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Slavery - Is it really immoral?

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Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.26 03:57:00 - [1] How many Billions of people are there in the Gallente prison system? Prisons are just crude apartment complexes with weight rooms. What if we offered low-risk prisoners to the general public as slaves to serve out their sentences? I mean why not take convicts, teach them how to weld, and set them to work at Roden Shipyards for no pay, so when they get out, they actually have job skills. Isn't that rehabilitation? Where's the rehabilitation in having someone sit in a cell for X number of years? Discuss.
Diicc Tater Aggressive Tendencies	Posted - 2007.03.26 07:10:00 - [2] Since when are slaves criminlas by default? What a twisted mind.... Hard labour camps for criminals, ok, but it is not for the innocent. Sticks and stones will break my bones but whips and chains excite me!
Jacob Tiberian	Posted - 2007.03.26 07:33:00 - [3] I can see your point, however it might be a bit of a hard sell to get someone to buy a criminal for X years and bring them into their homes. However how about submiting those criminals sentenced to death for medical experimentation? They are going to die anyway, might as well let me experiment with my genetic manipulation first. Jacob Tiberian
Darina Rea Renua Foundation	Posted - 2007.03.26 07:35:00 - [4] The problem with slavery doesn't lie with the slaves. It lies with those who manage the slaves. or more precise, those who abuse the fact that a slave is basicly without any protection except for what the owner is granting the slave. Which comes down to none what so ever. What you are suggesting is all nice and dandy, however, putting a blow torch in the hands of a harderened criminal and tell him to help construct me a ship? I know I'm not going to fly whatever that guy worked on... Not because he can't do it, but because he's a criminal. You can't trust them you know. Which is basicly the main problem of putting them to work for the common good. What job would you have a thief do? Help man the register at a shop? Now there's an invitation to steal... What job would you have a conman do? Help in the sales department? Sure your sale might rise, but I assure you the complaints will aswell. The rehabilitation of prison cells isn't to safe guard the population from criminals. It's a subtle hint to criminals "If you don't behave you'll be stuck in this damn box for the rest of your natural life!". Ofcourse, sadly, most don't pick up the hint. _________ The cluster is full of mysteries, all that is needed is the will to find and unravel them. Time is on our side.
Tenaka Kahn Minmatar Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.03.26 08:46:00 - [5] I don't like your tone mister. And wheres my powdered milks?
Alexi Borizkova Caldari New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.03.26 08:49:00 - [6] The question is flawed, in that it assumes that there is a definitive answer to itself. "Morality" is subjective. What one man considers just, another man calls unjust, what one thinks of as right, another sees as wrong. There is no absolute right or wrong in this universe, just our perception of it. To the amarr, their enslaving other "lesser" races is an act of piety, of faith, and of humanitarianism. They honestly believe they are saving these peoples immortal souls by the process. Can it truly be said they are immoral, when they go to such great lengths to carry out what they feel is their holy duty? Slavery is perhaps the single least efficient method of securing a productive workforce, prone to resistanc,e and breaking down, and stifling creativity, as well as artificially limiting the upward progress of worthy individuals from the lower castes of society. That they take the burden of such an archaic system onto their shoulders shows that they truly believe what they are doing is for the betterment of their slaves, otherwise they would not use such an inefficient system. As for prisoners, they should fall into two classes: those who can be rehabilitated tfunction inside of and enrich society, and those who cannot be, and must be destroyed or removed from society of its own good. For the former, indenture programs and reeducation programs can help return them to productive society after having paid their debt. For the latter, even in their dangerous state they may be made to serve the needs and work for hte betterment of their society. Why coldly end a life, when their service in dangerous areas can not only benefit their nation but also serve to take decent productive members of society out of harm's way. Even in death, their tissues may be used to save the lives of those too poor to afford custom cloned organs, a primitive but effective way to do some good. Interring prisoners for punitive reasons is illogical and unjust, as is killing all but the most dangerous of criminals. It makes no sense to have thousands, millions, perhaps billions of healthy men and women languishing in a cage, leeching from society when they could be working to better it, and to better themselves. With proper behavioural reconditionin and monitoring implants, all but the most hardened or unstable criminals may once again function with society. How could this be considered to be more immoral than locking up human beings in tiny cages and leaving them alone, unproductive, to rot.
Molovian Twilight Minmatar	Posted - 2007.03.26 11:53:00 - [7] Are we sure the slaves really want to be free. Prisoners often recommit crimes to go back to jail so they don't have to do X in the universe. I don't support slavery, of one race to another, but has anyone asked the slaves if they want to be rescued? Are you sure you know the whole story, or do you base your actions on some other form of belief?
fedor345 Caldari FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.26 14:47:00 - [8] what i find is that there are slaves wich are completly innocent, women and children, they would be far better off with me for example
Kimochi Rendar	Posted - 2007.03.26 15:23:00 - [9] My 'slaves' are well looked after. They are fed well, and are given comfortable quarters. They are paid a fair sum for their work, and are allowed to mate with whom they choose. They are even allowed to leave, should they wish it. Yes I have been ridiculed by my peers for this, however I have never had a single mutiny. It allows for much safer and smoother running of my ship. Despite this though, some still choose to call me 'Slaver'. Why? Can the lives my crew live truely be called slavery when they are treated as well as they are?
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.26 15:42:00 - [10] Quote: How many Billions of people are there in the Gallente prison system? Prisons are just crude apartment complexes with weight rooms. What if we offered low-risk prisoners to the general public as slaves to serve out their sentences? I mean why not take convicts, teach them how to weld, and set them to work at Roden Shipyards for no pay, so when they get out, they actually have job skills. Isn't that rehabilitation? Where's the rehabilitation in having someone sit in a cell for X number of years? Discuss. You begin to understand. All Amarrian slaves are convicted under fair and just Amarrian Law of crimes of a capital nature. This is what separates them from the unlucky people enslaved by the twisted pirates of the fringe. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Darina Rea Renua Foundation	Posted - 2007.03.26 15:52:00 - [11] Edited by: Darina Rea on 26/03/2007 15:49:31 Not to disrupt the gloating, but all Amarrian slaves? I thought that the larger part was just bred in slave pens, well, or bought from said twisted pirates, many of whom are Amarr. -edit corrected typoes here and there _________ The cluster is full of mysteries, all that is needed is the will to find and unravel them. Time is on our side.
Agustus Caesar Minmatar Caesar and Sons Salvaging	Posted - 2007.03.26 16:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Darina Rea Edited by: Darina Rea on 26/03/2007 15:49:31 Not to disrupt the gloating, but all Amarrian slaves? I thought that the larger part was just bred in slave pens, well, or bought from said twisted pirates, many of whom are Amarr. -edit corrected typoes here and there Under Amarrian law, not being born Amarrian is a capital offense; the total lack of logic behind this is fairly obvious, but the same can be said for much of Imperial society. ----------------------------- "Our nation, may she always be right, but our nation right or wrong" - Unknown
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.27 03:43:00 - [13] Let me clarify, I'm only talking about people who are in prison for actually having done something wrong, not those who are "guilty" of being born a Minmatar. You can't control which womb you come out of, there is no crime committed for being born to a particular family. My target audience for discussion here is reasonable, intelligent beings, not brainwashed religious freaks who can't see the forest for the trees. Originally by: Darina Rea The problem with slavery doesn't lie with the slaves. It lies with those who manage the slaves. or more precise, those who abuse the fact that a slave is basicly without any protection except for what the owner is granting the slave. Which comes down to none what so ever. What you are suggesting is all nice and dandy, however, putting a blow torch in the hands of a harderened criminal and tell him to help construct me a ship? I know I'm not going to fly whatever that guy worked on... Not because he can't do it, but because he's a criminal. You can't trust them you know. Which is basicly the main problem of putting them to work for the common good. What job would you have a thief do? Help man the register at a shop? Now there's an invitation to steal... What job would you have a conman do? Help in the sales department? Sure your sale might rise, but I assure you the complaints will aswell. Yeah I see your point. What if we made it some kind of work-release program? Make it a reward for good behavior or something. But yeah you're right, theres probably too much potential for inmate abuse. Originally by: Tenaka Kahn I don't like your tone mister. And wheres my powdered milks? Originally by: Alexi Borizkova It makes no sense to have thousands, millions, perhaps billions of healthy men and women languishing in a cage, leeching from society when they could be working to better it, and to better themselves. Absolutely. Originally by: Molovian Twilight Are we sure the slaves really want to be free. Irrelevant. Human beings are adaptable to any condition, if I held you in slavery from birth, it would seem perfectly normal to you. Human beings are social creatures, we have a stake in how other humans are treated. If I see some guy drowning I can't just turn around and say "Oh well, its not me." Its not you drowning but it easily could be you. Thats why theres a social contract that if you see someone drowning you try to help them, because next time it might be you drowning. This is also why Slavery is an issue that concerns the whole universe. If it can happen to somebody else, it can happen to you too.
Chishan Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.27 06:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Cipher7 How many Billions of people are there in the Gallente prison system? Prisons are just crude apartment complexes with weight rooms. What if we offered low-risk prisoners to the general public as slaves to serve out their sentences? I mean why not take convicts, teach them how to weld, and set them to work at Roden Shipyards for no pay, so when they get out, they actually have job skills. Isn't that rehabilitation? Where's the rehabilitation in having someone sit in a cell for X number of years? Discuss. I don't know much about rehabilitation, but redemption is something I'm learning. There is no redemption to be found in turning someone into a slave or locking them in a cage. Redemption is usually found by those who seek it, although sometimes the verse can conspire against the wayward and lost, placing them on the shining path. In slavery, in becoming property, the will is removed. Without the will, you cannot seek. You live at your masters pleasure, whether it's scripture, hard labor, or deviancy. The only hope of the enslaved is the prayers of their ancestors.
fedor345 Caldari FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 13:59:00 - [15] the idea of prison is to have people that have done crimes be put to punishment and remake them into people fit for society the idea of slaves is to have people for cheap labor, that usualy includes bad treatment(not all the time) i find that that is a big difrence
Barbaro55a	Posted - 2007.03.27 14:54:00 - [16] Their should be only one punishment for all crimes, Death By firing squad. I would like to take this opportunity to volunteer the services of my 150mm cannons for the task.
Sokra Zatah Zatah Holdings	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:14:00 - [17] Edited by: Sokra Zatah on 27/03/2007 15:10:44 Originally by: Chishan In slavery, in becoming property, the will is removed. Without the will, you cannot seek. You live at your masters pleasure, whether it's scripture, hard labor, or deviancy. The only hope of the enslaved is the prayers of their ancestors. The degenorate genes and teachings of the heathen bloodline have warped your reality. One day you, like the rest of your sub-human bretheren will realise that slavery is simply part of the process, a vital step to embracing our lord, and one of the early steps of true enlightenment. An inferior, rabble filled race such as the Minmatar require a guiding light, and a driving force to achieve their true destiny as servants of the Empire, and the one true faith. In time the divine hand will touch you all, some of you with force, to bring you into the service of the lord. Release yourself from your cradle of filth, child. Embrace the faith and realise the sole reason for your existance is to serve our holy father, under the command of a true Amarr.
Darth Sage Amarr En-Slavers	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:43:00 - [18] of course slavery is not criminal might as well say Omir Sarikusa is a criminal and not a saint, I would recommend taking the over crowded prisons and offering up the blood of said inmates to glory of the blood god so that we might maintain our immortality and feast in the blood gods honour with the flesh of their remains In The Name Of Omir Sarikusa We Claim Your Blood!
Chishan Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Sokra Zatah Edited by: Sokra Zatah on 27/03/2007 15:10:44 Originally by: Chishan In slavery, in becoming property, the will is removed. Without the will, you cannot seek. You live at your masters pleasure, whether it's scripture, hard labor, or deviancy. The only hope of the enslaved is the prayers of their ancestors. The degenorate genes and teachings of the heathen bloodline have warped your reality. One day you, like the rest of your sub-human bretheren will realise that slavery is simply part of the process, a vital step to embracing our lord, and one of the early steps of true enlightenment. An inferior, rabble filled race such as the Minmatar require a guiding light, and a driving force to achieve their true destiny as servants of the Empire, and the one true faith. In time the divine hand will touch you all, some of you with force, to bring you into the service of the lord. Release yourself from your cradle of filth, child. Embrace the faith and realise the sole reason for your existance is to serve our holy father, under the command of a true Amarr. I've read your Pax Amarria. I've heard the sermons from CVA's best. You Amarr, so arrogant and childish to believe the ineffable could be contained in words, bound to a page. This itself is trying to enslave the very god you claim. I was brought before The Mother by my Mother. I have seen the line of my ancestry, it is long and my branch is rooted in the blood of your people. I will not defile my ancestors by trying to give you some kind of vulgar description or passages from some dead book written by a dead person. I can tell you this, though. Pain is not my master. Death is not my master. You are not my master.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:20:00 - [20] In the infinite wisdom of Amarr intelligentcia, Faith can be harnessed into a book, mass produced and shipped for consumption like Quafe.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:30:00 - [21] You heathens are all the same. "Oh I read that book, I understand your culture." It is one book, hardly an accomplishment to have read it, and it is not even a part of the scriptures. You know nothing about Amarr, Chishan, other than your own irrational hate of it. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Wren Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 28/03/2007 15:27:27 You heathens are all the same. "Oh I read that book, I understand your culture." It is one book, hardly an accomplishment to have read it, and it is not even a part of the scriptures. Treating a proposal on how to live in peace with the universe as if it was some sort of scripture to Amarr just shows your ignorance. You know nothing about Amarr, Chishan, other than your own irrational hate of it. Meh, I tend to hate a society who makes my brothers into mindless flesh drones with implants, sics genetically bred monsters on my sisters, and beats my children until they are dead for simply being dirty. Might be just me though, don't know. ----------------------------------- Wren says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT!"
Crinos Childflayer	Posted - 2007.03.28 18:20:00 - [23] I provided my slaves with a utopia. They get everything they need. Go-Gruel: For that slave on the go! Tiny quarters: Too much space induces creativity and imagination! Extra tough labor: Because it's more plausible when you threaten to kill them if they've already been worked half way there! Did I mention.... EXTRA Beatings: Why just beat them when they've done something wrong? they probably did something you didn't see, or just to keep them on thier toes. Castration: Not even gonna talk about this one. Genetic manipu.....uh.....FREE MEDICAL! And, all the Grapples you can eat! Join now!!! "The flesh slipped from between his fingers. The blood pooled all around him. This was the beginning." -The Beginning of The End
Darth Sage En-Slavers	Posted - 2007.03.28 18:26:00 - [24] crinos childflayer i to provide theose worthy of re-education with what they need... shock ring worn around the neck chains 5 by 5 foot cage water meat products made from out own factories teaching of how to be a good slave regular beating In The Name Of Omir Sarikusa We Claim Your Blood!
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.29 02:02:00 - [25] No, slavery is not immoral. You can kill your slave because you broke a nail getting out of bed this morning, that's okay. Nothing wrong with it, after all, slavery is better than killing an entire race for being born. Right? Vreena ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Nachshon Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.03.31 01:09:00 - [26] Slavery is immoral because it reduces a person to mere property. Simple as that. ___ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom of Freedom
Vlad Cetes Caldari Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.03.31 02:19:00 - [27] In the Amarrian sense slavery offers a person who would die a chance to live and be productive and an slight glimmer of hope to work their way out of their station in life. Wouldn't you agree the the act of Mercy is one of the most moral a man can do? Prisoners are the same, they can either become productive and work or simply eliminated by the most effecient means possible. This sig is secured by Chuck Norris. Don't mess with the man!
fedor345 Caldari FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.31 07:52:00 - [28] just torture them until they turn good
Nachshon Caldari Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.03.31 19:14:00 - [29] Then treat your slaves like human beings. How? Do not sell them. You sell things, not people. ___ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom of Freedom
MirrorGod	Posted - 2007.03.31 20:36:00 - [30] This would be a valid argument, slaving pig, were it not for the simple fact that those you enslave are not criminals, but in fact, they are abducted. Prisoners, yes, to the empires oppression, but the only criminals are the slavers. Signature graphics must be within 400wx120h pixels and 24000 bytes or less. -Suvetar

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