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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2003.12.26 14:56:00 -
[91]
Edited by: XpoHoc on 26/12/2003 14:57:01
Valeria... there is no point in doing such threads.
Yes it's true what you say, but all the other ppl have no idea what pirating means in this galaxy.
They always think they know it better than you, they always think that all we do all day is looking for exploits and for defenseless ships.
Just don't talk about it, let them talk and well yes adapt once again.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.12.26 15:08:00 -
[92]
 Quote:
So what's the solution? Leave the sentry guns there, and don't PvP in their radius.
Honestly, I don't see any other way to do it. Either way you change it leans too heavily, you either get a lawless enviroment in what is technically empire space, or a total carebear enviroment.. right? I'm sure there's a better solution than the current one, but I haven't thought of one yet. Why not think of a way to improve gameplay instead of trying to be selfish about it? You have to have a balance.
I agree with you entirely Jim. This is the best option at the moment. Its ridiculous to make sweeping changes that skew the environment and doubtless no random chance that CCP have opted to leave it this way while working on further game refinements.
PS
Jash, just leave it why don't you? At the moment you are bleeding credibility with every ridiculous personal attack.
You want change? Work on your argument and try to realise the essential truth in what Jim just concluded.
And quit the armchair psychology, you are so far off the mark it makes you sound like Yosef Cohen.
Love and peace
JF Public Forum |
Leitari
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Posted - 2003.12.26 15:16:00 -
[93]
As I said before there was much discussion if it would be right to change the setup in 0.1 - 0.4 space.(cant find it again though) But I remind you on one thing, there is NO difference between 0.1 and a 0.4 space, so why call it 0.1 space anyways? why just not call it all 0.4 space, its all the same. When you are reaching the borderline to 0.0 space it should be alot more dangerous than a normal 0.4 system.
Here, Only the silent survive.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.26 15:26:00 -
[94]
I especially like how no one seemed to read my point that when we gank a person, that person WILL whine and complain and wonder why we didn't toll him or ask him to stop. That is where the sentry guns come in, they stop us from doing that. Thereby you have no right to complain when we don't stop you and toll you, if you at the same time want sentry guns to remain.
I don't really care if they go or not, we can carry on with what we are doing now, still gives us a decent profit. However, complaining about being ganked should result in an instant account closure for excessive stupidity.
Now let this thread die, you are arguing about irrelevant crap.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.12.26 15:35:00 -
[95]
Quote:
As I said before there was much discussion if it would be right to change the setup in 0.1 - 0.4 space.(cant find it again though) But I remind you on one thing, there is NO difference between 0.1 and a 0.4 space, so why call it 0.1 space anyways? why just not call it all 0.4 space, its all the same. When you are reaching the borderline to 0.0 space it should be alot more dangerous than a normal 0.4 system.
I agree of course Leitari, the system should be better, and there should be more differentiation. And its what most sensible people seem to what.
.1 - .4 should represent a gradual increase of policing and security.
The question is ... what is the difference between Empire and non-empire though?
Realistically, should be quite a lot.
For example,
In empire, (even .1) these systems are claimed by an npc entity. And military challenge to that entity should (eventually) be answered. Even in .1 it should be impossible to round the clock gate camp without the intervention of an npc entity fleet.
(this intervention can be a function of the sec level though, because its obvious that the marginal border will be quicker to receive reinforcement than the inner zone border -.4+)
But regardless, we do come down to Jim's point, a radical change like removing all .4 and less guns (and turning .4 and below into 0.0) is simply too ignorant and clumsy a way of game balancing, called for by people who truly do not understand what they are talking about.
Resolving this situation is going to take patience and delicate game balancing. (Not cheerleading a muppet parade while the devs are away.)
Love and peace
JF Public Forum |
Druanna
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Posted - 2003.12.26 15:46:00 -
[96]
gawd, you're such a troll Jash
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.12.26 15:46:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 26/12/2003 15:48:09
Quote:
I especially like how no one seemed to read my point that when we gank a person, that person WILL whine and complain and wonder why we didn't toll him or ask him to stop. That is where the sentry guns come in, they stop us from doing that. Thereby you have no right to complain when we don't stop you and toll you, if you at the same time want sentry guns to remain.
