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Briani
Andromeda Survey and Mining Division Eve Trade Union
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Posted - 2007.03.28 11:52:00 -
[1]
There have been many threads on this topic and here's my 0.02 isk worth.
Macro miners and isk farmers hiding behind noob corp protection are the bane of many a corps life in an ever crowded universe.
Many corps are frustrated at the lack of ore in their home systems and all these corps want to do is mine enough ore to be self sufficient in ships and modules, selling any excess to buy more blueprints, ready for the day they'll be wardecced by the Privateers.
What is needed is direct action upon these noob corp miners and I would like to see it done with a storyline based on something like this...
Concord have recieved details of an undesirable element infiltrating the starter corps of EVE. Unable to pinpoint the culprits and with only limited information they have ordered an edict that any member of those corps who flys a mining barge or exhumer in Empire space will be immediately ordered to surrender their vessel or face the wrath of the assembled Concord fleet.
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2007.03.28 11:55:00 -
[2]
hmm,
you realise that some people get their mining chars back to noob corps to protect from war-dec trouble ?
thoose are not automaticly macro miners.
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PredatorPT
New Dawn Corp
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Posted - 2007.03.28 12:48:00 -
[3]
If the solution was that simple CCP would have fixed it a long time ago. Your suggestion would screw every single honest barge miner, who just wants to make some iskies without having to worry about war-decs all the time.
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Saibotek
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Posted - 2007.03.28 12:51:00 -
[4]
Lets not forget the added benefit of 0%tax.
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Laramon Questor
Minmatar Knights of the Silver Dawn
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Posted - 2007.03.28 12:57:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Saibotek Lets not forget the added benefit of 0%tax.
You, sir, make me sick, just like tax evaders in real life.
Even after failure, there can be redemption.
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Armin Novastorm
Gallente I-Omniscient-I
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Posted - 2007.03.28 13:01:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Laramon Questor
Originally by: Saibotek Lets not forget the added benefit of 0%tax.
You, sir, make me sick, just like tax evaders in real life.
Miners do not pay corp taxes. [Quote=CCP Sharkbait]
we are screwed. delaying startup again. soon as i have time i will fill you in on the details
Startup EST : 13:30
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Saibotek
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Posted - 2007.03.28 13:02:00 -
[7]
I am in a corp that charges 7% but when I got shoved to Aliastra between corps i Noticed it had 0%. almost considered going back.. But then i might be considered a BOB alt.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.28 14:01:00 -
[8]
Use factional navy NPCs in the belts. They go after barges and only barges in NPC corps. They have nice tanks, deal enough DPS to take out a covetor and have no ISK bounty and no loot. If you attack them, you loose a lot of faction and faction corp standings, so much to the point that you can't refine ore worth crap and get taxed to high heaven on all sales. This will wind up the NPC corp ISK farmer loop hole in short order.
Real players that join an NPC corp to avoid a war will be impacted some, but wars don't last forever and if you're in a war with your main, there are lots of other more useful things your second account can be doing anyway, like spying and running supplies.
It won't impact new players because new players are not running around in barges, and by the time they are, they'll be aware of this. -AS |
Heroldyn
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Posted - 2007.03.28 14:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy Use factional navy NPCs in the belts. They go after barges and only barges in NPC corps. They have nice tanks, deal enough DPS to take out a covetor and have no ISK bounty and no loot. If you attack them, you loose a lot of faction and faction corp standings, so much to the point that you can't refine ore worth crap and get taxed to high heaven on all sales. This will wind up the NPC corp ISK farmer loop hole in short order.
Real players that join an NPC corp to avoid a war will be impacted some, but wars don't last forever and if you're in a war with your main, there are lots of other more useful things your second account can be doing anyway, like spying and running supplies.
It won't impact new players because new players are not running around in barges, and by the time they are, they'll be aware of this.
i believe people should be free to decide what they wanna do by themselves. there are people in the game, playing for years and not having participated in any player corp. and its theire choice to play eve that way. people keep saying eve is a sandbox where everyone is free to do what they want, and then they say eve is a pvp game and people should join player corps and move to 0.0.
whatever the solution for macro-miners is, it has to be one that doesnt affect normal miners. the mining "profession" allready struggles enough.
