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Asimov Andies Gallente Red Blade Industries	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:44:00 - [1] Why is everyone whining about PVP. my personal opinion is it is a laughable joke. "The main focus of EVE should not be PVP" "PVP isn't everything". First off, PVP is built in and the fundamentals of EVE. Capitalism is PVP. Now another thing to keep in mind is the intro movie to the game. In that movie it states it is a time of conflict between corporations. As in most things, read/watch/listen to the intro's, it tells you a lot about what your about to get into. -=#=- Angry beer bottles make Kaemonn a sad panda NO It's Been Touched
Thread Winner Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:45:00 - [2] Because no one wants to admit traders are pwning your wallets more than any PvPer ever will NERF ISK! Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers!
Asimov Andies Gallente Red Blade Industries	Posted - 2007.04.12 20:48:00 - [3] Agreed, I climb from 3 mill to 50 mill in 3 hours of trading. -=#=- Angry beer bottles make Kaemonn a sad panda NO It's Been Touched
Domitianvs Amarr MCL Industries	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:00:00 - [4] Because not all of us have to show off how big our E-peen is just to make up for other..... shortcomings... in RL?.....
Thread Winner Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Domitianvs Because not all of us have to show off how big our E-peen is just to make up for other..... shortcomings... in RL?..... WOOP WOOP STEREO TYPE ALERT STEREO TYPE ALERT According to the internet all PvPers = Small in the pudneal region teens There fore all PvErs = Middle aged men with dead end jobs seeking some peace from middle management Thats how you think right? Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers!
Bonny Lee Caldari God's Army Corp OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:05:00 - [6] But some show how small... uhhm you know what i mean. Why the hell did you join EvE if you want to change it to some carebear-crap. There are so many other games where you can live the way you want. If you come to EvE you should adept and not whine the whole day. There are lots of things you can do if you are wardeced etc. and want to avoid PvP. Eve isnt easy-mode. Think about it.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Thread Winner Originally by: Domitianvs Because not all of us have to show off how big our E-peen is just to make up for other..... shortcomings... in RL?..... WOOP WOOP STEREO TYPE ALERT STEREO TYPE ALERT According to the internet all PvPers = Small in the pudneal region teens There fore all PvErs = Middle aged men with dead end jobs seeking some peace from middle management Thats how you think right? The truth is PvPers just want to enjoy their game. Their problem is they have little respect for people who do not share their love of their game. That said, not all PvPers are carebear hunting cowards who get their thrills fighting opponents who offer no challenge. These types of PvP players do exist, though, and they're a bigger headache than they have the right to be. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh ([email protected])
Thread Winner Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Thread Winner Originally by: Domitianvs Because not all of us have to show off how big our E-peen is just to make up for other..... shortcomings... in RL?..... WOOP WOOP STEREO TYPE ALERT STEREO TYPE ALERT According to the internet all PvPers = Small in the pudneal region teens There fore all PvErs = Middle aged men with dead end jobs seeking some peace from middle management Thats how you think right? The truth is PvPers just want to enjoy their game. The problem is that some of them have little respect for people who do not share their love of their game. That said, not all PvPers are carebear hunting cowards who get their thrills fighting opponents who offer no challenge. These types of PvP players do exist, though, and they're a bigger headache than they have the right to be. Fixed Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers!
Jimer Lins Gallente Sanctuary	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:12:00 - [9] PVP is a core mechanic of EVE, to be certain. However, it's mostly centered around the starship combat portion. Now, it'd be interesting to see economic warfare introduced- large industrial alliances declaring embargoes, refusing to sell to certain corps, cornering markets and so forth. The possibilities are limitless.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Thread Winner Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Thread Winner Originally by: Domitianvs Because not all of us have to show off how big our E-peen is just to make up for other..... shortcomings... in RL?..... WOOP WOOP STEREO TYPE ALERT STEREO TYPE ALERT According to the internet all PvPers = Small in the pudneal region teens There fore all PvErs = Middle aged men with dead end jobs seeking some peace from middle management Thats how you think right? The truth is PvPers just want to enjoy their game. The problem is that some of them have little respect for people who do not share their love of their game. That said, not all PvPers are carebear hunting cowards who get their thrills fighting opponents who offer no challenge. These types of PvP players do exist, though, and they're a bigger headache than they have the right to be. Fixed Fair 'nuff. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Timmeh ([email protected])

Thread Winner Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Thread Winner Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Thread Winner Originally by: Domitianvs Because not all of us have to show off how big our E-peen is just to make up for other..... shortcomings... in RL?..... WOOP WOOP STEREO TYPE ALERT STEREO TYPE ALERT According to the internet all PvPers = Small in the pudneal region teens There fore all PvErs = Middle aged men with dead end jobs seeking some peace from middle management Thats how you think right? The truth is PvPers just want to enjoy their game. The problem is that some of them have little respect for people who do not share their love of their game. That said, not all PvPers are carebear hunting cowards who get their thrills fighting opponents who offer no challenge. These types of PvP players do exist, though, and they're a bigger headache than they have the right to be. Fixed Fair 'nuff. Remember Sweeping generalizations are bad Fight against log off tactics to protect your space from isk farmers!