That point has been addressed many times within this thread and others Valeria. It comes down to this, on balance its prefered that "pirates" have a hard time of controlling gates in .4, and again, on balance, people prefer to take their chances with long range projectile ganking than they would with short range web and torp ganking. (see Veruna's last entry for a practical example of the difference).
Also of course, there is the simple gap in comprehension at play; you say that you'd like to pirate people "properly" with tolls and stuff and .4 - etc. Well, the eve player base is bitten and twice shy about the tender mercies of gank-pirates in empire. To be frank, I don't believe the majority of "pirates" would toll people even if they could. I think they would use the absence of guns to kill more and easier and thats the only motive of most of your band wagon jumpers.
And of course,
For the record ... I'd like to be able to make money trading again. But its not going to happen and you don't see me leading ridiculous forum spam campaigns to try and force a fundimental change to the game rules to advantage me. Doing that would be a farce.
Ultimately I agree with one of your points though.
People shouldn't complain too much about being killed fairly in .4. If it happens it happens. And if it happens from 70klicks then that is the state of play from the game as is.
JF Public Forum |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.26 15:47:00 -
[98]
Quote:
gawd, you're such a troll Jash
Merry Xmas to you too, Druanna.
Now I warned you politely what would happen. Enjoy 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.26 15:52:00 -
[99]
Quote:
Quote:
gawd, you're such a troll Jash
Merry Xmas to you too, Druanna.
Now I warned you politely what would happen. Enjoy
You're not gonna put tangerines in the trifle, are you?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.26 16:23:00 -
[100]
For the record, TomB said it himself during one of the CSMs. Pirates don't complain about the situation enough to make it a priority.
Castor changed the landscape enough that it's time to make it a priority.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Gravedancer
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Posted - 2003.12.26 16:35:00 -
[101]
Quote:
Have you even looked in the .4 > .1 belts since the patch ??? noone mines there anymore because its spawnes BS in those belts... And if someone is mining in the belt near where we are they are getting a fight... but until they get there we watch our gate and its impossible for pirate hunters to catch us now due to we are 50 km away and when they come with 15 BS we just warp away they have no chance as they would have if sentrys wasnt there and we could be closer to the gates
ive been hunting in a .1 system for a few days now, and havent seen anything bigger than a 75k pirate, and that had only about 7 pathetic 12k or less pirates as escort. For sure havent seen anything I would classify as "insane" except out in non empire space. Even the "0.0 Empire space" system in metropolis has pirates about the same as the .1 systems ive looked at, and they actually spawn slower. Non empire space, on the other hand, is totally insane 
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Gravedancer
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Posted - 2003.12.26 16:38:00 -
[102]
Quote:
Alright, I'll spell it out...
You can tank out a Scorpion to take Sentry Gun damage for over a minute. Put that Scorpion at the gate to web and scamble the victim. Request a toll, if they don't pay withing a minute, have your buddies that are ouside sentry range shoot them.
Also, Sentries shoot only the first target that opens fire. Just have another ship there to shield transfer to the webbing ship to keep it alive.
There, stop whining!
Kinda sad when the rest of eve has to instruct the "pirates" on how to pirate to keep them from whining...
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2003.12.26 16:40:00 -
[103]
Quote:
What happens with no sentries
m0o is going to whack people regardless game mechanics. They have been doing it all the time, and they are good at it. They even sent GM's in concord battleships to route them, but that didnt stop them. Relying on game mechanics to save you from pirates is only making you victim.
The only thing that pirates are saying is that it is even less risk involved in pirating from distance.
--
2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Gravedancer
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Posted - 2003.12.26 16:42:00 -
[104]
Quote:
... Do you really think the situation where only large pirate groups with battleships can even think of trying that route, and everyone else has no real choice but to settle for ganking people with no questions asked... is a good thing?