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Korizan
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Posted - 2007.03.28 14:38:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Korizan on 28/03/2007 14:37:59 I think this solution will not work either the reasons are the same as others have already listed. However as far as corp tax goes there you can set the corp tax to any level you want including 0%.
It doesn't matter either way as the macro boys won't join corps cause they have no reason and it just means the the legitimate miners will be in corps and those are the ones that will get war decc'd.
So now you have less legit miners mining leaving even more macro miners out there.
A endless circle. There is no real solution to the problem at least not in game mechanics. Anything that is done to hurt the macro miners will also hurt the legit miners as well.
Funny enough the best way to find the macro miners and remove them is for CCP to do it quietly out of game and not tell anyone how they are finding them. For any information given out to the community is the same as telling the macro miners.
As much as I like free press and keeping everyone informed there are times when it is best not to say anything.
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Cipher7
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.28 14:49:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Cipher7 on 28/03/2007 14:46:43 Solution :
%40 tax on NPC corp members NPC corp members unable to trade except through market, where they will also suffer %40 tax on all transactions NPC corp members unable to send cash to other char NPC corp members unable to setup escrow/contract
If you want to do business, get in a corp and take your lumps like everybody else, this aint Rainbow Brite Online.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.28 14:58:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Banana Torres on 28/03/2007 14:56:12
Originally by: Cipher7 Edited by: Cipher7 on 28/03/2007 14:46:43 Solution :
%40 tax on NPC corp members NPC corp members unable to trade except through market, where they will also suffer %40 tax on all transactions NPC corp members unable to send cash to other char NPC corp members unable to setup escrow/contract
Solution to your solution, a alt in a one man corp that just does the stuff that you solution makes harder.
--
The Green Banana Corporation is Recruiting
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.28 15:03:00 -
[13]
Just add very short term PERSONAL wardecs, kinda like bribeing concord.
2.5m isk for one hour sounds about right. -
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2007.03.28 15:15:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Alski Just add very short term PERSONAL wardecs, kinda like bribeing concord.
2.5m isk for one hour sounds about right.
I'd have said 15 minute countdown to a 15 minute war. 1 million isk. 1v1 + standard aggro spreads. That would sort out the macros from the humans.
Eve: Cheats prosper. |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.28 15:28:00 -
[15]
All personal wardecs would lead to is griefing. A wardec is supposed to be for an IN GAME purpose, not because you the player thinks that someone is a macroer or because you don't like the other player for some unknown reason.
In all practicality in the EVE universe every mining ship would be running automated with minimal pilot intervention so macros are actually accurate, from a RP perspective. Note: I'm not saying that macroers belong in EvE, I agree that they should be removed just not at the cost of hurting actual miners because their purpose is not to play the game and have fun.
Many people stay or returned to NPC corps just because they got tired of wardecs, politics, etc and just want to have fun. Without the ability to step back and take a break or other ways of avoiding things they don't enjoy they would just leave the game, along with their money. SOunds fun doesn't it? 0.0 alliances, Pierates and Griefers would all that were left in the end.....
You have the method of dealing with macroers now. Petition them, gank them. If you don't want to lose your ship to concord to do it then your convictions aren't that high, are they? <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.28 15:49:00 -
[16]
While it is good for people to be able to stay in NPC corps and do their thing in relative safety, macro'ers and such are hurting the game, and it should be rebalanced in a way which weighs the interests of people playing the 'real game' over those who wish to stay in NPC corps permanently. -
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.28 15:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Crumplecorn While it is good for people to be able to stay in NPC corps and do their thing in relative safety, macro'ers and such are hurting the game, and it should be rebalanced in a way which weighs the interests of people playing the 'real game' over those who wish to stay in NPC corps permanently.
