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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1484
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Posted - 2017.01.19 20:23:14 -
[1] - Quote
First I want to say nothing against you personally The Judge. Here are some reasons I am against CSM continuing as it does with the NDA:
The Judge wrote:... I'd love to list the things we have discussed at length with CCP that have or haven't made it into the game, or are still works in progress, but you know... that pesky NDA. The community will never know 95% of what the CSM has worked on with CCP, and in all honesty, that's the benefit CCP gets out of it.
Its hard to say you represent the community when they don't even know 95% of what you do. How can the community meaningfully vote when they are in the dark about 95% of what is done? In most democracy voters can find out how their elected officials vote. They meet in public and discuss things in public. They do not meet behind closed doors and submit minutes that at best might indicate who said what but very often just say something was raised and then fail to indicate what each person thought of it. Every thinking person can see democracy does not work if the voters are uninformed. NDA = voters can not be informed what csm is doing.
If CCP gets something out of this ok. But really they should just pick their own focus group instead of this charade.
The majority of votes are from null alliances that just vote for who they are told to vote for. This isn't the csms fault, its that "pesky" nda.
The Judge wrote:. "We filter out the static of 1000 voices and condense that down to a workable list of concerns and ideas."
As I said above since the NDA it is unclear what you do. It would be great if you published a list of concerns and ideas for each topic of a summit so you could get actual player feedback. Then I might agree you could filter the "static" of 1000 voices. But I have not seen that.
Of course we see Aryth say finding out what is going to happen in the future is good for his coalition. And I am sure it is. Personally, I think it is unfair to give information to select players when they have demonstrated time and again and again that they will use this to their advantage. And I am only talking about the times CCP was able to *prove* this happened. Anyone who has the brain of a hamster should be able to use this information to their advantage without getting caught. Just like Aryth said he would. This is an affront to the core integrity of the game.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1484
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Posted - 2017.01.19 20:29:24 -
[2] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:I would like to see the CSM be more active HERE in these forums.
Not all of us players are super swift at social media. We are just people who enjoy EVE.
Maybe if each member of the CSM posted a link in advance to where and when they would be available on these other outlets here people like me would have a chance to interact with them.
I don't want a degree in social media surfing, I do want to be able to contact those who have volunteered to speak on my behalf. The _easiest_ way, in most cases, to start a dialogue is to eve mail us. That way you don't need to worry about timing issues.
2 problems
1)Its not public.. Believe it or not Politicians often would like to say contradictory things depending on who they are talking to. The public discussion that takes place in a real democracy (as opposed to a government where everything is done in secret under and NDA) prevents that.
2) My experience (and everyone I talked to about evemailing csm) is its a complete waste of time.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1484
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Posted - 2017.01.19 20:33:45 -
[3] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:I would like to see the CSM be more active HERE in these forums.
Not all of us players are super swift at social media. We are just people who enjoy EVE.
Maybe if each member of the CSM posted a link in advance to where and when they would be available on these other outlets here people like me would have a chance to interact with them.
I don't want a degree in social media surfing, I do want to be able to contact those who have volunteered to speak on my behalf.
Asking for a principle place for csm to communicate with players is asking way too much. They expect players to read reddit, twitter, their own personal blogs, other peoples blogs, and listen to a variety of podcasts if players are to get even a glimmer of what is going to happen at the summit.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1484
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Posted - 2017.01.19 20:56:19 -
[4] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote: Restricting ourselves to just the official forums would be a mistake, don't you think?
There should be a central place where supposed voters can find out what csm memebers are doing. This highlights a certain disconnect between csm and the vast majority of players. CSM players probably spend allot of time reading various 3rd party information portals. Most players are much more casual about eve. I recall reading one set of minutes where someone suggested that an event like the Guristas event should only last like 2 weeks! I might not even log on in a 2 week period. I can only hope that CCP understands that CSM members and their opinions are likely quite different than most players.
Steve Ronuken wrote:
You do know that you can't really complain that CCP is listening to a very small subset of players, because they're the players who vote? The franchise is wide open. _Anyone_ can vote. _Anyone_ can run for CSM.
Its silly to have an election when all the work is done in private. See my point above about how truly democratic systems require openness and public access. Thats why no one votes because candidates don't have to say what they will do they just have to say they are the pick of this null alliance. Even if they do claim they will favor something we never know if they actually advocate for it or not. We just get horrible vague minutes from the summits. We have no idea what is said other than that. It is ridiculous to claim this is anything like a normal healthy democratic process. No wonder turnout is so bad.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1484
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Posted - 2017.01.20 01:14:35 -
[5] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:One thing about requiring _all_ discussion to be public (between the CSM and the rest of the player base). It has a chilling effect on what some people will bring up.
It's also naive to think it could happen. Someone sends me a message. How are you to know if I'm going to post it or not? Not all things are things which it's worth making public.
Not all the work is done in private. You address me in the forums, I'll answer in the forums (assuming I see it. There can be a lot of traffic to keep track of. I do try to keep on top of a number of the sections.) You address me on reddit, I'll answer there. I don't demand that everyone uses a single method to contact me. I make myself available on many.
