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Ore Hauler - For Alphas

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Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5158	Posted - 2017.01.08 21:45:41 - [31] - Quote Dior Ambraelle wrote: Danika Princip wrote: So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator? Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here. The suggestion is to move the Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos and Hoarder (do we even need this ship?) to the ORE industrials group. Every other industrial - the rest of the t1 haulers, the t2 haulers, the freighters and jump freighters - would remain as they are right now. This would also prevent alpha clones from using these ships. So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places?
Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2017.01.08 22:09:43 - [32] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Dior Ambraelle wrote: Danika Princip wrote: So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator? Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here. The suggestion is to move the Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos and Hoarder (do we even need this ship?) to the ORE industrials group. Every other industrial - the rest of the t1 haulers, the t2 haulers, the freighters and jump freighters - would remain as they are right now. This would also prevent alpha clones from using these ships. So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places? So... Every other faction is using their "fast" hauler as the base of their DST, but Gallente decided to use the PI ship? Does anyone have any facepalms I can borrow? If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5158	Posted - 2017.01.08 22:15:02 - [33] - Quote Relic of the old lineup. Other races using their tanky hauler for the DST doesn't really mean a lot when two of them only have two hauler hulls.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3013	Posted - 2017.01.09 00:42:59 - [34] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places? Obviously the T2 BPCs would come from researching Iteron V, which its model should be migrated to anyway, I think. But it doesn't have to have the same base model as its T1 counterpart. The Bustard uses the Badger Mk III model which isn't even used on a T1 ship. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kaia Lin Garemoko Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2017.02.23 18:52:17 - [35] - Quote Simply remove the Industrial racial restriction from Alpha accounts. Right now Alphas can use all races' Corvettes and Shuttles. Just add T1 Industrials to that list.
Cade Windstalker 875	Posted - 2017.02.23 19:00:30 - [36] - Quote blargderp wrote: last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however. As soon as you lift the racial restrictions though you can train a lot more combat-focused skills on a single character, and you either open up Pirate Faction stuff to Alphas or you have to line-item restrict it in a way that isn't intuitive just based on trainable skills. I'd agree that the hauler imbalance is an issue, but for once I'd actually prefer that CCP take the option that produces more work for them, because lifting racial restrictions would produce more issues down the line.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3570	Posted - 2017.02.23 20:50:13 - [37] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: blargderp wrote: last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however. As soon as you lift the racial restrictions though you can train a lot more combat-focused skills on a single character, and you either open up Pirate Faction stuff to Alphas or you have to line-item restrict it in a way that isn't intuitive just based on trainable skills. I'd agree that the hauler imbalance is an issue, but for once I'd actually prefer that CCP take the option that produces more work for them, because lifting racial restrictions would produce more issues down the line. The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3767	Posted - 2017.02.23 21:14:34 - [38] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access. Simple, elegant, fair. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cade Windstalker 882	Posted - 2017.02.23 21:18:03 - [39] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access. Simple, elegant, fair. I dunno, I think I'd personally go the other way, and let Alphas train any race's Industrial but nothing else to 1 so they can use anything. Does anyone have a particularly compelling reason Alphas shouldn't be able to use the specialized haulers? Especially the Ore one? By my estimation the only thing it does is allow them to risk more for the potential for greater rewards, since the specialist ships don't come close to matching Freighter volume and an Alpha clone can't fit too much in the way of tank.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3767	Posted - 2017.02.23 23:05:24 - [40] - Quote The specialised haulers can fit for tank, speed and evasion all at once without sacrificing capacity. Imo they are broken and remove choice. If i could I'd have them just deleted for everyone, not just alphas. I believe an alpha can still get 20k ehp out of them. Though id need to double check. But putting their requirements up isn't really to do with any of that. It's just a super easy fix to what i see as whining that wouldn't even exist if we had dealt with superfluous haulers properly. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2017.02.24 00:04:15 - [41] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: As soon as you lift the racial restrictions though you can train a lot more combat-focused skills on a single character, and you either open up Pirate Faction stuff to Alphas or you have to line-item restrict it in a way that isn't intuitive just based on trainable skills. If you check the ship tree for omega symbols, you can see the pirate faction ships aren't blocked from a faction's side, but from the pod. I think CCP actually wanted to keep the cross-faction training as an option for alpha clones at some point, but not allowing them to fly pirate ships. And the game does the job for you, because you can code this: more than one faction skill required = omega only. If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3031	Posted - 2017.02.24 06:07:40 - [42] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: The specialised haulers can fit for tank, speed and evasion all at once without sacrificing capacity. Imo they are broken and remove choice. If i could I'd have them just deleted for everyone, not just alphas. This. Their specialized bay should have its base capacity greatly reduced, but that bay should be increased with cargo expanders. It's fine if they haul more than a generalized industrial. But it's not fine if they haul more while fitting more tank. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Cade Windstalker 896	Posted - 2017.02.24 16:01:36 - [43] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: The specialised haulers can fit for tank, speed and evasion all at once without sacrificing capacity. Imo they are broken and remove choice. If i could I'd have them just deleted for everyone, not just alphas. This. Their specialized bay should have its base capacity greatly reduced, but that bay should be increased with cargo expanders. It's fine if they haul more than a generalized industrial. But it's not fine if they haul more while fitting more tank. I think that's probably the point of the specialized haulers, because overall they don't fit anything close to a Freighter and the only things they can haul are PI goods, Ore, Minerals (but not both in the same hauler), and charges. All of these are pretty basic goods, I think CCP wanted to make it safer to haul moderate quantities of them without making it easier to haul 2b in random modules through High Sec.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3031	Posted - 2017.02.24 17:05:19 - [44] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: I think that's probably the point of the specialized haulers, because overall they don't fit anything close to a Freighter and the only things they can haul are PI goods, Ore, Minerals (but not both in the same hauler), and charges. All of these are pretty basic goods, I think CCP wanted to make it safer to haul moderate quantities of them without making it easier to haul 2b in random modules through High Sec. Likely so. It's a reasonable goal, one I would support. But they failed miserably at that. A Miasmos can hold over 100 mil worth of compressed ore. An Epithal can hold over 500 mil worth of P2 materials. A Kryos can hold over 2 bil worth of nocxium, much higher value if anyone actually tried to fill it with higher minerals. Not to mention a light industrial can haul over a trillion ISK worth of officer modules without even putting cargo expanders on. A solution sits right in front of them but they either are unaware of it or choose to ignore it: give cargo expansion a stacking penalty and buff the base cargoholds on industrials. It won't prevent people from putting stupidly expensive things in their cargohold but it will enable short range logistics to operate in a useful fashion beyond shipping ore, minerals, or PI materials. At that point they could leave the specialized industrials the way they are already. Truth be told, the specialized industrials aren't overpowered, it is the regular industrials that are underpowered. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Cade Windstalker 900	Posted - 2017.02.24 18:40:54 - [45] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Likely so. It's a reasonable goal, one I would support. But they failed miserably at that. A Miasmos can hold over 100 mil worth of compressed ore. An Epithal can hold over 500 mil worth of P2 materials. A Kryos can hold over 2 bil worth of nocxium, much higher value if anyone actually tried to fill it with higher minerals. Not to mention a light industrial can haul over a trillion ISK worth of officer modules without even putting cargo expanders on. A solution sits right in front of them but they either are unaware of it or choose to ignore it: give cargo expansion a stacking penalty and buff the base cargoholds on industrials. It won't prevent people from putting stupidly expensive things in their cargohold but it will enable short range logistics to operate in a useful fashion beyond shipping ore, minerals, or PI materials. At that point they could leave the specialized industrials the way they are already. Truth be told, the specialized industrials aren't overpowered, it is the regular industrials that are underpowered. I don't really agree here. The basic industrials offer flexibility and can haul the 99% of items that fall outside what the specialized industrials hold. Also those numbers you've provided are a bit skewed. Noxicium is on the more valuable per m3 end of minerals, and it's unlikely anyone would put anything like that much value in a single T1 hauler since if you really need to you can smart bomb it to death on a gate in High Sec. Same goes for using officer modules in a comparison. That's ridiculous and we both know it. The P2s and the compressed ore are more realistic, but I don't think either of those amounts is particularly absurd considering inflation. You can still easily fit more value in regular T2 modules in a regular fully tanked industrial with good skills. The problem with stacking penalizing cargo holds is two fold in my mind. First, it impacts things at every level of the game, not just T1 industrials. It also creates a situation where there's basically a max number of those that it's worthwhile to fit, as opposed to presently where you're making a trade off with every expander, instead of fitting between 2 and 4 and then fitting whatever else because more expanders is a bit pointless. That sort of setup would also end up massively benefitting shield-bonused haulers in terms of general utility, since they wouldn't need to sacrifice nearly as much cargo space compared to one with more low slots that's intended to fit an armor tank but would still be able to fit more cargo and a shield tank in the current system. Also limiting expanders like that would let the armor ships fit basically everything in the form of shields, nanos, and expanders. Overall it just seems like this would limit fitting variety and choice rather than do anything actually interesting with it, not a fan personally.
Jasmin Yeva Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2017.02.24 22:14:08 - [46] - Quote I think it would be fairer to redistribute gallente spacialized haulers to Amarr/Caldari. So each faction will have 3 T1 haulers: fast hauler, tanky hauler and specialized hauler. Lore-wise I think it should look like this: * Minmatar -- the warrior nation -- keep their ammo hauler. * Caldari -- the industrialist nation -- get mineral hauler. * Amarr -- the slaver nation -- gets ore hauler :) They have slaves to mine all this ore. * Gallente -- the trader nation -- gets PI hauler.
Cade Windstalker 903	Posted - 2017.02.24 22:43:25 - [47] - Quote Jasmin Yeva wrote: I think it would be fairer to redistribute gallente spacialized haulers to Amarr/Caldari. So each faction will have 3 T1 haulers: fast hauler, tanky hauler and specialized hauler. Lore-wise I think it should look like this: * Minmatar -- the warrior nation -- keep their ammo hauler. * Caldari -- the industrialist nation -- get mineral hauler. * Amarr -- the slaver nation -- gets ore hauler :) They have slaves to mine all this ore. * Gallente -- the trader nation -- gets PI hauler. The problem with this is that it would require new ship assets, or at least a retexture. It would also result in people being unable to fly ships they could fly previously, which is the bigger concern, since CCP has a general rule about not restricting people from flying things they could previously fly. Also, realistically, it wouldn't even do much for the imbalance in specialized haulers between races, since ammo and PI hauling aren't nearly as valuable for an Alpha account as Ore or Mineral hauling.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3768	Posted - 2017.02.24 22:51:33 - [48] - Quote Just wanted to mention, the reason we have these specialised haulers is because the playerbase whined when ccp rebalanced haulers and said they were redundant and not needed any more. If specialised haulers had a real purpose they WOULD have been spread across races. Instead they are just an after thought. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jasmin Yeva Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2017.02.24 23:18:09 - [49] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Just wanted to mention, the reason we have these specialised haulers is because the playerbase whined when ccp rebalanced haulers and said they were redundant and not needed any more. If specialised haulers had a real purpose they WOULD have been spread across races. Instead they are just an after thought. All specialized haulers, except Miasmos, because it can haul ore. And everybody want to haul a good amount of ore. Perhaps there is really a need for ORE ore hauler.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3031	Posted - 2017.02.25 02:20:21 - [50] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: That sort of setup would also end up massively benefitting shield-bonused haulers No, it would do the opposite. It is the current system which massively benefits shield haulers. CCP had a choice to make, either: 1.) give both types similar base cargo and inadvertently allow armor haulers to carry way more because more low slots, or 2.) give shield haulers higher base cargohold because they have fewer low slots CCP chose #2. That means shield and armor haulers get the same amount when fully fitted with expanders, but shield haulers fit more tank that way than armor haulers do. A stacking penalty would ALLOW armor haulers to fit tank. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3769	Posted - 2017.02.25 02:46:31 - [51] - Quote Jasmin Yeva wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Just wanted to mention, the reason we have these specialised haulers is because the playerbase whined when ccp rebalanced haulers and said they were redundant and not needed any more. If specialised haulers had a real purpose they WOULD have been spread across races. Instead they are just an after thought. All specialized haulers, except Miasmos, because it can haul ore. And everybody want to haul a good amount of ore. Perhaps there is really a need for ORE ore hauler. The normal haulers are perfectly good for hauling ore. It only doesn't seem so because the miasmos is so stupidly broken. I literally go round in one with warp stabs stealing from anyone who can mines (hulks and skiffs). I have even intercepted cans that are being tractored to orcas. When they bring pvp fit cruisers can they point me? No. Can they dent my tank in the few seconds before i warp? No. At least if i had to use a traditional hauler I'd have to make a choice between tank and speed or how much i can steal in one go. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs


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