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Briani Andromeda Survey and Mining Division Eve Trade Union	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:52:00 - [1] There have been many threads on this topic and here's my 0.02 isk worth. Macro miners and isk farmers hiding behind noob corp protection are the bane of many a corps life in an ever crowded universe. Many corps are frustrated at the lack of ore in their home systems and all these corps want to do is mine enough ore to be self sufficient in ships and modules, selling any excess to buy more blueprints, ready for the day they'll be wardecced by the Privateers. What is needed is direct action upon these noob corp miners and I would like to see it done with a storyline based on something like this... Concord have recieved details of an undesirable element infiltrating the starter corps of EVE. Unable to pinpoint the culprits and with only limited information they have ordered an edict that any member of those corps who flys a mining barge or exhumer in Empire space will be immediately ordered to surrender their vessel or face the wrath of the assembled Concord fleet.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:55:00 - [2] hmm, you realise that some people get their mining chars back to noob corps to protect from war-dec trouble ? thoose are not automaticly macro miners.
PredatorPT New Dawn Corp	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:48:00 - [3] If the solution was that simple CCP would have fixed it a long time ago. Your suggestion would screw every single honest barge miner, who just wants to make some iskies without having to worry about war-decs all the time.
Saibotek	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:51:00 - [4] Lets not forget the added benefit of 0%tax.
Laramon Questor Minmatar Knights of the Silver Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:57:00 - [5] Originally by: Saibotek Lets not forget the added benefit of 0%tax. You, sir, make me sick, just like tax evaders in real life. Even after failure, there can be redemption.
Armin Novastorm Gallente I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Laramon Questor Originally by: Saibotek Lets not forget the added benefit of 0%tax. You, sir, make me sick, just like tax evaders in real life. Miners do not pay corp taxes. [Quote=CCP Sharkbait] we are screwed. delaying startup again. soon as i have time i will fill you in on the details Startup EST : 13:30
Saibotek	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:02:00 - [7] I am in a corp that charges 7% but when I got shoved to Aliastra between corps i Noticed it had 0%. almost considered going back.. But then i might be considered a BOB alt.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:01:00 - [8] Use factional navy NPCs in the belts. They go after barges and only barges in NPC corps. They have nice tanks, deal enough DPS to take out a covetor and have no ISK bounty and no loot. If you attack them, you loose a lot of faction and faction corp standings, so much to the point that you can't refine ore worth crap and get taxed to high heaven on all sales. This will wind up the NPC corp ISK farmer loop hole in short order. Real players that join an NPC corp to avoid a war will be impacted some, but wars don't last forever and if you're in a war with your main, there are lots of other more useful things your second account can be doing anyway, like spying and running supplies. It won't impact new players because new players are not running around in barges, and by the time they are, they'll be aware of this. -AS
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:10:00 - [9] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Use factional navy NPCs in the belts. They go after barges and only barges in NPC corps. They have nice tanks, deal enough DPS to take out a covetor and have no ISK bounty and no loot. If you attack them, you loose a lot of faction and faction corp standings, so much to the point that you can't refine ore worth crap and get taxed to high heaven on all sales. This will wind up the NPC corp ISK farmer loop hole in short order. Real players that join an NPC corp to avoid a war will be impacted some, but wars don't last forever and if you're in a war with your main, there are lots of other more useful things your second account can be doing anyway, like spying and running supplies. It won't impact new players because new players are not running around in barges, and by the time they are, they'll be aware of this. i believe people should be free to decide what they wanna do by themselves. there are people in the game, playing for years and not having participated in any player corp. and its theire choice to play eve that way. people keep saying eve is a sandbox where everyone is free to do what they want, and then they say eve is a pvp game and people should join player corps and move to 0.0. whatever the solution for macro-miners is, it has to be one that doesnt affect normal miners. the mining "profession" allready struggles enough.
