Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 06:36:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/03/2007 06:32:51
Quote: Why is a faction that is almost entirely centered around long range combat frequently slower than its counterparts
The same reason that amarr is slow.
Becuase any time a ship is able to fire at its opponent and that opponent is not able to fire back, it will be exploited to the fullest.
If the longest ranged ships[amarr for short range turrets, caldari even farther with missiles and long range turrets] are able to dictate range then no other ship will be able to survive in PvP.
Lets look at what happens to comparative DPS of the cruisers if a caracal can dictate range.
Thorax DPS: 0 Maller DPS: 0 Rifter DPS: 0 Caracal DPS: >0
Who wins this battle? The Caracal every time.
This is why the speed is setup in the manner it is
Longest range: Caldari Second Longest: Amarr Middle/Varying Range: Minmatar Short Range: Gallente
Slowest: Caldari Second Slowest: Amarr Third Slowest: Gallente Fastest: Minmatar
Why? Because Minmatar need to be able to stay out of range of Gallente and under the tracking of amarr. Gallente needs to be able to close against Caldari, then Amarr, and stay in range of minmatar long enough to kill them.
Amarr needs to be able to close against Caldari. Caldari needs to close against no one.
Hense it is the slowest. It should also be noted that the speed differences between Caldari, Amarr, and Gallente ships are currently very small.
Quote: ECM whine
ECM is 98% as effective as it used to be on dedicated ships. Use range as your tank since its more difficult to fit one. Caldari ECM ships are now the only ships that can effectivly use ECM, and they still use it well.
Quote: Ferox Whine
Its a gang ship, use it in a gang.
Quote: Enemies Warp out
Try bringing friends. I can assure you that your enemy wont hesistate to bring friends if he has them. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Major Stuart
Maelstrom Crew
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 09:01:00 -
[32]
i wouldnt say the scorp or BB are useless i would say they are still one of the most usefull ships in the game, for gang combat atleast, the ferox i love that ship and i use HAM's on it.
I would like the ships to be faster but its not really a must for me and i do like the idea of warping in at hgher than 100km but i think there should be a 'warp in at...' then a box comes up and you type how far, would be nice to warp in at optimal instead of 10km difference.
That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter. It is a combat drone used by carriers. |
Ryysa
North Face Force Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 09:43:00 -
[33]
Warping in a scorp on a 100km spot away from the battle when your gang is engaged in the middle of that, will swiftly turn the tide.
Well... unless it's a vaga/ceptor zoom zoom gang :P
Nanos are nerfed now, so ranges are more meaningful again.
N.F.F. Recruitment |
R2 D3
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 10:37:00 -
[34]
I think cald speed is fine as it is they shouldn't dictate range.
ecm also isn't bad it's just that you now need to train skills for it to make good use of it.
I don't think warp disrupt ranges on caldari ships is a good idea.
however I think it is a good idea to double all range of all propulsion jamming modules. (so warp disrupt 40 warp scram 15 webber 20) or maybe do it only 1.5x (so warp disrupt 30 etc.) that way overall combat will also happens on longer range what will be a help for moa and ferox.
and warping to over 100km......you have gangm8s in ceptors/cov ops for a reasson
|
welsh wizard
0utbreak
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 10:55:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Msobe There are two universal truths about MMOs.
1. Players always gravitate towards the strongest race/skills/ships. 1b. The most played race is most played because it is strongest. 1c. The least played race is least played because it is the weakest.
2. Players always complain that their own race/skills/ships are weakest. 2b. The most played race always complains the loudest, since there are more of them. 2c. The least played race complains the least, since there are so few of them - and they didn't pick that race because it was strongest.
Caldari are the most common race. They also complain the loudest. As an exercise in logic, make a reasonable conclusion.
Alternatively the majority of the above might be wrong!? Incidentally it is. Ask some Caldari old school what the real reasons for choosing Caldari were.
As for the missiles always hit argument, thats what someone who doesn't have any experience in a missile ship says. I swear some of you think if you train Caldari Battleship II & Torpedos I you instantly become a unstoppable killing machine in every Caldari ship and with every Caldari weapons system.
The whole 'Caldari must be easy to fly and therefore must have superior ships because their missiles always hit' routine is complete rubbish as any sensible user of both systems will attest to.
It is the assumption some of you make isn't it? "He must be in a Raven because its the best ship and is the easiest to fly."
Very sad.
|
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 11:03:00 -
[36]
Lol...
I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP. |
smallgreenblur
Minmatar Wreckless Abandon
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 11:04:00 -
[37]
eeeeeeeeek it's a troll infestation!
