| Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4336
   |
Posted - 2016.10.27 08:13:07 -
[31] - Quote
I apologize: my argument is a semantic one. I do not disagree as a matter of fact that the process you describe is a reality. I simply disagree with your choice of terminology.
I think you and I have differing understandings of what the word "appropriation" means. I have always understood it to mean "to take and make one's own, usually without the owner's consent." Synonymous with [i']seizing'[/i], 'commandeering', 'acquisition' and 'hijack'.
Which would make it not the correct word for what you so eloquently described as the "attempted rapine of Caldari culture". I have always interpreted that event not as being a case of attempting to seize our culture and use it for their own (that, after all, would just be effective cultural colonization on our part), but rather to impose their culture on us and allow ours to be crushed.
For which, I think words such as 'supplant', 'replace', 'suppress' or possibly 'inflict' might be more apt.
"Cultural Supplantation" rolls just as easily off the tongue as "Cultural Appropriation" and I think would be a much more accurate description of what our people faced and fought.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Noticed.
2024
|
Posted - 2016.10.27 14:20:53 -
[32] - Quote
Mr. Hakatain;
In my mind, where culture is concerned, appropriation, assimilation, and supplantation can operate on a similar tangent. A native culture is appropriated (implying intent and agency) and then re-defined according to fit in with a foreign civilization to enforce assimilation which then leads to the supplantation of the native culture with a foreign one over time. A process most often justified by the one doing the cultural enforcing upon another as the bringing of, "Enlightenment," Or, "Civilization," As if the society and people's being colonized and subjugated by a foreign power should be thankful for their humiliation and depredation of their culture because it comes with the most parochial good intentions.
Given the price in blood and lives paid by our forebears to secure Caldari independence, culture, and civilization from the good intentions of colonial imperialism in the Federation I will always oppose the appropriation of my culture and values with the utmost prejudice and vehemence. Regardless of whether it is an Amarrian proselytizing that the Maker is their God in disguise; the behaviour of SuVee in Saisio; or a Matari or Achuran telling me they are Caldari when they trace no lineage to my Homeland. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
6582
|
Posted - 2016.10.27 15:01:52 -
[33] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:It tastes exactly like the drivel you have spouted. I am very sure you made your white-collar highly-ranked KK employee family very proud, acting like a Gallente slanderous hedonist rather than a true and proper Patriot as you did.
As a KK citizen (and somebody who actually comes from a geneline that is actually used for serious work in Suuvee) I wish you'd stop taking him seriously. At this point I'm not sure whether he's trolling you foreigners or us Caldari more.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4337
|
Posted - 2016.10.27 21:12:27 -
[34] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:...a Matari or Achuran telling me they are Caldari when they trace no lineage to my Homeland.
On this point in particular I think we must agree to have a slight difference of opinion.
For me, "Caldari" is less an ethnic group and more a life philosophy, an allegiance and state of mind. One that I am quite happy for others to adopt, and interpret.
It is the destruction of our way of life that I fear, not the notion that others might wish to partake.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
|
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
16
|
Posted - 2016.10.28 01:21:34 -
[35] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
In my province the sect and suuvee Orso integrated to the point where I referred to both of them with him when I referred the government of The province |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
2895
|
Posted - 2016.10.28 11:49:18 -
[36] - Quote
I actually agree that being Caldari means life philosophy, allegiance and state of mind...
But I will greatly appreciate that you, both Stitcher and Gesakaarin, leave it for us, Caldari, to decide what does it mean to be Caldari. Because it doesn't concern you and your kind in any way.
You both stopped being Caldari when you decide to betray our State.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2131
|
Posted - 2016.10.28 15:03:06 -
[37] - Quote
It's good to know Kimmy still holds the final authority on who gets to be Caldari.
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
2895
|
Posted - 2016.10.28 15:09:51 -
[38] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:It's good to know Kimmy still holds the final authority on who gets to be Caldari.