Korizan	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:38:00 - [10] Edited by: Korizan on 28/03/2007 14:37:59 I think this solution will not work either the reasons are the same as others have already listed. However as far as corp tax goes there you can set the corp tax to any level you want including 0%. It doesn't matter either way as the macro boys won't join corps cause they have no reason and it just means the the legitimate miners will be in corps and those are the ones that will get war decc'd. So now you have less legit miners mining leaving even more macro miners out there. A endless circle. There is no real solution to the problem at least not in game mechanics. Anything that is done to hurt the macro miners will also hurt the legit miners as well. Funny enough the best way to find the macro miners and remove them is for CCP to do it quietly out of game and not tell anyone how they are finding them. For any information given out to the community is the same as telling the macro miners. As much as I like free press and keeping everyone informed there are times when it is best not to say anything.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:49:00 - [11] Edited by: Cipher7 on 28/03/2007 14:46:43 Solution : %40 tax on NPC corp members NPC corp members unable to trade except through market, where they will also suffer %40 tax on all transactions NPC corp members unable to send cash to other char NPC corp members unable to setup escrow/contract If you want to do business, get in a corp and take your lumps like everybody else, this aint Rainbow Brite Online.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Banana Torres on 28/03/2007 14:56:12 Originally by: Cipher7 Edited by: Cipher7 on 28/03/2007 14:46:43 Solution : %40 tax on NPC corp members NPC corp members unable to trade except through market, where they will also suffer %40 tax on all transactions NPC corp members unable to send cash to other char NPC corp members unable to setup escrow/contract Solution to your solution, a alt in a one man corp that just does the stuff that you solution makes harder. -- The Green Banana Corporation is Recruiting
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:03:00 - [13] Just add very short term PERSONAL wardecs, kinda like bribeing concord. 2.5m isk for one hour sounds about right. -
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Alski Just add very short term PERSONAL wardecs, kinda like bribeing concord. 2.5m isk for one hour sounds about right. I'd have said 15 minute countdown to a 15 minute war. 1 million isk. 1v1 + standard aggro spreads. That would sort out the macros from the humans. Eve: Cheats prosper.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:28:00 - [15] All personal wardecs would lead to is griefing. A wardec is supposed to be for an IN GAME purpose, not because you the player thinks that someone is a macroer or because you don't like the other player for some unknown reason. In all practicality in the EVE universe every mining ship would be running automated with minimal pilot intervention so macros are actually accurate, from a RP perspective. Note: I'm not saying that macroers belong in EvE, I agree that they should be removed just not at the cost of hurting actual miners because their purpose is not to play the game and have fun. Many people stay or returned to NPC corps just because they got tired of wardecs, politics, etc and just want to have fun. Without the ability to step back and take a break or other ways of avoiding things they don't enjoy they would just leave the game, along with their money. SOunds fun doesn't it? 0.0 alliances, Pierates and Griefers would all that were left in the end..... You have the method of dealing with macroers now. Petition them, gank them. If you don't want to lose your ship to concord to do it then your convictions aren't that high, are they? <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:49:00 - [16] While it is good for people to be able to stay in NPC corps and do their thing in relative safety, macro'ers and such are hurting the game, and it should be rebalanced in a way which weighs the interests of people playing the 'real game' over those who wish to stay in NPC corps permanently. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Crumplecorn While it is good for people to be able to stay in NPC corps and do their thing in relative safety, macro'ers and such are hurting the game, and it should be rebalanced in a way which weighs the interests of people playing the 'real game' over those who wish to stay in NPC corps permanently. Until CCP comes out and says that NPC corp members aren't playing the real game, they are no different than anyone else. As for "rebalancing", I would be willing to put good ISK on a bet saying there are as many NPC corp members as there are PC corp members, specifically for the reasons I listed. Right now NPC corp members are not allowed many things, maybe a rebalancing is in order to give them some of the benefits of PC Corps (like Empire POSs, etc) CCP HAS said that Macros are against the EULA. Punish them, not legitimate players. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Crumplecorn While it is good for people to be able to stay in NPC corps and do their thing in relative safety, macro'ers and such are hurting the game, and it should be rebalanced in a way which weighs the interests of people playing the 'real game' over those who wish to stay in NPC corps permanently. Until CCP comes out and says that NPC corp members aren't playing the real game, they are no different than anyone else. As for "rebalancing", I would be willing to put good ISK on a bet saying there are as many NPC corp members as there are PC corp members, specifically for the reasons I listed. Right now NPC corp members are not allowed many things, maybe a rebalancing is in order to give them some of the benefits of PC Corps (like Empire POSs, etc) CCP HAS said that Macros are against the EULA. Punish them, not legitimate players. If the only way to punish the macros is to harm NPC corpers, they should do it. NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Motorcycle Emptiness Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Cipher7 Edited by: Cipher7 on 28/03/2007 14:46:43 Solution : %40 tax on NPC corp members NPC corp members unable to trade except through market, where they will also suffer %40 tax on all transactions NPC corp members unable to send cash to other char NPC corp members unable to setup escrow/contract If you want to do business, get in a corp and take your lumps like everybody else, this aint Rainbow Brite Online. no it's not, rainbow brite online has permadeath. Flashing White Box (rank 1)
Star Chief Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Laramon Questor Originally by: Saibotek Lets not forget the added benefit of 0%tax. You, sir, make me sick, just like tax evaders in real life. "Over and over again Courts have said there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich and poor, and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands. Taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. to demand more in the name of morals is mere cant." --Justice Learned Hand [Posted with pride by my NPC Corp. alt]
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:16:00 - [21] Originally by: Heroldyn whatever the solution for macro-miners is, it has to be one that doesnt affect normal miners. the mining "profession" allready struggles enough. There isn't one, that's the problem. CCP can't handle the volume of ISK farmers, that is very apparent. Something else will have to be done or we, as paying customers, must accept cheating exists in the product we buy. Do you want to purchase a product that protects paying customers or a product that protects customers that knowingly break the EULA and are cheat enablers? -AS
Dant Kramble	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:19:00 - [22] Edited by: Dant Kramble on 28/03/2007 16:19:20 I'd favor something a bit more dynamic to make life easier on people who use NPC corps for the right reasons. Perhaps a progressive sales & income tax rate based on cummulative time in NPC corps? Let it start going up half a percent a week at first, and eventually speed up. By the time a person could be in a covetor, let the tax be 15% or above. Couldn't be that massive a programming job, and would slowly ease noobs out into the real world while leaving macroers vulnerable to wardecs eventually. If mission-runners are not seen as a problem, let the tax rate fall with every successful critical mission. Easy to rationalize as "contributing to the corp" on the basis of seniority etc.