Domitianvs Amarr MCL Industries	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:42:00 - [12] Quote: WOOP WOOP STEREO TYPE ALERT STEREO TYPE ALERT According to the internet all PvPers = Small in the pudneal region teens There fore all PvErs = Middle aged men with dead end jobs seeking some peace from middle management Thats how you think right? Oh I am sorry, did you expect me to take this thread seriously? I mean come on, its a whining thread about people who whine. I know that a good majority of PVPers are just out to have fun and are not asshats, but there are some out there that do nothing but try to be jerks just for the sake of being jerks and then hide behind the rules. Just like the vast majority of PVEers dont complain about PVP all of the time like the Asimov Andies insinuated.
Asimov Andies Gallente Red Blade Industries	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:50:00 - [13] Edited by: Asimov Andies on 12/04/2007 21:47:01 Originally by: Jimer Lins PVP is a core mechanic of EVE, to be certain. However, it's mostly centered around the starship combat portion. Now, it'd be interesting to see economic warfare introduced- large industrial alliances declaring embargoes, refusing to sell to certain corps, cornering markets and so forth. The possibilities are limitless. Now I would love to see that. Embargoes, restricted trade access, Bribery to refuse selling to a specific corp... Would make EVE true PVP... true capitalism Originally by: Domitianvs Quote: WOOP WOOP STEREO TYPE ALERT STEREO TYPE ALERT According to the internet all PvPers = Small in the pudneal region teens There fore all PvErs = Middle aged men with dead end jobs seeking some peace from middle management Thats how you think right? Oh I am sorry, did you expect me to take this thread seriously? I mean come on, its a whining thread about people who whine. I know that a good majority of PVPers are just out to have fun and are not asshats, but there are some out there that do nothing but try to be jerks just for the sake of being jerks and then hide behind the rules. Just like the vast majority of PVEers dont complain about PVP all of the time like the Asimov Andies insinuated. Notice in the OP, I said Everyone, no generalizations made. train reading to one before posting next time pleas, thank you. -=#=- Angry beer bottles make Kaemonn a sad panda NO It's Been Touched
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:53:00 - [14] Originally by: Thread Winner Remember Sweeping generalizations are bad What do brooms have to do with this?
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Domitianvs Just like the vast majority of PVEers dont complain about PVP all of the time like the Asimov Andies insinuated. Also most of the "anti-PvP" threads popping up lately aren't directed at PvP, but instead at the WarDec system which a decent quantity of players think is broken. As for PvP... If I go into lowsec and get ganked, I get ganked. If I loot someone's can and get ganked, I get ganked. If someone challenges me and I grab something from their can to set aggro and get ganked, I get ganked. If someone suicides my mining ship and I croak, I croak. If someone loots my mining can (hard to do now, I don't jet mine) and I shoot, but they shoot better, I die. Fact of life and facts of EvE, in each situation I have a choice to make and my response dictates how things play out. There is little of that in the wardec system. Non-consensual PvP != WarDec system. One can be broken or out of tune while the other is fine. So says a CareBear <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Domitianvs Amarr MCL Industries	Posted - 2007.04.12 21:57:00 - [16] Quote: Notice in the OP, I said Everyone, no generalizations made. train reading to one before posting next time pleas, thank you. Yeah, cause all the PVP people complain about.. PVP and how it should not be the main focus of Eve? Holy crap, whats next.. Miners complaining about how Mining Asteroids should be taken out of the game? You might have said everyone but it was pretty obvious who you were talking about.