Thank you for your irrelevant and ignorant comment. And for those who still failed to figure such trivial things out, I'll do what Cptn. Obvious should have done:
I am not a 'final authority' in Caldari State. I am just Officer of Caldari State and citizen. And as a Caldari citizen I can say and discuss what Caldari could and should be, since I am part of that group.
Neither Stitcher, nor Gesakaarin are Caldari anymore thus their attempt on defining who we are has triggered my harsh response: they shouldn't put their nose into our affairs.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Nomistrav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
336
|
Posted - 2016.10.29 07:13:23 -
[39] - Quote
xXuber-NitsheXx wrote:quote=Bataav "The populist herd mentality in the Federation means its a common occurance, and while people may have the legal right to do so, they're often oblivious to the deep offense it causes, as they adopt and discard ethnic traditions on a whim, treating them as little more than fashion statements." Ethnic traditions are merely fashion statements of a reactionary primitive tribe in a rut. Its our Caldari duty to push them out of that rut. Change that head scarf for a baseball cap. If we make a healthy profit along the way so be it. If we appropriate that trendy tribal pattern and market it to the rest of Empire for a season that's smart Caldari business. I'm more than happy for them to culturally appropriate our rigid Caldari copyright laws, if we don't impose them first. Don't forget - might is right. 
Pray tell that malformed jaw and those botulin riddled lips ever become copyrighted, it may just save the gene pool from an astounding catastrophe.
Third Place Winner
Pod and Planet Fiction Contest YC114
|
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
341
|
Posted - 2016.10.29 09:16:07 -
[40] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Mr. Hakatain;
...or a Matari or Achuran telling me they are Caldari when they trace no lineage to my Homeland.
Very interesting, if unsurprising. |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
1147
|
Posted - 2016.10.29 11:29:42 -
[41] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:It's good to know Kimmy still holds the final authority on who gets to be Caldari.
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not a 'final authority' in Caldari State.
[...]
Neither Stitcher, nor Gesakaarin are Caldari anymore [...] they shouldn't put their nose into our affairs.
Mmhm. Yes, dear.
Anyhow, maybe you should lay down this meddlesome gallentean haughtiness of yours a notch or two and come back to some caldari virtues, such as shutting up when you've got no constructive or sourced information to add. Get back in line and polish your boots and service rifle a bit more to get some perspective about what your purpose in our society is. It clearly is neither diplomacy, politics or cultural exchange.
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
621
|
Posted - 2016.10.29 14:03:04 -
[42] - Quote
I am going to need a sorted index of Caldari pilots from most to least Caldari. Preferably before all of you masturbate over it.
Meritocracy must mean arguing over who has the most right to decide what is the most meritorious.
As strength goes.
|
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4342
|
Posted - 2016.10.29 16:59:36 -
[43] - Quote
somehow I think you've got a slightly skewed idea of what meritocracy means.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
|
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
623
|
Posted - 2016.10.29 18:28:52 -
[44] - Quote
I am going to need to see how high on the Caldari list you are before I can take your opinion into consideration Verin.
As strength goes.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
6597
|
Posted - 2016.10.30 07:24:34 -
[45] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:I am going to need to see how high on the Caldari list you are before I can take your opinion into consideration Verin.
I remember Stitcher being a Civire posterboy for the Capsuleer effort when I was a rookie in short pants and knee-high boots. I'm not sure how high he is on the list but I'm going to go with "Probably fairly high, especially if you're a Liberal."
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4343
|
Posted - 2016.10.30 23:10:23 -
[46] - Quote
A case of "O how the mighty have fallen" according to some people...
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
6602
|
Posted - 2016.10.31 15:04:24 -
[47] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:A case of "O how the mighty have fallen" according to some people...
Well, I have a memory of that time and some genuine opinions that I formed on my own.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
2898
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 12:01:12 -
[48] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:It's good to know Kimmy still holds the final authority on who gets to be Caldari. Diana Kim wrote:
I am not a 'final authority' in Caldari State.
