific effort here to cut out of the loop several organizations. It might be for the silliest and most minor of reasons, but I'd prefer to know than to not know, or to see it rectified rather than to let it go unaddressed. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Kybernetes Moros Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 15	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:37:04 - [15] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Now, whether or not using AG-12 to ensure Society access to the technology is an aggressive step, it is a potential response to the very short list of reasons why the Sisters might not have been forthcoming toward CONCORD and the Society; after all, they either did it for spite (which just doesn't make sense for any large organization), did it to ensure that Empire support was too strong before CONCORD could attempt to put the brakes to it, or did it to reduce Society analysis before the technology was widespread and couldn't be pulled back safely. In the last case, after all, how would you get any one Empire to unilaterally disarm, when you have enemies that may not? "An aggressive step" wouldn't have been my choice of phrasing, but it works in the sense of "aggressive treatment", I suppose! None of what you say is nonsense, but it all rests on the assumption that there's some conspiracy in the first place. It could just be the State and Republic quickly shouting "Us too!" in response to the Federal and Imperial beans getting spilled. Like you say, if your enemies have something, it's good to be able to match it in kind! There's no reason that the Society don't have the same stuff in some store cupboard somewhere and just decided to keep out of the grandstanding, being the ostensibly neutral guys in the room. Alternatively, there could be some terribly exciting conniving going on behind the scenes, and the Society might have been left scratching their heads and furiously searching Galnet at the announcements. In that case, I still question the utility of waving AG-12 around to address the actual concerns you raise, but hey! It doesn't harm me or mine--or you and yours, them and theirs, or indeed anybody that I care to think of. It's thoroughly positive sum, even if the "positive" part is a bit on the thin side. (Caveat lector! I rather hope in one way that there is some shadowy undertone to this. I'm not sold on how likely the scenario is, but it's so much more engrossing if it's more of a spy thriller than a bout of grandstanding, don't you think?)
Matar Ronin 2221	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:38:14 - [16] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Tell me, Mr. Ronin. If, for instance, the Sisters had shared this technology with the Society, the Federation, the State, and the Empire, bypassing CONCORD and the Republic, would you not also assume there was some motivation, and want to rectify it or at least know why such a thing occurred? Very simply, the Sisters made a very specific effort here to cut out of the loop several organizations. It might be for the silliest and most minor of reasons, but I'd prefer to know than to not know, or to see it rectified rather than to let it go unaddressed. Pilot Priano I do not put the SOCT on the same level as the big four, if you do I hope you are happy with that. The big four each have trillions of citizens living under their control and influence, can the same be said of SOCT? Your accusations of what the motives of the SOE are might all be correct, and they might all be wrong. You simply rang the alarm bell without sufficient evidence pilot, in my humble less informed opinion GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Tyrel Toov Non-Hostile Target 854	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:41:42 - [17] - Quote Well, regardless of their reasons, the damage has been done. The question now shouldn't be "how" or "why", but "what do we do now?" I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8750	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:49:29 - [18] - Quote What can I say, Kyber? All of those casual flybys of the Sisters flotillas in Drifter systems have left me wondering. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Matar Ronin 2221	Posted - 2016.10.17 16:50:55 - [19] - Quote Sometimes the best way to prove to everyone something is redundant and non-essential is to bypass it all together. Did that just happen to the SOCT? GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Jjaro Durandal University of Caille Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2016.10.17 17:37:47 - [20] - Quote @MatarRonin Did you make that comment seriously?
Aradina Varren Alexylva Paradox 84	Posted - 2016.10.17 18:24:57 - [21] - Quote Jjaro Durandal wrote: @MatarRonin Did you make that comment seriously? For the sake of everyone, I hope not.
Jennifer Starfall Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 325	Posted - 2016.10.18 00:06:37 - [22] - Quote Matar Ronin wrote: Pilot Priano I do not put the SOCT on the same level as the big four, if you do I hope you are happy with that. The big four each have trillions of citizens living under their control and influence, can the same be said of SOCT? Your accusations of what the motives of the SOE are might all be correct, and they might all be wrong. You simply rang the alarm bell without sufficient evidence pilot, in my humble less informed opinion The CONCORD Inner Circle, as defined by the Yulai Accords, considers the Society on the same level as the "big four" as they are now the holder of the Jove's seat on the council. The Jovian Directorate had a seat equal to the each of the seats of the four main empires. They withdrew from the Inner Circle and named the Society of Conscious Thought as their successor. So, as Makoto illustrated, this is on the same level as the Sisters circumventing any of the other four consistuent members of the Inner Circle. Furthermore, the Society not only inherited the Jovian's seat on the Inner Circle, but also their corporate and technological assets. Of particular note in this circumstance is the Jovian medical technology. And the Sisters avoided exposing their new cloning technology to the Society. And given the presence that the Sisters have been maintaining in the Drifter Hives? If we care at all for the safety of humanity, we have an obligation to raise a concern. Jennifer Starfall Fifth Seyllin Conference
Jjaro Durandal University of Caille Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2016.10.18 01:29:42 - [23] - Quote From my brief glance at the article; it seemed as if CONCORD had it issue with the cloning tech laying firmly in the realm of military application by the 'big four'. More than likely in their use of it against one another.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2534	Posted - 2016.10.18 01:44:58 - [24] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: we ask CONCORD to use Directive Alpha Gamma 12 Before we call upon CONCORD to invoke Directive Alpha Gamma 12, perhaps we might want to actually be allowed to know the text of Directive Alpha Gamma 12? I mean, if the Directive indicates that all parties have to be brought up to parity with the other powers, it's possible that the Society has this technology already, and the Sisters were bringing everyone else to parity. We simply don't know. And therein lies a significant chunk of the problems we have evaluating any of CONCORD's moves: We don't actually have the text of the Yulai Accords. Which means there's all sorts of technicalities and questions about CONCORD's behavior, options, and even their powers, that we're simply not able to evaluate. And with CONCORD claiming the mandate of governing our actions and interactions, shouldn't we be entitled to know the actual text of the laws we're supposed to be governed by?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2534	Posted - 2016.10.18 01:53:50 - [25] - Quote Jennifer Starfall wrote: And the Sisters avoided exposing their new cloning technology to the Society. For all we know, the Sisters didn't give the Society this technology becauseGÇöas you point outGÇöthe Society has the Jove biotech library, which likely includes cloning technology. To think that the clone and pod technology that the Jove shared with us was their most advanced examples would be the height of hubris. It's very likely this entire request is akin to requesting that the Caldari State be forced to share butane fire technology with the Amarr Empire.
