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Rain6637
NulzSec
34632
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Posted - 2016.12.25 23:03:49 -
[61] - Quote
A continuation of my earlier thought about ship class-based PVP sites: that would limit alphas to lower level sites which could be a linear incentive. Linear as opposed to realizing either too much or not enough improvement for going Omega.
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Vigirr
249
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Posted - 2016.12.25 23:08:57 -
[62] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:A continuation of my earlier thought about ship class-based PVP sites: that would limit alphas to lower level sites which could be a linear incentive. Linear as opposed to realizing either too much or not enough improvement for going Omega.
Rules, regulations and opt outs weaken the walls of the open world sandbox concept, lets not go there. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8544
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Posted - 2016.12.26 01:27:44 -
[63] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Rain6637 wrote:A continuation of my earlier thought about ship class-based PVP sites: that would limit alphas to lower level sites which could be a linear incentive. Linear as opposed to realizing either too much or not enough improvement for going Omega. Rules, regulations and opt outs weaken the walls of the open world sandbox concept, lets not go there.
The game also already has this. It's called Faction Warfare.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Chainsaw Plankton
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2349
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Posted - 2016.12.26 02:14:30 -
[64] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Malcanis wrote: The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.
What does "more entertaining" mean? I'm certain a lot of PvE players would riot or do something else when missions, anomalies, incursions and mining become more random or active aka "fun" while crashing the efficiency or AFKablity and therefore their ISK/h. The drifter desaster and the NPC miners showing that clearly. Burners and sleeper caches are also rather niche, and I wouldn't consider them a big success. What do you think it means? the problem with that is fun/entertaining has a high level of personal interpretation, it is also something that can't easily be coded. I think a lot of PVE could be done better, I just don't have any quick and easy solutions. I think the burner missions are a step in the right direction. Drifters are almost interesting although the doomsday mechanic feels super forced. Every so often someone just loses a ship, sure they added tracking to it and sometimes you can avoid it but I'm not sure about the survival rate and the payouts.
I guess it all boils down to it will either be too easy and farm able and thus not fun in the long run. Incursions, burners, wh pve all seem interesting but it didn't take us long to figure out how to min/max it. or too hard and not interesting enough to be fun. I'm perfectly okay with losing a ship because you screwed up but I'm not sure that the random you die mechanic of drifters is well thought out. Now we shouldn't expect loss free pve as loss is half of what keeps Eve interesting but with pve it seems too easy to either bring more people or bling fit to survive.
I was going to try and say something about drifter incursions but they apparently aren't in game right now? or is there just not one active?
@ChainsawPlankto
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
5410
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Posted - 2016.12.26 08:59:06 -
[65] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Malcanis wrote: The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.
What does "more entertaining" mean? I'm certain a lot of PvE players would riot or do something else when missions, anomalies, incursions and mining become more random or active aka "fun" while crashing the efficiency or AFKablity and therefore their ISK/h. The drifter desaster and the NPC miners showing that clearly. Burners and sleeper caches are also rather niche, and I wouldn't consider them a big success. What do you think it means? the problem with that is fun/entertaining has a high level of personal interpretation, it is also something that can't easily be coded. I think a lot of PVE could be done better, I just don't have any quick and easy solutions. I think the burner missions are a step in the right direction. Drifters are almost interesting although the doomsday mechanic feels super forced. Every so often someone just loses a ship, sure they added tracking to it and sometimes you can avoid it but I'm not sure about the survival rate and the payouts. I guess it all boils down to it will either be too easy and farm able and thus not fun in the long run. Incursions, burners, wh pve all seem interesting but it didn't take us long to figure out how to min/max it. or too hard and not interesting enough to be fun. I'm perfectly okay with losing a ship because you screwed up but I'm not sure that the random you die mechanic of drifters is well thought out. Now we shouldn't expect loss free pve as loss is half of what keeps Eve interesting but with pve it seems too easy to either bring more people or bling fit to survive. I was going to try and say something about drifter incursions but they apparently aren't in game right now? or is there just not one active?
The AI behind Drifter Incursions was broken beyond repair and CCP removed them once it was obvious that they would never work as intended. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
5410
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Posted - 2016.12.26 09:11:35 -
[66] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:PvE in EVE serves two functions:
1) Introduction of isk, production materials and sourcing of un-producible modules/BPs to the market. 2) Settings which enable PvP, in all its forms, defined as competition/conflict/interaction between players.