[...]
Neither Stitcher, nor Gesakaarin are Caldari anymore [...] they shouldn't put their nose into our affairs.
Mmhm. Yes, dear. Anyhow, maybe you should lay down this meddlesome gallentean haughtiness of yours a notch or two and come back to some caldari virtues, such as shutting up when you've got no constructive or sourced information to add. Get back in line and polish your boots and service rifle a bit more to get some perspective about what your purpose in our society is. It clearly is neither diplomacy, politics or cultural exchange.
I am pretty well doing my job, that is - destroying enemies of the State. But in any way, I'd recommend you to avoid putting your nose into business that doesn't concern you. Or shall I remind that your corporation, unlike mine, isn't actually explicitly affiliated to Caldari State, and whether you are hostile or not to Caldari State could be still a separate discussion. We might start it if you insist putting your nose where it doesn't belong.
Or you might get it pinched by a door, you know.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Merchant Rova
Pathway to the Next
60
|
Posted - 2016.11.01 16:40:06 -
[49] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:But in any way, I'd recommend you to avoid putting your nose into business that doesn't concern you.
If you don't want people to look at your drama, don't post it on an open forum.
Down with the traitor and up with the stars!
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Noticed.
2027
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 09:39:25 -
[50] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:...a Matari or Achuran telling me they are Caldari when they trace no lineage to my Homeland. On this point in particular I think we must agree to have a slight difference of opinion. For me, "Caldari" is less an ethnic group and more a life philosophy, an allegiance and state of mind. One that I am quite happy for others to adopt, and interpret. It is the destruction of our way of life that I fear, not the notion that others might wish to participate.
Yes, and this I think will always be a point of difference between Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, and Lai Dai versus the other CEP corporations politically and culturally. For myself, the Greater Good of society is in ensuring the cohesion of that society and the scope of individual thought and action should always place social cohesion above personal desire or opinion.
I am an open homosexual, but would I advocate same sex marriage within Kaalakiota or the State? No. That is because I understand that marriage, as it exists between a man and woman, serves a vital role as an institution that upholds social cohesion through natural procreation and promotes traditional upbringing of children to adhere to the values expected of them as a citizen.
I am a freelance mercenary, but would I promote my behaviour as one within Kaalakiota or the State? No. That is because such behaviour, while I feel apt for the violent and vociferous lifestyle of my current hydrostatic predacity, diminishes quality of social discourse, and the exercise of sovereign individual violence is a threat to the authority of society to necessarily impose itself upon an individual.
I am a capsuleer, but would I advance the type of racial mixing found in SCC organizations within Kaalakiota or the State? No. That is because to me, race and culture are one and the same, as such to allow the mixing of the races is to allow the mixing of cultures which is nothing short of an attack on the cultural and racial foundations of Caldari society.
In contrast, the progressives in the Liberals when evaluating the importance between the individual and the Greater Good of society, judge that it is the individual that is more important. As demonstrated by your statement, to be Caldari is not a racial and cultural paradigm that creates strong social bonds between fellow citizens, instead it is an individual choice. To you and others like you, being Caldari is something one decides upon and not a matter of birth, where cultural values are inculcated by family, tradition, duty, loyalty, and individual submission and obligation to the Greater Good.
Such thinking, that race and cultural are nothing more than an individual choice is a pernicious notion that is ideologically and philosophically no different than what exists in the Federation. To permit and allow it, is a destruction of the Caldari way of life because it sets a precedent that the individual is more important than society.
However, permit and allow it the rest of the State does except for the bastion of Caldari values and principles in the Patriots; and just because the rest of the State does so will never mean I will ever accept such flawed notions that race and culture are simply personal choices to be adopted or abandoned on a whim.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
6621
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 15:07:21 -
[51] - Quote
The great thing about the State is that a definition in the manner that Verin and Veikitamo have debated will never be handed down from on high. The lack of a central arbiter of culture, with the focus placed on ad hoc groups within the individual Mega Corps means that these two definitions of Caldari-ness will compete in the marketplace of ideas for final supremacy.