Matar Ronin 2228	Posted - 2016.10.18 03:20:30 - [26] - Quote Jennifer Starfall wrote: Matar Ronin wrote: Pilot Priano I do not put the SOCT on the same level as the big four, if you do I hope you are happy with that. The big four each have trillions of citizens living under their control and influence, can the same be said of SOCT? Your accusations of what the motives of the SOE are might all be correct, and they might all be wrong. You simply rang the alarm bell without sufficient evidence pilot, in my humble less informed opinion The CONCORD Inner Circle, as defined by the Yulai Accords, considers the Society on the same level as the "big four" as they are now the holder of the Jove's seat on the council. The Jovian Directorate had a seat equal to the each of the seats of the four main empires. They withdrew from the Inner Circle and named the Society of Conscious Thought as their successor. So, as Makoto illustrated, this is on the same level as the Sisters circumventing any of the other four consistuent members of the Inner Circle. Furthermore, the Society not only inherited the Jovian's seat on the Inner Circle, but also their corporate and technological assets. Of particular note in this circumstance is the Jovian medical technology. And the Sisters avoided exposing their new cloning technology to the Society. And given the presence that the Sisters have been maintaining in the Drifter Hives? If we care at all for the safety of humanity, we have an obligation to raise a concern. Something went bump in the night and some of you are flailing about like maniacs. You don't know what SOE was obligated to share, you suspect, but you don't know. You don't know why SOE didn't share, you suspect, but you don't know. You don't know what SOCT knows, because they haven't shared it with capsuleers, you suspect, but you don't know. About the only thing you know is that things, seemingly important things are happening way above your pay grade and you want to stomp your feet, pout, and demand action. Really? Can any citizen of the New Eden Cluster demand that Directive AG 12 be invoked? Or just the really self important ones? When did the New Eden Cluster become a monarchy? Power is inherited by the SOCT? When was that written before or after it happened? The entire angry silly rant is moot because Concord does not respond to capsuleer complaints, they will invoke no actions against anyone because a few capsuleers think the SOE is not playing by the rules. Not that those making the complaints even know the rules or the context, you suspect, but you don't really know. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Matar Ronin 2228	Posted - 2016.10.18 03:40:40 - [27] - Quote Quote: In a turn of events that one source described as "satisfyingly embarrassing for the Inspector General", each delegation confirmed that they had been supplied the basic specifications of the technology by the SOE. The official communique notes the "development of novel techniques in cloning and personality transfer technology", affirms the "legality of its use for military purposes by signatories to the Yulai Convention" and "regrets that the Sisters of EVE have seen fit to bypass CONCORD treaties and the proper procedures for the transfer and sharing of technology within the interstellar community". Perhaps I am wrong here and please correct me if I am. It seems like SOE shared the info that has a military application with every power in the Yulai Conference that has a military. Does the SOCT have a Navy or other sizable military force I am unaware of? If SOCT did not know what was going on in the domains of the big four it's smoking gun proof that just because you inherit a seat doesn't make you qualified to sit in it. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8757	Posted - 2016.10.18 03:56:38 - [28] - Quote Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Matar Ronin 2228	Posted - 2016.10.18 04:49:24 - [29] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Well yes I can admit that possibility, will you? GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Claudia Osyn Non-Hostile Target 2127	Posted - 2016.10.18 15:25:35 - [30] - Quote Matar Ronin wrote: Makoto Priano wrote: Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Well yes I can admit that possibility, will you? Priano's public relation skills are flawless, she would never behave in such a manner. Besides, what would she rant about? A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Matar Ronin 2232	Posted - 2016.10.18 16:34:15 - [31] - Quote Claudia Osyn wrote: Matar Ronin wrote: Makoto Priano wrote: Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Well yes I can admit that possibility, will you? Priano's public relation skills are flawless, she would never behave in such a manner. Besides, what would she rant about? Yawn, forum groupies, why they find it necessary to speak for their heroes always entertains, but only mildly. That high school need to identify with the cool kids syndrome runs strong with some many years after they should have matured beyond it. Imagine a human being with "flawless public relation skills", lol. The sad for the forum groupie part is that Pilot Priano herself would never claim such a thing. GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ " We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Deitra Vess Non-Hostile Target 1444	Posted - 2016.10.18 16:41:58 - [32] - Quote Matar Ronin wrote: Claudia Osyn wrote: Matar Ronin wrote: Makoto Priano wrote: Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Well yes I can admit that possibility, will you? Priano's public relation skills are flawless, she would never behave in such a manner. Besides, what would she rant about? Yawn, forum groupies, why they find it necessary to speak for their heroes always entertains, but only mildly. That high school need to identify with the cool kids syndrome runs strong with some many years after they should have matured beyond it. Imagine a human being with "flawless public relation skills", lol. The sad for the forum groupie part is that Pilot Priano herself would never claim such a thing. She's far from flawless. She is however less flawed than many others. Also I don't see her stepping in on many things aside from ARC matters. She doesn't really have that many things to rant about unless it's about her own endeavors which would be odd to say the least.
Jennifer Starfall Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 325	Posted - 2016.10.18 21:45:42 - [33] - Quote Arrendis wrote: Jennifer Starfall wrote: And the Sisters avoided exposing their new cloning technology to the Society. For all we know, the Sisters didn't give the Society this technology becauseGÇöas you point outGÇöthe Society has the Jove biotech library, which likely includes cloning technology. To think that the clone and pod technology that the Jove shared with us was their most advanced examples would be the height of hubris. It's very likely this entire request is akin to requesting that the Caldari State be forced to share butane fire technology with the Amarr Empire. My worry isn't that the technology is superior to what the Society already has access to via former Jovian resources. My concern is that there is something inherently risky or dangerous about it that the Sisters are trying to hide. Jennifer Starfall Fifth Seyllin Conference
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 561	Posted - 2016.10.18 22:24:07 - [34] - Quote Arrendis, I don't see why your laziness to go over to the CONCORD's page and look at the text of Conventions should count as an argument "I can't read". You're what, a pod pilot and an officer, it shouldn't be that hard. Next time you are going to ask us how do you open doors with consoles? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2539	Posted - 2016.10.19 01:52:13 - [35] - Quote Well, Jaret, since you're so amazingly superior, why don't you quote the full text of Directive Alpha Gamma 12?
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1679	Posted - 2016.10.19 02:23:19 - [36] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Arrendis, I don't see why your laziness to go over to the CONCORD's page and look at the text of Conventions should count as an argument "I can't read". You're what, a pod pilot and an officer, it shouldn't be that hard. Next time you are going to ask us how do you open doors with consoles? She wouldn't have made that argument if she can actually find the documents to read. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 561	Posted - 2016.10.19 04:19:13 - [37] - Quote Here, I got this one for you. Directive Alpha Gamma 12 wrote: I am not your secretary. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 932	Posted - 2016.10.19 04:43:21 - [38] - Quote If you reproduce the full text of the Directive, I'll give you a billion ISK. However, I imagine you'll get the same answer as I did when I asked. Something, something, go away. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1681	Posted - 2016.10.19 05:26:14 - [39] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Here, I got this one for you. Directive Alpha Gamma 12 wrote: I am not your secretary. What kind of argument is this anyway - sorry officer, I didn't know you get arrested for killing people since I didn't read laws. Again, you can't read the laws if you aren't provided the law book to read. Is it that hard to figure out this concept? A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2886	Posted - 2016.10.19 05:37:47 - [40] - Quote Claudia Osyn wrote: Matar Ronin wrote: Makoto Priano wrote: Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Well yes I can admit that possibility, will you? Priano's public relation skills are flawless, she would never behave in such a manner. Besides, what would she rant about? That's quite ignorant point of view. Priano has already displayed herself to whole IGS as a liar, as dishonorable person and as a coward, who couldn't answer for her words. Here is the reference to refresh the memory: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560 Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 561	Posted - 2016.10.19 06:09:14 - [41] - Quote Frankly, I'm not responsible for your inability to use galnets. Next thing you'll tell me is that you don't know how many days a year on Athra is or that Scope News come out once a couple of weeks instead of each hour. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1681	Posted - 2016.10.19 06:38:57 - [42] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Frankly, I'm not responsible for your inability to use galnets. Next thing you'll tell me is that you don't know how many days a year on Athra is or that Scope News come out once a couple of weeks instead of each hour. Search for Directive Alpha Gamma 12 or any of the CONCORD rulings on the Galnet and tell me if you found anything. (You just found this thread and something else but nothing that really explains the rulings) A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 562	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:04:49 - [43] - Quote You are doing something wrong then, Elmund. Do you really expect an interstellar law our society relies on to be kept private from everyone? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 932	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:10:09 - [44] - Quote 1: Diana-chan, shut up, please. 2: Mr. Victorian: If we don't know the laws CONCORD is governed by, we can't complain when they change the rules in secret, now can we? So yes. I expect them to keep as much to themselves as possible. I certainly haven't read any complete and unredacted texts. If you have, then post them here and end this, proving everyone else the fool. Though, I have to say, you are the fool. If I had made that same bit to Arrendis, she would have calculated how much time it would take for her to write up the Directive from whole cloth (probably five or six hours), and realized that the ISK to hour ratio for that was amazing and posted her creation here. And since I didn't know any better, I can't say it's not the right one, can I? You missed on an easy billion ISK. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1683	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:20:20 - [45] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: You are doing something wrong then, Elmund. Do you really expect an interstellar law our society relies on to be kept private from everyone? Yes, I do. Now shut up, run a search yourself and come back and tell us what you find instead of procrastinating over it so that you will never have to feel the cognitive dissonance of being wrong. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 562	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:24:29 - [46] - Quote I find it amusing how you keep trying to provoke and insult me, Alizabeth. Certainly doesn't help with your reputation. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 932	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:37:10 - [47] - Quote Yes, I consider you foolish for not making an easy billion just by going to whatever secret room you have with the documents and producing them. Shocking, I know. Also, I think that my reputation as a brash, bold, and decisive battlefield commander is not in any danger. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 565	Posted - 2016.10.19 07:59:34 - [48] - Quote Why would I go and forge law documentation? Is the fraud like this a thing that you just casually do? I mean, scamming? My oh my, all that talk about honor and stuff. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1684	Posted - 2016.10.19 08:36:46 - [49] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Why would I go and forge law documentation? Is the fraud like this a thing that you just casually do? I mean, scamming? My oh my, all that talk about honor and stuff. Oi! No deflection! Prove that you can actually find CONCORD rulings on the Galnet, why don't you? A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Jaret Victorian Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 566	Posted - 2016.10.19 10:34:23 - [50] - Quote Are you kidding me, Elmund? Are you seriously saying that laws don't exist? This is a ridiculous argument. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1684	Posted - 2016.10.19 10:59:51 - [51] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Are you kidding me, Elmund? Are you seriously saying that laws don't exist? This is a ridiculous argument. I am not saying it doesn't exist, I am saying it is not publicly viewable! You can't tell people to read what isn't available anywhere public to be read! And considering CONCORD's penchant for keeping things from the general capsuleer public, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept all their laws tucked away somewhere only accessible by interstellar lawyers and lawmakers. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8767	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:16:33 - [52] - Quote Pilots, I would argue that the issue here is a limited interpretation of 'available.' Certainly, we have extremely limited access via the Neocom, but then I also can't reliably pull up planet-side tabloids while in the pod, nor can I watch or listen to much media via the pod interface except without simulating an external galnet link. This is just one of those strange limitations created by our pod interface. That said, surely, there are confidential sections of the Yulai Conventions, likely governing sharing of state secrets with CONCORD or provisions for traveling to Jove space or such things, but there are also painfully dry sections on maritime transport, tariffs and the like which are available to lawyers who have to try such cases in front of tribunals. Pillorying someone because they can't produce the full text of the Convention on a whim would be like pillorying an Imperial priest because he can't produce the full text of the Scriptures on a whim. Our systems simply aren't really set up to handle it. May as well harangue Mr. Egivand for being unable to produce the Republic constitution, or me for not having the latest minutes of a public CEP panel on market stabilization measures in Lonetrek. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 933	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:28:03 - [53] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Why would I go and forge law documentation? Is the fraud like this a thing that you just casually do? I mean, scamming? My oh my, all that talk about honor and stuff. But you don't have to forge anything? You said you had the text. And Priano-haani, I agree. However, no one else claimed to have the text other than your pilot. Who then insinuated everyone else was deaf, dumb, and blind for not being able to get to it. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8767	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:31:07 - [54] - Quote And, as usual, Arrendis was profligate with insults and moral superiority over it. Noone here is without fault. Besides, who among us actually reads the damned thing? That's why I have lawyers on retainer: to avoid the migraine. Let's just let it lie. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 933	Posted - 2016.10.19 15:48:39 - [55] - Quote Humility is an Amarrian virtue, not really a Sebiestor one. Despite the Empire's best attempts, I am sure. I'm not a saint, either. As far as leaving the dullness to lawyers, hear, hear. Every second I would be pouring over some dry, dull legalese is a second I could be killing Drifters. They're not going to genocide themselves, you know. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Elanion 43	Posted - 2016.10.19 16:31:34 - [56] - Quote Alizabeth Vea wrote: Humility is an Amarrian virtue... Huh. Never seen that before. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. I'll keep an eye out for it. RIP YC111-115 GÇó "The project discarded, its subjects forgotten... thence must the burden be shouldered."
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2541	Posted - 2016.10.19 16:36:44 - [57] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Why would I go and forge law documentation? Is the fraud like this a thing that you just casually do? I mean, scamming? My oh my, all that talk about honor and stuff. If it's publicly available, why would you need to forge it?
Pieter Tuulinen Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF 6559	Posted - 2016.10.19 16:36:58 - [58] - Quote Elanion wrote: Alizabeth Vea wrote: Humility is an Amarrian virtue... Huh. Never seen that before. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. I'll keep an eye out for it. Virtues are generally notable in their rarity. For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2541	Posted - 2016.10.19 16:59:22 - [59] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: And, as usual, Arrendis was profligate with insults and moral superiority over it. Noone here is without fault. Besides, who among us actually reads the damned thing? That's why I have lawyers on retainer: to avoid the migraine. Let's just let it lie. Yes, I responded to insults with insults. Amazing, isn't it? And here you are, offering your own moral superiority to cover for your pilot's snide and insulting manner before any insults were offered to him. So you're right, and I apologize most profusely for reacting. As for who reads the damned thing? None of us, because we can't. If we could? I would. I know a lot of other people who would, too. Some of them are lawyers. Others are just people who like to know what things to avoid doing so they don't get their crews blown up over a technicality. So let's recap: I make a statement that's true. My statement included no insults, did not mention Jaret in any way. Jaret chimes in with unprovoked insults and makes a claim he can't back up. I call him out on it, matching his snide tone. You decide I'm the one being 'profilgate with insults' when the only thing insulting I've said was 'so amazingly superior', as opposed to calling him 'lazy' and being derisive about his intelligence. Do you see how this fits the pattern of you deciding me asking you for help was an opportunity to twist literally everything I said around so you could be aggrieved and play the victim? Do you see how this sort of behavior only serves to call into question your trustworthiness, and suggest that Diana might actually be right about you? Tell you what: you're back to caracals and scythes, by your own decision. You have no plans to use my basilisks. How about you give them back to Alizabeth, who will, as a demonstration that you're not what Kim paints you as? After all, honor's a Caldari virtue, right? I bought and fitted those ships to be used against Drifters, and they went to you with that intent. You've decided not to use them. So honor the intent, and give them back to someone who will. I'll even send you the isk to SRP 3 logi, once you do.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin Noticed. 2003	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:26:45 - [60] - Quote All I need to know is that the very same extralegal and extraterritorial status CONCORD grants through its pilot licenses also in effect makes an owner of that said license an outlaw by default. As outlaws and thus not granted the protections of the law we cannot sue each other, are not liable for any actions we might undertake, and CONCORD can arbitrarily destroy our vessels or seize our assets without things like warrants or due process. As such I fail to see any need to know the CONCORD provisos by heart when the vast majority of them don't apply to us anyway.
