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Tama Bla
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.12.11 13:21:55 -
[1] - Quote
In the events that unfold during the destruction of the first fully operational Keepstar, I can blame no one else but Santimona Sarpati and her Sisters of Eve, for the tragedy and loss of human life onboard the Keepstar. Capsuleers are like a force of nature even more true for those in huge alliances and coaliations.
And as much as you can't stop the tide from rising, as much you can't stop these Capsuleers in their strive for power.
But what you can do is warn and evacuate those affected by the tide. And this is where Santimona Sarpati failed. There was enough time and warning signs to organise the evacuation of the poor souls onboard the Keepstar. And I'm certain that if the effort of an SoE evacuation would have been made the combating parties would have allowed such an evacuation. But it is easier and more profitable for the SoE to not deal with the surge of 138 million refugees and just take care of the few escape pods that survived the helish inferno of M-OEE8. It is also more beneficial for the SoE propaganda machine to paint all capsuleers as rutheles and vicious beasts, and neglect the total failure on thier part.
As consequence of M-OEE8 I demand the resignation of Santimona Sarpati as CEO of the Sisters of Eve. And beg the Concord Assembly and the leaders of the four great Empires for the founding of a Concord sanktioned Citadel evacuation Force, those are your people dying out there not only in 0.0 but also in Citadels in the Empires. |
Yarosara Ruil
Haighare Pirates
768
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Posted - 2016.12.11 13:29:42 -
[2] - Quote
But... Explosions are so pretty! |
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
611
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Posted - 2016.12.11 13:34:02 -
[3] - Quote
Conflicting reports. I've read comments from CO2 members saying they were busy the whole week evaccing the station. The Scope may be just sensationalizing.
I can imagine capsuleers in power not caring for human assets, but I can't imagine them not caring about their image. Fights like these need human resources, to put it bluntly, and "Oh yeah, we don't care about you" is not a good image to put on the recruiting board - people may be better off joining, I don't know, Guristas. And who knows, maybe that John the docking manager was a close friend or relative of your body guard or cook.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
961
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Posted - 2016.12.11 13:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
As one of those who destroyed that Keepstar and ended those lives... what the actual **** is wrong with you? Don't take the responsibility for choices made away from the aggressors, defenders, victims and instigators in this war, just to make a cheap political point.
Using the deaths of these people so cheaply, transparently and outright dishonestly? Spirits below. |
Tama Bla
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.12.11 13:56:27 -
[5] - Quote
Jaret Victorian wrote:Conflicting reports. I've read comments from CO2 members saying they were busy the whole week evaccing the station. The Scope may be just sensationalizing.
Yes Co2 was evaccing, but mostly thier personal, corporation and alliance assets and the workforce associated with those assets. There may be a lucky few who made it onboard of one of those evaccing ships but many more did not. And not everyone is affiliated directly with CO2 there are many sub-contractors and free agencies who funnel fresh personel to newly build keepstars. You need much more than engineers and scientist we are talking about a whole country in space and not many are lucky enough to have the right contacts to leave the keepstar.
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Tama Bla
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2016.12.11 14:10:31 -
[6] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:As one of those who destroyed that Keepstar and ended those lives... what the actual **** is wrong with you? Don't take the responsibility for choices made away from the aggressors, defenders, victims and instigators in this war, just to make a cheap political point.
Using the deaths of these people so cheaply, transparently and outright dishonestly? Spirits below.
Sure are the ones who ended those lives at fault. But so is everyone with the capabilities to prenvent such a loss who didn't take action. And as the largest humanitarian organization in the cluster the Sisters of Eve did nothing, but pick up the remains. This in my eyes says a lot of the humanitarian intent of such an organisation. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
961
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Posted - 2016.12.11 14:23:51 -
[7] - Quote
So they should start sending their forces into warzones occupied by capsuleers who very much tends to shoot first and don't bother asking questions about it later.
There's a reason emergency responders wait until situations have been cleared before moving in. When you do it before the danger has been mapped out and secured, you become part of the problem. More people to be saved, requiring more resources diverted and everyone you could have aided now needs someone else to do it because you were an idiot that moved in too soon.