*runs*
|
Mudkest
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 11:26:00 -
[38]
what about the other non-caldari sniping ships(yes, theye exist. jsut because caldari get bonus to optimal range on some ships doenst mean theye are the only ships designed for longrange combat)
if you really were concerned about the game balance then you would sugest the jammer-range bonus for longrange ships, and not caldari gunboats.
anyway eve is a multiplayer game, not a hollywood movie about a 1-man army OMGWTFPAWNING everyone else
-Duct tape might hold the univurse together, but it's coffee that makes it tick |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 12:09:00 -
[39]
Edited by: LUKEC on 24/03/2007 12:06:49 Caldari was fine, move along... or actually there are few issues...
If anything hit caldari, it was javelin nerf and hp increase(look vaga... no more vaga). Silly arguments about range & stuff, in small scale warefare, you eiter fight in 20km range or you don't kill anything anymore.
In big fights, missiles still work(but you must fit rigs for torps) and ECM and damps are still effective. Rook will still ruin your day if used properly.
Where caldari fails is: small scale warefare, tanking without ability to scramble+web is 4tl, dps is ok, but not impressive anymore, again thanks to hp boost(long are gone days when you could 4 volley bs with proper dmg type)...
Oh well, rooks are still ok, my damparaven is still better than most gallente recons and phoenix will be fine as well.
But honestly, some minmatard ships need to be looked at, especially vaga & sleipnir.
-------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
|
Humpalot
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 17:30:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Goumindong If the longest ranged ships[amarr for short range turrets, caldari even farther with missiles and long range turrets] are able to dictate range then no other ship will be able to survive in PvP.
Not so sure I agree with the analysis of the Amarr here. Amarr do have the longest ranged short ranged turrets but what does that get them? They have laughable falloff meaning they have a much narrower window that they must keep their targets in to be effective. What's more, they have to worry about keeping their target above a certain range AND below a certain range. Ships that want to knife fight (blasters) only want to get in your face, then web then have fun. Long range ships (rails) only need to worry about keeping distance so run away while you try to close. The tactical scene for Amarr is much more complex trying to keep people somewhere in the middle. Combine that with 2nd slowest speed and it is not a comfortable position to be in not to mention fitting an MWD on an Amarr ship is, for the most part, a bad idea (what with cap issues).
|
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 18:06:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Humpalot
Originally by: Goumindong If the longest ranged ships[amarr for short range turrets, caldari even farther with missiles and long range turrets] are able to dictate range then no other ship will be able to survive in PvP.
Not so sure I agree with the analysis of the Amarr here. Amarr do have the longest ranged short ranged turrets but what does that get them? They have laughable falloff meaning they have a much narrower window that they must keep their targets in to be effective. What's more, they have to worry about keeping their target above a certain range AND below a certain range. Ships that want to knife fight (blasters) only want to get in your face, then web then have fun. Long range ships (rails) only need to worry about keeping distance so run away while you try to close. The tactical scene for Amarr is much more complex trying to keep people somewhere in the middle. Combine that with 2nd slowest speed and it is not a comfortable position to be in not to mention fitting an MWD on an Amarr ship is, for the most part, a bad idea (what with cap issues).
For pulses, the tactical basis is to be far away. There is no "keeping them close" aspect of pulses. Except for Caldari ships, but they dont have the speed to get out of the way. Falloff is a one way deal, tracking is what limits close range fighting.
Essentialy when comparing the turret ships you get
Amarr = long Minmatar = mid Gallente = short
Minmatar are the ones that need to keep mid range in order to be effective[they need to be above Gallente and Below Minmatar range].
Amarr want to get as far out as possible.
So should missile ships, which is why they are slow. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Humpalot
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 18:41:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Goumindong For pulses, the tactical basis is to be far away. There is no "keeping them close" aspect of pulses. Except for Caldari ships, but they dont have the speed to get out of the way. Falloff is a one way deal, tracking is what limits close range fighting.
Essentialy when comparing the turret ships you get
Amarr = long Minmatar = mid Gallente = short
Minmatar are the ones that need to keep mid range in order to be effective[they need to be above Gallente and Below Minmatar range].
Amarr want to get as far out as possible.
So should missile ships, which is why they are slow.
Not trying to be contrary...really want to understand but I am not seeing it.
Amarr trying to stay as "far away" as possible seems contradictory with short range weapons. Take Heavy Pulse lasers. With Xray ammo their engagement envelope is roughly 10-15km (not counting various mods/bonuses).
Gallente guy with blasters wants to be in my face. My job is to keep him in a 5km "window". That is damn small and Gallente guy's only job is to close that range. Once under 10km I am almost certainly webbed and the ball is in the Gallente's court.
Caldari guy with rails or missiles only wants to stay above 15km range. My DPS disappears while he can nail me. If he is a missile ship and I get him in my window he can choose to increase OR decrease range as he likes...either one will bork my firing solutions. So, while he may well be slower than me (and probably not by a whole lot) he has more tactical options to mess me up as maneuvering to maintain a 5km window is not easy as he tries to jet away and then reverse course as I chase him...if he has a web on and gets me under 10km he's golden. If he is a rail ship then I have to chase him to slowly close range and if things start looking bad for him (he hasn't killed me yet and I am coming into optimal) he has more opportunity to bug out before I dip into 20km or less for a scram (assuming I even have one...mid slot challenged).