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 936	Posted - 2016.10.19 17:38:38 - [61] - Quote Let's not assume that Mr. Victorian speaks for ARC or IKAME. He's just one pilot posting. Whatever insult given is his own. As for the rest: it's too early for me to even get into it. I will say that it's generally a bad idea to insult people with super fleets. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments 330	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:02:42 - [62] - Quote Woah there slinging around that super fleet left and right, that's just not classy.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8770	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:11:29 - [63] - Quote Arrendis; you are mistaken. We are continuing to use the Caracals and Scythes as a mainline with core pilots in Basilisks, as we have since the development of the doctrine. I wonder where you got the wrong impression? Maker, for that matter, not even Alizabeth will be using the Basilisks shortly, given that she's already shifted to a new doctrine. So-- you're provably wrong twice over, and have used Kim's posting, of all things, as a goad. So I say again. Let's let this lie. There are more important matters than your forumwarrioring for pretend Galnet points. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2541	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:29:14 - [64] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Arrendis; you are mistaken. We are continuing to use the Caracals and Scythes as a mainline with core pilots in Basilisks, as we have since the development of the doctrine. I wonder where you got the wrong impression? From the doctrine fits in your own channel, which lists only Caracals, Bellicoses, and Scythes. You know, since I'm still in the ops channel, unlike all of the other people you forcibly excluded while telling me you hadn't.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8770	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:33:04 - [65] - Quote Arrendis, please consult with Alizabeth before you continue on this path. I again advise you to let this lie. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Claudia Osyn Non-Hostile Target 2127	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:38:02 - [66] - Quote I wanna be in the OPs channel too... A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Deitra Vess Non-Hostile Target 1444	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:43:25 - [67] - Quote I told you where to find it.......
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2541	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:46:17 - [68] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Arrendis, please consult with Alizabeth before you continue on this path. I already have. I was simply answering your question. If you're using the ships, then by all means, please, continue to do so.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8771	Posted - 2016.10.19 19:49:38 - [69] - Quote With material misrepresentations of fact. But we're done with this, so let's let it lie. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 936	Posted - 2016.10.19 20:02:57 - [70] - Quote Arrendis, kirjuun, we've been through a lot together. So, please, when I ask you to let this go, do it? They do still use Basilisks. I know because I consulted with Priano-haani after they lost one: Darkezero's--who also flies with SERAPH. (More to the point, I offered to sell them SERAPH's Basilisk inventory when we changed doctrines.) Yes, I know it's a messy situation, but ARC and SERAPH are both fighting the same war. Sometimes with the same pilots. More to the point, the Basilisk was never open to all of ARC's pilots, only specific people within the Coord Team. That's just part of running public fleets. When a ship is mission critical, make sure the pilots in there are good. You don't let just any Goon in an anchor position, do you? Mr. Victorian is a moron too stupid to understand who he is insulting half the time. That's as factual and blunt as I can get. He managed to earn the ire of Elise Randolph and now you (and more than a bit of mine, to be fair). But can you really blame Priano-haani for coming to the aid of her pilot? That's a very Goony thing to do. Help your people first; worry about right and wrong later. And, unless I've misread this, Mr. Victorian is not speaking for anyone but himself really. Write him off as an idiot and move on. Please don't drag ARC into this. In a way, me leaving has worked out for the better. I can do what I want now with regards to ships, tactics, and doctrine with no one in a position to hold me back. My time with ARC worked out well for both myself and ARC. I got the skills, knowledge, and, most importantly, confidence to step out on my own. They got a working lossless doctrine and a friend that works with them on tactics. There's been a lot of back channel communication between Priano-haani and myself that hasn't been public until now. It's actually much better for me (probably Makoto) when we talk to each other as equals--both leaders of our own initiatives. Since SERAPH has not really been announced publicly, some things were left unsaid. Hopefully that will be corrected in the next few days. To sum it up: ARC is good people that still use Basilisks. Priano-haani looks out for her people. Mr. Victorian is an idiot that needs to stop insulting people that can organize super fleets, or, worse in this case, Hole Squad. Arrendis is still my best friend. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Lunarisse Aspenstar Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 985	Posted - 2016.10.19 20:30:26 - [71] - Quote Jaret Victorian wrote: Frankly, I'm not responsible for your inability to use galnets. Next thing you'll tell me is that you don't know how many days a year on Athra is or that Scope News come out once a couple of weeks instead of each hour. 25.8 days on Athra, Amarr III http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Amarr/III
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2542	Posted - 2016.10.19 20:39:33 - [72] - Quote Ashlar Vellum wrote: Woah there slinging around that super fleet left and right, that's just not classy. Alizabeth Vea wrote: Mr. Victorian is an idiot that needs to stop insulting people that can organize super fleets, or, worse in this case, Hole Squad. I'd just like to point out here, since this is now repeatedly coming up, that at no point have I threatened anyone involved in this discussion with our supers, caps, or Hole Squad. I did give Makoto a cautionary heads-up that Hole Squad had had reason to not hunt them, and those reasons no longer applied with Alizabeth's departure, but I also at least attempted to make it clear that I had absolutely no intentions of trying to convince Dod, Corb, or anyone else that they should do so. It was intended as 'hey, just be aware of this', not any kind of threat. That said, Makoto, I answered your question. Now I'm answerined Alizabeth's. Don't feel like you have to respond. Quote: But can you really blame Priano-haani for coming to the aid of her pilot? No. I don't blame her at all for coming to the aid of her pilot. That doesn't mean I'm going to just sit there and take it when she comes in saying 'we all should just calm down and relax' and then immediately follows up with saying that I've been the one who 'was profligate with insults' when I hadn't actually insulted her pilot, but he'd sure as feck insulted me. You called him foolish. Elmund said he was procrastinating and suffering from cognitive dissonance. What did I say to insult him? That he was 'amazingly superior'? But I'm the one who was 'recklessly extravagant or wasteful' with the insults? I don't blame her for coming to the aid of her pilot. But I most certainly reserve the right to blame her for lying about me because it's a lot easier to 'grr goons' than address that her pilot's being demonstrably proven wrong by at least two other people she can't just whip up public sentiment against for the high crime of their alliance affiliations. And even at that point, if she's using those basilisks, then I'm more than happy to see them used. And when they get blown up, I'll even honor my commitment to replace the bloody things, because I said I would. As far as I'm concerned, the matter's settled. That doesn't mean that if someone asks me a damned question, I'm not going to answer it for fear of 'oh no, you're talking about the incident!!', though. Anyone who expects that should just cancel their clone contracts and shoot themselves in the head. So, you asked. I answered. If you want to let this lie, stop asking the freaking questions.
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 938	Posted - 2016.10.19 20:44:20 - [73] - Quote It is my fault with regards to the super fleet. It was more of an illustration about the power null blocs have. Pilots like Arrendis and Elise Randolph are generally pilots one should go out of their way to avoid insulting. Arrendis has made no threats. So, I apologize if I sounded like I was making one for her. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Claudia Osyn Non-Hostile Target 2128	Posted - 2016.10.19 20:46:44 - [74] - Quote What questions? A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2542	Posted - 2016.10.19 21:17:37 - [75] - Quote Claudia Osyn wrote: What questions? The ones I quoted.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1688	Posted - 2016.10.20 02:59:47 - [76] - Quote I am not going to ask for any forgiveness or excuse my behaviour. I absolutely despise it when someone makes a claim they can't back up. I also have many other things that I absolutely despise. Do any of these and I am liable to fly off the handle. This is my biggest beef with Jaret. He made a claim he can't back up, deflects or misdirects when challenged to back up said claim and won't stop doing it. Either apologise or shut up. I accept 'shutting up' as an acknowledgement of being wrong because I am well aware that some people are just too damned prideful to ever say 'Oh, I made a mistake, my bad.' The last part is directed to some people. You know who you are. Or you don't because you are a blind hypocritical f--kwit. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 939	Posted - 2016.10.20 05:36:32 - [77] - Quote I think that we all need to stop taking the IGS so seriously. The IGS is for posting genocidal songs, insulting poems, press releases (that might actually be serious), pseudoposturing, Diana Kim to explain that this reason is why the Federation should be destroyed, nitpicks, insults, gossip and serial commas. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1713	Posted - 2016.10.20 05:38:47 - [78] - Quote Never forgive, never forget. With the GrudgeMaster3000, the new personal grudge management assistant, from Kaalakiota ! Keep track of all the insults, slights, affronts, and beefs, that you have with everyone and anyone, arranged in an easy-to-read format ! With the GrudgeMaster3000, you too can bear grudges like a champion. GrudgeMaster3000, coming soon to an electronics outlet near you. Not for sale in the Federation. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 939	Posted - 2016.10.20 05:51:54 - [79] - Quote I don't know if the comma after beefs is supposed to be intentional and therefore funny, or not. I am going to assume it was and chuckle. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1690	Posted - 2016.10.20 06:23:28 - [80] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: Never forgive, never forget. With the GrudgeMaster3000, the new personal grudge management assistant, from Kaalakiota ! Keep track of all the insults, slights, affronts, and beefs, that you have with everyone and anyone, arranged in an easy-to-read format ! With the GrudgeMaster3000, you too can bear grudges like a champion. GrudgeMaster3000, coming soon to an electronics outlet near you. Not for sale in the Federation. I order 20. I happen to be in Jita right now. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin Noticed. 2005	Posted - 2016.10.20 08:07:20 - [81] - Quote Serial commas; I've already advanced into the realm of serial semicolons; When posting on the IGS.