The amount of different sides involved in this war, not even counting all the enthusiastic third parties ensures there is no way to safeguard any such aid workers and expecting them to throw their lives away like that is ridiculous.
However much I distrust the SSoE, not throwing their ships and crews into a meatgrinder until it's been confirmed switched off is hardly something they can be blamed for. If you have an agenda against them, find real weapons against them instead of using the loss of these lives in such a malicious manner. |
Jev North
Hyperpredator Rest Home
468
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Posted - 2016.12.11 14:53:49 -
[8] - Quote
Having a workable evac plan and assets in place is a responsibility that rests squarely on the shoulders of the owners of the citadel. The Sisters of EVE are at core a charitable organization. They may attempt to save you from the consequences of your own stupidity, at their pleasure. They are under no obligation to acquire and risk setting billions' worth of good jump-capable transports on fire just because some nulsec warlords decided to be massively irresponsible.
Das ist schmutzig, falsch und moralisch höchst verwerflich. Bin dabei.
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Skyweir Kinnison
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
342
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Posted - 2016.12.11 15:35:10 -
[9] - Quote
Blaming the Sister of Eve is fatuous. They are not a legally neutral entity, and as has been noted already, evacuating so many millions in any reasonable resource/time frame in the midst of a highly active war would be more than challenging for any organisation.
Null-sec can be a brutal place at times. The rewards to be found there are also very attractive. Consequently, many people seek their fortune and opportunities are legion. Any contractor who followed the money to this or any other structure without reflecting on the very real possibility of death was a fool - and not many are fools. This has been the story of frontier regions and those hardy souls who brave them for millennia.
One suspects that a good number may have worked in Tribute for many years, under the protection of Circle-of-Two and ultimately the Imperium. Times were good and money plentiful. Once Co2 decided to abandon that arrangement, the risk facing their workforce increased exponentially to reflect the more usual risk/reward ratio in null. It seems that a lot of people either did not understand this, or didn't really accept their reality had changed.
The Tribute war has been ongoing for some while, plenty of time for the perspicacious to find new employment in less contested space. If contractors stayed through self-delusionor because Co2 paid them well enough to stay, they were gambling with their lives, and have lost that bet. (Having said that, it should be noted that large ships and huge structures have substantial lifeboat facilities. I very much doubt the final casualty figures are as high as the headlines make out, and those survivors will be slightly singed, but quite employable by whoever finally settles the system).
None of this is the Sisters' fault. We the aggressors, and those defenders who failed ultimately to protect their staff, hold the only responsibility.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2632
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Posted - 2016.12.11 18:34:34 -
[10] - Quote
I have an alternate theory of the case.
The OP is certain 'that if the effort of an SoE evacuation would have been made the combating parties would have allowed such an evacuation'. To that, I would simply point out what every capsuleer in null knows: NCPL, CoTEST, and pretty much everyone else in null who hunts Guristas, Blood Raiders, Serpentis, Angels, Rogue Drones, and anything else that doesn't run away fast enough to keep us from scavenging their corpses would, in fact, have looked at those evacuation convoys and the inevitable escort groups of Stratios- and Nestor-class vessels (if, indeed, the Nestors weren't being used directly as evacuation platforms) as nice, juicy pinatas of whatever scraps of technology, salvage, or just tears could be wrung from them.
Consider: The Scope is making a big deal of the 130-something million people that make up the crew and residential compliment of a Keepstar. Call it 150 million beings if we expand our count from 'human beings' to include household pets, fedos, and TEST. In Delve, our pirate-hunting has slowed down a little. We're only on-track to kill 20,000,000 Blood Raider vessels this month. Who wants to take the bet that they average out to more than 6.5 crewmembers per ship? The Guristas, across all of their space, lose similar numbers to the losses sustained by the Blood Raiders. The Scope doesn't much seem to care about that slaughter, does it?
So what's the difference? Sure, you can claim the citadel's population were non-combatants... except a Citadel is, in fact, a combat structure. It's expressly a defensive emplacement, not an industrial or market structureGÇöthough some are configured to provide those services. So each and every individual who was working on that citadel was, indeed, a combatant. Maybe their families weren't. Maybe that's exactly the kind of consideration someone should take into account when deciding whether or not to move their families into a nullsec combat fortification. At the very least, to take that kind of job without researching the situation and the political climate is irresponsible to the point of being suicidal.