So only "large" pirate groups have battleships ? Id be happy to help out the poor wayward pirates by selling them scorpions for 90 mil ISK.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.26 17:16:00 -
[105]
Quote:
ive been hunting in a .1 system for a few days now, and havent seen anything bigger than a 75k pirate, and that had only about 7 pathetic 12k or less pirates as escort. For sure havent seen anything I would classify as "insane" except out in non empire space. Even the "0.0 Empire space" system in metropolis has pirates about the same as the .1 systems ive looked at, and they actually spawn slower. Non empire space, on the other hand, is totally insane
Our home system is 0.4 and has high-level cruisers guarding the Veldspar or whatever crap is in the belts. No one is going to mine Veldspar when they need a Battleship or two to cover their miners.
As for trading... Jade, please do start spamming the forums with complaints. Hitting industrials full of trade goods made us massive profit in extremely short time. We'd love to have trading back.
As for tanking sentry gun fire. Yes, you can stand there for quite a while. But then after each kill you have to warp away and log for 10 minutes in order for the sentrys to forget about you. You CANNOT tank them forever unless you have several ships at your disposable who will accept the task of just sitting there and giving you shield and cap. Gee, that sounds like fun to me.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.12.26 17:20:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 26/12/2003 17:38:19
Quote:
As for trading... Jade, please do start spamming the forums with complaints. Hitting industrials full of trade goods made us massive profit in extremely short time. We'd love to have trading back.
Ummmm, my point was that I'm not such a sad act as the carebear pirates stamping their feet for dev intervention m'dear. Castor changed the game and killed the era of the unescorted trader. These things happen, we adapt.
Other ways of making money now that don't involve placing hundreds of millions of isk in harms way every night.
JF Public Forum |
nails
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Posted - 2003.12.26 17:25:00 -
[107]
Well one thing with a common pirate at least stays consistent in this game that is they travel together in groups. Whenever I think space pirates I think Tenchi Muyo and Tenchi Muyo GXP. Of course none of the pirates ever camp jump gates, they attack mostly cargo ships in open space. It's kinda hard to do that in this game since everything related to how movement is controlled by the jump gates. People don't just fly around solar systems, or have to fly from solar system to solar system. Because of that, pirates will have no choice but to camp jump gates to get good pray numbers.
If the eve engine was setup different and people had to warp between solar systems then you could factor in engine sizes, and warp distance, even warp speed. Then you could have pirates catching up to you in mid warp and then jamming you out of warp. I also note that most pirates never destroyed the ships they were going to loot, they only damaged them till they couldn't move or fight back then they would board and empty the hold. Cool things that could be done, but the EVE engine does not work like that so pirates will always camp gates.
With the whole sentry turret thing, I try to think about how all these security standards work. Since there are no set rules yet by concord and CCP changing the sentry distribution again and again makes it very confusing. How many resources should concord have in these lower security systems? I do believe that pirates shouldn't get anywhere near higher-level systems without concord going postal on them.. say .7+. .6- systems should be more player controlled. People with a 1.0 or higher security status with concord should be able to legally attack someone of -2.0 or less. Including pod without taking a security hit, or concord attack them. There is too strict a line on attacking any kind of pirate in empire space. Their needs to be more risk for pirate groups that creep up right on the outskirts of empire space to take out everything that moves. I've never had any problems with gate camping or pirates, they are a required part of making the game a success, but to keep everyone happy things need to be balanced. Since the devs took out most of the anti pirate factors they had originally setup on the dev server there still really isn't any way to seek any kind of revenge on a pirate at this time. The risk level is still too low for the common pirate who gate camps. At this time the only way to actually get them is if they CTD or are not paying attention or something. From the changes to the gates and the anti warp anti booster bubbles that were temporarily put around the gates I can tell that the devs are actually trying to think of some kind of balance method that will not play any more advantage to pirate campers. I'm sure they will think up something sooner or later.