No one is suggesting that "everything" be done in public. Its just everytime anyone wants to find out something about csm the response is almost to send an evemail and the information we get in any event is usually about the food since everything else is nda.
It's rare to see a discussion of substance conducted in public.
Anyway I raised several points against the CSM existing with the current NDA.
1) NDA is unfair to the players who don't get to learn about the game and make their economic plans. To deny csm players leak this information and use it for gain to themselves and their friends is just denying what has been proven.
2) NDA makes it pretty much impossible to see what candidates actually do after they are elected. The minutes are usually quite vague as to who raised what or said what. (one time there was even some drama because a fellow csm dared to say what another csm said at a summit!) I think we used to get transcipts of what was said. Unlike in real democracies where the government is transparent, the NDA makes it impossible to know who you should vote for.
3) And the other problem with csm not related to the nda is that there is no central place to find out what the csm is actually doing. Expecting players to scour the internet to find out what candidates are doing about a computer game is asking quite a bit don't you think?
4) CSM are very hard core players who for whatever reason can spend allot of there lives playing eve. This in itself means they are not going to be able to relate to most other players. So there will automatically be a considerable disconnect.
There are 4 seperate problems with the CSM and in my opinion good reasons to put it down - like old yeller as the op title suggests.
If the NDA is lifted that would be quite an improvement and I think it might be salvagable. But with the NDA it is destructive to the game.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1486
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Posted - 2017.01.23 03:06:36 -
[6] - Quote
Borat Guereen wrote:Cearain wrote:
It's rare to see a discussion of substance conducted in public.
Discussions of substance should be done during the campaign using the candidates' public threads, where they do not have to be under NDA and can answer your questions in their own way. You can then judge if those candidates are worthy or not of your vote from their answers and what they say, as once they are elected, they have the power to represent you as it has been given to them. ...or you can not bother engaging the candidates, not vote, obey groups' consigns and get the candidates you don't really know anything about to represent you.
Yes I agree that should be done at that time.
Of course we all know that at least half the csm are just appointed by the null sec coalition that they represent and no they don't know much about what they want to do with the game. Half the time they can just say "Im not a game designer" and avoid any questions of substance. But the null sec alliances do know that getting someone from their alliance on the csm so their leadership can find out what is going to happen in the future is good for their alliance. So of course they will vote to have their leadership to be able to see what other players can not.
But lets set aside this issue of allowing large alliances to cheat for now. (although I see no one has actually addressed this issue) There is still the problem of actual normal players trying to find out if any candidates actually followed up on their promises. Players like me have voted for csm and then found it impossible to see what that candidate did with respect to the promises they made. So it should hardly be surprising that players are disenchanted and the voter turnout is so low.
For a democracy to actually work the people doing the voting have to see that the people they are electing are actually doing some of things they were elected to do. That clearly doesn't happen here and with the current nda it never can.
Black Pedro wrote: This is largely true. The nature of the CSM means you really have to trust what people say given the largely secret nature of the work. Your vote has to be based on who the person is and what they say they believe and will do, not how they actually perform (which is only relevant for incumbents anyway). ..
Yes of course we may not even know the person's real name. I am not even sure if we can find out if the person has been repeatedly convicted of fraud. So good luck basing your vote on who you think the person really is.
Jin'taan wrote:I do something akin to this in my weekly reviews here, however it talks more about things going forwards, with the exception of my Quarterly Reviews, which come very close to what you talk about :) The real issue here however, is that not every CSM member is willing or able to (time wise) to communicate at that level constantly with the public. If you want to see that, I'd suggest voting for those who are willing and able to communicate, and put it first in their agenda. Ask candidates if they'd be willing to do this, etc.
It would be easier if we just had the transcripts of the meetings. But then again this nda prevents this.
The same nda that allows null sec alliances can make huge amounts off the market by being informed of changes well before the rest of the playerbase. Of course the rest of us normal players find it impossible to compete with that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1486
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Posted - 2017.01.23 12:47:10 -
[7] - Quote
Borat Thanks for the response but I am not sure we are quite on the same page. I'm talking about csm simply violating the Nda for their own gain or leaking the nda to others for their alliance. Ccp has had proof players have done this in the past. Despite the fact that it would be next to impossible to catch someone if they even a bit smart about it. Now the candidates barely hide that they will use csm and nda to help their alliances in the future.
Aryth:
"What happens when you put the long term planner on the CSM and seeing the long term plans.
Good things for us that's what."
This is what he said before he was on csm. So it's clear Ccp knows this is happening yet they allow him to stay on? It's hard to be so naive to think he is the only one.
It seems to me that giving some players advance information about how the rules of the game will change and not others is just fundementally unfair. How can anyone compete in the market when insider trading is allowed to a privileged few?
I don't think letting a few more independent candidates on csm is going to change this. The nda or csm itself must go.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1488
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Posted - 2017.01.30 15:54:03 -
[8] - Quote
Andski wrote:Cearain wrote:The same nda that allows null sec alliances can make huge amounts off the market by being informed of changes well before the rest of the playerbase. Of course the rest of us normal players find it impossible to compete with that. I don't doubt that things like this have happened before, but you'd be pretty dumb to leak NDA privileged information even in private chats. Logs get leaked all the time.
