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Ore Hauler - For Alphas

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Lord Seriphim Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2017.01.05 14:03:16 - [1] - Quote Gallente have the Miasmos Amarr, Caldari and Minmitar dont get one , with Alpha play can you please either add one to each race or create a Ore faction one that alphas can fly thats the same as the miasmos thankyou
blargderp United Earth Space Council 15	Posted - 2017.01.05 15:23:50 - [2] - Quote last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however.
Do Little Virgin Plc Evictus. 710	Posted - 2017.01.05 16:27:59 - [3] - Quote The specialized haulers do give Gallente an advantage and I expect CCP to adjust the balance over the winter. The easiest solution would be to move Miasmos, Kyros, Epithal and Hoarder to Ore and give Alphas the ability to train Ore industrial level 1 - would also unlock Noctis and the salvaging profession. I don't think that would be a problem.
Shu t'Me 19	Posted - 2017.01.05 17:55:17 - [4] - Quote So make a Gallente alpha character. Or, pay the subscription.
Amarisen Gream Divine Demise Sherwood Hisec Industrial Technologies 308	Posted - 2017.01.05 18:40:55 - [5] - Quote Hopeful CCP will do something about this soon(tm) "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 DIDE- is open to new members
Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 32	Posted - 2017.01.05 19:36:33 - [6] - Quote Do Little wrote: The specialized haulers do give Gallente an advantage and I expect CCP to adjust the balance over the winter. The easiest solution would be to move Miasmos, Kyros, Epithal and Hoarder to Ore and give Alphas the ability to train Ore industrial level 1 - would also unlock Noctis and the salvaging profession. I don't think that would be a problem. The Hoarder doesn't really seem to be the style of ORE, but I agree with the rest. Alpha clones could clean the space after l4 security missions, I don't think too many omegas would mind this. If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
blargderp United Earth Space Council 15	Posted - 2017.01.05 19:43:08 - [7] - Quote Dior Ambraelle wrote: Do Little wrote: The specialized haulers do give Gallente an advantage and I expect CCP to adjust the balance over the winter. The easiest solution would be to move Miasmos, Kyros, Epithal and Hoarder to Ore and give Alphas the ability to train Ore industrial level 1 - would also unlock Noctis and the salvaging profession. I don't think that would be a problem. The Hoarder doesn't really seem to be the style of ORE, but I agree with the rest. Alpha clones could clean the space after l4 security missions, I don't think too many omegas would mind this. I personally would not want alphas scanning me down and stealing my salvage before I can get to it, then again they would get CONCORDed if they tried to tractor any of my wrecks and salvaging in a noctis without tractor beams is a pretty silly thing to do.
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5142	Posted - 2017.01.05 19:45:00 - [8] - Quote Back in my day, you'd bolt a bunch of salvagers onto a destroyer to clean up a mission. Why can an alpha not do this? Why do you need a noctis to salvage anything?
Lugh Crow-Slave 3489	Posted - 2017.01.05 20:15:38 - [9] - Quote Then make a gal alpha then problem solved. Compressing it off a citadel also works fine BLOPS Hauler
Matthias Ancaladron Wrath of Angels 61	Posted - 2017.01.05 20:48:32 - [10] - Quote blargderp wrote: last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however. That's a 20-30k different though. A bestower only gets up to like 15k-20k if you fill all the low slots with expanders. Gallente gets double the ore hold without sacrificing any speed. As far as ore hauling goes that's a massive difference. 100% more ore per trip.

Matthias Ancaladron Wrath of Angels 61	Posted - 2017.01.05 20:52:49 - [11] - Quote That said i don't want all the races to be identical. I hate the state of cruisers and frigates. They're all exactly the same across the races. I liked it better the way it used to be pre tiericide, when each ship just sort of did it's own thing. And it wasn't just a copy pasted logi ship, or ewarfare ship, or drone ship. The races have lost a little bit of individuality cause.
blargderp United Earth Space Council 15	Posted - 2017.01.05 21:12:15 - [12] - Quote Matthias Ancaladron wrote: blargderp wrote: last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however. That's a 20-30k different though. A bestower only gets up to like 15k-20k if you fill all the low slots with expanders. Gallente gets double the ore hold without sacrificing any speed. As far as ore hauling goes that's a massive difference. 100% more ore per trip. with expanders and rigs a bestower can hold over 32km3. the miasmos at lvl1 holds 46.2km3. that's an approximate 44% (let's say 50% if you count the cargo hold with expanders and rigs as well) difference, which, while still significant, is a far cry from double capacity. if you're using an indy to scoop jet cans full of ore then you only need 27.5km3, as that is the maximum capacity of a jet can. if you're planning on hauling the ore itself you're better off reprocessing it and moving the processed materials (which are much smaller) in a standard indy with expander mods and rigs or simply selling the ore locally in system.
Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 32	Posted - 2017.01.05 22:44:33 - [13] - Quote What if we would simply remove 2 of gallente's 3 special industrials and give them to amarr and caldari? Each race will have 3, and each is specialized differently. Or even put in the ammo hauler too, and redistribute them all. If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3546	Posted - 2017.01.05 22:56:33 - [14] - Quote Dior Ambraelle wrote: What if we would simply remove 2 of gallente's 3 special industrials and give them to amarr and caldari? Each race will have 3, and each is specialized differently. Or even put in the ammo hauler too, and redistribute them all. Why? Gallente used to have 5 industrial ships, the other races didn't. Lore wise it makes no sense to, and from a business prospective it makes no sense. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 27296	Posted - 2017.01.05 23:33:05 - [15] - Quote blargderp wrote: I personally would not want alphas scanning me down and stealing my salvage before I can get to it, then again they would get CONCORDed if they tried to tractor any of my wrecks and salvaging in a noctis without tractor beams is a pretty silly thing to do. You can only tractor wrecks that have been abandoned and wrecks that belong to you; IIRC the module won't even activate on somebody else's wreck. Danika Princip wrote: Back in my day, you'd bolt a bunch of salvagers onto a destroyer to clean up a mission. Why can an alpha not do this? Why do you need a noctis to salvage anything? I still do, a MWD destroyer does the job admirable; my Noctis hasn't undocked in years In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 3675	Posted - 2017.01.06 00:00:38 - [16] - Quote blargderp wrote: Matthias Ancaladron wrote: blargderp wrote: last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however. That's a 20-30k different though. A bestower only gets up to like 15k-20k if you fill all the low slots with expanders. Gallente gets double the ore hold without sacrificing any speed. As far as ore hauling goes that's a massive difference. 100% more ore per trip. with expanders and rigs a bestower can hold over 32km3. the miasmos at lvl1 holds 46.2km3. that's an approximate 44% (let's say 50% if you count the cargo hold with expanders and rigs as well) difference, which, while still significant, is a far cry from double capacity. if you're using an indy to scoop jet cans full of ore then you only need 27.5km3, as that is the maximum capacity of a jet can. if you're planning on hauling the ore itself you're better off reprocessing it and moving the processed materials (which are much smaller) in a standard indy with expander mods and rigs or simply selling the ore locally in system. The trouble is a miasmos can haul the most ore in a fast AND tanky fit. No other hauler can get even close to the power of a miasmos. Alphas are just another reason specialised haulers are ******. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Tordar Ohmiras The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2017.01.06 13:09:23 - [17] - Quote Lord Seriphim wrote: Gallente have the Miasmos Amarr, Caldari and Minmitar dont get one , with Alpha play can you please either add one to each race or create a Ore faction one that alphas can fly thats the same as the miasmos thankyou No. Alphas cost no money make a second char. Of a silly idea go omega. -1
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop Eve Radio Alliance 615	Posted - 2017.01.06 18:42:04 - [18] - Quote Matthias Ancaladron wrote: blargderp wrote: last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however. That's a 20-30k different though. A bestower only gets up to like 15k-20k if you fill all the low slots with expanders. Gallente gets double the ore hold without sacrificing any speed. As far as ore hauling goes that's a massive difference. 100% more ore per trip. Yes... but you lose lasers. /shrug. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3011	Posted - 2017.01.07 02:51:33 - [19] - Quote I have a better idea: don't let alphas fly the Miasmos, Kryos, or Epithal. What do they need the Epithal for, anyway? Edit: that would also mean don't let the Minmatar alphas fly the Hoarder. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2017.01.07 21:01:49 - [20] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: I have a better idea: don't let alphas fly the Miasmos, Kryos, or Epithal. What do they need the Epithal for, anyway? Edit: that would also mean don't let the Minmatar alphas fly the Hoarder. Make them all ORE industrials then and leave the alphas with the basic haulers? I wouldn't mind this change, and it would make sense lore-wise too - I think. If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2017.01.07 21:04:50 - [21] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Dior Ambraelle wrote: What if we would simply remove 2 of gallente's 3 special industrials and give them to amarr and caldari? Each race will have 3, and each is specialized differently. Or even put in the ammo hauler too, and redistribute them all. Why? Gallente used to have 5 industrial ships, the other races didn't. Lore wise it makes no sense to, and from a business prospective it makes no sense. So Gallente have 5, Minmatar have 3 and sucks to be Caldari or Amarr... why is this good exactly? If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3549	Posted - 2017.01.07 21:25:31 - [22] - Quote Dior Ambraelle wrote: Reaver Glitterstim wrote: I have a better idea: don't let alphas fly the Miasmos, Kryos, or Epithal. What do they need the Epithal for, anyway? Edit: that would also mean don't let the Minmatar alphas fly the Hoarder. Make them all ORE industrials then and leave the alphas with the basic haulers? I wouldn't mind this change, and it would make sense lore-wise too - I think. CCP Rise wrote: Some of us like this option a lot - unfortunately it would mean doing the same for all t2 haulers and all t1/t2 freighters, which would be A: A giant commitment in terms of art asset creation, B: A waste of assets that already exist and C: would probably be hated by a lot of players because of how much flavor and history it would remove from the game. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dornier Pfeil Citadel Defenders 26	Posted - 2017.01.07 22:00:03 - [23] - Quote Do Little wrote: The specialized haulers do give Gallente an advantage and I expect CCP to adjust the balance over the winter. The easiest solution would be to move Miasmos, Kyros, Epithal and Hoarder to Ore and give Alphas the ability to train Ore industrial level 1 - would also unlock Noctis and the salvaging profession. I don't think that would be a problem. If they did this it would be nice if they gave players the option of moving the SP for Gallente Industrial over to ORE Industrial. Until such a change I would have no reason to train ORE Ind. since I have no desire to fly any of those ships but I do have Gallente Ind. trained specifically so I can fly the Miasmos. Note: I didn't say turn the SP into general points that could end up anywhere. Just some one time use item that moves them from the Gallente skill to the ORE skill on pressing of an accept button. The item could also have a decline button. After that it vanishes. No ISK value. No transferability to another player. Just a nice way for CCP to say they understand this change screws over a subset of the players and they don't want to do that.
Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2017.01.07 23:11:13 - [24] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Some of us like this option a lot - unfortunately it would mean doing the same for all t2 haulers and all t1/t2 freighters, which would be A: A giant commitment in terms of art asset creation, B: A waste of assets that already exist and C: would probably be hated by a lot of players because of how much flavor and history it would remove from the game. Why/how does moving the 4 special haulers to ORE affect basically every other hauler exactly? T2 ships are the same for every faction, and I don't think freighters have anything to do with these 4. Also, - A: we only need 4, quite similar ships of their own class. It's a "big" work, not a "giant". I'm sure they have more important things to work on though. - B: the Hoarder is kind of unique, but the Gallente industrials are made like lego, we could even customize their look, we wouldn't really lose anything. - C: flavor and history, not to mention the industrialists who learned Gallente or Minmatar industrials to level 5 just to use these the most efficiently. Which they probably have done anyways to use the t2 transport ships. The only real difference is their ORE industrial skill, which is probably on level 3 only. If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3013	Posted - 2017.01.08 00:26:10 - [25] - Quote Dior Ambraelle wrote: Make them all ORE industrials then and leave the alphas with the basic haulers? I wouldn't mind this change, and it would make sense lore-wise too - I think. I'd like to see more actual racial industrials as well, such as: 1.) frigate-sized industrial 2.) battleship-sized industrial 3.) heavily armored industrial with combat capability I'd remove the specialized industrials entirely and add more actual industrial options. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5157	Posted - 2017.01.08 12:34:28 - [26] - Quote So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator? And Reaver, those are called t2 haulers. or frigates with cargo expanders. You're asking for things that already exist again.