Minmatar guy easily has the speed on me so can dictate range to his advantage with relative ease.
I know I am simplifying things here (mods, gangs, etc. change things up) but just trying to keep the sense of the races clear.
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 18:59:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/03/2007 18:56:49
Originally by: Humpalot snip
Your operating effective range is not 10-15km with x-ray.
Your operating effective range 5-15km, with scorch your operating effective range is 5-26.5km.
The difference in the upper bound for you and the upper bound for gallente is that a gallente is fighting to keep you under their upper bound. And for Amarr, the upper bound only means when you can start shooting. If the Gallente doesnt keep you under his upper bound, he gets roasted. If you dont keep the gallente under your upper bound, nothing happens.
Rails/Beams/Artillery are for the most part, right out, since they can all hit so far out that crossing the distance is unreasonable.
Missiles are kind of right in the middle, they dont have any real bounds except their max range. Their lower bound is only there because they dont want opponents to do damage, much like the lower bound on autocannons[better tracking and lower optimal than blasters means that they still increase damage by getting close, its just that blasters start increasing damage more]. And Much like the lower bound on autocannons, its most beneficial to missile users to be just over their opponents upper bound.
The difference is that because nothing really shoots farther than missiles there is no effective upper bound, its just when they can start shooting, similar to pulse lasers with regards to the other ships.
Short range ships need to have the ability to dictate range because someone has to be fastest and if its long range ships then those ships will win every time.
---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 20:31:00 -
[44]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Msobe There are two universal truths about MMOs.
1. Players always gravitate towards the strongest race/skills/ships. 1b. The most played race is most played because it is strongest. 1c. The least played race is least played because it is the weakest.
2. Players always complain that their own race/skills/ships are weakest. 2b. The most played race always complains the loudest, since there are more of them. 2c. The least played race complains the least, since there are so few of them - and they didn't pick that race because it was strongest.
Caldari are the most common race. They also complain the loudest. As an exercise in logic, make a reasonable conclusion.
Alternatively the majority of the above might be wrong!? Incidentally it is. Ask some Caldari old school what the real reasons for choosing Caldari were.
As for the missiles always hit argument, thats what someone who doesn't have any experience in a missile ship says. I swear some of you think if you train Caldari Battleship II & Torpedos I you instantly become a unstoppable killing machine in every Caldari ship and with every Caldari weapons system.
The whole 'Caldari must be easy to fly and therefore must have superior ships because their missiles always hit' routine is complete rubbish as any sensible user of both systems will attest to.
It is the assumption some of you make isn't it? "He must be in a Raven because its the best ship and is the easiest to fly."
Very sad.
Actually, I started playing Caldari, because I thought the description of the Caldari state was least neurotic. As newb, I had no idea what stats were relevant, or what ships were worth flying.
|
Humpalot
|
Posted - 2007.03.24 20:37:00 -
[45]
Originally by: James Lyrus Actually, I started playing Caldari, because I thought the description of the Caldari state was least neurotic. As newb, I had no idea what stats were relevant, or what ships were worth flying.
I think this is a big part of Caldari popularity. When starting the other races simply look less appealing. Amarr are slavers. Minmatar are former slaves putting ships together with duct tape and Gallente seem flaky. Caldari are probably closest to most Western sensibilities.
|
Mudkest
|
Posted - 2007.03.25 21:32:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Humpalot <snip>
I know I am simplifying things here (mods, gangs, etc. change things up) but just trying to keep the sense of the races clear.
mods adn gangs can be ignored when simplifying, but you are forgeting one major aspect in the speed simplification. shield/armor. in case of minmatar, theye sacrificed shield and armor in favour of speed, to be able to engage where theye want too. Amar sacrificed speed in favor of armor, shoot from far away and if something is hitting you ahve enough armor to ignore it till support is able to get the thing that's hitting you, away from you.
not sure what galante/caldari view on speed/damage control are though but I am sure someone is able to explain 8)
-Duct tape might hold the univurse together, but it's coffee that makes it tick |
Mudkest
|
Posted - 2007.03.25 21:34:00 -
[47]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Actually, I started playing Caldari, because I thought the description of the Caldari state was least neurotic. As newb, I had no idea what stats were relevant, or what ships were worth flying.
true, is why I chose minmatar/sebiestor, but I dont limit myself to minmatar ships just because I chose minmatar at start, I can fly a fair amount of caldari adn galante ships as well(though I do find minmatar ship most fun, there are times when flying a caracel or enyo are pretty nice as well)
-Duct tape might hold the univurse together, but it's coffee that makes it tick |
Auldare
The Ninja Coalition Phobos Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.03.25 21:57:00 -
[48]
The nerf on Caldari mass was in the early days when they could turn on a stamp and have a great tank. The days of the needed nerf is over but replacing their correct mass has been kinda 'forgotten'.