AgentEM Gallente The Jorg UnGround	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Banana Torres Edited by: Banana Torres on 28/03/2007 14:56:12 Originally by: Cipher7 Edited by: Cipher7 on 28/03/2007 14:46:43 Solution : %40 tax on NPC corp members NPC corp members unable to trade except through market, where they will also suffer %40 tax on all transactions NPC corp members unable to send cash to other char NPC corp members unable to setup escrow/contract Solution to your solution, a alt in a one man corp that just does the stuff that you solution makes harder. At which point they are fair game to a war dec. How about an increasing tax rate based on time spent in an NPC Corp? This time would accumulate each time the player joined an NPC Corp. Fits in to the risk vs reward system that seems to be in place. I think maybe once we get a true feel for how CCP wishes to implement factional warfare, a solution to this problem may not be very complicated.
Julexus Quandem	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Crumplecorn NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game. Who are you to judge the what the 'real game' is? Yes, im an Npc-corpie, and likely always will be. There are people in Uni of Caille who have been there years and happily make billions. Why should I be punished because of the way I choose to play the game? I agree with you that we should have no priority when balancing the game, but neither should any other group of players have priority.
whahein Minmatar wh inc	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:31:00 - [25] Edited by: whahein on 28/03/2007 16:29:51 Pod pilots NPC corps are not that solid founded in the game fiction, pod pilots are suposed to be pretty powerfull entitys in their own merit, but for some reason no pod pilot have to have a corp backing them to exist in eve. I cant see what it is the npc corps do, it dont influence wheater or not you can run missions with a certain fraction or where you can move, or anything else really. And theres rookie chat plus fraction chats avaliable. And as a framework for new players to interact NPC corps is also sort of redundant. Replacing NPC corps with a status of Independent pilot could mean some but not full protection against wars(max time limit, higher concord bribes ect) for players that was not interested in the politcs involved with corps, without offering the blank protection of a NPC corp. forming a more flexible framework for CCP to fintune the rules of empire living. Fictionwise there could be some revolt where the pod pilots demand individual rights.
Kyo Dai Caldari Rolling Death Inc	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Crumplecorn While it is good for people to be able to stay in NPC corps and do their thing in relative safety, macro'ers and such are hurting the game, and it should be rebalanced in a way which weighs the interests of people playing the 'real game' over those who wish to stay in NPC corps permanently. ah, the "real game". I'm glad you decided to descend from on high and school all of us noobs. If the choice exists to join an npc corp I would say its probably part of the "real game". Reality TV is now the opiate of the masses....sorry Karl.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:38:00 - [27] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/03/2007 16:35:32 Originally by: Julexus Quandem Originally by: Crumplecorn NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game. Who are you to judge the what the 'real game' is? Yes, im an Npc-corpie, and likely always will be. There are people in Uni of Caille who have been there years and happily make billions. Why should I be punished because of the way I choose to play the game? I agree with you that we should have no priority when balancing the game, but neither should any other group of players have priority. People who join together in real corps and play the game on a higher level rather than just grinding all the time should be prioritised. What you do isn't jsut solo play, it's isolationist. In a MMORPG. You really think that a possible solution to the macro'ers harming the player driven market should not be implemented because it would interfere with your ability to roll around in your barge and solo grind? - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Kyo Dai Caldari Rolling Death Inc	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:40:00 - [28] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Julexus Quandem Originally by: Crumplecorn NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game. Who are you to judge the what the 'real game' is? Yes, im an Npc-corpie, and likely always will be. There are people in Uni of Caille who have been there years and happily make billions. Why should I be punished because of the way I choose to play the game? I agree with you that we should have no priority when balancing the game, but neither should any other group of players have priority. People who join together in real corps and play the game on a higher level rather than just grinding all the time should be prioritised. What you do isn't jsut solo play, it's isolationist. In a MMORPG. You can tell me how to play when you start paying my monthly fee. Until then you don't get to tell me or anyone else how to play the game. This game is supposed to have a variety of play experiences. NPC corps are part of that. Reality TV is now the opiate of the masses....sorry Karl.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:42:00 - [29] Originally by: Kyo Dai Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Julexus Quandem Originally by: Crumplecorn NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game. Who are you to judge the what the 'real game' is? Yes, im an Npc-corpie, and likely always will be. There are people in Uni of Caille who have been there years and happily make billions. Why should I be punished because of the way I choose to play the game? I agree with you that we should have no priority when balancing the game, but neither should any other group of players have priority. People who join together in real corps and play the game on a higher level rather than just grinding all the time should be prioritised. What you do isn't jsut solo play, it's isolationist. In a MMORPG. You can tell me how to play when you start paying my monthly fee. Until then you don't get to tell me or anyone else how to play the game. This game is supposed to have a variety of play experiences. NPC corps are part of that. Well, I pay my monthly fee (2 in fact), and I want race cars, therefore there should be race cars. After all, no-one can tell me how to play. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Star Chief Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:48:00 - [30] Quote: You can tell me how to play when you start paying my monthly fee. Until then you don't get to tell me or anyone else how to play the game. Bingo. What is it with people wanting to spend my ISK? If you want to deal with macro-miners, put your heads together and find a solution. Keep your grubby fingers out of my wallet.
Kumu Honua	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:53:00 - [31] Players in npc corps have every right to be players in npc corps.
Motorcycle Emptiness Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Kumu Honua Players in npc corps have every right to be players in npc corps. nope, between two players both paying subscriptions, if one is in an NPC corp and likes to mine, and the other is a pvp person, the pirate's opinion is more important and the miner should shut up and go back to WoW. that's generally the sort of sentiment I'm seeing. Flashing White Box (rank 1)
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:15:00 - [33] Originally by: Motorcycle Emptiness Originally by: Kumu Honua Players in npc corps have every right to be players in npc corps. nope, between two players both paying subscriptions, if one is in an NPC corp and likes to mine, and the other is a pvp person, the pirate's opinion is more important and the miner should shut up and go back to WoW. that's generally the sort of sentiment I'm seeing. Ignore those posts, a canard, repeated ad nausea, is a dual fallacy and has no value. However, if we go to the basic risk/reward paradigm, then being in a player corp is more risky than being in an NPC corp, as such, player corp miners should have a reward higher than NPC corp miners. To thwart macros, we don't need to up the PC corp player rewards, but instead decrease the NPC player rewards with out also hurting new players. Anti ISK farming belt rats do this well, if they only attack players in NPC corps, that are also in mining barges and exhumers. Carry an additional penalty of loosing faction standings for attacking these anti-farmer rats and the macro issue would be cleaned up rather quickly. This does not hurt new players since they don't fly barges. It could impact legit players in NPC corps - but these players do have options, options they can choose to take. The solution is going to require that NPC corps are not a profitable place to stay. Or we accept that macros are here to stay. There are no other alternatives short of CCP devising a tracking mechnisim other than the current petitions. -AS
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:17:00 - [34] Edited by: Angellyne on 28/03/2007 17:15:15 Originally by: Crumplecorn Well, I pay my monthly fee (2 in fact), and I want race cars, therefore there should be race cars. After all, no-one can tell me how to play. Any time something you don't like is under discussion - mission runners, NPC corp members or what have you, you talk "the real game", "a higher level" or some other pompous self-aggrandizing rhetoric. It also makes your arguments seem irrelevant, since I doubt anyone recognizes your authority to dictate what is and isn't "the real Eve". Particularly irritating when you follow this up with blatant strawman arguments - as in "race cars". NPC corps are there, missions are there. Feel superior to those who use them, if that's your deal. Just realize how redundant it is to publicize your delusions of grandeur quite so often.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:20:00 - [35] You know what they could do? CCP could designate a few regions of space where Concord would not intervene should players attack each other, even those in NPC corporations. Furthermore, they could distinguish these areas by establishing a "security rating" for each system, perhaps even offer greater rewards and benefits to offset increased risk. Oh wait... we already have that. I don't understand what the problem is. There's plenty of veldspar in low sec and 0.0. Want to play the 'real' game? Get out of Empire.