I am thinking many people could actually just use a telephone. Sure that could be recorded as well, but that is actually criminal in some jurisdictions.
But lets set aside those cases where ccp has proven people just break the nda in order to gain advantage. And lets set aside all those cases where people likely got away with it because they did it in an halfway intelligent way that ccp couldn't prove a case against them. Let me ask whether the csm gains an advantage even if it is within the rules.
So lets say you are on csm and you see the information ccp is kicking around for citadels, (or faction war lp stores or reprocessing changes or etc etc.) long before everyone else. So you have say you have a month to think about how this will impact the market. So you have all this time to think about which items will increase in value quite a bit and which will decrease in value quite a bit. So then you say to yourself the minute ccp makes this public I will buy or sell all of x and/or tell all my alliance mates my thinking so they can do the same. Since it is after it is made public is there a violation?
I mean as normal player without this advance information I read a dev blog I try to understand what the devs mean by certain ambiguities in the dev blog. And it might take a week or a month get some of this answered. But if I were on csm I might already know those answers. Plus there is just allot more time to process the information for csm members and CCP is there to answer any questions they have. So they can just skim the dev blog and be like "yep its just like I thought" and then go buy out jita in minutes. Or have their alliance mates buy out jita (assuming they themselves can't) in minutes.
I mean csm members can talk about stuff once it is public right? So what prevents that? And how could anyone who is kept in the dark relative to csm members realistically hope to compete?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV It Burns When I'm PvPing
1502
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Posted - 2017.03.08 14:02:45 -
[9] - Quote
Jin'taan wrote:Social Injustice Warrior wrote:Theodoric Darkwind wrote:Given that CSM input was most certainly listened to in regards to citadels/ECs and the mining changes I think they are most certainly still quite useful. Citadels have been probably the biggest change to the game in recent years and have opened up all sorts of new gameplay possibilities and content generation, the mining changes have also been a major source of content (usually in the form of shiny Rorqual killmails :) ) Bingo, you just showed exactly why the CSM does not need to exist. The CSM paved to way to promote a certain type of game style. PVP is wonderful. But so is mining and missioning. PVP should of course sometime be non consensual. War declarations, ganking and other issues. But now EVE via the CSM has decided to give a competitive advantage to larger players and group play beyond market forces. As the EVE subscription numbers continue to freefall I understand EVE ONLINE'S desperate bid to retain and recruit players. EVE ONLINE needs professional management . EVE ONLINE does not need a bunch of well meaning amateurs getting in the way. EVE needs to build new missions, new stories that promote fantasy and enjoyment. Creating and to promote player bosses to pay homage too ( CSM members) does not encourage working people to want to check out EVE. Let me boiled it down some more. Most people log on EVE ONLINE to escape their boss infested lives! Now I forced to join up with a large group so I have a fighting chance to enjoy EVE???? So then new plaers can be BOSSSED around by 20 something ???? Are you seriously??? You want people to pay to bossed around???? I have multiple industrial toons that have now been exposed as suckers. Really glad I spent all that time just to watch it all be snipped away by the CSM. The subscription numbers have shown I am not alone as people terminal log off forever. I call upon EVE ONLINE to take charge and rebuild their product. New missions, new ships and new objectives are far more needed then worrying about entertaining the CSM !!!! I call upon EVE ONLINE to take the entire CSM concept to the players. I would vote if an option would be NO MORE CSM!!!! The CSM was created in response to a player called Klugsman cheating with a CCP employee. Klugsman clearly wanted an advantage just like the CSM! Clear away the old guard and put the individual player and give the creative juices of CCP that created EVE back in charge. It is managed by CCP. We just advise on changes regarding certain things, for example the way rigs/tax operate on Engineering Complexes, rather than saying "CCP you need to do Engineering Complexes this way". If you'd like to actively point out ways in which something that is negatively impacting your game experience, you're welcome to elaborate on them and provide actual constructive feedback. Or you can just post with massive amounts of superfluous exclamation marks and question marks and engage in the lowest form of outrage sophistry that you can muster and I'll completely ignore you. Also, we have advised about PvE in general as well, in fact if you had bothered to read the minutes from the first summit, you'd have noted that social/group PvE was top of all of our lists for things we felt needed to be improved or added to the game, as we feel being able to make money with your friends is a key point that has been missing in EvE for a long time.
I think you may be missing his point. Friendships take time. Lots of people don't have the time to maintain lots of couter game friendships. Lots of people just want to play a game for a few hours a week. By forcing social aspects you are forcing a time commitment many players just don't have. Of course those on the csm have that time or they wouldn't be on the csm. Hence the disconnect. Csm recommends things that generally requires group play when much of the player base doesn't have time to really commit to a game in that way. Csm can say what they want to have happen but they - by the very fact that they can commit to making eve a part time job for a year are in a very different place than most players. They are just pulling eve further from a place where it can appeal to more people.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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