To simplistically boil it down, PvE introduces material/isk to EVE, and PvP destroys it.
They co-exist in a symbiotic balance and relationship.
The closest analogy I can think of, is the fluid and continuous ocean ecosystems of our Earth.
Denizens of the ocean flock to sources of resources, be they seaweed/algae/krill near the surface, carcasses that have descended to the ocean floor, geothermal vents, coral reefs etc.
These denizens subsist on the raw materials introduced to the ecosystem, and incorporate them into themselves. They metabolize them into something more than its constituent parts.
And upon these, feed the predators.
Crustaceans utilize the shells of molluscs as armor, similar to a capsuleer with a looted deadspace shield booster. Remora swim alongside sharks, hoping for a few bits of food. Eels lurk in crevices, stretching out to catch unwary prey. Calamari/octupses "cloak" themselves in camouflage. Deep sea fish "bait" their prey with attractive lights. Parrot fish peck at coral reefs.
The complexity of this system is staggering, and in constant inter-related flux. Every interaction is completely unique.
The oceans are a pervasive PvP environment, of competition/conflict/interaction. Within them, PvE activities source, introduce and complicate materials, competitively (PvP) Which then, necessarily, are subsequently "destroyed" by violence (PvP) The very fact that PvE is essential is the strongest argument for making it more entertaining.
And actually PvP isn't the main ISK sink of the game, by a good stretch. EVE economy would be totally borked if it relied on PvP alone for removing ISK.
Of course, it is more marketable "Extract - Build - Destroy - Repeat" than "Extract - Build - Unsub - Repeat", but reality is what it is. Most of the stuff being built is never destroyed, it just leaves the economy via lapsed accounts. |
Salvos Rhoska
1755
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Posted - 2016.12.26 09:16:55 -
[67] - Quote
Boiling it down, I see 3 options to improving "entertainment" in PvE:
1) Adding minigames to currently passive PvE, such as mining, PI, research and production.Perhaps even to station trading. These minigames dont necessarily need to supplant the existing passive system, but can exist parallel to them as an alternative way to achieve the same ends.
Additionally, EVE, remarkably, currently lacks a mobile device app game, which is a huge and lucrative market.
2) Introducing randomized risk to PvE, to make encounters more unpredictable.
3) Inttroducing more PvP to PvE activities. Not necessarily as ship destruction, but nonetheless as competition/interaction (whether as cooperative or competition) between players.
The problem is that what constitutes "fun" and "entertaining" is so subjective.
However I would argue that following the three directions above, make PvE more dynamic, varied, non-passive, and thus more entertaining, atleast in aggregate.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3198
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Posted - 2016.12.26 09:23:38 -
[68] - Quote
Drifter incursions were abandoned.
If asked for entertaining PvE ... I'm not relying on PvE for ISK generation, but I like everything with a competetive aspect, where you can / have to outsmart other players for a better reward plus the opportunity to get a kill or fight. Good examples are the event sites and crashing DED runners in lowsec. To foster this, rewards should be more about loot/tags than immediate bounty payments.
I also like traveling through hostile nullsec and "stealing" the best relic sites while being hunted. The mini game is about exactly right, whereas I can't be bothered by complex puzzles or sites with random timers or difficult to mitigate risks, which are not PvP-related. I can't stand losing against some program code, hence just ignoring this kind of content. No game AI will ever be able to compete with the (real) PvP expierience.
Beside that, it's IMO important to keep simple and "AFKable" but rewarding PvE in the game, especially (maybe only) in lower sec space, to provide a steady income source and keep the hunters busy.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
65
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Posted - 2016.12.26 10:05:36 -
[69] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:
If asked for entertaining PvE ... I'm not relying on PvE for ISK generation, but I like everything with a competetive aspect, where you can / have to outsmart other players for a better reward plus the opportunity to get a kill or fight. Good examples are the event sites and crashing DED runners in lowsec.
Attacking a DED-Runner with several t3 ships und several logi is called outsmarting people? It's ok and fine to do so, but "outsmart" is something else in my opinion. |
Salvos Rhoska
1756
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Posted - 2016.12.26 10:29:56 -
[70] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote: Attacking a DED-Runner with several t3 ships und several logi is called outsmarting people? It's ok and fine to do so, but "outsmart" is something else in my opinion.
This is a facile misrepresentation of what was said. I detest people that imply things that where not said, and then argue them as if they where.
Yes, several t3s and several logis pinning a DED runner constitutes "outsmarting" them. Categorically, that fleet has more brains than the sole DED runner, cas it comprises the organisational intellect of several individuals vs one.
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Keno Skir
1117
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Posted - 2016.12.26 10:51:28 -
[71] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:
If asked for entertaining PvE ... I'm not relying on PvE for ISK generation, but I like everything with a competetive aspect, where you can / have to outsmart other players for a better reward plus the opportunity to get a kill or fight. Good examples are the event sites and crashing DED runners in lowsec.
Attacking a DED-Runner with several t3 ships und several logi is called outsmarting people? It's ok and fine to do so, but "outsmart" is something else in my opinion.
You made up the extra T3 and several Logi there to make your imaginary point sound more legitimate. It's famously called a "straw man" argument.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't make a good enough plan. Winning has absolutely nothing to do with fair fights. The DED runner wasn't skilled enough to not get blown up so yes categorically he was outsmarted, regardless how many other "big nasty peeveepee'ers" he chose to bring with him.
Suck it up
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Keno Skir
1117
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Posted - 2016.12.26 10:52:39 -
[72] - Quote
Haha, we wrote same thing at same time Salvos
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
8559
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Posted - 2016.12.26 10:53:51 -
[73] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Aplysia Vejun wrote: Attacking a DED-Runner with several t3 ships und several logi is called outsmarting people? It's ok and fine to do so, but "outsmart" is something else in my opinion.
This is a facile misrepresentation of what was said. I detest people that imply things that where not said, and then argue against that as if it where. Its intellectually dishonest, disrespectful, an argumentative fallacy, and contrived. I dont expect you to understand why, or how that is so. You cant.You lack that capacity. But it is so. Despite the above, your "argument" still fails anyways, in that yes, several t3s and several logis pinning a DED runner constitutes "outsmarting" them. Categorically, that fleet has more brains than the sole DED runner, a) there are more intellects involved b) those intellects are working in organisation against the one. When a pack of wolves or hyenas takes down an isolated prey, its quite clear whom outsmarted who.
Additionally, if you're running DEDs solo, and without support, in an environment where this can happen, then it's probably not all that hard to outsmart you in the first place.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
600
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Posted - 2016.12.26 11:00:55 -
[74] - Quote
sci0gon wrote:firstly Nicolai Serkanner you need to invest in a greater vocabulary instead of a one word weak post.
"No", summed up exactly the value of the post I was replying to. Anything else if fluff repeated a million times aleady on these forums.
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Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
66
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Posted - 2016.12.26 12:17:23 -
[75] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:
You made up the extra T3 and several Logi there to make your imaginary point sound more legitimate. It's famously called a "straw man" argument.
you need to be cautious to survive in ded sites in low. and no, that argument isn't made up - it's a usual occurence in low. usually you see them way before coming to the site with the whole gang. so you can just leave.
itelligent/smart would be: come with one ship, heavily tanked. try to lure the ded-runner to engage you and then log in your alts. Some are quite skilled at doing this. But this strategy has a risk: IF the tanked ship can't hold it out long enough you lose a ship. Which is why only very few try this. Or they use tengus able to tank 2k dps. |
Salvos Rhoska
1760
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Posted - 2016.12.26 12:27:38 -
[76] - Quote
Aplysia Vejun wrote: Or they use tengus able to tank 2k dps.
Tengus are a cancer.
Im currently training into 2, after loooong reluctance, cos there is no way around its OPness.
Expect an immediate dramatic nerf exactly on the day I finish training, cos my karma, timing and luck is THAT bad.
I wont tell you when that is, to keep you guessing, but I can almost guarantee it will happen on the exact day.
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sci0gon
Kaira Innovations Superior Eve Engineering
80
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Posted - 2016.12.26 15:05:27 -
[77] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:1) Adding minigames to currently passive PvE: Such as mining, PI, research and production.Perhaps even to station trading. These minigames dont necessarily need to supplant the existing passive system, but can exist parallel to them as an alternative way to achieve the same ends, or improve the result (at greater risk, but potentially greater reward)
Firstly I personally would not consider any of those to be PVE as i've always referred to them as both industry and trading.
a mini game on mining would be good cos its boring as f.... but people still love it for some reason and minerals are needed as the hauler spawns dont drop enough minerals to cover whats required to build the ships and everything else in eve.
a mini game on research and production might be good if they cut down the time it takes to do those jobs at a set percentage based on how well the player does.
a mini game on station trading however would be bad unless it starts based on players who do the 0.01 isk game :P
Salvos Rhoska wrote:(NB: Additionally, EVE, remarkably, currently lacks a mobile device app game, which is a huge and lucrative market. I think this is a serious oversight. There is so much potential for creating a completely new profession, with EVE integration, for players to play on their smart phones/tablet whilst they cant play EVE proper on the move, at work, sitting alone at the back of a bar etc).
Eve doesnt have any apps themselves but there are a few player made apps out there that tie into the system and gives you information.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:2) Introducing randomized risk to PvE: To make encounters more unpredictable. This is tough to balance. Vets with huge SP base and wide ship skills will be able to adapt, but newer players will be frustrated when a DED or Mission they are running suddenly becomes unfinishable in their hull options (plus potentially blowing them up). Forced RNG like this is usually unpopular. Perhaps best implemented in high level content such as 10/10 DEDs and Incursions, where vets have a chance/capacity to adapt/respond to the RNG.
When I tried to get PVE changed a while ago this was one of the main factors I wanted to see introduced especially on missions. lvl 1,2,3 missions are ok i guess but for level 4 missions + it should force players to think for themselves and not rely on mission guides, though i do realize that is difficult for some especially when they dont even know how to use something so simple as google....
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Salvos Rhoska
1766
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Posted - 2016.12.26 15:30:02 -
[78] - Quote
Posts like the above make me clench my teeth to powder, stare, and wonder why I even bother.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1224
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Posted - 2016.12.26 16:03:54 -
[79] - Quote
Akis Talanas wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:Akis Talanas wrote:So change this...eve will not die...just your "ganky,griefy stupid eve" will be adjusted to a more "normal" game..... like all the other games around.
That's not considered "bad",that's called "necessary".....
Okay so we change eve from what it is, a massive scale pvp game, into something else. A game where you can mine, do industry, all of the pve side of the game. Well what then? Who is going to buy your minerals? Who is going to buy the ships you produce? Quickly the market will become saturated and there will be near 0 profit on everything. Without the pvp destruction side of the game there couldn't be the same creation side. All meaning would have to come from NPC requests like "battle preparations: bring me 5 ravens" or other equally exciting things. The day eve goes from being a player driven game to an NPC driven game is the day I quit for good. Change is not bad....... You are complaining something like "but we did it that way for 13 years now...why change it" and don't see the reality around you.... You are arguing a standstill because "all is well as it is" ignoring a change in expectation for a game......for every game around Do you really see no problem here?
you did not address any of his objections in your post.
Do you see no problem here?
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Ban Mjolnir
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2016.12.26 16:06:56 -
[80] - Quote
I wouldn't mind missions where the objective is disputed - up the reward by the number of pilots involved. If four people are trying to rescue the damsel it might get interesting if only one gets the bacon. Add a couple of scram rats to the final explosion and watch mayhem ensue. |
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Salvos Rhoska
1767
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Posted - 2016.12.26 16:11:14 -
[81] - Quote
Ban Mjolnir wrote: I wouldn't mind missions where the objective is disputed - up the reward by the number of pilots involved. If four people are trying to rescue the damsel it might get interesting if only one gets the bacon. This is already possible, in terms of running sites together, or someone probing you down and invading your mission space.
Upping rewards according to number of participants is not an operable solution to anything. Last thing we need is mission multiboxing for even greater rewards.
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34640
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Posted - 2016.12.26 16:53:11 -
[82] - Quote
No wait this is an awesome idea
What if guristas had their own agents dispatching capsuleers to fight on their behalf in missions
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34640
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Posted - 2016.12.26 16:55:33 -
[83] - Quote
make anything behind deadspace gates into pockets of lowsec without concord. -5 modifier to sec because lore
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Ban Mjolnir
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2016.12.26 18:13:04 -
[84] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Ban Mjolnir wrote: I wouldn't mind missions where the objective is disputed - up the reward by the number of pilots involved. If four people are trying to rescue the damsel it might get interesting if only one gets the bacon. This is already possible, in terms of running sites together, or someone probing you down and invading your mission space. Upping rewards according to number of participants is not an operable solution to anything. Last thing we need is mission multiboxing for even greater rewards.