Eewec Ourbyni Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Motorcycle Emptiness Originally by: Kumu Honua Players in npc corps have every right to be players in npc corps. nope, between two players both paying subscriptions, if one is in an NPC corp and likes to mine, and the other is a pvp person, the pirate's opinion is more important and the miner should shut up and go back to WoW. that's generally the sort of sentiment I'm seeing. Never played wow, never want to play wow, quite happy mining in my npc corp main character, doing my thing playing the game as I want to play it. And no, I don't use a macro, unlike some... What I'd love to know is exactly how these people know the miner is using a macro. It's not like talking in local is encouraged, and if you'd been mining for hours, you'd probably nod off now and then too. If I want to play that sort of game, why shouldn't I? Currently all I see are reasons why someone who currently mines without a macro should go program his own macro program. Corp Tax in NPC corps... a macro cares not... be interesting to see what the price of minerals does though as I have a distinct feeling the only reason they are as low as they are is because of macro's. Who wants to pay 10isk/unit of trit, or 500isk/unit of Isogen? I'm not saying that macro's are good, they aren't, but if you remove all the players who use macros for playing the game then I hope they reduce the volume of minerals/ore and increase the yeilds or the price is going to skyrocket if there as many as everyone is making out. This is a sig... -- You think this guys post is nuts.... you should see his bio -- ... good, ain't it!
Hamshoe	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:50:00 - [37] Edited by: Hamshoe on 28/03/2007 17:46:59 Originally by: Crumplecorn Well, I pay my monthly fee (2 in fact), and I want race cars, therefore there should be race cars. After all, no-one can tell me how to play. So... is someone preventing you from racing cars, or is that a poorly thought out analogy? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.28 18:20:00 - [38] Originally by: Hamshoe Edited by: Hamshoe on 28/03/2007 17:46:59 Originally by: Crumplecorn Well, I pay my monthly fee (2 in fact), and I want race cars, therefore there should be race cars. After all, no-one can tell me how to play. So... is someone preventing you from racing cars, or is that a poorly thought out analogy? Its EvE, you don't race cars you race ships. And yes, there ARE sanctioned races if you want to do that or you can create your own race and sponsor it. I would like to know where people get the idea that being in a NPC corp equates to solo play? I play with others all the time and run missions with others with this NPC alt as often as I run missions with my PC Corp main. I mine with others with my NPC character all the time. I talk to others all the time in the NPC Corp channel giving and getting assistance. And yes, my other character is in a decent sized and friendly corp and not some invisible silent entity. Most players in NPC corps are a lot more friendly to other players than those that are in PC corps you aren't a member of. If you had players in other corps more friendly to others and fewer people shooting at others via wardecs just because they can you would have fewer players in NPC corps. The problem is you, not the NPC corp members. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.28 18:34:00 - [39] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 28/03/2007 18:33:32 for the 3478927484369783469467949867y42986544634 time.... NO.... /Rant on (I am getting FED UP by all these disgised nerf NPC corp suggestion that DOESNT SOLVE THE PROBLEM THEY WANTED TO SOLVE.... This will happen if you nerf npc corp. The farmers will ADAPT!!! they will go into PC corps, and when wardeced, they will just make a new corp, shuffle chars, this is perfectly fine for them to do if they dont fight back. at the end of the day, the farmers will keep on doing what they are doing, and the casual players will log into.. "WTF.. the wardec is 24 hours ago... not again.."... ALL THESE NERF NPC CORP SUGGESTIONS ARE NOT WELL THOUGHT OUT,(yes, all of them.. no one came up with anything that would work and cant be worked around in the last 3 YEARS!!!) AND THEY HURT CAUSAL PLAYERS MORE THAN THEY HURT THOSE FRICKEN FARMERS... use you brains people, the farmers certainly use theirs! /rant off I REPEAT!!!it DOESNT SOLVE THE PROBLEM!!! want the farmer problems solved?... TELL CCP to add in a pop up at log in that state: "buying isk with cash will result in banning, by logging on, you agree to this and will accept the consequences. edit: and no, elimintating the 24 hour timer between wardec and the actual shooting WILL break eve...(insta grief gank....) just saying this before some smarty pants suggest it. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Karasuma Akane Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:06:00 - [40] Edited by: Karasuma Akane on 28/03/2007 21:03:56 Instead of 'nerfing NPC corps' (which is not a solution to the macro problem), some of the CCP GMs need to hop into Polaris frigates to scour asteroid belts - and when they come across (for example) three Covetors with characters named abhorrer32, absolvent16, absinthe76, all created on the same day six months ago and in the same NPC corporation... given the tools to view playing history (hmmm why do these accounts mine twenty hours a day?) and IP addresses (hmmm why do these accounts come from the same IP?), it's a pretty conclusive case. Blast them into oblivion and ban the accounts and follow the dirty isk trail! There should be a small squad of CCP employees ready to investigate macro petitions as soon as they're submitted and ready to take action. If CCP actually investigated macrominer/macrohauler/macromissioner petitions instead of always returning an automated we'll look into it reply and then apparently doing nothing, there would be less frustration from the playerbase regarding the issue. ----- The possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1.
phillip duncan	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:07:00 - [41] Some isk farmers do set up corps to try and hide the fact they are isk farmers. As soon as they are war dec'ed they all quite (they can use a off line alt as CEO's) and join another isk farming corp. currenlty its possible to create a character with all the skills needed for setting up a copr of 10 people during character creation with no training needed. As a result its easy for the isk farmer to have 2 corps per account they could switch too. As it takes 24 hours to declare war and they can quite corps (only CEO has any roles) they keep ahead of the war decs and avoid the idea of stopping barges being used for mining in NPC corps. Also remember that a battleship can mine ore almost as good as the large tech1 barge but with a much better tank, then a lot of barges were getting suicide killed they switched back to battlships for the greater protection and just added more accounts to make up for the lost isk per hour. I have been both a NPC corp miner and been a member of three corps so I know both sides. While I would like the players to be able to stop isk farmers, if CCP gave players the ability to do so it would be used against lagitimate miners (I have been called a macro while in a player corp, the person in quest was very supprised that I responeded to him in local pointing out how to tell isk farmers apart from real players). CCP should look at better ways of limitting the profitabilty of isk farming by either: 1) Banning all buyers (or move them to a 0.8 system settig their balance very negitive and giving them a rookie ship to mine/rat it till they get a possitive balance). 2) Activly audit accounts that are on line actively playing for over X number of hours per month that are in NPC corps or a significant percentage of the player corp exceeds the X hours per month. Were X is a large figure so only those that playing for say an avange of 12 hours a day every day of the month would be effective. most normal people will not reach this figure and the real ones will easily pass an audit of there characters accounts, those that fail are suppended. I am suggesting an audit tracing were they spend there money, if they just transfer the majority of it to another account that is not a member of the corp or one of there alts, its needs further investigation. Both ideas will limit the profitabilty of isk farming by either reducing demand by scaring of buyers or by driving up the costs and risk to the isk farmer.
phillip duncan	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:27:00 - [42] Originally by: Karasuma Akane Edited by: Karasuma Akane on 28/03/2007 21:03:56 There should be a small squad of CCP employees ready to investigate macro petitions as soon as they're submitted and ready to take action. If CCP actually investigated macrominer/macrohauler/macromissioner petitions instead of always returning an automated we'll look into it reply and then apparently doing nothing, there would be less frustration from the playerbase regarding the issue. A long time ago I suggest that a new devision of ISD be formed to do this kind of checking so provide the number of "people" hours needed to deal with the problem with out draing CCP bank account(I beleive there woud be a lot of people willing to help out). They could then pass it to a GM to make the final decission following by either spawning a Concord titan and using its doomsday weapon, or the ISD ship creations a cryo feild for the titans weapon. Give the Corncord Titan a 0.1 sec recharge time and a second's worth firing will chear up the mining operation and the resulting mess completely. Then the accounts can be banned. They could be reported as rogue drone infested ships (after all they are under computer control with out a pilot at the helm) as a new story as well (to anounce the nchange to players). I am sure all players would like to see a notice in local reporting a titan had just destored a groupe of rogue drone infested ships in belt II 5. Some limitations on the ISD people would be needed like assigning the to a system/group of belts so that they cannot look at anyones details that takes there fancy and have two or more carry out the checks on each group so that one person cannot abuse the postion they are given.
Dant Kramble	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:39:00 - [43] I was gonna fuss that phillip (and others) suggestions almost all had to do with lowering the profitability of CCP at the same time as the macro'ers, but his last suggestion revealed he already knew that :) There is no reasonable way to eliminate the possibility of macromining without cauing huge burdens to either other players or CCP. The best you can hope for is to make it harder -> less profitable. Lots of the suggestions raise the cost of the enterprise. I think without some encourage ment to get them out of NPC corps, its just too easy for them. Granted, they can private corp-hop away from any wardecs as it stands, but that can be made more difficult as well. I think the solution will have to take the form of nipping at lots of margins, rather than one clean act that solves everything. Ultimately though, I'm convinced they are a disease to be managed, not cured.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:46:00 - [44] I am of two minds about this problem. People ought to be able to Dec n00b corp farmers/macroers, yet I dont want the legitimate small guys to get nerfed. I think that every Charracter, over a certain age should be Deccable. I honestly dont know if there is a viable solution thats not mutually exclusive between my two wishes. I wish there were.
Slayton Ford Caldari Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:57:00 - [45] Why do PCs need to be in corps? If I was in a corp and left because I needed a vacation back in empire away from the corp politics, why do I have to go to a NPC corp when I quit my current? Why not let lone players become "Independents". A Independent is a player with out a corp. Players w/o corps will have limited Concord protection and therefore can get dec'd. A dec on a independent would be limited to a region or even constellation, would have a short wait period (say 6 hours) and last for a few days at most. Additionally, only players could dec independents, not corps/alliances. The NPC corps will become like the newb channel. IE you can only be in it a limited amount of time and then your gone for good. This protects new players from the ravages of PvP. Now for the non-macro players who would normally end up in the NPC corp, they can stay an independent or they can join one of the numorous PC verisons of NPC corps that pop up. Now, any suggestions on killing macro miners in Covertors who are not jet-canning? Theres 2 in Tintoh that need to die.
TomParad0x Caldari Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2007.03.28 22:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Briani There have been many threads on this topic and here's my 0.02 isk worth. Macro miners and isk farmers hiding behind noob corp protection are the bane of many a corps life in an ever crowded universe. Many corps are frustrated at the lack of ore in their home systems and all these corps want to do is mine enough ore to be self sufficient in ships and modules, selling any excess to buy more blueprints, ready for the day they'll be wardecced by the Privateers. What is needed is direct action upon these noob corp miners and I would like to see it done with a storyline based on something like this... Concord have recieved details of an undesirable element infiltrating the starter corps of EVE. Unable to pinpoint the culprits and with only limited information they have ordered an edict that any member of those corps who flys a mining barge or exhumer in Empire space will be immediately ordered to surrender their vessel or face the wrath of the assembled Concord fleet. No offense, but this is not a good idea. Why nerf yet another thing in the game due to Macro miners? I hate them as much as the next person does, but I for one am about sick of seeing stuff nerfed or not done at all because of them. CCP needs to come up with and implement an idea that does not involve killing every other honest mining char, literally or not.
Marcus Xavier Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning	Posted - 2007.03.29 00:10:00 - [47] Originally by: Briani Many corps are frustrated at the lack of ore in their home systems and all these corps want to do is mine enough ore to be self sufficient in ships and modules, selling any excess to buy more blueprints, ready for the day they'll be wardecced by the Privateers. What does a corp do when an Alliance strips all the belts in the home system soon after roid respawn... hours before the corp even has a chance to log on and mine their little share of ore? It's not just the macro miners who strip belts and squeeze the little guy. ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis
phillip duncan	Posted - 2007.03.29 17:00:00 - [48] Originally by: Dant Kramble I was gonna fuss that phillip (and others) suggestions almost all had to do with lowering the profitability of CCP at the same time as the macro'ers, but his last suggestion revealed he already knew that :) There is no reasonable way to eliminate the possibility of macromining without cauing huge burdens to either other players or CCP. The best you can hope for is to make it harder -> less profitable. Lots of the suggestions raise the cost of the enterprise. I think without some encourage ment to get them out of NPC corps, its just too easy for them. Granted, they can private corp-hop away from any wardecs as it stands, but that can be made more difficult as well. I think the solution will have to take the form of nipping at lots of margins, rather than one clean act that solves everything. Ultimately though, I'm convinced they are a disease to be managed, not cured. I did suggest in another thread that the time to create a corp should be increased to couple of days. Also a good suggestions was that it takes longer to quite and join another corp based on how many corps you have been a member of in the last month so corp jumping becomes harder and harder to do.
Maam	Posted - 2007.03.29 17:26:00 - [49] Edited by: Maam on 29/03/2007 17:22:41 Every single time this one surfaces, I'll say the same. No, it will become a griefer's free for all. If the desired outcome is /really/ to limit macro miners and ISK farmers then: Limit amount of ore that can be mined a day to 5 hours or so per account Make roids re-pop more often, directly in line with server population Make NPC spawns progressively and randomly tougher, but leave the bounty static All a lot of you want to do is be able to grief people, pure and simple. There's a well known saying that's relevant here. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you."
Reney	Posted - 2007.03.29 17:37:00 - [50] Simple solution to macro miners especially in .5 to .9 Make drones so that they dont auto agress or am i missing something?
shady trader	Posted - 2007.03.29 18:54:00 - [51] Originally by: Reney Simple solution to macro miners especially in .5 to .9 Make drones so that they dont auto agress or am i missing something? Its possible to passive tank a large tech1 barge for at least a 1/4 hour in a 0.8 system again the rats,this was before they boosted the HP of ships a couple of patchs ago. I watch a group of isk farmers do this and they only go into half shields without a shield booster and the regen rate seemed to stabilse against the damage the rats were doing at half sheild. A basic sheild booster set to come on evey so often would give them a permi tank or if they use tech1 strips leave the sheild booster running and stagger the lasers. In <0.8 they will need to be a little more creative or use tech2 ships and fit a proper tank with shield boosters, hardaners and shield power relays without problems. In summery the belt rats can be tank for to long with a basic setup. That needs to happen is drones can be stoped form attacking automaticly and for rats to call in re inforcements so that the damage starts to clime when they are in high sec (in 0.0 and low sec the player pirates increase the damage give time)
Allan Robertson Gallente Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:42:00 - [52] Originally by: Briani There have been many threads on this topic and here's my 0.02 isk worth. Macro miners and isk farmers hiding behind noob corp protection are the bane of many a corps life in an ever crowded universe. Many corps are frustrated at the lack of ore in their home systems and all these corps want to do is mine enough ore to be self sufficient in ships and modules, selling any excess to buy more blueprints, ready for the day they'll be wardecced by the Privateers. What is needed is direct action upon these noob corp miners and I would like to see it done with a storyline based on something like this... Concord have recieved details of an undesirable element infiltrating the starter corps of EVE. Unable to pinpoint the culprits and with only limited information they have ordered an edict that any member of those corps who flys a mining barge or exhumer in Empire space will be immediately ordered to surrender their vessel or face the wrath of the assembled Concord fleet. A solution to the problem of macro mining must not penalize legitimate players, what happens when a player leaves their corp? They are put back into a NPC corp. This idea has been brought up many times and is just stupid as it was the last time. --- Say YES! to Mining Cargo Holds on barges!
Enaria Ferenic Amarr Ordo Ministorum	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:59:00 - [53] Look i think we can all agree that we dislike macro miners and ISK sellers. Its the methods of getting rid of them (or at least reducing their numbers) and the unintended consequences which might result (big spike in minerals prices). I mine on this account and have a combat char on annother account (who after 4 months playing is about to dip his toe into 0.0 with a new corp/allianace...looking forward to it bigtime). Now i mine in semi afk mode (i study while mining), and i'm sure many miners are like me i.e. semi afk, cause mining is easier to do afk/semi afk than mission running and/or ratting. What is needed is some method of 1. Positively id'ing Macro'ers and 2. Once id'ed letting the playerbase 'deal' with them. My combat char has popped a few macro'ers in his time with some mates in neighbouring corp, and great fun it was too. Just my few isk worth on this.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.04.02 07:49:00 - [54] I'm barely 4 days old in this game. I'm a member of an NPC Corp, and I'm a solo miner. I travel around, find belts that haven't vanished, mine my fair share of ore, and save up my ISK at a relatively slow rate to get new ships and new equipment. Do I plan on eventually leaving the NPC Corp, leaving low-security space, and getting involved in actual battles in the future? Maybe. I haven't decided yet. Right now, the thing that I enjoy the most about this game, the part that fills me with the most excitement, is slowly saving up the ISK (through solo mining) to get a new ship. That's the game I love to play. Should that be taken away to force me to play the so-called "real game" of EVE?
Tarminic	Posted - 2007.04.02 09:19:00 - [55] Originally by: Crumplecorn NPC corpers are not playing real game by anyone's definition. It is the safest, most cut off state possible in the game, designed around new players. Fine to stay in the NPC corp if you want, but they should certainly have no priority when balancing the game. Actually, they're playing the real game by my definition. Why should we punish them just because they play differently? My strategy is just to constantly steal from macrominers. Seems to work fairly well in driving them off and I make money off of them too. Go figure. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) It's true, I swear.
William Hamilton	Posted - 2007.04.02 11:22:00 - [56] Just make the NPC corps into real corps with player-run facets. The only difference from a normal corp is that you are dumped into these when you start playing....
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.02 11:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Briani There have been many threads on this topic and here's my 0.02 isk worth. Macro miners and isk farmers hiding behind noob corp protection are the bane of many a corps life in an ever crowded universe. Many corps are frustrated at the lack of ore in their home systems and all these corps want to do is mine enough ore to be self sufficient in ships and modules, selling any excess to buy more blueprints, ready for the day they'll be wardecced by the Privateers. What is needed is direct action upon these noob corp miners and I would like to see it done with a storyline based on something like this... Concord have recieved details of an undesirable element infiltrating the starter corps of EVE. Unable to pinpoint the culprits and with only limited information they have ordered an edict that any member of those corps who flys a mining barge or exhumer in Empire space will be immediately ordered to surrender their vessel or face the wrath of the assembled Concord fleet. Me thinks your a empire roid hugging carebear, that would not know the right end of a 250mm railgun. Much less how to load it. Your 2isk is not worth my time to read that drabble.... Here is a solution...MOVE! to an area where they cant go...If its a real player then he will be in low sec or out in 0.0. If he is a farmer he will stay in empire. Solution two, everyone make sucide alts on their main accounts. Kill the macro users. If you dont have room on your main account...well at least the macro users PAY for their characters. Solution three, learn how to take them out useing game mechanics. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.

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