================================================
|
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.03.26 01:07:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Mudkest
mods adn gangs can be ignored when simplifying, but you are forgeting one major aspect in the speed simplification. shield/armor. in case of minmatar, theye sacrificed shield and armor in favour of speed, to be able to engage where theye want too.
And yet they do have some super tankers, a maelstrom tanks better than a rokh for example.
Quote: Amar sacrificed speed in favor of armor, shoot from far away and if something is hitting you ahve enough armor to ignore it till support is able to get the thing that's hitting you, away from you.
Amarr does not tank any better than anybody else, in fact they tank worse. its a non-existent "advantage", just like the pulse lasers's "extra damage".
|
Zeerover
Caldari DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations
|
Posted - 2007.03.26 02:49:00 -
[50]
I think the biggest reason that people select Caldari is that you can get a new character with int 9, mem 9, wil 9, per 9 and cha 3. That makes for the best non-trader character.
|
|
Yulai Shikat
|
Posted - 2007.03.26 14:43:00 -
[51]
You know whats great about this OP... it aint gonna happen. Not trolling or anything, just sayin it's not going to happen. I will say that Caldari had a serious overpowerment and now that it's been nerfed Caldari pilots are generaly ****ed because there used to that uberness.
ECM's were nerfed for a dam good reason and STILL pilots who have good skills in that area can get cycle jams on people, imo one jam is enough to even the odds with any standard ship. Caldari do not need another E-warfare bonus like warp jamming distance.
ships are fine the way they are, just figure out a good setup and you will be fine, other than that have someone with you to handle the locking down job. Not to mention the BullShnit issue with those damned passive shield tanks... so please don't say that Caldari are "lacking". Also Caldari are, like stated before the naturally slowest race. You don't need a lot fo speed with a missile ship, or snipe ship.
"And Jerks are not needed, really, if you want to say something along the lines of, "I'll quit if they "boost" caldari" and then DO NOT back up your claims, you do not belong here."
Sometimes you gotta have jerk opinions, if you want to label them as that. I am not trying to troll just trying to state that Caldari is not underpowered. They don't need speed boost's nor do they require a warp jamming bonus. Every race has there uniqueness to them. You just happen to not like what Caldari has in that area I guess.
BTW this is Galen Silas, I had to post on this char cause my main is down due to a rejected credit card.
|
Aecursis
|
Posted - 2007.03.27 19:34:00 -
[52]
The problem with ECM isn't the jam strength, but how many slots it takes up. Right now with 5 slots taken, I noyl have a 20-30% chance to jam any decent ship. That percentage is fine, but not for taking up 5 medium slots. All that would be needed to make the Scorpion useful again would be to make ECM jammers have a strength of somewhere around 10 (they're currently 2) and make it so that you can only activate 1 per target. That keeps the current jamming strength abbout the same, and frees up some slots of the Scorpion to make it a bit more rounded. |
britchie
Gallente Kingdom of Kador
|
Posted - 2007.03.27 19:42:00 -
[53]
Edited by: britchie on 27/03/2007 19:39:39
Quote: The problem with ECM isn't the jam strength, but how many slots it takes up. Right now with 5 slots taken, I noyl have a 20-30% chance to jam any decent ship. That percentage is fine, but not for taking up 5 medium slots. All that would be needed to make the Scorpion useful again would be to make ECM jammers have a strength of somewhere around 10 (they're currently 2) and make it so that you can only activate 1 per target. That keeps the current jamming strength abbout the same, and frees up some slots of the Scorpion to make it a bit more rounded.
An easy way to do that would be to give the dedicated ecm ships a buff to increase the strength of jammers. people could still use 5 or so and be good or they could drop some so they can try to tank.
Does anyone know how to get my name capitalized? |
Zekk Pacus
Caldari StateCorp The State
|
Posted - 2007.03.27 21:46:00 -
[54]
Only one thing annoys me about Caldari.
All other racial recons get bonuses to both their primary EW and a secondary form (Webs, Disruptors, NOS). Caldari? Nah, we're not worthy of two bonuses.
|
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2007.03.28 09:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Aecursis The problem with ECM isn't the jam strength, but how many slots it takes up. Right now with 5 slots taken, I noyl have a 20-30% chance to jam any decent ship. That percentage is fine, but not for taking up 5 medium slots.
Rrrrrright.
5 t2 multies with NO skills, NO shipbonus and NO SDAs have already a 34% chance to jam a 30 sensorstrength target.
What is your "decent ship"? A battleship with 2 ECCM fitted?
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |