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Maybe Alphas should have Cloaking I

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Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1169	Posted - 2016.11.18 19:43:49 - [1] - Quote I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Rin Vocaloid2 DUST University Ivy League 42	Posted - 2016.11.18 19:47:39 - [2] - Quote I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?"
Nana Skalski Taisaanat Kotei 20007	Posted - 2016.11.18 19:50:02 - [3] - Quote And here I was thinking about a big ball of Alpha justice dealers rolling thru lowsec and null sec... What a disappointment. =ƒÿ¡ Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò =ƒÜÇ Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him. GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1169	Posted - 2016.11.18 19:52:59 - [4] - Quote Quote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. That's more of an "Is afk cloaking really griefing argument." Which I've never supported. Considering that an alpha and omega account can't be active at the same time, this isn't enabling players to do anything different than they already are. It's not as if an omega could set up an alpha afk cloaker and play on their omega account at the same time. Also, "How can i exploit this." is the right way to think. So bravo. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1170	Posted - 2016.11.18 19:56:13 - [5] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: And here I was thinking about a big ball of Alpha justice dealers rolling thru lowsec and null sec... What a disappointment. =ƒÿ¡ Big ball of Alpha justice dealers are still on the table. This is more a matter of solo or small group play. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 474	Posted - 2016.11.18 19:57:58 - [6] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. With cloaking being limited to Omegas, then there at least is some form of barrier of entry. If Alphas could cloak, there would be none. So I am also sure, that cloaky afk alts is one of the main reasons Alpha does not have a cloak. On a side note, just get rid of local as an intel tool already...
Kojee Sex and Coke Party Negative Ten. 21	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:00:14 - [7] - Quote Dumbest idea ever. As a BitterVet-¬, I would routinely use a cloaked Alpha as a scout. Yes, it would benefit me, but it would make it way too easy for any and all players to basically have essentially a free, untouchable scout if they have a spare computer in the house. Not to mention how epicly ******* broken the whole cloak-align-warp trick is. I, for one, am glad cloaks are disabled for Alphas.
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 2658	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:00:31 - [8] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. Bullshit. It matters for cloaky-MWD-instawarps, where the prototype speed reduction exceeds the MWD speed boost, but outside of that, a prototype is perfectly serviceable for a huge portion of non-covops cloaking applications. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Matthias Ancaladron Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:01:59 - [9] - Quote Never used one, not sure what I'd do with it to be honest if you can't do anything while cloaked iirc. Are cloaks important now? I remember recon ships and stealth bombers having those but it never seemed interesting to use Looking at ships id rather have access to planet stuff/mining/industry but I'm not a pvp guy at heart. I only made this guy to try and get into it actually once I get my wifi turned back on which actually went out on the 15th as my luck would have it.
Rin Vocaloid2 DUST University Ivy League 43	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:02:10 - [10] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Quote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. That's more of an "Is afk cloaking really griefing argument." Which I've never supported. Considering that an alpha and omega account can't be active at the same time, this isn't enabling players to do anything different than they already are. It's not as if an omega could set up an alpha afk cloaker and play on their omega account at the same time. Also, "How can i exploit this." is the right way to think. So bravo. Thank you for the rebuttal. Now that you brought up the Alpha clone limit regarding multi-boxing, I can see how this afk-cloaky thing might not get out of hand. But since this is still new from CCP and they are keeping a close eye on this, we'll have to wait and see if CCP thinks it's ok to allow such a thing. Of course, jumping into null-sec even with a cloak is no guarantee that the Alpha pilot won't get caught in a bubble. Even with a covert ops cloaking device on my Nemesis, I have had a few close calls while traveling through The Great Wildlands uninvited.

Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1170	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:09:30 - [11] - Quote SurrenderMonkey wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. Bullshit. It matters for cloaky-MWD-instawarps, where the prototype speed reduction exceeds the MWD speed boost, but outside of that, a prototype is perfectly serviceable for a huge portion of non-covops cloaking applications. Well, I'm just repeating a common sentiment. Normally, I was satisfied with a prototype, especially if trying to move a standard frigate through hostile space. The whole point of "fly cheap" can be defeated real fast with more expensive modules than necessary. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Rin Vocaloid2 DUST University Ivy League 45	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:10:52 - [12] - Quote Kojee wrote: Dumbest idea ever. As a BitterVet-¬, I would routinely use a cloaked Alpha as a scout. Yes, it would benefit me, but it would make it way too easy for any and all players to essentially have a free, untouchable scout if they have a spare computer in the house. Not to mention how epicly ******* broken the whole cloak-align-warp trick is. I, for one, am glad cloaks are disabled for Alphas. A spare computer is one way to get around it but that's assuming enough players have a spare computer at home. Maybe a potato laptop where you can fly Drakes on a plane. But even then, that has to be a limited number of players.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 134	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:11:31 - [13] - Quote Ehm....no
Matthias Ancaladron Hedion University Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:17:40 - [14] - Quote Kojee wrote: Dumbest idea ever. As a BitterVet-¬, I would routinely use a cloaked Alpha as a scout. Yes, it would benefit me, but it would make it way too easy for any and all players to essentially have a free, untouchable scout if they have a spare computer in the house. Not to mention how epicly ******* broken the whole cloak-align-warp trick is. I, for one, am glad cloaks are disabled for Alphas. Why is cloak warp broken?
Matthias Ancaladron Hedion University Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:21:03 - [15] - Quote Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: Kojee wrote: Dumbest idea ever. As a BitterVet-¬, I would routinely use a cloaked Alpha as a scout. Yes, it would benefit me, but it would make it way too easy for any and all players to essentially have a free, untouchable scout if they have a spare computer in the house. Not to mention how epicly ******* broken the whole cloak-align-warp trick is. I, for one, am glad cloaks are disabled for Alphas. A spare computer is one way to get around it but that's assuming enough players have a spare computer at home. Maybe a potato laptop where you can fly Drakes on a plane. But even then, that has to be a limited number of players. You're talking about my primary laptop lol. I'm on low to medium for all settings with most stuff disabled lol. If I could afford a second laptop I could afford to subscribe and have a not junk laptop to play on and I never would have went inactive on my 2009 account which I just recovered.
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1170	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:22:35 - [16] - Quote Matthias Ancaladron wrote: Never used one, not sure what I'd do with it to be honest if you can't do anything while cloaked iirc. Are cloaks important now? I remember recon ships and stealth bombers having those but it never seemed interesting to use Looking at ships id rather have access to planet stuff/mining/industry but I'm not a pvp guy at heart. I only made this guy to try and get into it actually once I get my wifi turned back on which actually went out on the 15th as my luck would have it. It's not just for pvp, it's for avoiding pvp. In fact, the prototype is not very good for a pvp attacker because of the almost prohibitive targeting delay. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
TigerXtrm KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1792	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:23:49 - [17] - Quote Holy sh*t no. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1170	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:28:56 - [18] - Quote While I understand people might have a negative response. I'm hoping for a discussion, so a few words explaining the reason, or reasons for your position would be appreciated. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Othran Route One 740	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:32:20 - [19] - Quote Maybe people aren't aware that running an alpha and an omega clone concurrently (however you do it) is going to earn you a permaban? Pretty prominent in the EULA and easily detectable if CCP choose to do so : "2. YOUR ACCOUNT You may establish more than one Account for each copy of the Software licensed. You are however not allowed to play EVE by using more than one Account at the same time, unless you pay a subscription fee for each of the Accounts you intend to use for that purpose." That's condition 2 of the EULA guys and affects CCPs revenue stream so best case you'll get hit with a 6 month ban. Far more likely you get permabanned, I think alphas need access to cloaking skills/mods so they understand their options aren't just "jump & be ganked" - from their limited perspective.
Kojee Sex and Coke Party Negative Ten. 23	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:37:16 - [20] - Quote As an addendum to my earlier post... Alphas are really around for one reason: increase player base to drive subscription growth. Practically speaking, I think it makes perfect sense for all the "good ****" to be turned off. I am a BitterVet-¬, yes, however EVE is my drug of choice and I don't want to see my supply run dry. That being said, I think Alphas are great the way they are - a good way to get your fix if you don't want to pay, or a good way to try EVE out if you have no idea if you'll even like it but without being stuck to a 30 day time box.

SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 2660	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:54:46 - [21] - Quote Matthias Ancaladron wrote: Kojee wrote: Dumbest idea ever. As a BitterVet-¬, I would routinely use a cloaked Alpha as a scout. Yes, it would benefit me, but it would make it way too easy for any and all players to essentially have a free, untouchable scout if they have a spare computer in the house. Not to mention how epicly ******* broken the whole cloak-align-warp trick is. I, for one, am glad cloaks are disabled for Alphas. Why is cloak warp broken? Because people are entitled to catch things by just sitting on a gate with an overheated long point, and if that doesn't work it's not fair. "Help, I'm bored with missions!" http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Neadayan Drakhon Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan 318	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:55:54 - [22] - Quote Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks. Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever). Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 18198	Posted - 2016.11.18 20:59:48 - [23] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? How bout we give it a few weeks and see how the current skillset works out? "Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming." Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1170	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:04:56 - [24] - Quote Neadayan Drakhon wrote: Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks. Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever). Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play. That's why I'm arguing for Cloaking 1. You can't taste something without giving it a try. Completely locking out cloaking doesn't give them a chance to try it. Ergo, it defeats the concept of the alpha state. Also, prototype cloaks are hardly fully functional. Fully functional would be covops cloaks, and covops ships. Freeing cloaking one will give a taste of what this mechanic is like, while still maintaining the incentive to upgrade. Also, prototype cloaks don't add to ganking much, it adds to people escaping. The targeting delay gives any alert player time to warp out. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Rin Vocaloid2 DUST University Ivy League 47	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:20:14 - [25] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Neadayan Drakhon wrote: Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks. Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever). Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play. That's why I'm arguing for Cloaking 1. You can't taste something without giving it a try. Completely locking out cloaking doesn't give them a chance to try it. Ergo, it defeats the concept of the alpha state. Also, prototype cloaks are hardly fully functional. Fully functional would be covops cloaks, and covops ships. Freeing cloaking one will give a taste of what this mechanic is like, while still maintaining the incentive to upgrade. Also, prototype cloaks don't add to ganking much, it adds to people escaping. The targeting delay gives any alert player time to warp out. Like I said earlier, let's wait for CCP first. They have the raw data to know and only they can make the call.
Frostys Virpio Yet another corpdot. 2977	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:22:02 - [26] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? How bout we give it a few weeks and see how the current skillset works out? Well if they had cloaking, they would fit even more in your rule.
Frostys Virpio Yet another corpdot. 2977	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:24:20 - [27] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Neadayan Drakhon wrote: Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks. Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever). Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play. That's why I'm arguing for Cloaking 1. You can't taste something without giving it a try. Completely locking out cloaking doesn't give them a chance to try it. Ergo, it defeats the concept of the alpha state. Also, prototype cloaks are hardly fully functional. Fully functional would be covops cloaks, and covops ships. Freeing cloaking one will give a taste of what this mechanic is like, while still maintaining the incentive to upgrade. Also, prototype cloaks don't add to ganking much, it adds to people escaping. The targeting delay gives any alert player time to warp out. We should also give them cyno I then so they can try it right? Then might as well give them battle ship I so they can try that too. And carrier because they need to try it. Might as well not limit them. Oh and just so they can try it all in a somewhat decent time line, make it so they train faster than Omega because they have quite some catch up to to if they want to try titans to see if it's interesting enough to sub.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45791	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:24:22 - [28] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Quote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. That's more of an "Is afk cloaking really griefing argument." Which I've never supported. Considering that an alpha and omega account can't be active at the same time, this isn't enabling players to do anything different than they already are. It's not as if an omega could set up an alpha afk cloaker and play on their omega account at the same time. Also, "How can i exploit this." is the right way to think. So bravo. Even with the limit on logging in alphas, wormhole space would end up with multiple alphas in every hole as an Intel network. People would just log them on, check the hole, log the next one on, repeat. Would provide too much Intel in my opinion. At least without a cloak, there's a chance to remove them from a hole. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 440	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:31:58 - [29] - Quote The barrier to entry for an alpha AFK cloaky guy is "another computer capable of running EVE, if only just, preferably from a place with a lot of other players." If someone does this from a university or other building with a lot of people on the same IP address, they won't be able to figure out whose alpha AFK cloaker it is. A signature :o
Francis Raven ExDominion Evictus. 44	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:34:10 - [30] - Quote Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: I think you're asking for a ** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Good way to think considering this is Eve. ExDominion** \| Nullsec Corporation \| Website \| Forums \| Established Nov. 2015 \|

Hal Morsh Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem 556	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:39:20 - [31] - Quote BEcause space would instantaniously be full of characters permanently cloaked, just to make the tears flow. Guarantee it. Course then at complete random the accounts would go omega, online the cyno in space and mass carnage would occur. Which is great because "show info" doesn't tell you which state the clone is in so you must assume 100% of the time it's some fatguy staring you down 24/7 waiting for a shiny loot to drop a cyno. You don't have to be able to use a module to fit it, the module just stays offline till you can use it. I always figured the alpha accounts would creep into more modules with mass forum complaints anyways unless CCP decided to either not let alphas on the forums or not listen. I shall call it the "whine creep" instead of "power creep". Being sapient can drive us mad.
Engage You Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 4	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:46:07 - [32] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: And here I was thinking about a big ball of Alpha justice dealers rolling thru lowsec and null sec... What a disappointment. =ƒÿ¡ maybe if alpha clones werent so limited and literally useless other than to gank pods in jita make alpha clones great again and remove the racial skills limit, make it free training of up to 5mil sp and then maybe people can have some fun other that that alpha clones are nothing but unlimited trial, I mean theyre even worse than trial because so limited on the skills you can train
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1655	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:48:34 - [33] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this....The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. The porosity of low/null territories is most affected by wormholes, then jump drives, then bubble immune interceptors and explo strategic cruisers. Gate to gate travel with a cloak is about the least efficient or threatening way to move into someone's space. Hence the insta-lock svipul illness at choke points. AFK cloaky alphas would be a pox on space, limiting it's use. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1171	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:50:29 - [34] - Quote Chopper Rollins wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this....The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. The porosity of low/null territories is most affected by wormholes, then jump drives, then bubble immune interceptors and explo strategic cruisers. Gate to gate travel with a cloak is about the least efficient or threatening way to move into someone's space. Hence the insta-lock svipul illness at choke points. AFK cloaky alphas would be a pox on space, limiting it's use. Prototype cloaks can't warp cloaked. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 1098	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:52:43 - [35] - Quote Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!! Then Ill make a suggestion.... This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time. But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience." Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1171	Posted - 2016.11.18 21:55:02 - [36] - Quote Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!! Then Ill make a suggestion.... This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time. But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience." I like the idea of cloaks requiring fuel. An hour or two of cloaked time seems good if one can easily resupply. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45791	Posted - 2016.11.18 22:25:56 - [37] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Prototype cloaks can't warp cloaked. Yes, but they only need to be in d-scan range of something to be able to tell what is there. Don't really need to warp cloaked for that. Additionally, with grids being so big now, it's possible to set up a bookmark a few thousand km away from a POS, etc. and then if you can cloak on grid, sit there and watch and gather intel. Nothing the locals can do even if they see you arrive on grid. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 1098	Posted - 2016.11.18 22:35:31 - [38] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!! Then Ill make a suggestion.... This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time. But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience." I like the idea of cloaks requiring fuel. An hour or two of cloaked time seems good if one can easily resupply. No! Far to long and far to efficient. What I am suggesting is max 15 mins more like 2-5mins or even a GTFO sort of option that burns your cloak for 1-2mins of usage like the PANIC or the capital DCU does but without the speed nerf or just a minimal one at best but it burns out after ONE usage and must be replaced in a station. Or even a long nanite paste repair option that leaves you unable to warp for the duration of the repair, say 5-10mins, like a siege or cyno cycle which also gives you a 15 min log off timer. Invulnerability must be balanced by vulnerability. Anything burning fuel MUST be scannable by combat probes like hard to probe ships using the 1.08 formula as a base point for this but not necessarily seen on dscan. And that fuel must not last for longer than 10-30mins at MOST, maybe an hour and must consume considerable space in the cargo hold in order to do so. Think stront size or bigger actual fuel blocks or charges much like the new command bursts but larger in m3 size. In fact this would be a new way to use some of the other materials currently underused in production to give them some love. In fact both of these ideas could make two new cloaks or one with the option to use the fuel and you get the second option and without, like an ancillary, burns it out like the first. Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 103	Posted - 2016.11.18 22:43:39 - [39] - Quote I know CCP could add another class of clone. Lets call them Omegas, so you can cloak and all sort of other things and here is the really exciting part. CCP which is a business actually makes money. TLDR; NO
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45793	Posted - 2016.11.18 23:00:46 - [40] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: I know CCP could add another class of clone. Lets call them Omegas Maybe you missed the memo. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari

PopeUrban El Expedicion Flames of Exile 220	Posted - 2016.11.18 23:09:28 - [41] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: Quote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. That's more of an "Is afk cloaking really griefing argument." Which I've never supported. Considering that an alpha and omega account can't be active at the same time, this isn't enabling players to do anything different than they already are. It's not as if an omega could set up an alpha afk cloaker and play on their omega account at the same time. Also, "How can i exploit this." is the right way to think. So bravo. Even with the limit on logging in alphas, wormhole space would end up with multiple alphas in every hole as an Intel network. People would just log them on, check the hole, log the next one on, repeat. Would provide too much Intel in my opinion. At least without a cloak, there's a chance to remove them from a hole. This. I've already started two alpha accounts specifically for hole babysitting, and they are only balanced by the fact that they're totally probable and killable while probing out chains, so I have to basically log them out if anything suspect appears on dscan to avoit getting ganked ,and a good prober still has a decent chance to catch me about half of the time due to my own laziness with dscan or the 30 second logout timer. Letting me have t1 cloaks for these accounts would remove everything that currently limits me from simplly tracking every wormhole I have even a passing interest in. Even at alpha training speed I could take a basic t1 cloaky wormhole sitting alt from new character to fully capable of scanning down chains in a week, and they're flying a ship that costs like 8 million ISK, most of that being faction probes. Currently I have six "soft trackers" from the alpha clone system, and two "hard trackers" on my omega accounts, so I can really only keep track of two occupied holes reliably, while the other ones are only useful when nobody is home. And I mostly just use them to keep track of lightly defended wormhole industry corps for occasional ganking. You do not want ME to have the power to park infinite cloaky scan alts, and there are a lot of people with far more friends and money and far less fucks than me.
Solonius Rex F0RCED ENTRY Domestic Disturbance 368	Posted - 2016.11.18 23:31:27 - [42] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? If they created a new cloaking module with a long cooldown and timed activation, id be in favor of it. Maybe like a "Sub-standard prototype cloaking device" that lasts for like 2 minutes and has a 5 minute cooldown?
Zappity Horde Vanguard. Pandemic Horde 3060	Posted - 2016.11.18 23:34:04 - [43] - Quote Of course new alphas should be able to use cloaks. The problem is that alpha alts should not be able to use them. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Skydell Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums 680	Posted - 2016.11.19 00:09:21 - [44] - Quote proto cloaks would be a false sense of security and would fit right in to the EVE line of thought. I'd still vote no but truth be told, they would be impotent.
NEONOVUS Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us 999	Posted - 2016.11.19 01:24:00 - [45] - Quote I have logged in just so I can say, NO. If they want to use the a in alpha for afk, they're going to pay for all the forms to be redone as afk cloaker and off of alpha clone.
Remiel Pollard Shock Treatment Ministries 7920	Posted - 2016.11.19 01:27:48 - [46] - Quote I say yes, let's do it. Give alpha's one month of access to cloaking, of any kind, and let people see what kind of damage it would cause first hand. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Aaron Stain Syndicate 416	Posted - 2016.11.19 01:29:31 - [47] - Quote I am in full agreement with the OP. It will be difficult for solo alphas to operate in low/npc null sec without the ability to cloak. I suppose an alpha players home will be high sec and possibly sov space. I think it's great that Eve is now FTP and its possible for people to get a good taste of Eve at no charge, it might be a little bit cheeky asking for cloaking to be added to alpha clones. If you don't ask you don't get. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Rin Vocaloid2 DUST University Ivy League 52	Posted - 2016.11.19 02:31:25 - [48] - Quote It seems to me that the majority of the people here replying have a valid argument that allowing Alpha Clones to use even the most rudimentary of cloak modules could cause some problems as already described above in multiple posts by different players who have experience in wormholes and null-sec. At first my initial reply was more like 'No, don't allow cloaks on Alphas' but then when the OP explained the argument I was like 'Ok, that doesn't sound like a bad idea'. Then came the rest of you guys who put forth a stronger counter-argument and I was like 'Oh ****, nevermind'.