Until CCP comes out and says that NPC corp members aren't playing the real game, they are no different than anyone else. As for "rebalancing", I would be willing to put good ISK on a bet saying there are as many NPC corp members as there are PC corp members, specifically for the reasons I listed. Right now NPC corp members are not allowed many things, maybe a rebalancing is in order to give them some of the benefits of PC Corps (like Empire POSs, etc)
CCP HAS said that Macros are against the EULA. Punish them, not legitimate players. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Crumplecorn While it is good for people to be able to stay in NPC corps and do their thing in relative safety, macro'ers and such are hurting the game, and it should be rebalanced in a way which weighs the interests of people playing the 'real game' over those who wish to stay in NPC corps permanently.
Until CCP comes out and says that NPC corp members aren't playing the real game, they are no different than anyone else. As for "rebalancing", I would be willing to put good ISK on a bet saying there are as many NPC corp members as there are PC corp members, specifically for the reasons I listed. Right now NPC corp members are not allowed many things, maybe a rebalancing is in order to give them some of the benefits of PC Corps (like Empire POSs, etc)
CCP HAS said that Macros are against the EULA. Punish them, not legitimate players.
If the only way to punish the macros is to harm NPC corpers, they should do it.
NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game. -
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
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Motorcycle Emptiness
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cipher7 Edited by: Cipher7 on 28/03/2007 14:46:43 Solution :
%40 tax on NPC corp members NPC corp members unable to trade except through market, where they will also suffer %40 tax on all transactions NPC corp members unable to send cash to other char NPC corp members unable to setup escrow/contract
If you want to do business, get in a corp and take your lumps like everybody else, this aint Rainbow Brite Online.
no it's not, rainbow brite online has permadeath.
Flashing White Box (rank 1) |
Star Chief
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Laramon Questor
Originally by: Saibotek Lets not forget the added benefit of 0%tax.
You, sir, make me sick, just like tax evaders in real life.
"Over and over again Courts have said there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich and poor, and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands. Taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. to demand more in the name of morals is mere cant." --Justice Learned Hand
[Posted with pride by my NPC Corp. alt]
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:16:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Heroldyn
whatever the solution for macro-miners is, it has to be one that doesnt affect normal miners. the mining "profession" allready struggles enough.
There isn't one, that's the problem. CCP can't handle the volume of ISK farmers, that is very apparent. Something else will have to be done or we, as paying customers, must accept cheating exists in the product we buy.
Do you want to purchase a product that protects paying customers or a product that protects customers that knowingly break the EULA and are cheat enablers? -AS |
Dant Kramble
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:19:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dant Kramble on 28/03/2007 16:19:20 I'd favor something a bit more dynamic to make life easier on people who use NPC corps for the right reasons.
Perhaps a progressive sales & income tax rate based on cummulative time in NPC corps?
Let it start going up half a percent a week at first, and eventually speed up. By the time a person could be in a covetor, let the tax be 15% or above.
Couldn't be that massive a programming job, and would slowly ease noobs out into the real world while leaving macroers vulnerable to wardecs eventually.
If mission-runners are not seen as a problem, let the tax rate fall with every successful critical mission.
Easy to rationalize as "contributing to the corp" on the basis of seniority etc.
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AgentEM
Gallente The Jorg UnGround
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Banana Torres Edited by: Banana Torres on 28/03/2007 14:56:12
Originally by: Cipher7 Edited by: Cipher7 on 28/03/2007 14:46:43 Solution :
%40 tax on NPC corp members NPC corp members unable to trade except through market, where they will also suffer %40 tax on all transactions NPC corp members unable to send cash to other char NPC corp members unable to setup escrow/contract
Solution to your solution, a alt in a one man corp that just does the stuff that you solution makes harder.
At which point they are fair game to a war dec.
How about an increasing tax rate based on time spent in an NPC Corp? This time would accumulate each time the player joined an NPC Corp.
Fits in to the risk vs reward system that seems to be in place.
I think maybe once we get a true feel for how CCP wishes to implement factional warfare, a solution to this problem may not be very complicated.
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Julexus Quandem
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game.
Who are you to judge the what the 'real game' is? Yes, im an Npc-corpie, and likely always will be. There are people in Uni of Caille who have been there years and happily make billions. Why should I be punished because of the way I choose to play the game? I agree with you that we should have no priority when balancing the game, but neither should any other group of players have priority.