This Keepstar was never going to survive. The moment it began nano-assembly, it was doomed. There was never a time when NCPL were not going to evict Circle-of-Two for control of the M-O/Taisy stargate in order to give their recruitment drives for Horde (whether or not Horde itself owns that space) a relatively easy route in from high-sec, and an extremely quick and easy route for access to/from Jita.
More, Gigx is exactly the kind of stiff-necked individual who would eventually have a personality clash with his overlords, most predictably over the sections of Tribute that CO2 has been actively attempting to get control over for years now. Gigx's attacks on MC fall right into this pattern, as MC now holds two of the constellations Gigx spent years trying to force TNT to cede to him. While Corps Diplomatique worked hard to resolve issues through (appropriately enough) diplomacy within the CFC / Imperium, his new neighbors employ a far more direct style of response to this kind of belligerence. Put bluntly, Gigx was always, inevitably going to **** off the people around him, and they were always going to have no patience for his crap. After all, they have no reason to be patient with him. He has, and had, absolutely no leverage, and there was nothing they wanted from him.
So, that horrifically high number that gets matched across New Eden probably twice a week without a single word of notice from the Scope, or any of the fine, wonderful, moral people now taking such pains to be seen condemning the violence... who is to blame?
Who isn't?
Every capsuleer here flies ships built by industrialists who participate in the vast, interconnected pool of monetary gain that drives and enables that kind of bloodshed. Salvage, Tech II modules, Tech III ships, deadspace pieces, price supports for even T1 frigate hulls, it's all driven by murder and savagery. Take away the warfare and watch the economic model that lets people produce the ships you use and the ammunition you expend crumble under the lack of demand.
You want to see body counts like this stop? Stop profiting from it, even indirectly. Stop selling your ores, your PI, your salvage, to people who will build ships for use in war. Stop marketing products that kill, or that support killing. Stop buying weapons, even to use against pirates.
Stop imagining yourself as somehow above it all, and unsullied. Money is fungibleGÇöwhat you spend yours on allows others to make war. You want to know who's responsible for all those deaths?
Look in the mirror. Nobody is innocent. |
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Utari Onzo
13. Enigma Project
1468
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Posted - 2016.12.11 18:41:57 -
[11] - Quote
Arrendis is on point about GigX and that Capsuleers who engage in the markets in any fashion are almost inevitably contributing to a war economy.
But I would still say that the ultimate responsibility of the destruction of anything lies with the destroyer. You can point things and pontificate loudly about the supposed failings of your enemies and others, but all that noise means jack if it was actively destroyed with intent.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2632
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Posted - 2016.12.11 18:49:37 -
[12] - Quote
Don't get me wrong, Utari: The people involved in the attack bear responsibility for their own actions. But everyone else does, too, and nobody should be telling themselves they aren't complicit if they've been a part of the capsuleer economy. |
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
870
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Posted - 2016.12.11 19:44:30 -
[13] - Quote
You are turning this into a real downer of a thread.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
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Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
964
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Posted - 2016.12.11 21:40:40 -
[14] - Quote
Let's not try and justify what some of us do by trying to equivocate highsec mining with what may be an unprecedented act of massively parallel - as opposed to serial - killing. There's certainly something to the notion that everyone somewhat contributes to the system, but the responsibility for the lives lost in M-O starts and ends with those of us making the choice to launch our cruise missiles at the Keepstar.
It's far from the gravest sin performed in New Eden, even that day alone, but trying to reduce the responsibility by spreading it thinly across everyone who ever contributed to the capsuleer economy through less violent acts is disingenuous.
No miner, explorer or whatever else had anything to do with me contributing to turning however many millions of lives into a brief yet beautiful star. Nor are they responsible for whatever else is done out on the frontiers. The buck will always stop with you. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2732
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Posted - 2016.12.11 22:10:16 -
[15] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Let's not try and justify what some of us do by trying to equivocate highsec mining with what may be an unprecedented act of massively parallel - as opposed to serial - killing. There's certainly something to the notion that everyone somewhat contributes to the system, but the responsibility for the lives lost in M-O starts and ends with those of us making the choice to launch our cruise missiles at the Keepstar.