Rin Vocaloid2 DUST University Ivy League 52	Posted - 2016.11.19 02:35:44 - [49] - Quote Aaron wrote: I am in full agreement with the OP. It will be difficult for solo alphas to operate in low/npc null sec without the ability to cloak. I suppose an alpha players home will be high sec and possibly sov space. I think it's great that Eve is now FTP and its possible for people to get a good taste of Eve at no charge, it might be a little bit cheeky asking for cloaking to be added to alpha clones. If you don't ask you don't get. Now that hindsight has kicked me straight in the groin, I have to say that Alphas at the stage they are currently in are not likely to be that invested in going into null-sec alone. If they are going into null-sec or even wormhole space, they are more likely to do it with a group of friends which is probably why there are so many corporations recruiting them right now near or at the starter systems. Honestly, I don't think an Alpha needs access to cloaking if they have safety in numbers due to the corps they are likely to join such as Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, Eve University, etc.
David Grogan The Motley Crew Reborn End of Life 336	Posted - 2016.11.19 03:38:51 - [50] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? no the players objected to alphas having cloak and cyno ability the reason is obvious 1. afk cloaky would be incredibly abused 2. hotdrops would be incredibly abused 1+2 or 1 or 2 would mean pl or nc or goons would own every system in low/null and eve would die as noone else would bother go to null ccp was right to restrict it dont like the restriction buy a plex or sub Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.

Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1176	Posted - 2016.11.19 04:43:06 - [51] - Quote David Grogan wrote: no the players objected to alphas having cloak and cyno ability the reason is obvious 1. afk cloaky would be incredibly abused 2. hotdrops would be incredibly abused 1+2 or 1 or 2 would mean pl or nc or goons would own every system in low/null and eve would die as noone else would bother go to null ccp was right to restrict it dont like the restriction buy a plex or sub Ok, I'm not arguing in any way shape or form for cyno ability, so I don't see why you would use it as a counter argument. Second, I'm omega, this isn't about me whining for something I don't have. Covops is essential for maintaining a trade network in null. I still don't buy the afk cloaker argument in whole. It sounds like it could be fixed with a fuel requirement for the prototype cloak. Neadayan Drakhon wrote: Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks. Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever). Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play. Safety green means no LS or Nulle, not sure if green blocks wh access too. Doesn't that sound a bit much? How can people taste LS or Null lifestyle if they can't get there? Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: Now that hindsight has kicked me straight in the groin, I have to say that Alphas at the stage they are currently in are not likely to be that invested in going into null-sec alone. If they are going into null-sec or even wormhole space, they are more likely to do it with a group of friends which is probably why there are so many corporations recruiting them right now near or at the starter systems. Honestly, I don't think an Alpha needs access to cloaking if they have safety in numbers due to the corps they are likely to join such as Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, Eve University, etc. While there is of course safety in numbers why is having alpha swarms the only option for alphas to explore a good thing? Like I said in the beginning. If people can taste something then they will want more. So they can mine with crappy skills, so an alpha will want more. If players have to base their gameplay around not having an ability, as opposed to have an impaired ability, then they will not feel the incentive for more. Frostys Virpio wrote: We should also give them cyno I then so they can try it right? Then might as well give them battle ship I so they can try that too. And carrier because they need to try it. Might as well not limit them. Oh and just so they can try it all in a somewhat decent time line, make it so they train faster than Omega because they have quite some catch up to to if they want to try titans to see if it's interesting enough to sub. Ok, this is a straw man argument. It is not a counter argument to my argument, it is you arguing with yourself. Congratulations, you won. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Rin Vocaloid2 DUST University Ivy League 56	Posted - 2016.11.19 05:58:01 - [52] - Quote @OP That would require a brand new module that has to undergo internal play testing, Singularity testing, rebalancing, more testing and then deploying it in a separate release or update. Even if CCP starting doing that today for a very-limited-cloaky module that needs fuel, it will be a while before we see any progress made. Again, this is CCP's call as they have the raw numbers.
DSpite Culhach 315	Posted - 2016.11.19 07:48:17 - [53] - Quote Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: Kojee wrote: Dumbest idea ever. As a BitterVet-¬, I would routinely use a cloaked Alpha as a scout. Yes, it would benefit me, but it would make it way too easy for any and all players to essentially have a free, untouchable scout if they have a spare computer in the house. Not to mention how epicly ******* broken the whole cloak-align-warp trick is. I, for one, am glad cloaks are disabled for Alphas. A spare computer is one way to get around it but that's assuming enough players have a spare computer at home. Maybe a potato laptop where you can fly Drakes on a plane. But even then, that has to be a limited number of players. I'm not saying you are wrong - because you are not - but that is breaking the EULA. You should not have an Alpha and an Omega logged in at the same time "helping" each other, as that would put at risk the Omega account. Does not stop a family with 2-3 kids to have mommy or daddy teach them just enough to play that part though, as having a separate human being at the keyboard just long enough to fly somewhere, cloak up and go AFK is perfectly fine, then mommy/daddy can easily just "look over" at the other screen for instant intel, which would be skirting the rules but not breaking them. I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Sitting Bull Lakota SBL Co 226	Posted - 2016.11.19 07:52:11 - [54] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Even with the limit on logging in alphas, wormhole space would end up with multiple alphas in every hole as an Intel network. People would just log them on, check the hole, log the next one on, repeat. Would provide too much Intel in my opinion. At least without a cloak, there's a chance to remove them from a hole. We can safely assume that wspace is quickly saturating with alphas, and this method you describe is being used. The chances of catching an alpha who's in and out within 3 minutes will be pretty low. Most scanning will probably be done in warp between safes, and adding a cloak won't add make them noticably easier to catch. I could be completely wrong, though. I think the restriction on multiple logins is the restraint against afk cloaky alphas. The mwd warp trick needs to be seen as an issue independent of wether alphas are allowed to use cloaks. As long as cloaking I doesn't push them over 5m sp, I'm up for it.
DSpite Culhach 315	Posted - 2016.11.19 08:26:05 - [55] - Quote First off, I agree with "it will be abused" and have read a lot of the "ideas to fix cloaks" and how the ideas so far probably don't fix anything, I'm simply proposing new ideas towards a Cloaking 1 skill for Alphas to use the Prototype cloak, and personally, I'm still in two minds about what consequences that might bring that I simply can't think of right now. For the record, it's kind of pointless to simply say things like "it will be abused" when the reality is the "abuse" is a player side effect, same as ganking is a side effect and can-flipping WAS a side effect, etc etc. If you want to stop the so called abuse, then change the Module. The only way Alphas should be using the Prototype ones is in a fully active way, as in, they must to be at the computer watching the damn game and interacting, so just make the cloaks "interactive" to start with. An active cloak is a space warping phenomenon. There is no reason that manual tweaking by the player should not be required on a regular basis to maintain what is essentialy a "cheap cloak" from ~~Walmart~~ EvEMart. When the cloak becomes "unstable", you need to actively do something to fix the problem, or you uncloak and can't simply just hit the module again until "list of ideas", and that "fixing the problem" can't simply be automated. I'm not saying add a Hacking Minigame or a Captcha, but at least get players ideas on stopping it being able to be automated. If this kind of idea breaks AFK cloaky games then simply make it that the higher level cloaks either have extremely long "stable" cycles, like 12+ hours, or no limits at all. I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor 5987	Posted - 2016.11.19 08:31:52 - [56] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. So the answer to getting new players out to Null is to give them cloaks? What about the people in Null recruit Alphas, the alphas set their home station, and they pod jump to their new home? Then there's another option of sending out an escort, where a group will move together and provide safety in numbers. But since your question is actually about extending the skill set of Alpha clones, I have these thoughts immediately: We do not know that not having a cloak is preventing Alphas from enjoying the game We do know that cloaking devices on Omega accounts are routinely used as denial of resource attacks (aka "AFK" cloaking) Many things we do in-game using multiple accounts are restricted in exploitability due to the need for a subscription. Alpha accounts do not require subscription, therefore the exploitability is only restricted by available compute power So here we are, a few days in to Ascension, and people are already complaining that they can't mine enough or cloak enough with Alpha clones. I think people are missing the point of Alpha clones, which is to provide a taster plate of the EVE experience, not a free lunch. Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mephiztopheleze Laphroaig Inc. 1083	Posted - 2016.11.19 09:00:02 - [57] - Quote While I get the OPs point..... I really do. Malcanis' Law will kick in hard, especially for J-Space dwellers. A personal army of 50, free Astero flying, probing alts? The hard line between Alpha and Omega had to be drawn somewhere. I think Cloaks and Cynos is a pretty good place to draw it. Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Agondray Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces 365	Posted - 2016.11.19 09:30:37 - [58] - Quote Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" As it should be. Also Op about the fuel thing you cant just cloak and burn out of a bubble as ive has some pretty massive bubbles, only option would be burn back to the gate which may have gotten camped on the other side or the guy your running you from follows you. "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Pendra Tahyan Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2016.11.19 09:46:49 - [59] - Quote I agree with the OP. Not being able to use any cloaking is esentially robbing the Alpha from the chance to try out Exploration which in my opinion is one of the least boring types of PvE in EVE. Not being able to try exploration esentially means we will get alot of new alpha players trying either mission running or mining and then quitting out of boredom.
Geronimo McVain EVE University Ivy League 247	Posted - 2016.11.19 10:15:00 - [60] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: edit, Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument. If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate. I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp. The problem is, you can seed whole regions with alphas. When you need them, you activate them when not log them out. If you put them in a save spot, it would be easy to avoid problems and still spy on your enemies for free. Cloaking should be limited to Omegas, because you pay for them so the amount of spys is limited by your RL wallet. Alphas don't have this limitation.

Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1180	Posted - 2016.11.19 15:06:27 - [61] - Quote Thank you to everyone that participated in this discussion. I was afraid posting this kind of topic in GD would get me only troll responses, but there were several thoughtful replies. I appreciate it. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
DSpite Culhach 317	Posted - 2016.11.19 17:21:36 - [62] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Thank you to everyone that participated in this discussion. I was afraid posting this kind of topic in GD would get me only troll responses, but there were several thoughtful replies. I appreciate it. It is really unfortunate that this is the kind of game that makes players think "how can I take advantage of this new thing and not get in trouble", and making a ton of Alphas and looking for those ways was one of the things older players thought of. If that had not been the case, the whole idea of giving Alphas a clocking skill - or a bunch of other skills - would not really have been an issue. It's kind of a shame really. I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Salvos Rhoska 1573	Posted - 2016.11.19 18:28:04 - [63] - Quote OP, I completely agree with your impetus of spreading Alphas out of HS. Great goal. Sound purpose. That would be good, in all kinds of ways. But cloaking, as it is now, as others have explained, is not the solution. PvE v PvP Selling CODE licenses! 9.99mil isk! Bid for unique CODE neon edition special agent certificate!