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3013	Posted - 2017.01.08 19:37:09 - [27] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator? And Reaver, those are called t2 haulers. or frigates with cargo expanders. You're asking for things that already exist again. Obviously if Epithal became an ORE ship, it would have its hull completely redesigned. Occator need not change. Blockade Runners are NOT frigates. They have cruiser align time, cruiser sig radius, cruiser hit points, cruiser max velocity, cruiser mass, industrial volume, enough powergrid for cruiser defenses, and their cargohold is a bit large for a frigate. They have tech 2 cruiser price. The only thing frigate-like about them is their slot layout. Orcas have a cruiser slot layout, but you wouldn't call them a cruiser, would you? I want an industrial that aligns twice as fast as a BR, has half the sig radius, a third of the hit points, twice the max velocity, a tenth the mass, half the packaged volume, a tenth of the powergrid, and a quarter of the cargohold, all for a fifth of the price. Or make it tech 1, take off the covert ops bonus, and put it under a mil. What's so unreasonable about that? Danika Princip wrote: You're asking for things that already exist again. I have been accused of this many times, but it has NEVER happened. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5158	Posted - 2017.01.08 19:48:29 - [28] - Quote If the occator need not change, how do I actually get another one, given that it is a gallente T2 variant of a ship that you don't want to be gallente anymore? You want an industrial that aligns in under two seconds, outruns literally everything that isn't an interceptor, carries over 1km3 and is, essentially, untouchable in a way that even a well flown blockade runner can't match. For under 25 mil. And is still cloaky. Or for under 1 mil without the cloak. What is NOT unreasonable about that? That makes travelceptors look balanced. And your BS industrial is an orca, and your tanky industrial is a DST. Please feel free to completely redefine the concept of tanky and battleship sized, they way you usually do.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3013	Posted - 2017.01.08 20:32:26 - [29] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: You want an industrial that aligns in under two seconds, outruns literally everything that isn't an interceptor, carries over 1km3 and is, essentially, untouchable in a way that even a well flown blockade runner can't match. For under 25 mil. And is still cloaky. Or for under 1 mil without the cloak. What is NOT unreasonable about that? That makes travelceptors look balanced. Sure, let's just spew out a bunch of subjective descriptions about the ship's absolute stats and completely ignore how it performs relative to existing ships. Frigates align in under 3 seconds when fit for agility, but they can carry over 1000m3 when fit for cargo. What I'm suggesting is merely specialized toward hauling, and thus would have a larger carrying capacity than a probe frigate. How does it have anything to do with travelceptors? Also, I gave approximate attributes. Who says it'll align in under 2 seconds? It depends on its exact attributes. But more importantly, why is that such a bad thing? It's not bubble immune, it's not cloaky, and it doesn't have a lot of hit points. Or are you trying to suggest that T1 frigates are overpowered? Danika Princip wrote: And your BS industrial is an orca, and your tanky industrial is a DST. Please feel free to completely redefine the concept of tanky and battleship sized, they way you usually do. Orca is a miniature capital ship, DST is a tech II battleship industrial. I want a tech 1 battleship industrial, a combat-oriented industrial, a frigate-sized industrial (both tech 1 and tech 2), and a light freighter that hauls significantly more than a DST and isn't specialized as a command ship. None of these exist and they would fill huge gaps in the ship lineup. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2017.01.08 21:40:07 - [30] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator? Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here. The suggestion is to move the Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos and Hoarder (do we even need this ship?) to the ORE industrials group. Every other industrial - the rest of the t1 haulers, the t2 haulers, the freighters and jump freighters - would remain as they are right now. This would also prevent alpha clones from using these ships. If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5158	Posted - 2017.01.08 21:45:41 - [31] - Quote Dior Ambraelle wrote: Danika Princip wrote: So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator? Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here. The suggestion is to move the Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos and Hoarder (do we even need this ship?) to the ORE industrials group. Every other industrial - the rest of the t1 haulers, the t2 haulers, the freighters and jump freighters - would remain as they are right now. This would also prevent alpha clones from using these ships. So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places?
Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2017.01.08 22:09:43 - [32] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Dior Ambraelle wrote: Danika Princip wrote: So, if you bump the Epithal over to ore, how the hell do I get my hands on another occator? Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here. The suggestion is to move the Miasmos, Epithal, Kryos and Hoarder (do we even need this ship?) to the ORE industrials group. Every other industrial - the rest of the t1 haulers, the t2 haulers, the freighters and jump freighters - would remain as they are right now. This would also prevent alpha clones from using these ships. So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places? So... Every other faction is using their "fast" hauler as the base of their DST, but Gallente decided to use the PI ship? Does anyone have any facepalms I can borrow? If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5158	Posted - 2017.01.08 22:15:02 - [33] - Quote Relic of the old lineup. Other races using their tanky hauler for the DST doesn't really mean a lot when two of them only have two hauler hulls.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3013	Posted - 2017.01.09 00:42:59 - [34] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: So ORE, which is a separate racial line, would contain the t1 version of a gallente t2 ship? Something which occurs in precisely zero other places? Obviously the T2 BPCs would come from researching Iteron V, which its model should be migrated to anyway, I think. But it doesn't have to have the same base model as its T1 counterpart. The Bustard uses the Badger Mk III model which isn't even used on a T1 ship. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kaia Lin Garemoko Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2017.02.23 18:52:17 - [35] - Quote Simply remove the Industrial racial restriction from Alpha accounts. Right now Alphas can use all races' Corvettes and Shuttles. Just add T1 Industrials to that list.
Cade Windstalker 875	Posted - 2017.02.23 19:00:30 - [36] - Quote blargderp wrote: last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however. As soon as you lift the racial restrictions though you can train a lot more combat-focused skills on a single character, and you either open up Pirate Faction stuff to Alphas or you have to line-item restrict it in a way that isn't intuitive just based on trainable skills. I'd agree that the hauler imbalance is an issue, but for once I'd actually prefer that CCP take the option that produces more work for them, because lifting racial restrictions would produce more issues down the line.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 3570	Posted - 2017.02.23 20:50:13 - [37] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: blargderp wrote: last I checked alpha clones only got their faction's indy up to level one, so the gap between the miasmos and any other alpha accessible indy with cargo expanders isn't all that huge. I agree that it does provide another advantage to gallente alphas though. none of this would be a problem if the racial restrictions were lifted however. As soon as you lift the racial restrictions though you can train a lot more combat-focused skills on a single character, and you either open up Pirate Faction stuff to Alphas or you have to line-item restrict it in a way that isn't intuitive just based on trainable skills. I'd agree that the hauler imbalance is an issue, but for once I'd actually prefer that CCP take the option that produces more work for them, because lifting racial restrictions would produce more issues down the line. The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3767	Posted - 2017.02.23 21:14:34 - [38] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access. Simple, elegant, fair. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cade Windstalker 882	Posted - 2017.02.23 21:18:03 - [39] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: The best suggestion I have read was to make the specialized haulers require racial industrial 2, barring them from all Alpha access. Simple, elegant, fair. I dunno, I think I'd personally go the other way, and let Alphas train any race's Industrial but nothing else to 1 so they can use anything. Does anyone have a particularly compelling reason Alphas shouldn't be able to use the specialized haulers? Especially the Ore one? By my estimation the only thing it does is allow them to risk more for the potential for greater rewards, since the specialist ships don't come close to matching Freighter volume and an Alpha clone can't fit too much in the way of tank.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3767	Posted - 2017.02.23 23:05:24 - [40] - Quote The specialised haulers can fit for tank, speed and evasion all at once without sacrificing capacity. Imo they are broken and remove choice. If i could I'd have them just deleted for everyone, not just alphas. I believe an alpha can still get 20k ehp out of them. Though id need to double check. But putting their requirements up isn't really to do with any of that. It's just a super easy fix to what i see as whining that wouldn't even exist if we had dealt with superfluous haulers properly. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Dior Ambraelle University of Caille Gallente Federation 46	Posted - 2017.02.24 00:04:15 - [41] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: As soon as you lift the racial restrictions though you can train a lot more combat-focused skills on a single character, and you either open up Pirate Faction stuff to Alphas or you have to line-item restrict it in a way that isn't intuitive just based on trainable skills. If you check the ship tree for omega symbols, you can see the pirate faction ships aren't blocked from a faction's side, but from the pod. I think CCP actually wanted to keep the cross-faction training as an option for alpha clones at some point, but not allowing them to fly pirate ships. And the game does the job for you, because you can code this: more than one faction skill required = omega only. If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it! But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3031	Posted - 2017.02.24 06:07:40 - [42] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: The specialised haulers can fit for tank, speed and evasion all at once without sacrificing capacity. Imo they are broken and remove choice. If i could I'd have them just deleted for everyone, not just alphas. This. Their specialized bay should have its base capacity greatly reduced, but that bay should be increased with cargo expanders. It's fine if they haul more than a generalized industrial. But it's not fine if they haul more while fitting more tank. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Cade Windstalker 896	Posted - 2017.02.24 16:01:36 - [43] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: The specialised haulers can fit for tank, speed and evasion all at once without sacrificing capacity. Imo they are broken and remove choice. If i could I'd have them just deleted for everyone, not just alphas. This. Their specialized bay should have its base capacity greatly reduced, but that bay should be increased with cargo expanders. It's fine if they haul more than a generalized industrial. But it's not fine if they haul more while fitting more tank. I think that's probably the point of the specialized haulers, because overall they don't fit anything close to a Freighter and the only things they can haul are PI goods, Ore, Minerals (but not both in the same hauler), and charges. All of these are pretty basic goods, I think CCP wanted to make it safer to haul moderate quantities of them without making it easier to haul 2b in random modules through High Sec.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3031	Posted - 2017.02.24 17:05:19 - [44] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: I think that's probably the point of the specialized haulers, because overall they don't fit anything close to a Freighter and the only things they can haul are PI goods, Ore, Minerals (but not both in the same hauler), and charges. All of these are pretty basic goods, I think CCP wanted to make it safer to haul moderate quantities of them without making it easier to haul 2b in random modules through High Sec. Likely so. It's a reasonable goal, one I would support. But they failed miserably at that. A Miasmos can hold over 100 mil worth of compressed ore. An Epithal can hold over 500 mil worth of P2 materials. A Kryos can hold over 2 bil worth of nocxium, much higher value if anyone actually tried to fill it with higher minerals. Not to mention a light industrial can haul over a trillion ISK worth of officer modules without even putting cargo expanders on. A solution sits right in front of them but they either are unaware of it or choose to ignore it: give cargo expansion a stacking penalty and buff the base cargoholds on industrials. It won't prevent people from putting stupidly expensive things in their cargohold but it will enable short range logistics to operate in a useful fashion beyond shipping ore, minerals, or PI materials. At that point they could leave the specialized industrials the way they are already. Truth be told, the specialized industrials aren't overpowered, it is the regular industrials that are underpowered. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Cade Windstalker 900	Posted - 2017.02.24 18:40:54 - [45] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Likely so. It's a reasonable goal, one I would support. But they failed miserably at that. A Miasmos can hold over 100 mil worth of compressed ore. An Epithal can hold over 500 mil worth of P2 materials. A Kryos can hold over 2 bil worth of nocxium, much higher value if anyone actually tried to fill it with higher minerals. Not to mention a light industrial can haul over a trillion ISK worth of officer modules without even putting cargo expanders on. A solution sits right in front of them but they either are unaware of it or choose to ignore it: give cargo expansion a stacking penalty and buff the base cargoholds on industrials. It won't prevent people from putting stupidly expensive things in their cargohold but it will enable short range logistics to operate in a useful fashion beyond shipping ore, minerals, or PI materials. At that point they could leave the specialized industrials the way they are already. Truth be told, the specialized industrials aren't overpowered, it is the regular industrials that are underpowered. I don't really agree here. The basic industrials offer flexibility and can haul the 99% of items that fall outside what the specialized industrials hold. Also those numbers you've provided are a bit skewed. Noxicium is on the more valuable per m3 end of minerals, and it's unlikely anyone would put anything like that much value in a single T1 hauler since if you really need to you can smart bomb it to death on a gate in High Sec. Same goes for using officer modules in a comparison. That's ridiculous and we both know it. The P2s and the compressed ore are more realistic, but I don't think either of those amounts is particularly absurd considering inflation. You can still easily fit more value in regular T2 modules in a regular fully tanked industrial with good skills. The problem with stacking penalizing cargo holds is two fold in my mind. First, it impacts things at every level of the game, not just T1 industrials. It also creates a situation where there's basically a max number of those that it's worthwhile to fit, as opposed to presently where you're making a trade off with every expander, instead of fitting between 2 and 4 and then fitting whatever else because more expanders is a bit pointless. That sort of setup would also end up massively benefitting shield-bonused haulers in terms of general utility, since they wouldn't need to sacrifice nearly as much cargo space compared to one with more low slots that's intended to fit an armor tank but would still be able to fit more cargo and a shield tank in the current system. Also limiting expanders like that would let the armor ships fit basically everything in the form of shields, nanos, and expanders. Overall it just seems like this would limit fitting variety and choice rather than do anything actually interesting with it, not a fan personally.
Jasmin Yeva Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2017.02.24 22:14:08 - [46] - Quote I think it would be fairer to redistribute gallente spacialized haulers to Amarr/Caldari. So each faction will have 3 T1 haulers: fast hauler, tanky hauler and specialized hauler. Lore-wise I think it should look like this: * Minmatar -- the warrior nation -- keep their ammo hauler. * Caldari -- the industrialist nation -- get mineral hauler. * Amarr -- the slaver nation -- gets ore hauler :) They have slaves to mine all this ore. * Gallente -- the trader nation -- gets PI hauler.
Cade Windstalker 903	Posted - 2017.02.24 22:43:25 - [47] - Quote Jasmin Yeva wrote: I think it would be fairer to redistribute gallente spacialized haulers to Amarr/Caldari. So each faction will have 3 T1 haulers: fast hauler, tanky hauler and specialized hauler. Lore-wise I think it should look like this: * Minmatar -- the warrior nation -- keep their ammo hauler. * Caldari -- the industrialist nation -- get mineral hauler. * Amarr -- the slaver nation -- gets ore hauler :) They have slaves to mine all this ore. * Gallente -- the trader nation -- gets PI hauler. The problem with this is that it would require new ship assets, or at least a retexture. It would also result in people being unable to fly ships they could fly previously, which is the bigger concern, since CCP has a general rule about not restricting people from flying things they could previously fly. Also, realistically, it wouldn't even do much for the imbalance in specialized haulers between races, since ammo and PI hauling aren't nearly as valuable for an Alpha account as Ore or Mineral hauling.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3768	Posted - 2017.02.24 22:51:33 - [48] - Quote Just wanted to mention, the reason we have these specialised haulers is because the playerbase whined when ccp rebalanced haulers and said they were redundant and not needed any more. If specialised haulers had a real purpose they WOULD have been spread across races. Instead they are just an after thought. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jasmin Yeva Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2017.02.24 23:18:09 - [49] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Just wanted to mention, the reason we have these specialised haulers is because the playerbase whined when ccp rebalanced haulers and said they were redundant and not needed any more. If specialised haulers had a real purpose they WOULD have been spread across races. Instead they are just an after thought. All specialized haulers, except Miasmos, because it can haul ore. And everybody want to haul a good amount of ore. Perhaps there is really a need for ORE ore hauler.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3031	Posted - 2017.02.25 02:20:21 - [50] - Quote Cade Windstalker wrote: That sort of setup would also end up massively benefitting shield-bonused haulers No, it would do the opposite. It is the current system which massively benefits shield haulers. CCP had a choice to make, either: 1.) give both types similar base cargo and inadvertently allow armor haulers to carry way more because more low slots, or 2.) give shield haulers higher base cargohold because they have fewer low slots CCP chose #2. That means shield and armor haulers get the same amount when fully fitted with expanders, but shield haulers fit more tank that way than armor haulers do. A stacking penalty would ALLOW armor haulers to fit tank. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3769	Posted - 2017.02.25 02:46:31 - [51] - Quote Jasmin Yeva wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Just wanted to mention, the reason we have these specialised haulers is because the playerbase whined when ccp rebalanced haulers and said they were redundant and not needed any more. If specialised haulers had a real purpose they WOULD have been spread across races. Instead they are just an after thought. All specialized haulers, except Miasmos, because it can haul ore. And everybody want to haul a good amount of ore. Perhaps there is really a need for ORE ore hauler. The normal haulers are perfectly good for hauling ore. It only doesn't seem so because the miasmos is so stupidly broken. I literally go round in one with warp stabs stealing from anyone who can mines (hulks and skiffs). I have even intercepted cans that are being tractored to orcas. When they bring pvp fit cruisers can they point me? No. Can they dent my tank in the few seconds before i warp? No. At least if i had to use a traditional hauler I'd have to make a choice between tank and speed or how much i can steal in one go. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs


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