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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar
Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.25 12:34:00 -
[1]
Can someone please tell me if I'm missing something:-
After sitting and going through the market in several regions, pricing up datacores etc, looking at the time and isk required, and taking in to account there is no guarantee of research success.........how the hell is invention supposed to compete with, or even threaten the T2 market?
As an example.....if I were to research a Stabber BPC to TRY and get a Vagabond BPC, each attempt will cost 80 mill in datacores. Add into the equation the 600 mill Cryptic Ship Data Interface (this is what they're selling for in contracts). Then the Stabber BPC.....I can make these myself. Finally a few 'original items'..... 1 x Stabber is 4.5 mill to build.
Where's the profit to be made? The T2 BPO holders must be laughing in their sleep these days. No more BPOs to compete with them, and the market balancer (invention) is about as balanced as Laurel & Hardey on a see-saw.
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Reagan
My skills
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.25 12:38:00 -
[2]
I totally agree. Invention is a waste of time. Theres no way it can compete with T2 BPO's. I'm guessing the Devs have T2 BPO's and don't want the competition. Invention was an attempt to placate the rest of us.
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Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2007.03.25 12:46:00 -
[3]
I think the idea with Invention is not to replace the T2 BPOs, but to give people the ability to make any T2 item they put in effort for. This way there can't really be any big T2 cartels, and any T2 item's price will be regulated by the ease of its invention. Hulks, for example, may well drop in price as more people get in on the action.
T2 supply can then keep up with a growing playerbase.
Give it time for things to settle, invention is new and the market will fluctuate in time.
__________
If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
Martosh Toma
Gallente
Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2007.03.25 12:51:00 -
[4]
assuming 50% chance of success
assuming you are willing to do 600 tries to make back the isk on the interface
each 2 invention runs will get you a 5 run vaga bpc
cost per 2 runs
160M in datacores
9M in stabbers
200M in production cost for 5 vagabonds
2M interface cost (2 of the 600 tries)
2M BPC cost (who knows you could have been selling or buying the bpc)
decripter cost (+4 runs, no clue how much it is lets suggest 77M isk)
total cost for 5 Vaga is 450M isk or a grand total of 90M production cost for each vaga
of course that is never going to compete with the bpo, but it sure sounds like a decent profit. And that at only a fraction of the cost of a vaga bpo.
Besides datacore costs are expected to drop further.
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Elgar Lightfoot
Lightfoot Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.25 12:54:00 -
[5]
It costs you about the market price of a Hulk to invent one (500 mil), and thats if you are lucky with the 25% chance. Remember that market price is massively inflated already by the T2 cartels.
Theres no way the price will come down through inventiuon when the costs are higher than with the T2 BPO's.
A 25% chance for invention is not bad IF the resulting BPC were of equivalent or better quality than the BPO. Then again a 25% chance means on average you can multiply the end cost by 4 for a Hulk through invention over one from a BPO.
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AcheLone
Caldari
Sole Survivor Agency
Commonwealth Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.25 13:13:00 -
[6]
I can only to minimize the cost for invention is to get all the datacores and interface yourself. This need lots of sacrifice and training especially to in your science skill.
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Amy Small
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Posted - 2007.03.25 13:16:00 -
[7]
Invention is currently fine, do not make it any easier!
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twit brent
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.03.25 13:16:00 -
[8]
The interface is a one time purchase thing. If your in a corp you can buy one for the corp, all you need it for is to start the invention job and it cant be used up. So once you have that invention does becaome alot cheaper. When I invented a zealot I got a 5 run BPC out of it which i sold for arround 350 mill.
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Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
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Posted - 2007.03.25 13:24:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Gamer4liff on 25/03/2007 13:21:02
Hay guys after datacore prices tank post lottery invention will cost a lot less. Also Invention can easily make a profit on the highest priced things, I.E. Hulks.
Also read the devblog regarding invention, they are well aware of the situation.
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Krugerrand
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.03.25 13:27:00 -
[10]
Funny, lots of people seem to be doing well off invention.
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Jarjar
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.03.25 13:32:00 -
[11]
Disclaimer: I know nothing about invention. I do know that the datacore market is crashing, though.
Bring up the market, preferably in The Forge. Go to Price History, set it to "month" and show the graph.
Then search for "datacore - " and look at the prices...
A few examples.
Amarrian Starship Engineering - From 2M to 290k this month
Caldari - From 3M to 400k
...
Electronic Engineering - From 11.5M to 1.2M
High Energy Physics - 19M to 1.7M
Getting the picture? They're going down, fast.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.03.25 13:39:00 -
[12]
 Originally by: Brutor Shaun
Can someone please tell me if I'm missing something:-
After sitting and going through the market in several regions, pricing up datacores etc, looking at the time and isk required, and taking in to account there is no guarantee of research success.........how the hell is invention supposed to compete with, or even threaten the T2 market?