Keno Skir 955	Posted - 2016.11.19 18:45:34 - [64] - Quote Loads of people operate in lowsec without ever fitting a cloak. Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
Mara Pahrdi The Order of Anoyia 1255	Posted - 2016.11.19 19:03:00 - [65] - Quote Make it a "limited prototype cloaking device" and provide it without skills. It has a maximum of 10 minutes of total activation time and can only be activated thrice before burning out for good. When burning out it damages the hull and gets a timer before it can be replaced by another module. Only fits in utility slots Remove standings and insurance.
Salvos Rhoska 1573	Posted - 2016.11.19 19:32:09 - [66] - Quote Cloaking is just about the most powerful advantage to players EVE has ever implemented. The benefit this might give to Alpha characters is counter-intuitive, makes all space safer for a non-subbed account, and is a hotbed for unthinkable exploitation (cos free). Yes, there may result compounding problems from Alphas proliferating in HS and methods/means to encourage their dispersal to other space may be necessary, but cloaking (even as a consumable/short effect) are not really constructive towards this end as weighed against the enormous advantage this gives a free account. PvE v PvP Selling CODE licenses! 9.99mil isk! Bid for unique CODE neon edition special agent certificate!
Zappity Horde Vanguard. Pandemic Horde 3065	Posted - 2016.11.19 19:56:46 - [67] - Quote I could get behind a cycle-timed alpha cloak that turns off after x minutes. But you would need to be able to cancel the effect immediately mid cycle and modules don't work that way. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Bagatur I GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 86	Posted - 2016.11.19 20:00:19 - [68] - Quote No.
Valkyrie Harkonnen Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2016.11.19 20:33:38 - [69] - Quote Don't think alphas were intended to be in low/null sec. Or CCP would give them some sort of cloaking.
Zappity Horde Vanguard. Pandemic Horde 3065	Posted - 2016.11.19 20:35:08 - [70] - Quote Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote: Don't think alphas were intended to be in low/null sec. Or CCP would give them some sort of cloaking. Rubbish. The more that get out of highsec the better in terms of player retention. Joining a decent corp and getting out of highsec are important. But a cloak is not a pre-requisite for this. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Steffles University of Caille Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2016.11.19 20:54:37 - [71] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? -- edit, Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument. If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate. I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp. Can alphas use probes? If so its a simple case of jumping into a travel frigate with a probe launcher and back scanning to high via wormhole. Say you want to go to Fade, you travel out in a frig, scan a wh back to highsec and you're done, can bring in whatever ship you like now. Leave your scanning char or chars (all alphas out in whatever regions you like and your all set for the safest null travel possible) Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Zappity Horde Vanguard. Pandemic Horde 3067	Posted - 2016.11.19 21:34:32 - [72] - Quote Steffles wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? -- edit, Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument. If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate. I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp. Can alphas use probes? If so its a simple case of jumping into a travel frigate with a probe launcher and back scanning to high via wormhole. Say you want to go to Fade, you travel out in a frig, scan a wh back to highsec and you're done, can bring in whatever ship you like now. Leave your scanning char or chars (all alphas out in whatever regions you like and your all set for the safest null travel possible) There's an easier way to get to Fade. Just join Pandemic Horde and remote your medical clone to 7RM. We have a jump bridge into Fade. You should try it. NPC corps are the worst. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Hal Morsh Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem 561	Posted - 2016.11.20 02:33:02 - [73] - Quote DSpite Culhach wrote: Does not stop a family with 2-3 kids to have mommy or daddy teach them just enough to play that part though, as having a separate human being at the keyboard just long enough to fly somewhere, cloak up and go AFK is perfectly fine, then mommy/daddy can easily just "look over" at the other screen for instant intel, which would be skirting the rules but not breaking them. Well it isn't automation but then there's the possibility that the "Self destruct" gets pressed because it's either just funny, or it's funny to see you freak out. Being sapient can drive us mad.
Steffles University of Caille Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2016.11.20 03:25:53 - [74] - Quote Zappity wrote: Steffles wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? -- edit, Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument. If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate. I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp. Can alphas use probes? If so its a simple case of jumping into a travel frigate with a probe launcher and back scanning to high via wormhole. Say you want to go to Fade, you travel out in a frig, scan a wh back to highsec and you're done, can bring in whatever ship you like now. Leave your scanning char or chars (all alphas out in whatever regions you like and your all set for the safest null travel possible) There's an easier way to get to Fade. Just join Pandemic Horde and remote your medical clone to 7RM. We have a jump bridge into Fade. You should try it. NPC corps are the worst. Already there :) Infinity Ziona alt, not playing EvE atm though playing a necro on p1999 - EQ classic server - rediculously difficult but fun. Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Aaron Stain Syndicate 416	Posted - 2016.11.20 03:57:41 - [75] - Quote I know of pilots who can scan down your location within the time it takes to safe log off, when I logged in an hour later I found a bubble and a small fleet waiting at my safe spot. There are counters to cloaking, you have to be skilled enough to execute them. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Zappity Horde Vanguard. Pandemic Horde 3070	Posted - 2016.11.20 06:47:22 - [76] - Quote Aaron wrote: I know of pilots who can scan down your location within the time it takes to safe log off, when I logged in an hour later I found a bubble and a small fleet waiting at my safe spot. There are counters to cloaking, you have to be skilled enough to execute them. You can dscan for probes while safe logging btw. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45810	Posted - 2016.11.20 07:13:34 - [77] - Quote Ok, so after a post by Cagali in twitter, I'm sort of agreeing with the need for some sort of cloak capability. Since alphas can't use any of the better haulers (eg. blockade runner), having access to MWD/Cloak trick isn't a bad idea. Something that is a much weaker cloak, maybe with a 1 minutes cooldown timer so they could be probed if used tactically for intel, but still something that lets them move stuff past gate camps, particularly in lowsec. I think having read that point, it has merit. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Steffles University of Caille Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2016.11.20 07:40:27 - [78] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Ok, so after a post by Cagali in twitter, I'm sort of agreeing with the need for some sort of cloak capability. Since alphas can't use any of the better haulers (eg. blockade runner), having access to MWD/Cloak trick isn't a bad idea. Something that is a much weaker cloak, maybe with a 1 minutes cooldown timer so they could be probed if used tactically for intel, but still something that lets them move stuff past gate camps, particularly in lowsec. I think having read that point, it has merit. Isn't the whole point to get people playing and then subscribing so they can get these benefits? I see that as a good reason to subscribe for an Omega, not a reason to make it more viable for staying an alpha. Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45810	Posted - 2016.11.20 07:46:31 - [79] - Quote Steffles wrote: Isn't the whole point to get people playing and then subscribing so they can get these benefits? I see that as a good reason to subscribe for an Omega, not a reason to make it more viable for staying an alpha. I don't remember CCP declaring that as the only point, no. If memory serves me correct (and it might not), they have stated by alphas should be a viable way for someone to play the game, regardless of subscription. I suspect that means there will be additional purchasable content coming to encourage people to spend money, even if they are not subscribed. CCP Seagull's interview on Crossing Zebras seems to support my recollection rather than a more limited point: http://crossingzebras.com/the-alpha-and-omega-executive-producer-ccp-seagull-interview/ So, whether it is the whole point or not, it's still possible to have a different view and to express it. If you don't share the same view, no problems. We are all different, but I have nothing I can recall from CCP that the only point of Alphas is as a path to Omegas. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 1101	Posted - 2016.11.20 08:34:11 - [80] - Quote You need only two features. "Get Outta Dodge" which lasts 10-30seconds tops and a lil longer I need to sit and wait this out which is 10-30mins max. Any longer and you can either log off or run away and if you are caught that badly then yeah its just your time to die. The ability to move, faster than the normal cloak, but for a much more limited time frame can be both used offensively(limited really due to recalibration) and defensively much more so. Fuel usage to limit the time able to stay cloaked limits duration of usage so you cant sit and cloak and camp. Couple that with the ability for high end 1.08 formula probing to find your safe even if your cloaked. Much like if your moving cloaked you leave a "wake" in space that can be found so the faster you move the easier it is to probe you. Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.