It's far from the gravest sin performed in New Eden, even that day alone, but trying to reduce the responsibility by spreading it thinly across everyone who ever contributed to the capsuleer economy through less violent acts is disingenuous.
No miner, explorer or whatever else had anything to do with me contributing to turning however many millions of lives into a brief yet beautiful star. Nor are they responsible for whatever else is done out on the frontiers. The buck will always stop with you.
So, Miz? This seems like a kind of critical moment for pointing something out.
You seem to hate me for "not taking responsibility" for my actions, as though I obviously didn't take responsibility for what I was doing because my awareness didn't change my course.
But: I'm aware of what I do. I'm aware of its effects, both actual and potential. I have reason enough, in my own subjective judgment, to do it anyway.
In this, it seems, we're no different. |
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation Mercenary Coalition
965
|
Posted - 2016.12.11 22:34:56 -
[16] - Quote
I'd lay out the critical details that makes up the vast gulf of difference between the two of us, and perhaps make yet another futile attempt to detail nuances you seem to prefer to ignore, but since I've never been in your pants I don't think the IGS is a suitable location for personal interludes. They probably belong in that other thread, for that matter. Let's keep this one on topic. |
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2732
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Posted - 2016.12.11 23:24:52 -
[17] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I'd lay out the critical details that makes up the vast gulf of difference between the two of us, and perhaps make yet another futile attempt to detail nuances you seem to prefer to ignore, but since I've never been in your pants I don't think the IGS is a suitable location for personal interludes. They probably belong in that other thread, for that matter. Let's keep this one on topic. Normally, references to an irrelevant but personally-painful topic are a good way to guarantee a derailment sticks, Miz. Please don't worry, though; I won't stand in the way of your self-flagellation or your quest for the the position of top moralizing hypocrite.
To the rest: you can save your breath about your viewpoint. About everything. I don't actually trust your judgment very much. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
482
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Posted - 2016.12.11 23:35:43 -
[18] - Quote
People leave civilization and bad things happen to them. It's tragic, but hardly surprising.
The fringe barbarians have been committing acts of savage butchery for years. I do not really understand what is so special about this case?
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2732
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Posted - 2016.12.11 23:41:21 -
[19] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:People leave civilization and bad things happen to them. It's tragic, but hardly surprising.
The fringe barbarians have been committing acts of savage butchery for years. I do not really understand what is so special about this case? It seems like it's mostly the spectacle of the equivalent of a very large, heavily-fortified planetary city falling in under a year, Lord Admiral. |
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
483
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Posted - 2016.12.12 00:07:30 -
[20] - Quote
In which case all this hand wringing and chest beating is just part of the spectacle. An empty performance of grief and outrage in a vain attempt to demonstrate to whoever is watching that they at least are not horrible people. Got it.
Lord Admiral of PIE inc.
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour Sani-Sabik
1838
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Posted - 2016.12.12 00:23:33 -
[21] - Quote
I think the Scope is covering this incident, because it is the first ? case of a Keepstar being engaged and destroyed while properly operational and armed.
Just as the first Outpost that was constructed by capsuleer efforts was notable, but the say... 87th outpost to be constructed, wouldn't even get mentioned except in the local constellation/region capsuleer intelligence news.
Or the first capsuleer owned Titan being engaged and put out of action. That made the Scope news. Why, didn't the SOCT or someone hand out sections of hull plating from it a couple of years ago, as souvenirs ? The last Titan to be put out of action, did that even appear in a Scope news ticker ?
So, I expect that say, the 39th Keepstar to be engaged and destroyed, won't be covered by the Scope at all.