If Verin is right, then Liberal Mega Corps will prosper and the balance will shift in that direction.
If Veikitamo is right, then more conservative Mega Corps will prosper and the balance will shift in that direction.
Personally, I tend to suspect that Verin's idea is closer to correct - although I note that I still married another Civire.
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2521
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 15:22:41 -
[52] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I am a capsuleer, but would I advance the type of racial mixing found in SCC organizations within Kaalakiota or the State? No. That is because to me, race and culture are one and the same, as such to allow the mixing of the races is to allow the mixing of cultures which is nothing short of an attack on the cultural and racial foundations of Caldari society.
You've just summarized a lot of the reasons I don't think I'll ever bring my mixed-blood Achur self back to the State.
Thanks, I guess.
... I don't think you could have said anything worse to me, Veik.
(I particularly love the way you indirectly lump the Achur uplift in with immigration as a matter of personal choice. Implying nasty things about mixed-blooded people is merely typical. Talking about the cultural indoctrination of the urban Achura into Caldari society like we were stealing your culture? That's kinda special.) |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
2903
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 15:37:16 -
[53] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I am a capsuleer, but would I advance the type of racial mixing found in SCC organizations within Kaalakiota or the State? No. That is because to me, race and culture are one and the same, as such to allow the mixing of the races is to allow the mixing of cultures which is nothing short of an attack on the cultural and racial foundations of Caldari society. You've just summarized a lot of the reasons I don't think I'll ever bring my mixed-blood Achur self back to the State. Thanks, I guess. ... I don't think you could have said anything worse to me, Veik. (I particularly love the way you indirectly lump the Achur uplift in with immigration as a matter of personal choice. Implying nasty things about mixed-blooded people is merely typical. Talking about the cultural indoctrination of the urban Achura into Caldari society like we were stealing your culture? That's kinda special.)
Ms. Jenneth, you really shouldn't take words of an exile like Gesakaarin for truth.
I assure you, in the State itself being a mixed-blood Achur won't cause you any problems, except maybe with early teenage kids (and maybe late teenage kids with mental retardation), who might speak something against halfbreeds. Such immaturity is not tolerated in Caldari professional spheres.
In the State you will be measured by your merits, efficiency and conformity to our culture, and not your parents (provided they are not gallente, of course). The only difficulty you will encounter is in Corporate Marriage Agency, which in most cases doesn't work with people of mixed heritage - but again, only because of professional qualities, since it messes with eugenics.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
|
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Noticed.
2027
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 17:26:11 -
[54] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I am a capsuleer, but would I advance the type of racial mixing found in SCC organizations within Kaalakiota or the State? No. That is because to me, race and culture are one and the same, as such to allow the mixing of the races is to allow the mixing of cultures which is nothing short of an attack on the cultural and racial foundations of Caldari society. You've just summarized a lot of the reasons I don't think I'll ever bring my mixed-blood Achur self back to the State. Thanks, I guess. ... I don't think you could have said anything worse to me, Veik.
The truth, like winter, can be harsh Ms. Jenneth.
There exists no such thing as half a Caldari -- you either are born as one fully or not at all.
I could have offered you saccharine words instead as placation, but I believe you intelligent enough to realize that there are no non-Caldari (Civire/Deteis) in leadership of a Megacorporation and that the among the non-citizen and Gurista the ranks are filled with halfbreeds because the shame of their births is considered a social offense if not a legal one.