Steffles University of Caille Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2016.11.20 08:35:52 - [81] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Steffles wrote: Isn't the whole point to get people playing and then subscribing so they can get these benefits? I see that as a good reason to subscribe for an Omega, not a reason to make it more viable for staying an alpha. I don't remember CCP declaring that as the only point, no. If memory serves me correct (and it might not), they have stated that alphas should be a viable way for someone to play the game, regardless of subscription. I suspect that means there will be additional purchasable content coming to encourage people to spend money, even if they are not subscribed. CCP Seagull's interview on Crossing Zebras seems to support my recollection rather than a more limited point (around the 5 minutes mark onwards and specifically at the 10:18 mark onwards): http://crossingzebras.com/the-alpha-and-omega-executive-producer-ccp-seagull-interview/ CCP Seagull in CZ audio wrote: ...because we want it to be possible to play Eve Online as an alpha forever... Interesting. Fair enough. Still against free accounts having any form of cloaking given the afk cloaking issues already in game. Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45811	Posted - 2016.11.20 08:42:29 - [82] - Quote Steffles wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Steffles wrote: Isn't the whole point to get people playing and then subscribing so they can get these benefits? I see that as a good reason to subscribe for an Omega, not a reason to make it more viable for staying an alpha. I don't remember CCP declaring that as the only point, no. If memory serves me correct (and it might not), they have stated that alphas should be a viable way for someone to play the game, regardless of subscription. I suspect that means there will be additional purchasable content coming to encourage people to spend money, even if they are not subscribed. CCP Seagull's interview on Crossing Zebras seems to support my recollection rather than a more limited point (around the 5 minutes mark onwards and specifically at the 10:18 mark onwards): http://crossingzebras.com/the-alpha-and-omega-executive-producer-ccp-seagull-interview/ CCP Seagull in CZ audio wrote: ...because we want it to be possible to play Eve Online as an alpha forever... Interesting. Fair enough. Still against free accounts having any form of cloaking given the afk cloaking issues already in game. If there was something like a civilian cloak with a normal cycle, but then a 1 minute cool down before reactivation, it wouldn't be useful for anything other than MWD/cloak trick. That's the sort of thing Cagali was getting at on reddit. A severely gimped capability with lots of problems. Just enough to help T1 haulers through gate camps of high risk highsec systems. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Steffles University of Caille Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2016.11.20 09:28:24 - [83] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Steffles wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Steffles wrote: Isn't the whole point to get people playing and then subscribing so they can get these benefits? I see that as a good reason to subscribe for an Omega, not a reason to make it more viable for staying an alpha. I don't remember CCP declaring that as the only point, no. If memory serves me correct (and it might not), they have stated that alphas should be a viable way for someone to play the game, regardless of subscription. I suspect that means there will be additional purchasable content coming to encourage people to spend money, even if they are not subscribed. CCP Seagull's interview on Crossing Zebras seems to support my recollection rather than a more limited point (around the 5 minutes mark onwards and specifically at the 10:18 mark onwards): http://crossingzebras.com/the-alpha-and-omega-executive-producer-ccp-seagull-interview/ CCP Seagull in CZ audio wrote: ...because we want it to be possible to play Eve Online as an alpha forever... Interesting. Fair enough. Still against free accounts having any form of cloaking given the afk cloaking issues already in game. If there was something like a civilian cloak with a normal cycle, but then a 1 minute cool down before reactivation, it wouldn't be useful for anything other than MWD/cloak trick. That's the sort of thing Cagali was getting at on twitter. A severely gimped capability with lots of problems. Just enough to help T1 haulers through gate camps and high risk highsec systems. Your underestimating EvE players. Bottings not allowed but there are clearly bots in game. Automated imputs are not allowed but there are definitely a lot of players using them in PvP - theres a player who comes into 7rm pretty much everyday in 4 inties who's been reported repeatedly and nothing is done about him. Very simple to make a script that warps you to safes, cloaks up, warps to new safes, cloaks up, add a few random delays. If you get banned change your vpn server do it again. Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Major Xadi Mercenary Logistics Ltd. xUNITYx 71	Posted - 2016.11.20 14:51:19 - [84] - Quote Mephiztopheleze wrote: While I get the OPs point..... I really do. Malcanis' Law will kick in hard, especially for J-Space dwellers. A personal army of 50, free Astero flying, probing alts? The hard line between Alpha and Omega had to be drawn somewhere. I think Cloaks and Cynos is a pretty good place to draw it. While a personal army could do the job just as easily in T1 explo frigs, they won't be able to do it in Asteros because they can't cross train. But geeez, the logging in and out.
Josef Djugashvilis 3490	Posted - 2016.11.20 15:05:10 - [85] - Quote 7/10 for trolling. Hell, and I like cloaky campers, especially the afk ones who strike fear into the heart of tough guy null sec folk :) This is not a signature.
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1192	Posted - 2016.11.20 15:50:06 - [86] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: 7/10 for trolling. Hell, and I like cloaky campers, especially the afk ones who strike fear into the heart of tough guy null sec folk :) Not all controversial topics are trolls. I was definitely more interested in discussion. You know, people have a starting position, then modify their position based on the comments made by others. And reading through the thread, that's what I got. Only one person responded with insult, there were a couple monosyllabic responses, but most replies have been serious and thoughtful. While I'd like to think the tone of the op determined the tone of the thread, maybe I just lucked out this time. Obviously, my intention was to bring others to my point of view, but that hasn't happened much. More, I found myself modifying my own stance. I edited the op to include the idea to make cloaks require fuel, but that was not my idea, it came from Eternus8lux8lucis down thread. Also, the idea to make a cloak only good for 1 minute came up in thread, which would be good for getting past gate camps, but not much else. This was another idea that came up in thread and not from me. So I am happy with where this thread has gone so far but not because I was trolling. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Aaron Caldari Provisions Caldari State 416	Posted - 2016.11.20 21:03:08 - [87] - Quote Zappity wrote: Aaron wrote: I know of pilots who can scan down your location within the time it takes to safe log off, when I logged in an hour later I found a bubble and a small fleet waiting at my safe spot. There are counters to cloaking, you have to be skilled enough to execute them. You can dscan for probes while safe logging btw. Yes for sure. I'm just responding to folks who think there is no counter to cloaking. I know what I speak of is time consuming but very rewarding if you can pull it off. If the cloaker does see a probe on dscan he will have to warp to another safe and recloak and then attempt safe logoff when there are no probes on dscan. It seems the best one can do is stop a cloaker logging off or possibly kill him when he logs back in if he really has to go afk. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Aaron Caldari Provisions Caldari State 416	Posted - 2016.11.20 21:10:56 - [88] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: 7/10 for trolling. Hell, and I like cloaky campers, especially the afk ones who strike fear into the heart of tough guy null sec folk :) Not all controversial topics are trolls. I was definitely more interested in discussion. You know, people have a starting position, then modify their position based on the comments made by others. And reading through the thread, that's what I got. Only one person responded with insult, there were a couple monosyllabic responses, but most replies have been serious and thoughtful. While I'd like to think the tone of the op determined the tone of the thread, maybe I just lucked out this time. Obviously, my intention was to bring others to my point of view, but that hasn't happened much. More, I found myself modifying my own stance. That is btw required for any discussion. It is useless to expect or hope for others to change their position, if you are unwilling to change your own. I edited the op to include the idea to make cloaks require fuel, but that was not my idea, it came from Eternus8lux8lucis down thread. Also, the idea to make a cloak only good for 1 minute came up in thread, which would be good for getting past gate camps, but not much else. This was another idea that came up in thread and not from me. So I am happy with where this thread has gone so far but not because I was trolling. If alphas did have cloaking It would make the game better imo, I know many people would create new accounts just so they could put a cloaky in their enemies systems. More people logged into the game means more pvp opportunities. Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Jennifer Sarah Connelly Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2016.11.21 01:16:43 - [89] - Quote I played Eve for 2 months about a year ago. I really didn't like the subscription based model. I was used to the Freemium model in World of Tanks. I basically spent my time toodling around in WH space and Null using a cloaked ship. I got gate camped once and for careless once while opening a site. I noted that Eve had opened up the pay wall and so I created an alpha thinking I could do exploration as it is the most interesting PVE (in my limited experience). Then I read that you can't use cloaks and was disappointed. But then I have had a change of heart and think I will just try exploration again without the cloak. It will just keep me on my toes more. I am a bit worried that I won't have the skill set to be able to open the containers though. I seem to remember that you needed quite a lot of skills to be able to do it with reliability.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5528	Posted - 2016.11.21 01:35:02 - [90] - Quote Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Considering you can't log in more than one....not sure this will happen. Especially with cloaking 1. They'll have a ship with a prototype cloak and that is about it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 111	Posted - 2016.11.21 01:43:17 - [91] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Considering you can't log in more than one....not sure this will happen. Especially with cloaking 1. They'll have a ship with a prototype cloak and that is about it. You cant log in more than one on a single computer. Its not that hard to whip up some cheap computers that don't have to do much other than log in and display local. Plus I am sure there are ways around it on a single computer, that someone will find if there is that kind of benefit.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5529	Posted - 2016.11.21 01:57:32 - [92] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Considering you can't log in more than one....not sure this will happen. Especially with cloaking 1. They'll have a ship with a prototype cloak and that is about it. You cant log in more than one on a single computer. Its not that hard to whip up some cheap computers that don't have to do much other than log in and display local. Plus I am sure there are ways around it on a single computer, that someone will find if there is that kind of benefit. Right, and lots of people are going to make cheap computers just to AFK cloaky camp...I'll believe it when I see it (on a widespread basis and not just some chump doing it because). And if people do find a work around and log in more than one Alpha on one computer...Hello Exploit and Permaban. Nice knowing you. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Steffles University of Caille Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2016.11.21 02:02:49 - [93] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Considering you can't log in more than one....not sure this will happen. Especially with cloaking 1. They'll have a ship with a prototype cloak and that is about it. You cant log in more than one on a single computer. Its not that hard to whip up some cheap computers that don't have to do much other than log in and display local. Plus I am sure there are ways around it on a single computer, that someone will find if there is that kind of benefit. Right, and lots of people are going to make cheap computers just to AFK cloaky camp...I'll believe it when I see it (on a widespread basis and not just some chump doing it because). And if people do find a work around and log in more than one Alpha on one computer...Hello Exploit and Permaban. Nice knowing you. I wont' say how you can do it because its not allowed in terms of exploits but there is a very simple way to make eve clients think they're on their own pc when they're actually running on the same machine. Sure most people know about that already in any case. As for permabanning. It takes no time at all to train cloaking level 1 for your ibis and getting a free account banned means nothing. Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 112	Posted - 2016.11.21 02:04:04 - [94] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Considering you can't log in more than one....not sure this will happen. Especially with cloaking 1. They'll have a ship with a prototype cloak and that is about it. You cant log in more than one on a single computer. Its not that hard to whip up some cheap computers that don't have to do much other than log in and display local. Plus I am sure there are ways around it on a single computer, that someone will find if there is that kind of benefit. Right, and lots of people are going to make cheap computers just to AFK cloaky camp...I'll believe it when I see it (on a widespread basis and not just some chump doing it because). And if people do find a work around and log in more than one Alpha on one computer...Hello Exploit and Permaban. Nice knowing you. Considering you could build a computer for less than a 1 month sub to EvE and get a cloaky camper for ever, yes a lot of people would do it. All you need is one of those cheap second hand/recycling places and your set. As to permabans possibly but people always have used expolits/bots in the past and I am sure some still do. Giving a free account cloaking is just asking for trouble.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5529	Posted - 2016.11.21 18:07:59 - [95] - Quote Steffles wrote: I wont' say how you can do it because its not allowed in terms of exploits but there is a very simple way to make eve clients think they're on their own pc when they're actually running on the same machine. Sure most people know about that already in any case. As for permabanning. It takes no time at all to train cloaking level 1 for your ibis and getting a free account banned means nothing. Right, CCP is just going to let that kind of thing go. Sure. Yeah, don't think so. My guess is once they find your OMG accounts those will be gone too. But hey, what do I know. How about you literally go do this and test it for us. I love how people come up with the most convoluted approach to literally cheat and then justify it as well. And seriously, you are going to be scared of an ibis with a prototype cloak? HTFU. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5529	Posted - 2016.11.21 18:15:37 - [96] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Considering you could build a computer for less than a 1 month sub to EvE and get a cloaky camper for ever, yes a lot of people would do it. All you need is one of those cheap second hand/recycling places and your set. As to permabans possibly but people always have used expolits/bots in the past and I am sure some still do. Giving a free account cloaking is just asking for trouble. It is amazing how many Eve players understand opportunity cost when it comes to minerals, but completely fail in applying it anywhere else. Yes, I am going to spend my time building and money a 1-2 dozen el-cheapo PCs simply to cloaky camp systems in an t1 frig with a prototype cloak. And in fact dozens and even hundreds of people are going to do this because they have literally nothing better to do with that money or their time. Sure. This is the type of reasoning behind every single instance where people light their hair on fire over minor changes. Oh, and I presume if this change were to go in to effect you'll be one of the people doing it. Right? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 2680	Posted - 2016.11.21 18:55:19 - [97] - Quote The general impression that I have gotten from playing an Alpha for a while is that it isn't meant to fill many of the roles that traditional alts do. Scouting? Nope. (At least not real-time.) Hauling? Nada. (At least not efficiently.) Cyno? Fuggaboutit! Cloaking falls pretty squarely into those roles. Now, if CCP ends up offering intermediate clone states between Alpha and Omega (which, coincidentally, are the beginning and end of the Greek alphabet, so there's plenty of room in between), I'd see a case for cloaking. But not for Alpha. Alpha is the bare minimum to play. It should be limited in what it can do. Relatively Notorious By Association My Many Misadventures I predicted FAUXs
Geronimo McVain EVE University Ivy League 254	Posted - 2016.11.21 19:10:11 - [98] - Quote I'm paying for the opportunity to use a claoking device. Alphas are extended Trial accounts. If you REALLY get into Eve you will make a subscription. If not why devaluate the omega accounts? Every extra abilitie for non paying players devaluates my omega account and causes multiple other problems. IMHO CCP has almost hit the sweet spot to make Alphas viable playing chars while limiting them so that you will be longing for an Omega account after a short time. Eve doesn't have any micropayment (except for skins) so the income from alpha accounts is rather limited while they cost the same as omega accounts. Even if you give CCP a hefty margin of 50% for developement + and profit they are still loosing 6$ per Alpha/month. Alphas are good as they are! Try to convince some Alphas to subsribe instead of making Alphas so good that omegas start to think about going to Alpha!