As an example.....if I were to research a Stabber BPC to TRY and get a Vagabond BPC, each attempt will cost 80 mill in datacores. Add into the equation the 600 mill Cryptic Ship Data Interface (this is what they're selling for in contracts). Then the Stabber BPC.....I can make these myself. Finally a few 'original items'..... 1 x Stabber is 4.5 mill to build.
Where's the profit to be made? The T2 BPO holders must be laughing in their sleep these days. No more BPOs to compete with them, and the market balancer (invention) is about as balanced as Laurel & Hardey on a see-saw.
Invention will compete with Lottery in the aspects that when you actively try to get a BPC, there IS a chance, but for lottery, you can have hundreds of thousands of Research Points, but never win at all!
Also, you dont have to buy datacores!!! Why dont you do as every other researcher do? Save RP and buy datacores from your local agent?? If you choose to buy them at the market, its your own fault, and not the invention!
As soon, all the BPOs have been released, I will use all my saved/earned RP to buy datacores with! I wont almost spend 1 isk on it! THAT is research! THAT is how this trade should work!
Invention increases your chance for a T2 BPC. If you bring your brain!
Originally by: Eldo Davip
PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT.
WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
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slothe
Caldari
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.03.25 15:01:00 -
[13]
Edited by: slothe on 25/03/2007 14:57:51
as i see it..
invention is for 2 purposes
1. to enable researchers with thousands of rp to invent items using them for no cost (except skill + datacore)
2. to make things there is no t2 bpo for
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.25 15:08:00 -
[14]
Invention is generally a good idea.
It will rise to its full potential once t2 BPOs have been converted into limited run BPCs.
And please no whiners now. CCP keeps on changing a lot of things for game balance and improvement. The change of t2 BPOs into t2 BPCs has to come and I am certain will come.
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Eridicus
Deadworlds Reclamation Inc
Ice Storm Allliance
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Posted - 2007.03.25 15:31:00 -
[15]
T2 BPOs aren't going to be removed. You're fooling yourselves if you think so. Removing T2 BPOs will simply drive all T2 costs through the roof leading to datacore cartels buying up every datacore and decrypter that hits the market and vastly overpricing stuff even more.
However, Datacores will become more common place as the Devs have already stated in their blogs. The Mission change is going to introduce a large number of datacores dropping the datacore price even further.
At that point, the T2 costs will come down even further.
As for the OP, why are you calculating in the Cryptic Ship Data Interface as a disposable item in your example? It doesn't go away and can be reused or sold again. In addition, ship invention isn't the hottest at the moment.
T2 prices are going down on many of the key modules, so it is indeed having an affect.
Once the missions are in and you can mission up datacores, you'll be able to do a mission, get the datacores for a ship set, burn off a few ships and continue on your way.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2007.03.25 15:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Eridicus
Removing T2 BPOs will simply drive all T2 costs through the roof leading to datacore cartels buying up every datacore and decrypter that hits the market and vastly overpricing stuff even more.
That's the typical argument. Right now the danger of this happening is much higher than it will be once t2 BPOs have finally been converted into t2 BPCs. Think about it.
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Ky Vatta
Caldari
Empire Mining and Industrial Taskforce
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Posted - 2007.03.25 15:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: slothe
Edited by: slothe on 25/03/2007 14:57:51
as i see it..
invention is for 2 purposes
1. to enable researchers with thousands of rp to invent items using them for no cost (except skill + datacore)
2. to make things there is no t2 bpo for
 You try that last part...you`ll find you don`t get the option to use Invention on anything that does not exist in Tech II version yet...
---
CEO
Self-confessed Carebear, and proud of it |
Won Swunglow
Caldari
Dead By Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.25 16:19:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Won Swunglow on 25/03/2007 16:16:58
Originally by: Ky Vatta
Originally by: slothe
Edited by: slothe on 25/03/2007 14:57:51
as i see it..
invention is for 2 purposes
1. to enable researchers with thousands of rp to invent items using them for no cost (except skill + datacore)
2. to make things there is no t2 bpo for
You try that last part...you`ll find you don`t get the option to use Invention on anything that does not exist in Tech II version yet...
t2 nano's, t2 reinforced bulkheads ( yes someone actually invented them LOL), t2 cap flux coils, t2 cap power relays, t2 inertail stabs, t2 webbers, ect... there are no bpo's for these as far as i'm aware, but they can still be invented... there are also lots and lots of other t1 items that have no t2 varient, just check out the market 
Personally i'm gonna try for t2 passive targeters that i can then sell to bob...
--
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar
Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.25 16:39:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Eridicus
As for the OP, why are you calculating in the Cryptic Ship Data Interface as a disposable item in your example?
I'm not, but for the research to be viable it's a 'must have'. To recoup the isk spent would take alot of sales if you didn't want to sell it on.
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Reagan
My skills
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.03.25 17:07:00 -
[20]
Invention will always take a backseat to the BPO owners.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.03.25 17:08:00 -
[21]
I'm all for invention if it means you invent BPCs and then very rarely invents a BPO. Much like the lottery but more interactive. Hanging on the agents doorstep shopping datacores like a twobit cr@ck***** for BPCs isn't my idea of a fun time.
Also Known As |
Ranger 1
Amarr
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.03.25 17:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Eridicus
Removing T2 BPOs will simply drive all T2 costs through the roof leading to datacore cartels buying up every datacore and decrypter that hits the market and vastly overpricing stuff even more.
That's the typical argument. Right now the danger of this happening is much higher than it will be once t2 BPOs have finally been converted into t2 BPCs. Think about it.
Most of us HAVE thought about it, rather than having a knee jerk reaction to the existance of BPO's.
But, just for the sake of argument, could you please give us a reference to the Dev Blog that says T2 BPO's will be converted into BPC's.
No? Hmmm, thats what I thought.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.25 17:27:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 25/03/2007 17:24:13
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Eridicus
Removing T2 BPOs will simply drive all T2 costs through the roof leading to datacore cartels buying up every datacore and decrypter that hits the market and vastly overpricing stuff even more.
That's the typical argument. Right now the danger of this happening is much higher than it will be once t2 BPOs have finally been converted into t2 BPCs. Think about it.
However it is put, removing t2 bpo's will reduce supply. Reduced supply = Higher costs. Invented BPC's will always have to cost more to produce than a "free" bpo.
So I beleive that t2 bpo's will stay ingame forever, as removing them is stupid. I also think that invention is still pre-nerfed, and with time, pretty much everything can be built from invention at 100% build cost.
Invention may be expensive today, but I reckon it will be a lot cheaper as drop rates increase.
But what do I Care? I sold off my bpo for 4 years constant production profit so lets see how things go 
--
In Internet Explorer, You keep tabs on your browser. In Soviet Russia, browser keeps tabs on you |
Selena 001
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Posted - 2007.03.25 17:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
... the market balancer (invention) is about as balanced as Laurel & Hardey on a see-saw.
I fully agree with this thread, because this made me laugh 
___________
NATIONAL SARCASM DAY!! |
Brutor Shaun
Minmatar
Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.25 17:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
I beleive that t2 bpo's will stay ingame forever, as removing them is stupid.
So, what's going to happen if one gets destroyed? There's no lottery to replace it!
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Reagan
My skills
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.03.25 18:42:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 25/03/2007 18:40:56
Kind of sad - this entire thread - with the exception of a few oneliners - contains total rubbish.
1. When people pay 6m for Mech eng Datacores (i do sometimes), and you get them from your agent "for free", they are still worth roughly 6m each.
If you disagree, please start mining, i need pyerite, and lots of it.
2. Invention was insanely profitable the day it was released (the most profitable activity that has ever existed in eve with the only exception of winning the tournament 3 times in a row and selling State Ravens to Entity for 60b each). It is currently very profitable. It wont be very profitable soon. It wont be worth it longterm (up until t3 or other major changes).
3. CCP didnt "fix" invention, they nerfed it. What CCP fixed were t2 mod / BPO prices.
4. Before the latest patch (when Datacores sold for 20m+), the profit about "invention" wasnt in the actual invention process, but in the Datacores. Having research agents was incredibly profitable. Now its a lot less profitable (but more conveniant, 4000 DCs per purchase helped a lot) to have research agents, and the profit moved into copy slots and plain manual labor (logging in every 75 minutes to make lots of clicks setting 10 invention runs).
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar
Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.25 18:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Invention was insanely profitable the day it was released
Erm.....no it wasn't. It didn't even work properly.
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Before the latest patch (when Datacores sold for 20m+), the profit about "invention" wasnt in the actual invention process, but in the Datacores.
So, invention wasn't profitable then......R+D was.
"Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Reagan
My skills
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.03.25 19:17:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 25/03/2007 19:18:28
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 25/03/2007 19:15:05
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
Erm.....no it wasn't. It didn't even work properly.
Everybody lied because it was THAT profitable. More profitable then 10/10 complexes or bugged overseer respawns.
Also see my edit of the above post.
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Allen Deckard
Gallente
WTB Supplies
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Posted - 2007.03.25 19:57:00 -
[29]
well soon as their is no posibility of getting a t2 bpo from lottery I will be cashing in on my 3 years of rp's as their will be no use for them.
With that said i doubt I will be the only one.
Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free |
Nova Fox
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Posted - 2007.03.25 20:12:00 -
[30]
Well look at this way all those Tech 2 bpo cartels are going to get assed out when a fully trained scientist starts inventing tech 3 items that the cartels are never going to get a bpo for and if they dont have the skills to be training for that stuff theyll never invent it.
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Fight the bunnies!
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