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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.04.16 10:50:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Vireya
when did we lose the ability to actually fight player against player
I would daresay there really never was such days; Eve is not suited for one vs one combat.
Though if you want you can still find lot of fun small scale battles. Some tips:
1) Find 0.0 region with NPC stations (no big alliance blobs; lot of independent entities)
2) Have a small gang of your preferred size, with a scout. The idea is to ignore too big targets (==run from them), and try catch any viable targets.
3) Be willing to engage in battles where you are likely to have 50% chance for loss. That is, if the local corp has learnt that your 3 hacs will slaughter their fleet of 10 cruisers, they won't engage. Your enemy ain't stupid, even if you smack about numbers/cowardice. Yet if they feel (==have experience) they have chance to beat you, you'll have those fights.
Or in other words; if you know you would have very likely won some certain fight, your enemy did the right thing if they run from it. No matter how much you complain about 'number of ships'.
-Lasse
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Lacihtenu
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Posted - 2007.04.16 11:30:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Lacihtenu on 16/04/2007 11:28:11
Killboards are the downfall of many games tbh.
Companies made them available to players because..
a) It gave players another reason to hang around longer in-game and not cancel their account. This is why their are killboards, not because CCP actually cares where you stand, but because they know you care. It just inflates the ganking though and cowardice to keep stats in the green.
b) Alot of the "new age" MMO'ers seem overly concerned with knowing where they stand in the thick of things. Or should I say seem to like to have some kind of social status in the games they play ("E-Peen Stroking").
Sure, back when I played EQ / UO, their were those that had reps, but it was through merits of good they got them. From giving buffs all the time to players they didn't know, helping others out alot, etc. Now a days the only way people get a rep (For the most part)is by being jerkoffs to others. Killboards just add fuel to the fire for said jerkoffs to continue the trend.
EVE was nasty enough without the killboards. Now, it's turning the PvP into a joke. And it seems the younger crowd is getting what they want, because it seems with every new release, they get dumbed down more, and killboards added, which ruins the game IMO. And older games such as EVE here, get them added as a new way to keep subscribers interested. It just works out well for CCP because they promote foul play for the most part anyways.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
n0thing
Northern Intelligence
Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:04:00 -
[33]
Capital ships were needed in the game, whoever above said it was a mistake obiviosly want just some cheap 'shoot mah lazorz!' fights.
The only problem, that fleets need to have capital ships as its backbone, as its center, not the whole fleet is capital only. Its like a BS gangs still need their unique role, same as smaller scale combat needs it.
As for pvp, with removal of WCS from active pvp setups, seems like people do need to be more cautonious. But thats not a bad thing. In fact, it doesnt have any great influence on it.
I think that about the solo pvp thread is about, its easy:
The more advanced ship you in, the more time and expirience you need to chase down and kill your target. If youd be in say....Cyclone, youd have alot mroe stuff willing to engage you, while being in a Claymore automatically makes you 'the hunter'. In that case, you need to put your exprience into engaging maybe bigger ships, maybe against slightly worse odds like 2vs1, or if your still willing to kill everything, then you need to out-smart them if i can say it like this. Predict their direction, think where they might head, play it dumb and look like NPCer....theres tons of ways really, me being relatively new and I have no problems yet to find me active targets.
---
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murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Vireya
the title really says it all but i will elaborate a bit so you understand what i am on about!
when did we lose the ability to actually fight player against player? when did we reach the point where we say "omg a target i need someone to hold my hand"
i understand that things are migrating towards gangs and fleets but what happened to 1v1?
obviously as i am in the alliance everyone loves to hate (!) i do a fair amount of gate camping in gangs but i really prefer to hunt around systems looking for targets. simply because i bore easily!
i have lost ships to large groups before for instance trying to get through lowsec and not being careful enough (though i say gf to Dark Rising Shadow guys who got me!) or simply to having large ships jump through a gate and getting slapped about!
what i was getting at with the title was if you have an evenly matched pair of ships fighting its a foregone conclusion that you might call in a friend to tip the balance. those fights are great when you just don't know which way things will go.
my question is why, when you might only need one more ship, would you call in a fleet? are you only after killboard points? or are you genuinely scared about being on a level playing field?
i open the thread to your thoughts!