Josef Djugashvilis 3495	Posted - 2016.11.21 19:44:09 - [99] - Quote Dear Iria, do you have any idea how many 'cloaky' threads there are? Just think of a crazy number, then double it. It was not my intention to insult you, sorry if came across that way. This is not a signature.
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1215	Posted - 2016.11.21 19:45:44 - [100] - Quote Geronimo McVain wrote: Alphas are good as they are! Try to convince some Alphas to subsribe instead of making Alphas so good that omegas start to think about going to Alpha! Ok, this thread is definitely not about "making alphas so good that omegas start to think about going alpha." The idea is to give alphas a very limited cloak so it is easier for them to get in-and-out of lowsec/null. That's pretty much it. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1215	Posted - 2016.11.21 19:46:49 - [101] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: Dear Iria, do you have any idea how many 'cloaky' threads there are? Just think of a crazy number, then double it. It was not my intention to insult you, sorry if came across that way. This is a cloaky thread. There are many like it, but this one is mine. Actually, the focus of this thread is not like other threads. But I did expect many people to associate it with "AAAAGH! afk cloak are cancer." My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Kojee Sex and Coke Party Negative Ten. 26	Posted - 2016.11.21 19:48:27 - [102] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Right, and lots of people are going to make cheap computers just to AFK cloaky camp...I'll believe it when I see it (on a widespread basis and not just some chump doing it because). And if people do find a work around and log in more than one Alpha on one computer...Hello Exploit and Permaban. Nice knowing you. Teckos Pech wrote: It is amazing how many Eve players understand opportunity cost when it comes to minerals, but completely fail in applying it anywhere else. Yes, I am going to spend my time building and money a 1-2 dozen el-cheapo PCs simply to cloaky camp systems in an t1 frig with a prototype cloak. And in fact dozens and even hundreds of people are going to do this because they have literally nothing better to do with that money or their time. Sure. This is the type of reasoning behind every single instance where people light their hair on fire over minor changes. Oh, and I presume if this change were to go in to effect you'll be one of the people doing it. Right? I think you're exaggerating the ** out of what I said. There are a lot of people with more than one computer. , I used to have two or three machines I could have played EVE on if I wanted. Even now, my Ultrabook is at least enough to log in and sit there at a safe while cloaked. It's really not as expensive as you think - if you already have the hardware lying around, it would be super easy to abuse the ** out of cloaks on Alphas. I tested it on release day; not ideal, but definitely doable.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2016.11.21 20:51:44 - [103] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Considering you could build a computer for less than a 1 month sub to EvE and get a cloaky camper for ever, yes a lot of people would do it. All you need is one of those cheap second hand/recycling places and your set. As to permabans possibly but people always have used expolits/bots in the past and I am sure some still do. Giving a free account cloaking is just asking for trouble. It is amazing how many Eve players understand opportunity cost when it comes to minerals, but completely fail in applying it anywhere else. Yes, I am going to spend my time building and money a 1-2 dozen el-cheapo PCs simply to cloaky camp systems in an t1 frig with a prototype cloak. And in fact dozens and even hundreds of people are going to do this because they have literally nothing better to do with that money or their time. Sure. This is the type of reasoning behind every single instance where people light their hair on fire over minor changes. Oh, and I presume if this change were to go in to effect you'll be one of the people doing it. Right? Actually what about the pure lost revenue from CCPs point of view. All those players that currently do pay for cloaky camper alts. Hell it would be worth building a few computers for every player in Null just to keep the other alliances off balance by having cloaky campers in their main solar systems. Now there is an opportunity cost, spend bugger all making a cheap computer and get months of entertainment watching nullbears wet them selves or not spend a tiny amount of money. I would vote for scaring the crap out of enemy alliances. If I had a route in Null or lo I traveled often would I set up a cloaked scout in them and activate them before I go through with cargo? Hell yeah, again spending the time building 8-10 computers so I had a safe path is worth the time and effort. Then you have the biggest reason for CCP not to allow things like cloaking on Alphas, the more they get the less likely they are to pay.
Egsise Special Boat Service. Zombie Ninja Space Bears 10	Posted - 2016.11.22 06:16:51 - [104] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!! Then Ill make a suggestion.... This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time. But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience." I like the idea of cloaks requiring fuel. An hour or two of cloaked time seems good if one can easily resupply. Implied facepalm. Did you just "accidentally" forget wormholes where we always afk cloaked.
Mightylink North Star Line 0	Posted - 2016.11.22 11:04:36 - [105] - Quote I was surprised to see alphas dont even get the prototype cloaking device, I was also surprised they couldn't even use the civilian mining drone, I believe alphas should be able to try all this stuff out but just not be able to get the best tech 2 or faction varients of them.
druishian Clear Flight 0	Posted - 2016.11.22 12:21:52 - [106] - Quote I like the thought of cloaks on alphas it could possibly mean more destruction of players stuff which means more in game money spent to replace things destroyed which means more plexes bought for in game money which makes ccp more money which means more development for the players and since this is big bad pvp eve you all so love this would also mean you would be safe and unsafe at the same time excellent idea just to add this means no corny cloaks like wood burning or steam powered garbage just the ol prototype would be fine
Keno Skir 988	Posted - 2016.11.22 12:31:00 - [107] - Quote Mightylink wrote: I was surprised to see alphas dont even get the prototype cloaking device, I was also surprised they couldn't even use the civilian mining drone, I believe alphas should be able to try all this stuff out but just not be able to get the best tech 2 or faction varients of them. I can understand how with little experience of the game you feel like a lot of things should be available to Alpha clones. The reality is that those of us who do understand, know that a simple thing like a Prototype Cloak can be game breaking. druishian wrote: I like the thought of cloaks on alphas it could possibly mean more destruction of players stuff which means more in game money spent to replace things destroyed which means more plexes bought for in game money which makes ccp more money which means more development for the players and since this is big bad pvp eve you all so love this would also mean you would be safe and unsafe at the same time excellent idea just to add this means no corny cloaks like wood burning or steam powered garbage just the ol prototype would be fine It actually means less destruction of stuff, since cloaky campers in every system makes people undock less. Making sure every subbed player doesn't get a free scout alt is what provides conflict Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï Feel free to contact me regarding my posts, or my 30 Day EvE Buddy Trials \o/
druishian Clear Flight 0	Posted - 2016.11.22 12:43:38 - [108] - Quote see this is the mind set of the eve rats when something hits home they just run away they would rather be in a gank fleet or gate camp there is no real interest in playing the game as it is they would rather cry in bed than have a lil challenge
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1220	Posted - 2016.11.22 14:11:20 - [109] - Quote Egsise wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!! Then Ill make a suggestion.... This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time. But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience." I like the idea of cloaks requiring fuel. An hour or two of cloaked time seems good if one can easily resupply. Implied facepalm. Did you just "accidentally" forget wormholes where we always afk cloaked. Not being able to afk cloak in wh keeps the incentive up for going omega. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Captain Awkward Republic University Minmatar Republic 134	Posted - 2016.11.22 14:27:19 - [110] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Not being able to afk cloak in wh keeps the incentive up for going omega. In order to have a cloaky scout in every C5/C6 wormhole you need a lot of subbed acounts. If alphas could cloak, that number would be reduced to 0.

Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1220	Posted - 2016.11.22 14:33:33 - [111] - Quote Captain Awkward wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: Not being able to afk cloak in wh keeps the incentive up for going omega. In order to have a cloaky scout in every C5/C6 wormhole you need a lot of subbed acounts. If alphas could cloak, that number would be reduced to 0. So would making the prototype cloak require fuel. The goal of this thread is ways to make cloaking viable for transiting alphas, without opening up problems like afk cloaking. Give alphas a taste of cloaking mechanics while still keeping it impaired enough to give incentives to omega. O is not an inherently good number. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Carl Kowalski State War Academy Caldari State 4	Posted - 2016.11.22 14:35:21 - [112] - Quote Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: You need only two features. "Get Outta Dodge" which lasts 10-30seconds tops and a lil longer I need to sit and wait this out which is 10-30mins max. Any longer and you can either log off or run away and if you are caught that badly then yeah its just your time to die. This is, what is missing for alpha pilots: "a get out of jail" card, not permacloak. So I suggest the following changes: - the existing prototype cloak needs cloaking II - alpha clones are allowed to learn cloaking I - a new module "basic cloak" (or so) is added This basic cloak could have the following attributes: - needs cloaking I - when activated cloaks ship for 1 minute - reactivation delay of 5 minutes - when player logged off cloaked, on login the reactivation timer starts at 5 minutes - maybe lower the speed malus a bit, so that this cloak is a viable option for travel fits of omega players too Opinions? Looking for assignment: have missiles, will travel ...
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1220	Posted - 2016.11.22 14:42:20 - [113] - Quote Carl Kowalski wrote: Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: You need only two features. "Get Outta Dodge" which lasts 10-30seconds tops and a lil longer I need to sit and wait this out which is 10-30mins max. Any longer and you can either log off or run away and if you are caught that badly then yeah its just your time to die. This is, what is missing for alpha pilots: "a get out of jail" card, not permacloak. So I suggest the following changes: - the existing prototype cloak needs cloaking II - alpha clones are allowed to learn cloaking I - a new module "basic cloak" (or so) is added This basic cloak could have the following attributes: - needs cloaking I - when activated cloaks ship for 1 minute - reactivation delay of 5 minutes - when player logged off cloaked, on login the reactivation timer starts at 5 minutes - maybe lower the speed malus a bit, so that this cloak is a viable option for travel fits of omega players too Opinions? Only problem I see is the 1 minute max. This pretty much makes the cloak only useful for the cloak-mwd trick. Which is still an option. Useful in ls or hs wars, but no good for bubble camps. I still think it should last long enough to slowboat under the speed malus out of at least one bubble. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Persephone Alleile Tartarus Covert Operations 201	Posted - 2016.11.22 16:36:31 - [114] - Quote I am personally for Alpha clones using prototype cloaks. Possibly because I make my living selling cloaking devices, but also because I think it will make it easier for alphas to get out of hisec.
XxRTEKxX 256th Shadow Wing Phantom-Recon 150	Posted - 2016.11.23 19:59:14 - [115] - Quote Would be nice for wormhole groups to recruit alphas if they could at least fit a cloak. Sucks having to tell alphas they need to sub if they want to come hangout in wormholes.
Kosomot Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2016.11.23 20:08:34 - [116] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Quote: I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes. PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?" Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. That's more of an "Is afk cloaking really griefing argument." Which I've never supported. Considering that an alpha and omega account can't be active at the same time, this isn't enabling players to do anything different than they already are. It's not as if an omega could set up an alpha afk cloaker and play on their omega account at the same time. Also, "How can i exploit this." is the right way to think. So bravo. the difference is Omega local null cloaker is a paying cloaker, in CCP's Minds, that a good reason I am a miner, mission runner, and explorer... or as EVE Online would have it... A Carebear!!
Blix Sativa State War Academy Caldari State 0	Posted - 2016.11.23 20:47:07 - [117] - Quote Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: Aaron wrote: I am in full agreement with the OP. It will be difficult for solo alphas to operate in low/npc null sec without the ability to cloak. I suppose an alpha players home will be high sec and possibly sov space. I think it's great that Eve is now FTP and its possible for people to get a good taste of Eve at no charge, it might be a little bit cheeky asking for cloaking to be added to alpha clones. If you don't ask you don't get. Now that hindsight has kicked me straight in the groin, I have to say that Alphas at the stage they are currently in are not likely to be that invested in going into null-sec alone. If they are going into null-sec or even wormhole space, they are more likely to do it with a group of friends which is probably why there are so many corporations recruiting them right now near or at the starter systems. Honestly, I don't think an Alpha needs access to cloaking if they have safety in numbers due to the corps they are likely to join such as Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, Eve University, etc. I'm new to Eve and I do WH/nullsec exploration alone as an alpha.. It takes some time to scan things down with our limited skills.. Add combat probes constantly appearing on D-Scan on top of that and it gets pretty stressful. In order for me to safely explore null/WH space, I'm constantly warping around creating/deleting bookmarks, while at the same time adjusting my probes. If I do finally find a relic site and hone in on it, I still can't warp to it. I have to keep zigzagging across the system until I feel confident the guy has given up trying to track me down with his combat probes... A decent player can track an alpha player down with combat probes and warp to them faster than we can do a single relic container. ISo I'd be happy with some type of counter-measure that protects us from combat probes and blockades... for example: D-Scan Jammer: Changes the functionality of your D-Scan. When the a signal from an enemy D-Scan or Combat Probe is detected, it floods the signal with additional signals making it impossible for a directional scanner/combat probe to get an accurate reading of your location. When Jammer is activated, you are visible, but it takes much longer for players to lock on to you... and you take WAY longer than that to lock your own targets. Due to the Jammer's interference, you do not get an audio clue that you're being locked on to. (Buys you time to avoid gate camps, like a cloak would, but prevents it from be used to AFK camp. Allows explorers to lock on to their relic/data containers) While the Jammer is equipped, you would have an increased delay after using your D-Scanner, before you can do another scan. You would not be able to D- scan for ships while the Jammer is active or until it has cycled. (Prevents you from using it to scout from far away) Anyhow, like I said... I'm new, so that's just a rough suggestion from someone who knows little of the game mechanics. I'm sure they could come up with something for us Alphas.
Algarion Getz Aideron Corp 243	Posted - 2016.11.23 21:02:04 - [118] - Quote Othran wrote: Maybe people aren't aware that running an alpha and an omega clone concurrently (however you do it) is going to earn you a permaban? Pretty prominent in the EULA and easily detectable if CCP choose to do so : "2. YOUR ACCOUNT You may establish more than one Account for each copy of the Software licensed. You are however not allowed to play EVE by using more than one Account at the same time, unless you pay a subscription fee for each of the Accounts you intend to use for that purpose." That's condition 2 of the EULA guys and affects CCPs revenue stream so best case you'll get hit with a 6 month ban. Far more likely you get permabanned, I think alphas need access to cloaking skills/mods so they understand their options aren't just "jump & be ganked" - from their limited perspective. A lot of players dont know that. If CCP strictly enforces that rule, a lot of players will be banned in the near future. CCPs communication on this important topic is again terribad. No one reads the EULA. They need to put that rule into the launcher.
Mark Marconi Ministry of War Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2016.11.23 23:23:12 - [119] - Quote Algarion Getz wrote: Othran wrote: Maybe people aren't aware that running an alpha and an omega clone concurrently (however you do it) is going to earn you a permaban? Pretty prominent in the EULA and easily detectable if CCP choose to do so : "2. YOUR ACCOUNT You may establish more than one Account for each copy of the Software licensed. You are however not allowed to play EVE by using more than one Account at the same time, unless you pay a subscription fee for each of the Accounts you intend to use for that purpose." That's condition 2 of the EULA guys and affects CCPs revenue stream so best case you'll get hit with a 6 month ban. Far more likely you get permabanned, I think alphas need access to cloaking skills/mods so they understand their options aren't just "jump & be ganked" - from their limited perspective. A lot of players dont know that. If CCP strictly enforces that rule, a lot of players will be banned in the near future. CCPs communication on this important topic is again terribad. No one reads the EULA. They need to put that rule into the launcher. And a lot of players do know that and will easily find a way around it for free cloaking alts. As mentioned above separate cheap computers is an easy work around. After all they don't need to do much other than cloak and show local. Its pretty much a perfect example of Malcanis's law. "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of GÇÿnew playersGÇÖ, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
Natural CloneKiller The Phoenix Rising Vendetta Mercenary Group 265	Posted - 2016.11.24 00:06:08 - [120] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? -- edit, Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument. If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate. I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp. edit2 - Another interesting suggestion is a 1 minute cloak. Such a cloak would be useful for getting past camps, and not much else. Do not be stupid. You are asking for afk scouts. Bad bad blond...get back in your cage.

Valkyrie Harkonnen Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2016.11.24 02:10:43 - [121] - Quote They should have a taste of everything in the game. PI, Cloacking, etc. Make it extremely limited, create special skills for alphas so it doesn't mess the game. If they like it they will subscribe to have the not gimp version of what they like more to do. Start your EVE Online experience with 250.000 extra skill points!
Blix Sativa State War Academy Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.11.24 03:55:34 - [122] - Quote Natural CloneKiller wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha. The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak. With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance. And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription. Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak. Anyway, what do you think? -- edit, Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument. If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate. I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp. edit2 - Another interesting suggestion is a 1 minute cloak. Such a cloak would be useful for getting past camps, and not much else. Do not be stupid. You are asking for afk scouts. Bad bad blond...get back in your cage. Can't players afk scout either way? Have a trash alpha char just sit in a pod near the gate? Oh well if it gets popped... you lost what... the time it took to fly it there? You still get your recon intel.
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1239	Posted - 2016.11.24 04:11:13 - [123] - Quote Natural CloneKiller wrote: Iria Ahrens wrote: -- edit, Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument. If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate. I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp. edit2 - Another interesting suggestion is a 1 minute cloak. Such a cloak would be useful for getting past camps, and not much else. Do not be stupid. You are asking for afk scouts. Bad bad blond...get back in your cage. Don't quote me where I cite limitations that eliminate afk scouts and then insult me. Read. The problem isn't my suggestion. The problem is people having knee-jerk reactions without even making an effort to think about it. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 444	Posted - 2016.11.25 06:46:00 - [124] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Considering you could build a computer for less than a 1 month sub to EvE and get a cloaky camper for ever, yes a lot of people would do it. All you need is one of those cheap second hand/recycling places and your set. As to permabans possibly but people always have used expolits/bots in the past and I am sure some still do. Giving a free account cloaking is just asking for trouble. It is amazing how many Eve players understand opportunity cost when it comes to minerals, but completely fail in applying it anywhere else. Yes, I am going to spend my time building and money a 1-2 dozen el-cheapo PCs simply to cloaky camp systems in an t1 frig with a prototype cloak. And in fact dozens and even hundreds of people are going to do this because they have literally nothing better to do with that money or their time. Sure. This is the type of reasoning behind every single instance where people light their hair on fire over minor changes. Oh, and I presume if this change were to go in to effect you'll be one of the people doing it. Right? Actually what about the pure lost revenue from CCPs point of view. All those players that currently do pay for cloaky camper alts. Hell it would be worth building a few computers for every player in Null just to keep the other alliances off balance by having cloaky campers in their main solar systems. Now there is an opportunity cost, spend bugger all making a cheap computer and get months of entertainment watching nullbears wet them selves or not spend a tiny amount of money. I would vote for scaring the crap out of enemy alliances. If I had a route in Null or lo I traveled often would I set up a cloaked scout in them and activate them before I go through with cargo? Hell yeah, again spending the time building 8-10 computers so I had a safe path is worth the time and effort. Then you have the biggest reason for CCP not to allow things like cloaking on Alphas, the more they get the less likely they are to pay. Someone wanting to AFK cloaky everywhere wouldn't even have to build total systems. They could instead run several Intel Compute Sticks and virtual desktop them all. There's some technical stuff to do for that to work, but it would be a lot less clutter, and no checking for virtual machines would catch this because Compute Sticks are actual physical (if tiny and slow) computers. With the current price of compute sticks, subscribing for a year for each alt would be cheaper. A signature :o
Blix Sativa State War Academy Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.11.25 20:19:12 - [125] - Quote So if afk cloaking is an issue it needs to be handled in another way... Afk cloaking shouldn't be an advantage you get just because someone is willing to spend a bunch of money. There should be mechanics in place that require your interaction, instead of limitting WHO can have them.