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whahein
Minmatar wh inc
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:31:00 -
[25]
Edited by: whahein on 28/03/2007 16:29:51 Pod pilots NPC corps are not that solid founded in the game fiction, pod pilots are suposed to be pretty powerfull entitys in their own merit, but for some reason no pod pilot have to have a corp backing them to exist in eve.
I cant see what it is the npc corps do, it dont influence wheater or not you can run missions with a certain fraction or where you can move, or anything else really. And theres rookie chat plus fraction chats avaliable. And as a framework for new players to interact NPC corps is also sort of redundant.
Replacing NPC corps with a status of Independent pilot could mean some but not full protection against wars(max time limit, higher concord bribes ect) for players that was not interested in the politcs involved with corps, without offering the blank protection of a NPC corp. forming a more flexible framework for CCP to fintune the rules of empire living.
Fictionwise there could be some revolt where the pod pilots demand individual rights.
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Kyo Dai
Caldari Rolling Death Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Crumplecorn While it is good for people to be able to stay in NPC corps and do their thing in relative safety, macro'ers and such are hurting the game, and it should be rebalanced in a way which weighs the interests of people playing the 'real game' over those who wish to stay in NPC corps permanently.
ah, the "real game". I'm glad you decided to descend from on high and school all of us noobs. If the choice exists to join an npc corp I would say its probably part of the "real game". Reality TV is now the opiate of the masses....sorry Karl. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:38:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/03/2007 16:35:32
Originally by: Julexus Quandem
Originally by: Crumplecorn
NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game.
Who are you to judge the what the 'real game' is? Yes, im an Npc-corpie, and likely always will be. There are people in Uni of Caille who have been there years and happily make billions. Why should I be punished because of the way I choose to play the game? I agree with you that we should have no priority when balancing the game, but neither should any other group of players have priority.
People who join together in real corps and play the game on a higher level rather than just grinding all the time should be prioritised.
What you do isn't jsut solo play, it's isolationist. In a MMORPG.
You really think that a possible solution to the macro'ers harming the player driven market should not be implemented because it would interfere with your ability to roll around in your barge and solo grind? -
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
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Kyo Dai
Caldari Rolling Death Inc
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Julexus Quandem
Originally by: Crumplecorn
NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game.
Who are you to judge the what the 'real game' is? Yes, im an Npc-corpie, and likely always will be. There are people in Uni of Caille who have been there years and happily make billions. Why should I be punished because of the way I choose to play the game? I agree with you that we should have no priority when balancing the game, but neither should any other group of players have priority.
People who join together in real corps and play the game on a higher level rather than just grinding all the time should be prioritised.
What you do isn't jsut solo play, it's isolationist. In a MMORPG.
You can tell me how to play when you start paying my monthly fee. Until then you don't get to tell me or anyone else how to play the game. This game is supposed to have a variety of play experiences. NPC corps are part of that. Reality TV is now the opiate of the masses....sorry Karl. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:42:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kyo Dai
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Julexus Quandem
Originally by: Crumplecorn
NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game.
Who are you to judge the what the 'real game' is? Yes, im an Npc-corpie, and likely always will be. There are people in Uni of Caille who have been there years and happily make billions. Why should I be punished because of the way I choose to play the game? I agree with you that we should have no priority when balancing the game, but neither should any other group of players have priority.
People who join together in real corps and play the game on a higher level rather than just grinding all the time should be prioritised.
What you do isn't jsut solo play, it's isolationist. In a MMORPG.
You can tell me how to play when you start paying my monthly fee. Until then you don't get to tell me or anyone else how to play the game. This game is supposed to have a variety of play experiences. NPC corps are part of that.
Well, I pay my monthly fee (2 in fact), and I want race cars, therefore there should be race cars.
After all, no-one can tell me how to play. -
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
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Star Chief
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:48:00 -
[30]
Quote: You can tell me how to play when you start paying my monthly fee. Until then you don't get to tell me or anyone else how to play the game.
Bingo. What is it with people wanting to spend my ISK? If you want to deal with macro-miners, put your heads together and find a solution. Keep your grubby fingers out of my wallet. |
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