Jimer Lins Gallente Sanctuary	Posted - 2007.04.12 22:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Asimov Andies Edited by: Asimov Andies on 12/04/2007 21:47:01 Originally by: Jimer Lins PVP is a core mechanic of EVE, to be certain. However, it's mostly centered around the starship combat portion. Now, it'd be interesting to see economic warfare introduced- large industrial alliances declaring embargoes, refusing to sell to certain corps, cornering markets and so forth. The possibilities are limitless. Now I would love to see that. Embargoes, restricted trade access, Bribery to refuse selling to a specific corp... Would make EVE true PVP... true capitalism It would sure give the so-called "carebears" a way to fight back that doesn't force them into a playstyle they don't like. It would create true economic powerhouses too. Maybe I'll write up a list of suggested features over on the other forum, but I'm thinking things like: * Trade Sanctions. Your corp can refuse to sell to specific corps via the market. Sanctions would require a specific corp role and a trade skill (Economic Warfare III, anyone?). Only individual corporations can be sanctioned, and the number is limited by skill. * Embargo. Your corp or alliance can refuse to sell to a specific corp OR alliance AND refuse to buy anything from them via the market, contracts and so forth. ISK cannot be granted between characters in embargoed alliances and the embargoing alliance. Embargoes can be declared by any alliance whose CEO has the proper skills, but requires an ISK payout every week to maintain the embargo. * Market Control. If your corporation or alliance controls enough of the trade in a specific station, system, constellation or region, they can gain market control (ala sovereignity). Control of the market is gained if 80% of the ISK for purchases goes to your corp or alliance. To be maintained, the volume of transactions cannot drop below a certain percentage of when you gained that control (in other words, if you take it over, it has to keep working at normal volume or you lose control) Market control grants several abilities: * Tariffs. Non-corp goods or products can have tariffs applied, up to 10%. Punitive tariffs for corporations in war or that are embargoed can be levied up to 50%. Tariffs can only be imposed if you conrol the market for a station. * Blockade. Embargoed alliances cannot place buy or sell orders in a blockaded system. Blockades cost ISK to maintain and require that your alliance have market control in the constellation the system is in. This is just off the top of my head, and I'll flesh it out later. But it's a starting point. Imagine an industrial corps trying to gain market control in Jita, and the resulting attempts to wrest that control back with blockade runners to bring lower priced goods to market (to avoid someone gaining control), or if someone gained control, wardeccing and trying to destroy any haulers bringing goods in to maintain that control. Of course, Jita's already laggy enough as it is, but that's just for an example.
Graharan Caldari Minmatar Marines 5th Column	Posted - 2007.04.12 23:01:00 - [18] ^ That's all nice and good and all, but all it takes is one alt and the contract system to get around it. Alt buys something on the market and item trades it to their main character.
Jimer Lins Gallente Sanctuary	Posted - 2007.04.12 23:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Graharan ^ That's all nice and good and all, but all it takes is one alt and the contract system to get around it. Alt buys something on the market and item trades it to their main character. Unfortunately, alts and metagaming are a larger problem.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.12 23:07:00 - [20] At least that way you have some inconvinience too. I keep hearing about how the market is PvP, etc. But until we get the ability to "deny service" it really isn't. Give us another battle ground. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base

Terranid Meester Knights Hospitalier	Posted - 2007.04.12 23:09:00 - [21] I like your style Jimer Lins - those ideas such as blockade (however it is implementated) is the kind of economic warfare I would like to see more of in EVE.
Tolomea Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.04.12 23:50:00 - [22] Originally by: Graharan ^ That's all nice and good and all, but all it takes is one alt and the contract system to get around it. Alt buys something on the market and item trades it to their main character. your right Originally by: Jimer Lins Unfortunately, alts and metagaming are a larger problem. and unfortunately for you alts and meta gaming are a very well established part of eve and arn't going away anytime soon. but all is not lost, I think you limit it to much, if you open it right up then I think it might work by open it right up I mean be able to deny lots of corporations / alliances at once and be able to deny the noob corps, also the option to deny everyone except approved friends. perhaps a better system would be to have service groups, the skills determine how many groups you can have and what restrictions you put on them, and then tie the groups to the standing system so a corp might for example create the following groups, corp and alliance, 20% discount, allies 10% discount, enemies no trade at all, others stated prices. this would require an overhaul to the market though, as a buyer you'd need to see the actual price you'd buy at, and you still need to see those offers you can't accept but the need to indicate that they are not available. also I think all orders would need to have names/corps on them I'm going to stop right now, but I think you've hit on a good idea and I have a lot more to add
Nyabinghi Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.04.12 23:52:00 - [23] You could make a "preferred client list". Basically people, corps, alliances you know and are on good terms with. Trade exclusively with them and they in turn trade only within that network. Prices for things inside that network could be far cheaper than outside of that network. One of the problems EVE suffers from is that there is such an abundance of just about everything that can be bought, which seems rather unnatural. What if EVE went through a drought in certain minerals? That would, for as long as the drought existed, have a significant impact on the game dynamics. Miners would be kings, haulers would get large security escorts through systems, people would have to conserve on ammo, etc. Now THAT would be interesting, make EVE feel more alive. ***
Orion Moonstar The Plexus Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.12 23:53:00 - [24] I just think it's funny how people seem to think EvE is all PvP, because it isn't. You can join a non-noob corp and still not have to fight all the time, you just can't venture into the insecure areas...
Jimer Lins Gallente Sanctuary	Posted - 2007.04.13 09:25:00 - [25] I refined the "Economic Warfare" concept and expanded on it a bit, then posted it in the F&I forum. For those interested: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=506008


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