Gwen Ikiryo Alexylva Paradox 659	Posted - 2016.10.20 11:59:08 - [82] - Quote Hey, there's no more sophisticated a punctuation mark than the semicolon; It can make even the most baseless statements appear to segue elegantly into an intellectual conclusion. I should know - I use it all the time. (Also hyphens - You can't go wrong with a hyphen.)
Utari Onzo Pentag Blade Curatores Veritatis Alliance 1432	Posted - 2016.10.20 12:13:49 - [83] - Quote Well the last few pages of this thread was a heap of ***. Anyways, on the topic of the Sisters I'd prefer they leave the power balancing and cloak and dagger games to CONCORD. Not because I trust them, but because I'm a little more familiar with them then the Sisters (devil you know and all that) so I'd support the OP's petition on that principle. As for Jaret, it's a habit of his to rail against the infamous Capsuleers among us. Saying Jaret likes to throw petty insults at warlord Capsuleers without backing said words on the field of battle is like calling water wet. I believe it's brought IKAME to uncomfortable positions on more then one occassion, but to her credit Ms Priano defends her own. Finally we have commas and semicolons. Personally I prefer words, I'm sure my grammatical abilities, or lack there of, have had many a Gramma-Provist gouging their eyes out. I'm almost proud of that. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"*
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2888	Posted - 2016.10.20 13:19:27 - [84] - Quote Adding my couple of coins, on one hand I'd like to praise Mr. Victorian for his ability to actually appear and bear responsibility for his words in person. But on the other hand, I feel deep frustration seeing that he was stepping on same rakes again. I can't estimate his professionalism in his area and how valuable worker it is, but stepping on the same rakes again and again is not something a wise man would do. Mr. Victorian. Stop and look back before continuing, you are walking on a narrow ledge. One wrong step and you'll fall down... on Priano's head. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Persephone Alleile Nocx Initiative Moist. 180	Posted - 2016.10.20 15:47:09 - [85] - Quote Utari Onzo wrote: Anyways, on the topic of the Sisters I'd prefer they leave the power balancing and cloak and dagger games to CONCORD. Not because I trust them, but because I'm a little more familiar with them then the Sisters (devil you know and all that) so I'd support the OP's petition on that principle. I'm personally more likely to put my faith in the Sisters than CONCORD, but perhaps that is because I have the opposite perspective. I've witnessed first hand the good work of the Servant Sisters. Food Relief convoys were a common sight in the Intaki colonies while I was growing up and like many on my home world I attended a school run by the SOE. Do they have an agenda? Well obviously, who in the cluster doesn't? That said, I have faith that as long as they are operating in line with the mandates they have set for themselves then whatever they are doing is in the best interest of the inhabitants of New Eden. CONCORD on the other hand seem to be having an increasingly difficult time maintaining the balance of power. They failed to keep the peace between the "Big Four," though they were able to keep the fighting out of high security space, and they are still reeling from the blow they received 8 years ago in the Elder War. Their grip on the cluster's governments is slipping and with these new developments it seems as though their control over capsuleers is weakening as well. As for information sharing with the Society, I would imagine as members of the Inner Circle they were present at the AG12 assembly which affirmed the legality of the new cloning tech, so I would further extrapolate that they have access to technical specification of this new technology.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1715	Posted - 2016.10.20 16:48:52 - [86] - Quote Persephone Alleile wrote: I've witnessed first hand the good work of the Servant Sisters. Food Relief convoys were a common sight in the Intaki colonies while I was growing up and like many on my home world I attended a school run by the SOE. Do they have an agenda? Well obviously, who in the cluster doesn't? That said, I have faith that as long as they are operating in line with the mandates they have set for themselves then whatever they are doing is in the best interest of the inhabitants of New Eden. You are aware that Food Relief is quite political in its scheduling of aid convoys, delaying shipments to one side in a conflict, so that the other side can make territorial gains, that kind of thing, right ? And, well, you see.... about the SOE agenda.... They believe that God lives on the other side of the "EVE Gate", and that by careful study of the Gate, they can re-activate it, allowing God into New Eden, which they think will bring about a new age of peace and harmony amongst the people of New Eden. But see.... that's what in Amarr theology, is called The End Times. When God arrives to Judge everyone and everything, and destroying all the Sinners and the Wicked. The Righteous would be Saved, of course. So, while there might be a "age of peace and harmony", then... only a handful of people are going to experience that peace and harmony. Everyone else, is going to be Judged. Including the Sisters. I'm fairly sure a great number of other people would be rather annoyed at this kind of thing happening, the End Times are somewhat of an inconvenience to everyone. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2547	Posted - 2016.10.20 17:12:22 - [87] - Quote So? Not to be indelicate or disrespectful, but by and large, the people who believe in God tend (tend) to view themselves as among 'the righteous'. If they don't, they're usually striving for it. The rest of us, the people who don't believe in God... why would we care what the Amarr say will happen upon the arrival of the non-existent being the Sisters think lives on the other side of the EVE Gate arrives? We don't believe it exists. If it doesn't exist, it doesn't matter how hard the Sisters work to get it to show up, it won't show up, and it can't end all of existence... ... because it doesn't exist. Which means there are no 'End Times' to be inconvenienced by. So why should we care? You might as well issue dire warnings about how the Sisters plan is to study hard vacuum so they can figure out which way they need to stand so they can survive naked in the depths of space. It's not going to happen. So let them stare at the damned thing. Doesn't matter.