Capsuleers have the habit of making the significant become the mundane in quite a short period of time.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
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Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
2732
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Posted - 2016.12.12 00:23:36 -
[22] - Quote
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:In which case all this hand wringing and chest beating is just part of the spectacle. An empty performance of grief and outrage in a vain attempt to demonstrate to whoever is watching that they at least are not horrible people. Got it. ... or the slightly more complicated act of dwelling moment on their own involvement in such a thing, my lord. A ship is a tool first, a harvester, transport, or weapon that happens to have a lot of people on it.
A major station, or citadel, is a home, a habitat. That's kind of what it's for.
Even if both might be targeted in a war, the gravity of destroying one might be a little more obvious than the other.
My angry words to Miz notwithstanding, ruthlessness and thoughtlessness don't really need to walk hand in hand, my lord. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2639
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Posted - 2016.12.12 05:22:59 -
[23] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:It's far from the gravest sin performed in New Eden, even that day alone, but trying to reduce the responsibility by spreading it thinly across everyone who ever contributed to the capsuleer economy through less violent acts is disingenuous.
Nobody's reducing the responsibility. You're responsible for what you do. You always are. That doesn't mean others aren't responsible for contributing to the system that enables you to do what you do. You don't act in a vacuum, and anyone who wants to pontificate like their hands are clean of the billions of lives we willfully and intentionally snuff out every week or so is just hypocritical. The buck stops with you for what you do. But the vast majority of the pilots who fired those missiles didn't sell them, they didn't produce them, and they didn't profit from that aspect of the economy of death.
There is a vast difference between absolving you of what you do, or diluting your culpability for your actions, and holding other people accountable for theirs, too. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
2985
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Posted - 2016.12.12 06:55:39 -
[24] - Quote
CONCORD is to blame for allowing unloyal pilots to use Capsule interface.
That technology should have been property of Caldari State alone, and only Caldari Navy should had ability to use it.
Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.
In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1945
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Posted - 2016.12.12 14:05:41 -
[25] - Quote
It's not genocide when the winning side does it, you can also label them as enemy combatants.
Akrasjel Lanate
Founder and CEO of Naquatech Conglomerate
Executor of Naquatech Syndicate
Citizen of Solitude
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Sinjin Mokk
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
1034
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Posted - 2016.12.12 14:52:31 -
[26] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:CONCORD is to blame for allowing unloyal pilots to use Capsule interface.
That technology should have been property of Caldari State alone, and only Caldari Navy should had ability to use it.
Your naivete is adorable.
The reason why CONCORD allows unloyal and lawless pilots is the same reason why you're bogged down in an unwinnable war with the Federation. Because they make ISK off of it.
And do spare us the us rhetoric on how the State will prevail. Under normal circumstances, with traditional ships and weaponry? Yeah, maybe. But with CONCORD pulling the strings of you and the State, the war will never end. And let's not forget Caldari corporations make a tidy profit off war and piracy as well. So is it really in their best interests to have only "loyal" or "lawful" pilots?
No.
"Angels live, they never die,
Apart from us, behind the sky.
They're fading souls who've turned to ice,
So ashen white in paradise."
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Pieter Tuulinen
Tyrathlion Interstellar Rote Kapelle
6905
|
Posted - 2016.12.12 18:26:41 -
[27] - Quote
Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?
How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?
For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead
in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a
hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Arataka Research Consortium
617
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Posted - 2016.12.12 18:36:46 -
[28] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?
How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures? Scope sensationalizing. Imagine what message it sends - "Don't go to frontiers, you'll die there. Stay loyal to your Empire." Ofcourse they did evac. But only CO2 has the exact numbers for that - can't fund anyhting on galnet.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd. Follow us on GalNet!
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Samira Kernher
2914
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Posted - 2016.12.12 18:37:52 -
[29] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?
How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?
With large scale evacuation efforts, you can reasonably evac several million per day. Look at the Seyllin evacuation for numbers. 6 days is a long time, but 132 million is a lot of people. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2647
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Posted - 2016.12.12 19:00:58 -
[30] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Wait... Don't these things take days to go down, from investment to explosive finale?
How did none of the occupants evacuate in all that time? Or did it somehow go immediately down without the preliminary operations that are common to taking down large structures?
Many of them probably did. However, the citadel was still combat-effective, which means it almost certainly still had at least 500,000 to a couple million crew. |
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