I'm sure eventually we will be able to track each otherĘs ships in systems and actually warp to those locations, but that might be an option for people with very high security status with concord.. Maybe a device can be made and a skill, and depending on your status with concord gives you a license to use the tracking device. The tracking device would also only pickup people with overly negative standings, so that they wound not be abused in any kind of war situation. That would make it so that a breed of bounty hunters could once again come into the game, they would be the only ones that could track pirate movement once they left the gate. If they have gang of people with them, they will of course have to warp first and everyone else after; there by taking the most risk of loosing the tracking device. Obviously through a many number of ways a pirate would be able to get their hands on one of these tracking devices, but unless they could get an extremely high rating with concord it would be useless to them, and they wouldn't even be allowed to fit it to their ship.
We have Carebears, we have Alliances, and we have Pirates. There should be bounty hunters as well, but at this point in time that is not even close to an option. Bounty hunting was but a glimmer of future of eve, but swiftly faded away after many high level pirate corps were born.
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http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
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Lockheed
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Posted - 2003.12.26 17:58:00 -
[108]
Quote:
we tried to be nice. CCP only allows us to gank.
quote]
WTF R U SMOKIN?
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On a pale horse. |
Samsson
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Posted - 2003.12.26 19:36:00 -
[109]
Quote:
No, we are asking for 0.0 space with traffic.
But it's OK either way. We can continue to gank as we do now... just don't whine about how we didn't stop you or how you would have payed to save your ship and cargo.
Fine by me Valeria just dont whine when the law and order corps come pod kill you and u are stuck pirating in a frigate because you cant afford a battleship. You chose to be a pirate now quit crying about the life you chose and hell no I wouldnt trust your kind to charge tolls lots of pirates were slaughtering noobs in 1.0 when they could get away with it , there retort was cause we felt like it. Lastly I remember a corp moving to a new system there indy got ganked and instead of ransoming the smaller containers they blew them up , the effect was the corp dissolved and many people quit the game. You cant have carte blanch to do what you want and get away with it with slap on thye wrist
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2003.12.26 19:41:00 -
[110]
I do find it refreshing that a few pirates, such as Jim, do understand that Eve is about anyone doing anything, just not everywhere.
I happen to agree with that. What we have seen historically is that regardless of the impact on the game, a small group demands the right to gank anyone anytime. There is a larger group that does not want PvP. The rest of us want a varied environment where either can be done. That leaves the Dev's to try and manipulate the game mechanics to support the largest portion of the player population.
Until some of the game mechanics are fixed, removing sentries from .04 and below would just mean that all .04 and below systems got added to 0.0 space.
Valeria is fundamentally wrong in her arguement that sentry guns are the problem when she does identify the true problem, namely that 0.0 space is not very attractive and there is little reasone to travel from 0.0 to Empire space. I suggest that fixing that would increase the traffic and let Valeria perform toll piracy.
On a different note, while I think that piracy is a plus in Eve, I fail to see why pirates have it bad if they cannot make millions per day. It is not like they take a lot of risks. If you cannot get rich in your preferred occupation, then adapt and try something else.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Toastmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.26 19:45:00 -
[111]
Quote:
Quote:
No, we are asking for 0.0 space with traffic.
But it's OK either way. We can continue to gank as we do now... just don't whine about how we didn't stop you or how you would have payed to save your ship and cargo.
Fine by me Valeria just dont whine when the law and order corps come pod kill you and u are stuck pirating in a frigate because you cant afford a battleship. You chose to be a pirate now quit crying about the life you chose and hell no I wouldnt trust your kind to charge tolls lots of pirates were slaughtering noobs in 1.0 when they could get away with it , there retort was cause we felt like it. Lastly I remember a corp moving to a new system there indy got ganked and instead of ransoming the smaller containers they blew them up , the effect was the corp dissolved and many people quit the game. You cant have carte blanch to do what you want and get away with it with slap on thye wrist
Well what is the risk for us pirates when we gank ppl at the gate with sentry guns ??
Will the "order corps" come and warp scramble us at 60 km range or what ?
"viper zulu > toast has killed our whole corporation ships at least once"
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.26 19:51:00 -
[112]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, we are asking for 0.0 space with traffic.
But it's OK either way. We can continue to gank as we do now... just don't whine about how we didn't stop you or how you would have payed to save your ship and cargo.