Persephone Alleile Nocx Initiative Moist. 182	Posted - 2016.10.20 17:26:48 - [88] - Quote It is difficult for me to come to grips with the concept of the End Times. the Ida teaches us that there are no endings, only cycles within cycles. One lives and dies many times until the soul has achieved perfection and "graduates" from the school of life, achieving liberation from the cycle of life and death. This cycle of death and rebirth in the individual is reflected in the larger cycles of societies, civilizations and even humanity as a whole. The EVE Gate certainly is a key to our past and thus our future; it is the oldest thing in the archeological record, predating all known civilizations. It may very well have been the catalyst that set in motion the current cycle of our existence as the Sisters believe and therefore it may also be what brings this cycle to an end. I can see how this idea could be disconcerting, but to me and end is simply a new beginning and when the time is right the current chapter in the story of humanity will end and another will begin. As the old Intaki saying goes, never have we not existed, nor will we ever cease to exist.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1715	Posted - 2016.10.20 18:16:20 - [89] - Quote Arrendis wrote: So? Well, even if you disregard the theological aspects of what might happen should the SOE activate the Gate, there is one thing you should keep in mind. The Gate is a Door. And what happens if you open a door ? Spiders. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Jjaro Durandal University of Caille Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2016.10.20 18:29:06 - [90] - Quote So the SOE gave mil-spec cloning tech to the Four. While doing so they conveniently 'forgot' to tell each; the others were getting it. Regrettably this led to CONCORD not being informed, because OPSEC. Now rustled, CONCORD makes them spill the beans. The SOE advance their goals of opening the EVE Gate. I feel I'm missing something.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8777	Posted - 2016.10.20 19:30:41 - [91] - Quote Hello, pilots! My, what a day. IGÇÖm almost glad those meetings kept me away from the Summit. There will be a lot to address, so bear with me. On Jaret; please, pilots. YouGÇÖll notice Jaret hasnGÇÖt commented on this thread in over a day; please do show some restraint in baiting him and insulting him. We all know he is overly combative; he and I have discussed this before, and IGÇÖve requested that he demonstrate some restraint. As for the matter at hand, IGÇÖve stated my position, and have started a separate thread for a more abstract, philosophical discussion of media, documents, and legal documents here. Ultimately, as for Jaret, thereGÇÖs a reason he isnGÇÖt a diplomatic contact. His virtue, spiritedness and dedication, often becomes the vice of combativeness, doubly so when heGÇÖs baited by such talented forumwarriors as weGÇÖve seen in this thread. WeGÇÖre working on it; I appreciate your forbearance as we attempt to temper his temper. On the purges that Arrendis alluded to; this is inaccurate, and IGÇÖm saddened that AlizabethGÇÖs best friend would get such a strange conception about ARCGÇÖs practices. To date, we have banned only a handful of pilots. To list them; Dame Death, which is self-explanatory; Anyanka Funk, which is also self-explanatory; one pilot who advocated for ARC actively defrauding its backers, and also attempted to defraud ARC itself; one pilot who repeatedly refused fleet commander instructions; one pilot who was reportedly funding war declarations against SFRIM and Sanxing, and had harassed a number of pilots associated with those organizations; shell corporations associated with PIRAT, an Amarr-centered highsec combat group. YouGÇÖll notice that not even Diana Kim is banned from ARC operations, and would be welcome to fly with us if she was willing to accept FC instructions. This constitutes a nearly complete list of our bans. On threats; Alizabeth, youGÇÖre right when you say that Arrendis has not explicitly threatened ARC. However, I think you understandably have a blindspot for your best friend that has allowed you to miss the implicit threat. Our operations, whether as the original expeditionary group in June of YC117, or our latest fleets these last weeks and months, have never actually come under threat in the Drifter systems. In sixteen months, not once has anyone actually hunted us down. Certainly, that will change some day. However, when a Goon evemails me saying what effectively reads as, GÇ£You know, you have an awfully flammable fleet. ItGÇÖd be a shame if it caught fire. I happen to know people with torches. ItGÇÖd be a shame if they came for your fleet. IGÇÖm not threatening, though,GÇ¥ there is an implicit threat. I know sheGÇÖs your best friend, so youGÇÖre willing to overlook it, but letGÇÖs be perfectly honest. This is the exact definition of racketeering. Throw a cheesy accent on it, and you have the start of a police procedural. On one hand, IGÇÖm not terribly concerned. Ships are safe in harbor, but that is not their purpose. WeGÇÖre fighting and flying in Drifter space; weGÇÖve always assumed all ships might be lost. We expect it, even. On the other hand, it becomes difficult to build trust when your best friend glibly implies that we may just end up on fire at a whim if weGÇÖre not compliant. You understand my difficulty, IGÇÖm sure. ItGÇÖs entirely possible IGÇÖm over-reading the threat, but you and I both know that Goons are not known for being pacifistic. As to your post, Alizabeth; thank you for your acknowledgement that your time with ARC was foundational for SERAPH. I remain glad to hear that, and am glad that many of our core pilots are also flying on your venture. My only concern at present is that your aggressive operations tempo may result in pilot burn-out, but weGÇÖll deal with that in due course. Whatever the case, as you say, we are fighting the same war, and we are stronger when we cooperate. As to the original topic of this thread, I think itGÇÖs important to clarify on the Sisters. We use the term GÇÿSistersGÇÖ to refer to the organization as a whole. Surely, there are laudable duties performed by the Sisters, whether Food Relief or the Sisters of EVE core organization; at the same time, the Sanctuary corporation appears to be something wholly different, and I worry that by giving the Sisters as a whole a pass, we are giving the Sanctuary a pass. IGÇÖm not worried in the slightest about the EVE Gate, but IGÇÖd say itGÇÖs clear that Sanctuary ventures elsewhere are very concerning. This novel cloning technologyGÇª? I get the impression it is likely a Sanctuary project. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Persephone Alleile Nocx Initiative Moist. 182	Posted - 2016.10.20 19:58:02 - [92] - Quote Thank you for your clarification regarding the Sisters. You make a good point about the Sanctuary; they are certainly in possession of valuable data on the Drifters gathered through their operations in the Drifter hive systems and Project Discovery. Perhaps those led directly to this new tech. Transparency would certainly be appreciated regarding their findings, but transparency in general often seems to be lacking in New Eden.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8779	Posted - 2016.10.20 19:58:53 - [93] - Quote Agreed that transparency is a rarity, and something we are unlikely to see. Nonetheless, asking for more information can't hurt, can it? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 939	Posted - 2016.10.20 20:41:14 - [94] - Quote For the record, no one speaks for SERAPH except myself. Arrendis is a GSF director and pilot 168 hours of the week, even when flying with me. It would be wrong for me to claim that the six hours she flies on my ops some how make her mine. I didn't really want to get involved, but felt I had to given the question of the Basilisks. Normally, I would say to contact Corps Diplomatique if there's an issue with Arrendis, but, I think in this case, it would be a bad idea. I just know that I cannot really speak for her, should not speak for her, and that she is more than capable of speaking for herself. The rest of it doesn't need to be hashed out here. Priano-haani you can mail me or com me with anything further. This is still the IGS and nothing to take seriously. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8782	Posted - 2016.10.20 20:53:03 - [95] - Quote Certainly understood and agreed, Alizabeth. It all seemed a bit unusual, a bit excessive. Still, I do find it odd that you so thoroughly disavow your best friend's actions. Ah well. That's neither here nor there. More important is that we're both fighting the same war, against the same enemy. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2548	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:18:23 - [96] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: The Gate is a Door. Or, you know, it's a gate. Quote: And what happens if you open a door ? You throw people out of it into space, and slam it shut again on them. More importantly: knowing how to open the gate might help with how to lock it.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8782	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:19:37 - [97] - Quote Locks are useful! I'll admit to wondering if these sequences are, well, keys. Like they say they are. Which means we're opening a door for the Drifters. Might not be ideal. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2548	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:24:11 - [98] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: On threats; Alizabeth, youGÇÖre right when you say that Arrendis has not explicitly threatened ARC. However, I think you understandably have a blindspot for your best friend that has allowed you to miss the implicit threat. Our operations, whether as the original expeditionary group in June of YC117, or our latest fleets these last weeks and months, have never actually come under threat in the Drifter systems. In sixteen months, not once has anyone actually hunted us down. Certainly, that will change some day. However, when a Goon evemails me saying what effectively reads as, GÇ£You know, you have an awfully flammable fleet. ItGÇÖd be a shame if it caught fire. I happen to know people with torches. ItGÇÖd be a shame if they came for your fleet. IGÇÖm not threatening, though,GÇ¥ there is an implicit threat. I know sheGÇÖs your best friend, so youGÇÖre willing to overlook it, but letGÇÖs be perfectly honest. This is the exact definition of racketeering. Throw a cheesy accent on it, and you have the start of a police procedural. So let me see if I understand this. I know Hole Squad is out there, and they like hunting shiny ships. I also know Alizabeth's presence in a fleet is enough for Dod to tell his people to hold fire. Telling you this is a threat. So if I know about a potential danger from other members of my organization, you'd prefer not to be warned about them? Is that what you're saying? And you feel this is 'letting it lie'?
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8782	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:33:19 - [99] - Quote Arrendis, I appreciate your concern. Please understand that you are part of an organization that is not known for its magnanimity. Please also know that I felt there were several material misrepresentations that I had to address. We've both said our respective parts. Is this not enough? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2548	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:35:32 - [100] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Certainly understood and agreed, Alizabeth. It all seemed a bit unusual, a bit excessive. Still, I do find it odd that you so thoroughly disavow your best friend's actions. Ah well. That's neither here nor there. But you certainly felt the need to try to get a dig in, didn't you? Letting it lie, indeed. For the record, Alizabeth saying that she isn't responsible for my actions isn't 'disavowal'. It's a statement of fact. She's no more responsible for my actions than she is for yours. If she acknowledges that you're a big girl who can make her own decisions, is she disavowing you, too?
Jason Galente Hole Riders Spaceship Samurai 821	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:36:02 - [101] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: Claudia Osyn wrote: Matar Ronin wrote: Makoto Priano wrote: Sir, you speak a lot about angry silly rants. I worry that you might be projecting. Well yes I can admit that possibility, will you? Priano's public relation skills are flawless, she would never behave in such a manner. Besides, what would she rant about? That's quite ignorant point of view. Priano has already displayed herself to whole IGS as a liar, as dishonorable person and as a coward, who couldn't answer for her words. Here is the reference to refresh the memory: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560 I clicked on this thread because I knew, just knew, that this would be here. You have done this on nearly every thread Makoto Priano has posted since I came back from retirement in early April, and apparently, long before then as well. I am now calling on the DED's Aux Aliette to put a stop to this as harassment in violation of the following DED regulations of the Intergalactic Summit. If my comments deserved moderation, this pattern does as well. 2. Be respectful toward others at all times. 3. Ranting is prohibited. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. 5. Trolling is prohibited. 13. Spamming is prohibited. You may find these and other rules here I encourage others to help put an end to this obnoxious pattern of behavior as well by referring the chain of incidents to Aux Aliette. 2 years is quite long enough to routinely harass the same individual saying the same thing every time on threads that have nothing to do with you. Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended. *At any cost*
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2548	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:36:31 - [102] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: We've both said our respective parts. Is this not enough? Not if your part keeps including twisting other peoples' words to try to make them look bad.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8783	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:38:23 - [103] - Quote Arrendis, we have different perceptions of the situation. That's a normal and natural thing. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2548	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:42:22 - [104] - Quote Arrendis wrote: If she acknowledges that you're a big girl who can make her own decisions, is she disavowing you, too? Answer the question. Is she disavowing you, or is your characterization of her statement about me 'misreprestentation'?
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8783	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:49:42 - [105] - Quote Arrendis, Alizabeth very specifically addressed you as a best friend, and included it in her TL;DR, which makes it particularly noteworthy. She then completely disavowed any influence on you despite your being her best friend, when addressing the matter of your implied threats. That struck me as odd. Now, I of course don't say she's disavowing you; she explicitly doesn't do that. Nor does she say you don't make your own decisions. However, there is a gray area somewhere between 'I have no influence whatsoever' or 'I have absolute influence,' and your being Alizabeth's best friend puts that somewhere other than 'no influence whatsoever.' At this point, I think we're making mountains of molehills. After all, if you're just passing along words, then your verbal barbs are just those, and there's no threat. Still, I can't help but think you want things to escalate. Why can't we just let things lie? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2548	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:05:21 - [106] - Quote Makoto Priano wrote: Certainly understood and agreed, Alizabeth. It all seemed a bit unusual, a bit excessive. Still, I do find it odd that you so thoroughly disavow your best friend's actions. Makoto Priano wrote: Now, I of course don't say she's disavowing you; Makoto Priano wrote: Arrendis, Alizabeth very specifically addressed you as a best friend, and included it in her TL;DR, which makes it particularly noteworthy. She then completely disavowed any influence on you despite your being her best friend, when addressing the matter of your implied threats. That struck me as odd. Did she? Did she claim she had no influence on me? Alizabeth Vea wrote: I just know that I cannot really speak for her, should not speak for her, and that she is more than capable of speaking for herself. That doesn't look like 'I have no influence whatsoever.' Makoto Priano wrote: At this point, I think we're making mountains of molehills. At this point, I'm pointing out your repeated 'misrepresentations' and holding you to account for them. Like how you claim that of course it's reasonable for you to assume I'm threatening you because I'm a Goon, even though I'd be threatening to blow up my own damned ships. And I pointed that out in private. Repeatedly. Why would I blow up my own damned ships? I've supported your efforts. I've put my money on the table for you. I've even reaffirmed in this thread that I will continue to support your efforts. Would you please tell me why I would threaten to burn my own money? You want to just let it lie, maybe you shouldn't have continued trying to take cheap shots at me and mine.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8785	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:14:03 - [107] - Quote You're missing the distinction, Arrendis. There's disavowing a person, or disavowing their actions. She avowed you as a person by saying that you are a best friend; she disavowed your actions by highlighting that you are a Goon director first and foremost, even when on her fleets, which seemed curious coming so soon after being called a best friend. In any case, you repeat that these are misrepresentations, but we had eight months of operations before Alizabeth flew with us with absolutely no threat. If we were being hunted before, it was clearly no matter; what changed after, then, that made this a credible threat? We differ in our belief that you seemed to be engaging in something like racketeering. But, again, I'm perfectly willing to be mistaken, and if it's opinion rather than fact it shouldn't be material to you. When have Goons cared about the opinions of others, or cared about people 'making them look bad'? Am I simply not allowed to have a different opinion than you? Arrendis, seriously. This is getting tiresome. We're not going to get anywhere. Let's just let this lie. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2548	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:23:18 - [108] - Quote This isn't about making me look bad. You can't make me look bad, Makoto. As you keep trying to rub my nose in: I'm a Goon. More, I'm proud of it. I'm already the evilest thing in New Eden, according to everyone who gives a damn what you think. This is about you saying things you know to be false. Why would I 'threaten' to burn my own money, when it would cost you nothing, Makoto? Why would I do that? You keep claiming it's some kind of racketeering scheme, but what exactly was I trying to extort out of you? I was asking for your help in keeping the crap between Ali and your people from blowing up. 'Hey, help me try to get this under control or I swear to God I'll blow up my own stuff'? Really? That's what you're going to claim I was saying? How stupid would someone have to be to even think that makes sense? I'm really sorry if you're finding it tiresome when someone is calling you out on your nonsense. You want to let it lie, stop lying.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8785	Posted - 2016.10.20 22:32:53 - [109] - Quote It's nonsense to find implied threat when a Goon mentions that other Goons may be gunning for you, and to watch out and keep quiet? Arrendis, seriously. You're not doing any of us any favors by pushing this. And you're pretty obviously wrong; I'm saying exactly what I believe to be the case, which is that you aren't a passive party, an observer who just kindly passed on words of warning. The donations were appreciated and have seen use, both in SERAPH's operations and ARC's; but to you, they're surely a sunk cost at this point. They remain appreciated, but why would they govern your actions? ISK is easy, after all, and the ships are out of your hands. But threats, if they influence action, are still useful. And if you're still aiming to keep this situation from blowing up, why are you still engaging in this? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8786	Posted - 2016.10.20 23:07:50 - [110] - Quote Alright. I think we're going in circles here. We've made our respective points; we disagree; we're not going to convince each other. Let's just both step back and call this matter, if not settled, at least unproductive to continue on. So. Shall we step back, both of us? Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 941	Posted - 2016.10.20 23:57:02 - [111] - Quote I hope this whole thing can end here. Makoto, Arrendis, please stop, both of you. There's nothing more to be gained from any of this. Can we just kill Drifters? That's all I really want to do. Is a bit of genocide too much for a girl to ask for? (That and a cute Ni-Kunni woman to cuddle with.) Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8786	Posted - 2016.10.21 00:04:00 - [112] - Quote Dare say, Alizabeth. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Arrendis GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 2549	Posted - 2016.10.21 00:04:36 - [113] - Quote Fine. No promises on the Ni-Kunni girl, though.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8786	Posted - 2016.10.21 00:05:23 - [114] - Quote Oh-- crap. Missed that bit. Uh. What Arrendis said. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 942	Posted - 2016.10.21 00:14:58 - [115] - Quote I actually kinda have one. Sort of. I think. Maybe? The point being, I'm a woman with simple desires: Drifter genocide and a Ni-Kunni girlfriend. It used to be Drifter genocide and chewing bubble gum, but I ran out of bubble gum. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1719	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:03:38 - [116] - Quote Alrighty now. So, if we've quite finished arguing about Directive Alpha Gamma 12, lets move this discussion on. SO, HOW ABOUT THAT DIRECTIVE ALPHA GAMMA ELEVEN, HUH ? Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 949	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:06:47 - [117] - Quote Actually, better question: who names this stuff? Directive Alpha Gamma 12 sounds like something out of bad science fiction. And yes, I know I live on a spaceship. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1694	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:07:57 - [118] - Quote Alizabeth Vea wrote: Actually, better question: who names this stuff? Directive Alpha Gamma 12 sounds like something out of bad science fiction. And yes, I know I live on a spaceship. Perhaps the entire CONCORD Inner Circle (or whatever they call themselves) are massive nerds? A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1720	Posted - 2016.10.21 05:35:51 - [119] - Quote What if I told you, that the Inner Circle, isn't actually a circle ? It's a nonagon. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1694	Posted - 2016.10.21 06:48:51 - [120] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: What if I told you, that the Inner Circle, isn't actually a circle ? It's a nonagon. Could be a square or a pentagon for all we know. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2889	Posted - 2016.10.21 08:28:09 - [121] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Valerie Valate wrote: What if I told you, that the Inner Circle, isn't actually a circle ? It's a nonagon. Could be a square or a pentagon for all we know. Polygon, minmatar. It is called polygon when you don't know number of vertices. Gah, I should demand payment for educating tribals. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Mark Neismith Singular Inc. 1	Posted - 2016.10.21 08:46:01 - [122] - Quote Matias Kurovassi wrote: I am not assigning any nobility to the actions of the SSoE as regards their proliferation of clone technology. In fact, what they did could be considered positively underhanded. The Jove Empire and now its successor, the Society, are the only CONCORD member not obligated to share their technology with others, so if this new cloning tech has Jovian roots then what the Sisters did was the best way to prevent the Society from blocking its potential widespread use. This is a valid point. Makes me think - what if this new cloning technology is designed to prevent accidents like the one with the former Amarr Empress Jamyl being possessed by the Other? And by bypassing CONCORD and the Society in the process - does that means that it is too late for those organizations?
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1695	Posted - 2016.10.21 08:53:47 - [123] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: Elmund Egivand wrote: Valerie Valate wrote: What if I told you, that the Inner Circle, isn't actually a circle ? It's a nonagon. Could be a square or a pentagon for all we know. Polygon, minmatar. It is called polygon when you don't know number of vertices. Gah, I should demand payment for educating tribals. You are an idiot. I didn't bring out four sides or five sides out of nowhere. Recall again exactly how many factions form the membership of the CONCORD Inner Circle. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2889	Posted - 2016.10.21 08:55:01 - [124] - Quote By other what? And excuse me, but these ideas of possession sound like some sort of tinfoilhattery. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2889	Posted - 2016.10.21 08:57:50 - [125] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: You are an idiot. I have asked you already to not put your mental qualities on me. I think I'll better save my time and won't waste it on educating tribals which display lack of capacity to learn. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1723	Posted - 2016.10.21 13:45:00 - [126] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: I didn't bring out four sides or five sides out of nowhere. Recall again exactly how many factions form the membership of the CONCORD Inner Circle. 5 signatory members, consisting of the Great Powers plus the Minmatar. 4 CONCORD appointees in addition to those 5. Makes 9. I think the idea is that the 4 CONCORD members can be overruled on something by the 5 signatory members, but it takes unanimity from those signatory members to do that kind of thing. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Ria Nieyli 46552	Posted - 2016.10.21 14:05:49 - [127] - Quote So with the Jove functionally missing, it's a stalemate at best?
Utari Onzo Pentag Blade Curatores Veritatis Alliance 1433	Posted - 2016.10.21 17:55:14 - [128] - Quote Ria Nieyli wrote: So with the Jove functionally missing, it's a stalemate at best? Not quite, the Society of Concious Thought has officially taken the Jove Empire's seat. It's early days but they may come out as a sort of tie breaker actor. Or perhaps something more disruptive. Or even perhaps supporters of the status quo, maintaining the current stalemate between the big four. All we can do is wait and see, but the potential for all kinds of things is there with a now active fifth player. "Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1697	Posted - 2016.10.22 17:16:51 - [129] - Quote Valerie Valate wrote: Elmund Egivand wrote: I didn't bring out four sides or five sides out of nowhere. Recall again exactly how many factions form the membership of the CONCORD Inner Circle. 5 signatory members, consisting of the Great Powers plus the Minmatar. 4 CONCORD appointees in addition to those 5. Makes 9. I think the idea is that the 4 CONCORD members can be overruled on something by the 5 signatory members, but it takes unanimity from those signatory members to do that kind of thing. So, a nonagon then. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik 1725	Posted - 2016.10.23 06:38:27 - [130] - Quote Elmund Egivand wrote: Valerie Valate wrote: Elmund Egivand wrote: I didn't bring out four sides or five sides out of nowhere. Recall again exactly how many factions form the membership of the CONCORD Inner Circle. 5 signatory members, consisting of the Great Powers plus the Minmatar. 4 CONCORD appointees in addition to those 5. Makes 9. I think the idea is that the 4 CONCORD members can be overruled on something by the 5 signatory members, but it takes unanimity from those signatory members to do that kind of thing. So, a nonagon then. Well, yes, like I said. A Nonagon. I'd expect the seating arrangement to be something like Signatory, Concord, Signatory, Concord, since well, if the Gallente and Caldari members were next to each other, I'd expect the Gallente to fondle the Caldari one's thigh, which would be Awkward, around a decagonal table, with the CONCORD five-pointed star emblazoned on it, with the signatories sitting in the seats at the points of the star, and the concord members in the seats in the gaps between the points. The fifth gap between points of the stars, is the one of course, that faces the door. There has to be a door, after all. Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Alizabeth Vea Hounds of Sarum 956	Posted - 2016.10.23 06:53:57 - [131] - Quote I would tell you what kind of table they have, but I looked it up. Directive Rho Omicron Phi Chai Mate 69 is the CONCORD Directive of Table Sizes and Shapes. It is 100% completely and totally classified. Go try and look it up for yourselves. You can't read it. Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum. "Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Elmund Egivand Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 1701	Posted - 2016.10.24 02:19:22 - [132] - Quote Alizabeth Vea wrote: I would tell you what kind of table they have, but I looked it up. Directive Rho Omicron Phi Chai Mate 69 is the CONCORD Directive of Table Sizes and Shapes. It is 100% completely and totally classified. Go try and look it up for yourselves. You can't read it. CONCORD are a bunch of twats. A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8793	Posted - 2016.10.24 02:35:40 - [133] - Quote Well, I can't very well argue with that. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Makoto Priano Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium 8800	Posted - 2016.10.29 01:44:19 - [134] - Quote Maker! What a difference a day makes! While there's no progress on the SoCT front, the (admittedly unverified) information from Taya Akira is suggestive. While much of it is as we've suspected or known (particularly the Drifter use of Jove corpses as biomass stock), the mention of pairing presumably Sleeper cybernetics with artificial intelligence is highly suggestive. Given CONCORD dictates on AI useage, this may very well be why CONCORD was sidestepped. Expect more on this shortly. Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

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