Only one participant per IP address? |
Salvos Rhoska
1769
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Posted - 2016.12.26 20:03:16 -
[85] - Quote
Ban Mjolnir wrote:Only one participant per IP address, or second hop. It should be fairly trivial to make it difficult and more efficient for said multiboxer to run 4 separate missions instead. They would probably be doing incursions anyway .
But you can already do collaboration of multiple players in all PvE, including high level DEDs and difficult WH content. Infact its usually required. Nobody to my knowledge has managed to multibox high end Incursions, solo.
If your idea of improving the "entertainment" of PvE is simply increasing its rewards, I cannot side with you on that.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
326
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Posted - 2016.12.26 21:25:53 -
[86] - Quote
Some of you won't like this, but PvE is inherently boring. Whatever boss or NPC they add to the game will end up being predictable. Predictable content is generally what PvE players will run, they like feeling fairly sure when going out that they will be safe. They get a sense of accomplishment from running the pve sites and winning. Fatally though, predictable = boring.
CCP has flirted with unpredictable PvE, in drifters and originally the burners, but even these have been mostly figured out and can be farmed if you google for a couple minutes. Truly unpredictable PvE would require constant dev attention to rework sites without unbalancing them, which would be a lot of work. Even if it was done, how many mission runners would take a mission vs a random number of enemies compared with rescue the damsel for the millionth time?
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5635
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Posted - 2016.12.26 22:01:12 -
[87] - Quote
Akis Talanas wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:Akis Talanas wrote:So change this...eve will not die...just your "ganky,griefy stupid eve" will be adjusted to a more "normal" game..... like all the other games around.
That's not considered "bad",that's called "necessary".....
Okay so we change eve from what it is, a massive scale pvp game, into something else. A game where you can mine, do industry, all of the pve side of the game. Well what then? Who is going to buy your minerals? Who is going to buy the ships you produce? Quickly the market will become saturated and there will be near 0 profit on everything. Without the pvp destruction side of the game there couldn't be the same creation side. All meaning would have to come from NPC requests like "battle preparations: bring me 5 ravens" or other equally exciting things. The day eve goes from being a player driven game to an NPC driven game is the day I quit for good. Change is not bad....... You are complaining something like "but we did it that way for 13 years now...why change it" and don't see the reality around you.... You are arguing a standstill because "all is well as it is" ignoring a change in expectation for a game......for every game around Do you really see no problem here?
No, there is no problem because you are completely mis-characterizing what he wrote. He was not arguing for no change, but that much of the change is in fact driven by the players. You cannot do what the OP suggests and retain the sandbox nature of the game. The whole idea is you set up a game (or any other environment) with some fairly simple rules/mechanics/etc. and let the players (or other entities) interact and build things...complicated things.
CCP does come along and add new things, but they tend not to constrain players. The thing that makes Eve different is that the players are largely unconstrained relative to other MMOs. Here players build up giant empires...and tear them down.
Of course, you won't have much fun if you just expect CCP to entertain you via missions which is about the only thing in game that does not have some element of competition (aka PvP).
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5635
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Posted - 2016.12.26 22:34:04 -
[88] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Some of you won't like this, but PvE is inherently boring. Whatever boss or NPC they add to the game will end up being predictable. Predictable content is generally what PvE players will run, they like feeling fairly sure when going out that they will be safe. They get a sense of accomplishment from running the pve sites and winning. Fatally though, predictable = boring.
CCP has flirted with unpredictable PvE, in drifters and originally the burners, but even these have been mostly figured out and can be farmed if you google for a couple minutes. Truly unpredictable PvE would require constant dev attention to rework sites without unbalancing them, which would be a lot of work. Even if it was done, how many mission runners would take a mission vs a random number of enemies compared with rescue the damsel for the millionth time?
Or adding other players to the mix to create competition and innovation....which brings us to Rain6637's idea...which is interesting. Have agents from different factions sending players into a mission to compete for the objective.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34644
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Posted - 2016.12.26 23:38:26 -
[89] - Quote
I'm not sure how you would solve the timing of ensuring there is an encounter, but as for mechanics we can loot containers so the requirements for CTF are there.
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Rain6637
NulzSec
34644
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Posted - 2016.12.26 23:40:26 -
[90] - Quote
combine like, the maze site with 10 on 10 capture the flag.
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