It's not my fault if some, among SuVee especially, can't help themselves but to stick it in an Achuran hole sans prophylactics without due consideration for the consequences of that action or that any child born will always be a reminder to others of their failure in their duty.
|
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
2135
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 19:00:04 -
[55] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I am a capsuleer, but would I advance the type of racial mixing found in SCC organizations within Kaalakiota or the State? No. That is because to me, race and culture are one and the same, as such to allow the mixing of the races is to allow the mixing of cultures which is nothing short of an attack on the cultural and racial foundations of Caldari society. You've just summarized a lot of the reasons I don't think I'll ever bring my mixed-blood Achur self back to the State. Thanks, I guess. ... I don't think you could have said anything worse to me, Veik. The truth, like winter, can be harsh Ms. Jenneth. There exists no such thing as half a Caldari -- you either are born as one fully or not at all. I could have offered you saccharine words instead as placation, but I believe you intelligent enough to realize that there are no non-Caldari (Civire/Deteis) in leadership of a Megacorporation and that the among the non-citizen and Gurista the ranks are filled with halfbreeds because the shame of their births is considered a social offense if not a legal one. It's not my fault if some, among SuVee especially, can't help themselves but to stick it in an Achuran hole sans prophylactics without due consideration for the consequences of that action or that any child born will always be a reminder to others of their failure in their duty.
You have such an open minded view of life, it's soooo refreshing in this day and age to see that.....
A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
|
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2524
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 20:34:51 -
[56] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:The truth, like winter, can be harsh Ms. Jenneth.
There exists no such thing as half a Caldari -- you either are born as one fully or not at all.
Truth?
As with other social constructs, cultural rules may or may not reflect an underlying reality. As with other social constructs, a culture's reality is dictated by those participating in it. Club rules are set by the membership, and consist of whatever the membership likes.
Only, the only true law is the one that can't be broken. The rest is a game of make-believe played on the largest possible scale.
Your definition of "Caldari" is acceptable for you, but you're a fool if you think it's the correct one. There isn't a correct one. The universe does not care or even have a set definition for what "Caldari" is.
The Winds don't care about you or me. They don't care about us, either.
That's truth, Veik. Like winter, it can be harsh. |
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
347
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 23:37:09 -
[57] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Your definition of "Caldari" is acceptable for you, but you're a fool if you think it's the correct one. There isn't a correct one. The universe does not care or even have a set definition for what "Caldari" is.
Why can't universe have a set definition for what "Caldari" is, wouldn't there be any Caldari at all if universe didn't have a set definition for them? |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Noticed.
2029
|
Posted - 2016.11.03 23:58:42 -
[58] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Your definition of "Caldari" is acceptable for you, but you're a fool if you think it's the correct one. There isn't a correct one. The universe does not care or even have a set definition for what "Caldari" is.
The Winds don't care about you or me. They don't care about us, either.
That's truth, Veik. Like winter, it can be harsh.
The universe may not have a set definition for what Caldari is, but Caldari like myself do -- and it does not involve foreign blood or foreign values interceding upon my cultural and racial identity. You may question my beliefs, you may disagree with them, but that will not change my belief in them, nor cause me to deviate from the prosecution of my purpose as I swore it upon Sobaseki's Flag fifty years ago.
I'll take that any day over the kilometre wide and centimetre deep solipsism of, "How can your beliefs be real if your eyes that see the universe can't be real." |
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
678
|
Posted - 2016.11.04 00:25:13 -
[59] - Quote
I must admit that I have gained a certain respect for Ms. Gesakaarin and her brutal, uncompromising sense of Caldariness. The wishy-washy, wayward, liberal "Amarr Bloc" could learn a thing or two from her. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2525
|
Posted - 2016.11.04 00:51:03 -
[60] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I'll take that any day over the kilometre wide and centimetre deep solipsism of, "How can your beliefs be real if your eyes that see the universe can't be real."
Solipsism is the belief that the self is all that can be known to exist. My system of belief is pretty much the diametric opposite (I don't believe in my own existence as a separate being).
... but the statement that "my belief is worthwhile because I believe it"? That's maybe a bit solipsistic. |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |