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Cruise or Torps ?

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Commodore Yan	Posted - 2007.03.26 15:19:00 - [1] Hi, I have been using heavy missiles on my Raven up to now. I think that I will step up to either cruise or torps next. Preference please, and reasons if possible. Thanks
iudex Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.26 15:35:00 - [2] Why did you do that ? A drake does more damage with heavys than a raven . My suggestion: Cruise Missiles if you are going for missions/ratting only. Torps if you are going for pvp. Torps if you are going for dreadnoughts/titans later (as you'll need torp 5 for the phoenix e.g.). Trops for more damage, Cruises for more flexibility (range, precision (vs smaller and faster ships), f.o.f ability etc.) + better tank (caus of more cpu left + more medslots as you don't need target painters). All in all i'd say it's up to your taste what to go for. L...i...b...e...r...a...t...e.........C...a...l...d...a...r...i........P...r...i...m...e.!
Thanos Firebringer Kings of Kill	Posted - 2007.03.26 15:40:00 - [3] Since this is in the mission forum, I'd say get cruise for sure. Like the above poster stated, they are more versatile. You can kill approaching frigs for good damage and still do very well vs. BS. Only time I use torps in missions are if i'm w/ a friend in another raven using cruise. If frigs get in close and start orbiting, use your small drones on them and switch to a larger target. And OMG, get those heavies off your raven. If you like/want to use heavies, get a drake or go for a nighthawk/cerberus. ----------------------------------------- Pimpin' hoes and slammin' cadillac doors...... ZYDRINE ON MY NECK, ZY-ZYDRINE ON MY NECK.....
Traak CompleXion Industries	Posted - 2007.03.26 15:54:00 - [4] Most (not all) raven pilots use cruise missiles for the majority of the time. Train cruise missiles first. Torps are a nice to have when fighting BSs, but otherwise not that useful. Once you get into cruise, torps are barely any training too. Cruise missiles can still rip through a battleship, so you won't find yourself in trouble with cruise only. Get cruise missiles and use that as your standard. Then train torps as a "specialized" ammo for specific situations. And as was said above... get those heavies of your raven! __________ Traak
Roy Gordon Caldari The Star Wolves	Posted - 2007.03.26 16:05:00 - [5] I'd say it all depends on the mission. Most missions you can get away with just using cruise, but, missions like lvl 4 'The Assault' take too long to do if you dont use a combination of cruise and torp launchers as there are so many rat battleships and two of them tank hard. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.26 16:09:00 - [6] In fact it is a simple issue of money. In a T1 or T2 Raven, use cruise for sure. But once you have that gist XL shield booster, you can afford to fit two target painters in the meds, and suddenly torpedos are much better than cruise missiles as long as there is not more than 40 cruisers per battleship in a mission. So pretty much in all lvl4s. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Egil Kolsto Caldari Collwood Collective	Posted - 2007.03.26 16:24:00 - [7] LOL, slightly comical take on this: With the current lag in Saila, go for Cruise as you fir 27 in the magazine, not 18 as with Torp=P All jokes aside, what Leandro said is very true. Lowend Isk-wise the Cruise offer a better payload. When you get into the highend tanks the mid slots are down to 3 for hardeners and you can afford 2x Painters. Not sure how you can live without an AB with all that travel time there is now Leandro, but thats your call I guess. With 5s I can't afford to use a crystal set so my tank is getting very marginal for Angel bonus. Not sure how you pull that one off with Torps, maybe you have 2x Officer Invulnv as well?
Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.26 16:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Egil Kolsto LOL, slightly comical take on this: With the current lag in Saila, go for Cruise as you fir 27 in the magazine, not 18 as with Torp=P All jokes aside, what Leandro said is very true. Lowend Isk-wise the Cruise offer a better payload. When you get into the highend tanks the mid slots are down to 3 for hardeners and you can afford 2x Painters. Not sure how you can live without an AB with all that travel time there is now Leandro, but thats your call I guess. With 5s I can't afford to use a crystal set so my tank is getting very marginal for Angel bonus. Not sure how you pull that one off with Torps, maybe you have 2x Officer Invulnv as well? Well I tend to not run the missions that have long gate treks because I am an efficiency ***** and most of those missions have bad isk/time. So no need for an AB. And yes of course I have two good invuls. Only DG ones, not officer, but they do the job. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Egil Kolsto Caldari Collwood Collective	Posted - 2007.03.26 16:43:00 - [9] Well, the one major argument for Cruise that everyone seems to overlook is the lack of FOF Torpedos=P When the jamming hit, or when the lagmonster eats you, level V FoF Cruise have base 282.50 Dmg versus the 300 base damage of cruise. With the un-playability of Saila, I am very tempted to skill this up and see how it goes. My last mission was 8 minutes to complete and 7 minutes to try to get the cargo into the hold. With Gist x + dual DG Invulnv, I struggled on Angel Bonus Leandro. Maybe I'll try convo you in-game again and see if I can get some pointers. Until I sort out my tank, not trying torps:)
Commodore Yan	Posted - 2007.03.26 16:50:00 - [10] Thanks for the replies. I shall carry on training cruise, level 3 atm, I always have FOF heavies in cargohold in the event of jamming etc... I shall look at the cost of launchers tonight and see if I can afford arbies ... can't wait to use them TY again

Minnie Trader	Posted - 2007.03.27 02:01:00 - [11] In case you're still reading: I've been experimenting with a mix of cruises AND torps at the same time. Mixing ranges does sound like a terrible idea, until you realize you don't HAVE to do it. Pretend you only have torp range, and hold off on firing until you see the whites of their eyes. This seems to work because 1. torps are slow moving, and can take multiple defender missile hits. So they 'tank' while faster cruises 'gank.' 2. I have plenty of powergrid left over for other things and 3. cruises work nicely vs. the cruisers and BCs, while the extra DPS from torps is very nice on BSes. I've used 3 and 3, 2 and 4, and 4 and 2 cruise/torps, depending on the mission. I like it much better than pure cruises or pure torps.
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.03.27 07:49:00 - [12] I've timed myself on missions with Javelin Torps and cruise missiles. Angel extravaganza: 1 hour 39 minutes with torpedos, 2 hours 12 minutes with cruise guistas extravaganza (plus bonus room): 1 hour 42 minutes with torpedos, 1 hour 58 minutes with cruise. The assault: 42 minutes with torpedos, 1 hour 2 mins with cruise. Cruise missile 4, torpedo specialisation 4 (that only slightly increases refire rate). All other missile skills at 4 or 5. Torpedos for the win :) Any frigs that come close I usually tank until the entire stage is aggressed then I just release my drones on them and get back to killing battships. Once there's only cruisers and frigs left (even 20 or 30) I'll go browse some forums whilst alt-tabbing every so often to pick off another cruise (2 torps per cruiser, 3 under attack at once) and leave the drones to wonder around killing things. I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot.
Capt Drakkorr Minmatar BloodThirsters Corp	Posted - 2007.03.27 11:36:00 - [13] Torps PvP Cruise Missions You can use torps in missions no prob however i would take t2 drones to deal with the frigs otherwise you wont touch them God gave you rock n roll but ill give you a torp on your tail
Kaptein Trefot	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:08:00 - [14] Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 27/03/2007 15:06:24 Originally by: Ralara I've timed myself on missions with Javelin Torps and cruise missiles. Angel extravaganza: 1 hour 39 minutes with torpedos, 2 hours 12 minutes with cruise guistas extravaganza (plus bonus room): 1 hour 42 minutes with torpedos, 1 hour 58 minutes with cruise. The assault: 42 minutes with torpedos, 1 hour 2 mins with cruise. Cruise missile 4, torpedo specialisation 4 (that only slightly increases refire rate). All other missile skills at 4 or 5. Torpedos for the win :) Any frigs that come close I usually tank until the entire stage is aggressed then I just release my drones on them and get back to killing battships. Once there's only cruisers and frigs left (even 20 or 30) I'll go browse some forums whilst alt-tabbing every so often to pick off another cruise (2 torps per cruiser, 3 under attack at once) and leave the drones to wonder around killing things. Over 2 hours on angel X with cruise missiles, are you insane? With cruise IV and missile support to IV you can do that mission under an hour with arbalest cruise launchers and I do it now (tho in a cnr) in under 40 min with DG launchers. And I find it very strange that you can do guristas X faster than angel X. Never heard of anyone being able to do that before, tho you can finish that with a dg-cruise missile launching cnr within an hour bonus room included. In my experience cruise missiles are much more effective than torps.
Jilly Serkov	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:33:00 - [15] Originally by: Egil Kolsto Well, the one major argument for Cruise that everyone seems to overlook is the lack of FOF Torpedos=P Not me That and range cruise can fly to, cost, ease to fit 6 similar launchers, ... The only downside in PvE is their vulnerability to NPC defenders. Then again, if it wasn't for that cruise would be obscenely overpowered in PvE. Oh and to all the Gist X XL-shield booster users out there - are you able to run that full time ? If not, wouldn't it be a downer if you went to hit the activate button just as the game lags out for 3 minutes ? Surely a sustainable tank is better ?
Kaptein Trefot	Posted - 2007.03.27 15:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Jilly Serkov Oh and to all the Gist X XL-shield booster users out there - are you able to run that full time ? If not, wouldn't it be a downer if you went to hit the activate button just as the game lags out for 3 minutes ? Surely a sustainable tank is better ? With 3 CCC rigs and a tech II recharger in mid you can permarun gist xl-boosters - 3 BCUs in low included.
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Jilly Serkov Oh and to all the Gist X XL-shield booster users out there - are you able to run that full time ? If not, wouldn't it be a downer if you went to hit the activate button just as the game lags out for 3 minutes ? Surely a sustainable tank is better ? I have 3 CCC rigs, a tech 2 cap charger, 3 PDS, 2 BCS, 3 hardners and run the XL gist booster permanently :) I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot.
Egil Kolsto Caldari Collwood Collective	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Jilly Serkov Oh and to all the Gist X XL-shield booster users out there - are you able to run that full time ? If not, wouldn't it be a downer if you went to hit the activate button just as the game lags out for 3 minutes ? Surely a sustainable tank is better ? Well, as you can easily see from the posts the perma-tank = lost efficiency. Yes, you can run the booster non-stop but that means you give up DPS. Personally, I prefer a tiny worry about lag if it is severe, along with the 20% better DPS, over zero worry about lag for the loss in DPS. I am running a Cruise ship and though not even close to record times do Gurista EA in roughly 1 hr and Angel EA in 1hr 20 (Structure takes a lot longer). Both with the bonus room off course.
Kaptein Trefot	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Egil Kolsto Originally by: Jilly Serkov Oh and to all the Gist X XL-shield booster users out there - are you able to run that full time ? If not, wouldn't it be a downer if you went to hit the activate button just as the game lags out for 3 minutes ? Surely a sustainable tank is better ? Well, as you can easily see from the posts the perma-tank = lost efficiency. Yes, you can run the booster non-stop but that means you give up DPS. Personally, I prefer a tiny worry about lag if it is severe, along with the 20% better DPS, over zero worry about lag for the loss in DPS. I am running a Cruise ship and though not even close to record times do Gurista EA in roughly 1 hr and Angel EA in 1hr 20 (Structure takes a lot longer). Both with the bonus room off course. 20% more dps on a cruise raven without a permaboost? I use a perma gist B xl booster and use 3 BCUs. I assume you use 5 BCUs in low?
Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 23:05:00 - [20] He was probably talking about a torp setup. My CNR using Domi Sieges (for low CPU use so I can fit missile velocity rigs) actually has 25% more DPS than a Dread Cruise CNR of equivalent skill and fitting would have (I will probably rip out one of the velo rigs for a CCC, allowing me to fit even more powerful launchers hopefully). That means it does better DPS against any targets that have roughly 170m base sig radius (This is using two target painters which is mandatory for efficient torp use). And especially against Battleships that additional damage means a whole lot. I did the math once in another thread, even with a low BS amount in the mission, the actual HPs that need to be killed are mainly the battleships, because they 1. Have disproportionally more base HP 2. Have higher resistances 3. Tank much harder. Using kinetic damage against them: The best Guristas Cruiser has effectively 5297 HP and tanks 13 HP/s. The worst Guristas Battleship has effectively 16416 HP and tanks 38 HP/s The best Guristas Bettleship has effectively 26319 HP and tanks 103 HP/s Assuming a lifetime of 1 minute (not realistic I know, just for comparison) we get: Guristas Eraser: 6077 HP Guristas Eradicator: 18696 HP Guristas Usurper: 32499 HP So you have 3-6 times the HP of a cruiser to kill in each BS. And torps are only marginally worse than cruise at killing those cruisers, while they are 25%+ better at killing battleships. The gist of my math was 40 cruisers per battleship to make cruise better than equivalent torps with two painters. And there are very few if any L4 missions that give you so few BS to kill. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari

Kaptein Trefot	Posted - 2007.03.28 00:12:00 - [21] Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 28/03/2007 00:10:00 Originally by: Leandro Salazar He was probably talking about a torp setup. My CNR using Domi Sieges (for low CPU use so I can fit missile velocity rigs) actually has 25% more DPS than a Dread Cruise CNR of equivalent skill and fitting would have (I will probably rip out one of the velo rigs for a CCC, allowing me to fit even more powerful launchers hopefully). That means it does better DPS against any targets that have roughly 170m base sig radius (This is using two target painters which is mandatory for efficient torp use). And especially against Battleships that additional damage means a whole lot. I did the math once in another thread, even with a low BS amount in the mission, the actual HPs that need to be killed are mainly the battleships, because they 1. Have disproportionally more base HP 2. Have higher resistances 3. Tank much harder. Using kinetic damage against them: The best Guristas Cruiser has effectively 5297 HP and tanks 13 HP/s. The worst Guristas Battleship has effectively 16416 HP and tanks 38 HP/s The best Guristas Bettleship has effectively 26319 HP and tanks 103 HP/s Assuming a lifetime of 1 minute (not realistic I know, just for comparison) we get: Guristas Eraser: 6077 HP Guristas Eradicator: 18696 HP Guristas Usurper: 32499 HP So you have 3-6 times the HP of a cruiser to kill in each BS. And torps are only marginally worse than cruise at killing those cruisers, while they are 25%+ better at killing battleships. The gist of my math was 40 cruisers per battleship to make cruise better than equivalent torps with two painters. And there are very few if any L4 missions that give you so few BS to kill. Alltho I havent done the math myself I just find it hard to believe. 25% more DPs means more than just 25% faster missions as the tank has less time to recharge. I do a mission like Angel X in 40 mins and I`ve read about ppl with extreme gank setups who do them in 32-33 mins or thereabout. With your calculations you should be able to do angel X in about 20 mins (rushing it without bonus) and that is faster then I have ever heard anyone run that mission solo. Guristas X should be over in 35-40 min killing all included bonus stage. Again I've never heard anyone being close to those times.
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.03.28 00:34:00 - [22] I swear by my torp and target painter combo. As it stands, we all seem to generally agree that torps are best vs BS. But where this is great is one volley one-shots a destroyer, two shots a BC and 3-5 shots a cruiser. Plus they work wonders vs those Dire/Arch/Whatever variants. As for frigs? Well,, non-t2 frigs are no trouble, and t2 ones are what drones are for.
Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:16:00 - [23] Originally by: Kaptein Trefot Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 28/03/2007 00:10:00 Originally by: Leandro Salazar He was probably talking about a torp setup. My CNR using Domi Sieges (for low CPU use so I can fit missile velocity rigs) actually has 25% more DPS than a Dread Cruise CNR of equivalent skill and fitting would have (I will probably rip out one of the velo rigs for a CCC, allowing me to fit even more powerful launchers hopefully). That means it does better DPS against any targets that have roughly 170m base sig radius (This is using two target painters which is mandatory for efficient torp use). And especially against Battleships that additional damage means a whole lot. I did the math once in another thread, even with a low BS amount in the mission, the actual HPs that need to be killed are mainly the battleships, because they 1. Have disproportionally more base HP 2. Have higher resistances 3. Tank much harder. Using kinetic damage against them: The best Guristas Cruiser has effectively 5297 HP and tanks 13 HP/s. The worst Guristas Battleship has effectively 16416 HP and tanks 38 HP/s The best Guristas Bettleship has effectively 26319 HP and tanks 103 HP/s Assuming a lifetime of 1 minute (not realistic I know, just for comparison) we get: Guristas Eraser: 6077 HP Guristas Eradicator: 18696 HP Guristas Usurper: 32499 HP So you have 3-6 times the HP of a cruiser to kill in each BS. And torps are only marginally worse than cruise at killing those cruisers, while they are 25%+ better at killing battleships. The gist of my math was 40 cruisers per battleship to make cruise better than equivalent torps with two painters. And there are very few if any L4 missions that give you so few BS to kill. Alltho I havent done the math myself I just find it hard to believe. 25% more DPs means more than just 25% faster missions as the tank has less time to recharge. I do a mission like Angel X in 40 mins and I`ve read about ppl with extreme gank setups who do them in 32-33 mins or thereabout. With your calculations you should be able to do angel X in about 20 mins (rushing it without bonus) and that is faster then I have ever heard anyone run that mission solo. Guristas X should be over in 35-40 min killing all included bonus stage. Again I've never heard anyone being close to those times. Keep in mind that torps being flat 25%+ better than cruise is when dealing with BS ONLY. The higher the Small fries/BS+BC ratio goes, the lower the advantage is. And Angel Extra has a lot of small crap, so the torp advantage while existent is much lower than 25%. Needless to say I don't even bother running that mission because the ISK/time is crap compares to the likes of Vengeance, EA, Blockade. As for Guristas Extra, it has kinda the same issues as Angel Extra, and I have only done this like 2 or 3 times in my mission stint in Irjunen, it is not given by my usual Amarr/Khanid agents down south. And the one occasion I timed it, it took me 39 minutes. Not sure whether I actually killed the whole bonus stage or just the high bounty BS and the structure though. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Trisae	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:53:00 - [24] Edited by: Trisae on 28/03/2007 11:50:36 Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 28/03/2007 00:37:51 I swear by my torp and target painter combo. As it stands, we all seem to generally agree that torps are best vs BS. But where this is great is one volley one-shots a destroyer, two shots a BC and 3-5 shots a cruiser. Plus they work wonders vs those Dire/Arch/Whatever variants. I do that with cruises (also 1 volley some frigs). How many target painters/BCS? Originally by: Ralara I've timed myself on missions with Javelin Torps and cruise missiles. Angel extravaganza: 1 hour 39 minutes with torpedos, 2 hours 12 minutes with cruise guistas extravaganza (plus bonus room): 1 hour 42 minutes with torpedos, 1 hour 58 minutes with cruise. The assault: 42 minutes with torpedos, 1 hour 2 mins with cruise. Cruise missile 4, torpedo specialisation 4 (that only slightly increases refire rate). All other missile skills at 4 or 5. Torpedos for the win :) Yes, using T2 Torps and having superior skills in torps than cruises makes that real fair test. And btw, T2 Torps in a mission, WTF? If you have to use T2 ammo for missions that shows you something is wrong... A question for torp + target painter users, how do you tank sufficiently? Using 2 target apinters leaves you with 4 midslots, 1 is booster obviously then you have 2 hardeners and 1 boost amp, or 3 hardeners? I'm guessing no room for afterburner when running dual painter. Either way that leaves your tank with just over half the strength of a 6 midslot tank. 3PDU and 2BCU for lows?
Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:08:00 - [25] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/03/2007 12:06:28 Meds: Gist B-Type XL Booster Dread Guristas Invul Dread Guristas Invul Rat Specific T2/Deadspace Hardener PWNAGE PWNAGE Lows: DC2 DB PDU Domi BCU Dread BCU Dread BCU Rigs: 3* Hydraulic Bay thrusters Implants: LG Crystal except Alpha and Omega Had no problem running any L4s prior to 1.4 without warpout (which is the whole deal with L4 efficiency, you don't need to be able to tank whole rooms forever, just long enough to survive, and beyond that point maximize gank) as long as you knew what you were doing. That means no causing stage aggro (even though I survived a few 'accidents' too since gank = tank), and no running missions in lag hell (i.e. Saila and surroundings) since you have to micromanage the tank. It is not for the faint of heart or the casual careless runner, but it does create record times. And whoever uses Javelin torps in missions, did you miss that they were nerfed to hell in Rev? T1 torps are actually better now. Not to mention your times on the Extras are horrible... --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Trisae	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:33:00 - [26] Edited by: Trisae on 28/03/2007 12:30:48 Wow that really is balls to the wall gank setup! - about the DC, does that mean you run into armor/structure often? Or just for shield resists? Oh and considering how much all the other mods are worth, how come you use B-type and not X-type?
Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Trisae Edited by: Trisae on 28/03/2007 12:30:48 Wow that really is balls to the wall gank setup! - about the DC, does that mean you run into armor/structure often? Or just for shield resists? Oh and considering how much all the other mods are worth, how come you use B-type and not X-type? The DC is mainly for the shield resists (effectively 14.3% additional shield HP), but also serves as a good accident insurance. Has saved my butt on a number of occasions, and occasionally I even intentionally tanked into structure when I did not want to waste time on a warpout and knew I would pull thru despite massive aggro. And why not using X-Type? Because the B-Type does fine, and even though I own double-digit billions in fittings, 200 mil is still a lot of money to me that I don't want to waste on luxury. The other mods simply don't have cheaper alternatives that work almost as well. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:05:00 - [28] I second the fact torps are better. When you use 2 TP, you pretty much kill Cruisers with same amount of volleys as with cruises or even with less amount of volleys. Frigs when they MWD (btw that's bug but still...) are one shot. That was pretty shock to me because i had to spend 2-3 volleys for MWD frigs with cruises. So the only real crusises advantage is fitting. T2 sieges are pain in the a** to fit, apart from that they are better for lvl4.
Kaptein Trefot	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:10:00 - [29] Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 28/03/2007 13:06:41 200m cant be that much to you. Guritas x is 30m in bounty, about 3m in rewards and ca 8 mill in lp. Thats ca 40m isk for you in 39min, ie you earn 60m an hour for a mission you dont do cause it dont pay off, so I guess its reasonable to assume you make around 70m an hour in average? So a little less than 3 hours should give you 200m isk!
Leandro Salazar Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:20:00 - [30] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/03/2007 13:17:01 Originally by: Kaptein Trefot Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 28/03/2007 13:06:41 200m cant be that much to you. Guritas x is 30m in bounty, about 3m in rewards and ca 8 mill in lp. Thats ca 40m isk for you in 39min, ie you earn 60m an hour for a mission you dont do cause it dont pay off, so I guess its reasonable to assume you make around 70m an hour in average? So a little less than 3 hours should give you 200m isk! Just because I can earn that money in no time doesn't mean it is worth less to me. I am not one of these lunatic so called 'Stars' who completely forget where they come from once they get 1000 bucks everytime they go to the bathroom... And isn't Guristas Extra closer to 20 mil in bounty rather than 30? Main reason I don't do it is that my agents don't offer it. It was somewhat better than Angel Extra, even if just as tedious. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari



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