Fine by me Valeria just dont whine when the law and order corps come pod kill you and u are stuck pirating in a frigate because you cant afford a battleship. You chose to be a pirate now quit crying about the life you chose and hell no I wouldnt trust your kind to charge tolls lots of pirates were slaughtering noobs in 1.0 when they could get away with it , there retort was cause we felt like it. Lastly I remember a corp moving to a new system there indy got ganked and instead of ransoming the smaller containers they blew them up , the effect was the corp dissolved and many people quit the game. You cant have carte blanch to do what you want and get away with it with slap on thye wrist
Well what is the risk for us pirates when we gank ppl at the gate with sentry guns ??
Will the "order corps" come and warp scramble us at 60 km range or what ?
No.
They'll pick a direction behind you, warp to it, warp back to the gate at 60km warp-in distance THEN get you.
Or they may plant giant secures at your most common areas of assault at 60km range and use them to warp to.
Or they may load out a Scorpion with sensor linking equipment and just happily shoot at you from 60km anyway in power-Tempests until you get pwned so many times you become a laughing stock.
3 things and I only had to think for a second or two.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.26 20:00:00 -
[113]
Wtf, you don't think people have tried that already? Anti-pirates have gotten our bookmarks many times... we just change them.
We've had a gazillion Bships warp in and shoot us from 60km... what's the point when we can just warp away?
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.26 20:01:00 -
[114]
Quote:
Wtf, you don't think people have tried that already? Anti-pirates have gotten our bookmarks many times... we just change them.
We've had a gazillion Bships warp in and shoot us from 60km... what's the point when we can just warp away?
Don't have to destroy you to secure a clear path, do they?
Driving you off is as much as a victory as killing you.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Toastmaster
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Posted - 2003.12.26 20:03:00 -
[115]
Well to many times we manage to kill one of them before we warp away so they loose
"viper zulu > toast has killed our whole corporation ships at least once"
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.26 20:12:00 -
[116]
Quote:
Well to many times we manage to kill one of them before we warp away so they loose
Guess that is their fault for not being so quick to run as you?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Kakalot
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Posted - 2003.12.26 20:18:00 -
[117]
To me piracy is cool cuz its challenging  . Not many ppl can do that . Its not they that dont want to but they cant . Sorry i've been tired of reading all the crap of you ppl (esp the anti- pirate folks) so i made a few general statement off my head ...
Enjoy the game..
I know i will
________________________________________________________
http://users.pandora.be/zebras/Kakalot.jpg |
testerkid
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Posted - 2003.12.26 20:28:00 -
[118]
I find it funny that you don't like people to taunt you when they get away. when you taunt defenseless miners.
and run when you have a real challenge.
just adapt mam.
find new grounds or a new trade.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.26 20:47:00 -
[119]
Quote:
Quote:
Well to many times we manage to kill one of them before we warp away so they loose
Guess that is their fault for not being so quick to run as you?
Aren't you contradicting yourself now? Should they warp in with long-range Bships only to run away as soon as they leave warp? What a succesful operation! They must be proud of themselves.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.26 21:21:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 26/12/2003 21:22:32
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well to many times we manage to kill one of them before we warp away so they loose
Guess that is their fault for not being so quick to run as you?
Aren't you contradicting yourself now? Should they warp in with long-range Bships only to run away as soon as they leave warp? What a succesful operation! They must be proud of themselves.
No, I'm saying they were stupid for not taking the same opportunity as you to leave when things got too hot.
This is how I'd consider doing it.
1 Scorpion with 4 Tracking Enhancer/4 Remote Sensor Boosters.
4 Tempests, each with a Target Enhancer/Remote Sensor Booster boost from the Scorpion aswell as their own tracking cpu/sensor boosters (since they don't suffer the stacking penalty from the Scorpion), with 6 1400mm's all targetting and hitting the same ship might give them a good chance of hitting really very hard before the target gathers enough momentum to warp.
I've seen wrecking shots of over 1000 at ranges exceeding 60km so it's entirely possible you could get serious armour/hull damage from just one volley of 24 1400mm's.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
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