Frostys Virpio Yet another corpdot. 2995	Posted - 2016.11.25 20:27:28 - [126] - Quote Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote: They should have a taste of everything in the game. PI, Cloacking, etc. Make it extremely limited, create special skills for alphas so it doesn't mess the game. If they like it they will subscribe to have the not gimp version of what they like more to do. Can I have a taste of capital piloting on my alpha clone please? It's part of everything after all.
Blix Sativa State War Academy Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.11.25 21:14:58 - [127] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote: They should have a taste of everything in the game. PI, Cloacking, etc. Make it extremely limited, create special skills for alphas so it doesn't mess the game. If they like it they will subscribe to have the not gimp version of what they like more to do. Can I have a taste of capital piloting on my alpha clone please? It's part of everything after all. Lets not get carried away... comparing something that is a part of quality of life vs something that would take over a year of training.
Salvos Rhoska 1603	Posted - 2016.11.25 22:02:57 - [128] - Quote Blix Sativa wrote: So if afk cloaking is an issue it needs to be handled in another way... Afk cloaking shouldn't be an advantage you get just because someone is willing to spend a bunch of money. There should be mechanics in place that require your interaction, instead of limitting WHO can have them. That mechanic is called Omega. Inorder to interact as an Omega with EVE, you must sub. Otherwise you must interact with EVE as an Alpha. This is the one place in the known universe where its better to be an Omega, than an Alpha. PvE v PvP Selling CODE licenses! 9.99mil isk! Bid for unique CODE neon edition special agent certificate!
Rin Vocaloid2 DUST University Ivy League 74	Posted - 2016.11.27 19:10:22 - [129] - Quote If any of us here is to suggest a time limit on a cloak module for use in alpha clones, we have to carefully evaluate how they would be balanced first to avoid obvious exploitation by Eve Online players. Remember, before anyone here makes a suggestion, ask yourselves "how can I exploit this?" The suggestion about time limits seems like an old idea originally brought on LOOOOOOONG before the idea of Free to Play even touched the minds of CCP Developers years ago. It was the result of many complaints from null-sec dwellers wanting to address AFK cloaky scouts that just sneak into their system unwanted and just sit in a safe space (I mean spot) while cloaked for hours on end. The pilot is probably fapping to Rule 34 Overwatch images while his Tristan is sitting in null-sec causing a major inconvenience to their local operations out fear that he/she might be a cyno alt. Putting a 1-minute timer as originally suggested seems like an OK plan to address this, but any cloaky pilot who has half a brain can just check in every 50-55 seconds to restart their cloak cycle. A counter to this would be to simply add a cooldown timer that lasts long enough to discourage AFK cloaks forcing them to constantly stay on the move in the system to avoid getting pinpointed by combat probes. But this might not be enough because the cloaky scout has the advantage of never getting pinpointed as long as they pay close attention. The alternative then would be to create an alpha-grade cloak module that requires charges to perform and maintain its function. Since frigates don't often have a lot of cargo space and some of that space is needed to carry ammo if needed, this will limit the total time the player is cloaked inside the system. Once they're out of charges to use on the cloak, they have to either constantly warp between safe spots for a very long time or get the hell out of the system.
Geronimo McVain EVE University Ivy League 256	Posted - 2016.11.27 19:24:59 - [130] - Quote The problem will be to limit the cloaking while keeping it possible to do what you wanted to do in the first place. a 1 minute cloak would allow the MWD trick but it will get you nothing when using it for exploration. IMHO it's okay to keep the cloak from Alphas because the hassle to give them some faulty cloak just to give them some cloak is just not worth it. Alpha is an extended trial and so it has it's limits. Live with it or go omega.

Matthias Ancaladron Hedion University Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2016.11.27 20:46:16 - [131] - Quote Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: If any of us here is to suggest a time limit on a cloak module for use in alpha clones, we have to carefully evaluate how they would be balanced first to avoid obvious exploitation by Eve Online players. Remember, before anyone here makes a suggestion, ask yourselves "how can I exploit this?" The suggestion about time limits seems like an old idea originally brought on LOOOOOOONG before the idea of Free to Play even touched the minds of CCP Developers years ago. It was the result of many complaints from null-sec dwellers wanting to address AFK cloaky scouts that just sneak into their system unwanted and just sit in a safe space (I mean spot) while cloaked for hours on end. The pilot is probably fapping to Rule 34 Overwatch images while his Tristan is sitting in null-sec causing a major inconvenience to their local operations out fear that he/she might be a cyno alt. Putting a 1-minute timer as originally suggested seems like an OK plan to address this, but any cloaky pilot who has half a brain can just check in every 50-55 seconds to restart their cloak cycle. A counter to this would be to simply add a cooldown timer that lasts long enough to discourage AFK cloaks forcing them to constantly stay on the move in the system to avoid getting pinpointed by combat probes. But this might not be enough because the cloaky scout has the advantage of never getting pinpointed as long as they pay close attention. The alternative then would be to create an alpha-grade cloak module that requires charges to perform and maintain its function. Since frigates don't often have a lot of cargo space and some of that space is needed to carry ammo if needed, this will limit the total time the player is cloaked inside the system. Once they're out of charges to use on the cloak, they have to either constantly warp between safe spots for a very long time or get the hell out of the system. Or add cloak fatigue as a modifier with the timer
Carl Kowalski State War Academy Caldari State 8	Posted - 2016.11.28 08:41:14 - [132] - Quote Rin Vocaloid2 wrote: ... Putting a 1-minute timer as originally suggested seems like an OK plan to address this, but any cloaky pilot who has half a brain can just check in every 50-55 seconds to restart their cloak cycle. A counter to this would be to simply add a cooldown timer that lasts long enough to discourage AFK cloaks forcing them to constantly stay on the move in the system to avoid getting pinpointed by combat probes. But this might not be enough because the cloaky scout has the advantage of never getting pinpointed as long as they pay close attention. The alternative then would be to create an alpha-grade cloak module that requires charges to perform and maintain its function. Since frigates don't often have a lot of cargo space and some of that space is needed to carry ammo if needed, this will limit the total time the player is cloaked inside the system. Once they're out of charges to use on the cloak, they have to either constantly warp between safe spots for a very long time or get the hell out of the system. I don't think that theres is anything wrong with getting an advantage by active play. Maybe you should read my proposal in Post 112: This basic cloak could have the following attributes: - needs cloaking I - when activated cloaks ship for 1 minute - reactivation delay of 5 minutes - when player logged off cloaked, on login the reactivation timer starts at 5 minutes - maybe lower the speed malus a bit, so that this cloak is a viable option for travel fits of omega players too All the numbers are to be discussed. But this should help alphas getting out of gate camps and bubbles, and avoid the creation of cloaky campers. Aditionally alphas aren't allowed to train Cynosural Field Theory, so only intel, but no reinforcement. Maybe I am missing a lot of experience and creativity, but how can this be abused? Looking for assignment: have missiles, will travel ...
Vigirr 108	Posted - 2016.11.28 08:55:48 - [133] - Quote ITT: vet alts pretending to be new players in order to push an agenda so they can have more useful, and free, alts. Gee, who'd have thought.
Lienzo Amanuensis 93	Posted - 2016.11.29 06:15:52 - [134] - Quote Cloaking is a very powerful ability to have. By itself it does nothing, but it enables a wide range of collaborative gameplay options. It might be reasonable to have a module or two which fill some of the several actions performed by cloaks. For example, a module which removes or limits a ships visibility to directional scanning. I'm sure we could think of some fun drawbacks to include with that. Another module would be immunity or greater resistance to combat probing. Again, this is bundled into the cloak for whatever reason. I shouldn't pretend to understand any of it. Rather, just accept it as it is and plan accordingly.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 141	Posted - 2016.11.29 07:49:57 - [135] - Quote Even without cloak available for Alphas I noticed a very big change in the wh where I live from the expansion: Several more ships inside all time, every spawned relic/data done in less than half an hour, basically a heavy farmed wormhole. I dunno if it's coincidence or not, but when there is no alpha inside there is some omega inside. My personal opinion is that every explorer is desperately looking for relic/data sites because alphas are laready depleting/farming them all time. If Aplhas have cloak I think we'll have several in each wormhole...
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1291	Posted - 2016.11.29 14:04:32 - [136] - Quote Vigirr wrote: ITT: vet alts pretending to be new players in order to push an agenda so they can have more useful, and free, alts. Gee, who'd have thought. ITT. People who didn't read the thread making sweeping statements about the thread. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 1216	Posted - 2016.11.29 14:07:38 - [137] - Quote no. For obvious reasons.
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 378	Posted - 2016.11.29 18:07:33 - [138] - Quote Cloaky Alphas = " Look mom unlimited scouts and campers!"
Vigirr 121	Posted - 2016.11.30 07:26:23 - [139] - Quote Iria Ahrens wrote: Vigirr wrote: ITT: vet alts pretending to be new players in order to push an agenda so they can have more useful, and free, alts. Gee, who'd have thought. ITT. People who didn't read the thread making sweeping statements about the thread. Explain how this idea won't result in lots of vets having an alpha cloaky scout on a secondary laptop.


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