If you want a 'fair' or 'challenging' fight, create one yourself. Find targets that are bigger than you and attack them. Find targets that outnumber you and attack them.
Don't expect the other guy to make it a fair fight. I've been having fun killing mission runners. It's fun because I make it a challenge. I don't attack cruisers with my battleship. I attack battleships with my cruisers. I attack outnumbered. I attack outgunned. I attack targets when local is up around 24 and I'm the only guy in local in my corp/in my gang.
It's risky, it's dangerous, and it's FUN. Try it some time. I lose ships every once in a while because eventually I get attacked by half a dozen battleships and recons and carriers and things. But that's part of the risk involved.
It's been said before, but I'm still going to say it: you're in the wrong corp/alliance if you're looking for a 'fair' fight with no blobbing. I know that 90% of blobbing is just because you have fifty guys in alliance chat and all of them are bored, so when someone hears of a fight, they all come running, just to get a few shots in, not because they *have to* in order to win.
I don't confuse 'because we can' with 'because we have to in order to win' like 99% of the idiot carebears out there.
Because I said so...
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:36:00 -
[35]
If cowardice is NOT fighting on someone elses terms, then yes - I'm a coward.
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Jex Jast
Go for the booty
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Captain Blart
I think it's really simple : Because people want easy kills and these killboards just give them the illusion they re good at it . I'm sorry but even a gang of 30 monkeys ( the animals in this case ) can achieve the same thing.
Funny you should say that. I heard yesterday about some chimpanzees who had escaped a zoo and proceeded to hijack a vehicle. Don't know when it happened, though.
Quote:
PvP imply loosing stuff and a lot of people dont want this , so they just hide behind numbers and hope for the best.
Wimps. 
Quote:
I heard that a few years ago, the pvp in Eve was different but the way I see it now, it is rather a poor form. To me, Zerging is for people who dont like a challenge and gate camping just shows a bad implementation of the game ( In a world with "zones" like Eve, you should have differents ways to go to a place and not having 0,0 choke points like it is actually )
I actually feel that chokepoints are important to tactics. Think Thermopylae, that was a choke point.
Of course they were outnumbered whereas in Eve you tend to see a huge gank fleet of flashy red guys at a choke point, while you're in a frigate. And somehow they feel they can brag afterwards...
Don't worry I took a coughdrop I won't repeat myself.
-----
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FallenSeraphin
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Posted - 2007.04.16 12:57:00 -
[37]
i feel the same as a lot of you guys, and i have been thinking a lot on issues like blobing and ganking. what if they made a skill like the one that lets you target more targets each lvl of the skill, but in reverse...SO like start out with 6 people can taget you then end up with like only 2 people can target you at a time. would put a new spin on things. no more blobing, actual feel warfar AND the use of tactics. more pvp combat for you and your wing man because no more then 4 people can jump both of you. i know it has its flaws but i think it would work a lot better then the current system. Discuss.
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Neon Genesis
The Landed Gentry
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Posted - 2007.04.16 13:09:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Neon Genesis on 16/04/2007 13:06:03
Everyone always says this with conviction, but the truth is you can't just tell a few gang members to get lost because the sides arn't equal.
EDIT: ^ Above poster, just good god no.
_
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Dr Slice
OctoberSnow Corp
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Posted - 2007.04.16 14:05:00 -
[39]
If you're hell bent on some 1v1 pvp, try chess.
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EscapeArtist
Caldari
Deviance Inc
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Posted - 2007.04.16 14:11:00 -
[40]
I like to fight in a gang...
TBH it's nothing more than I don't like to fight fair and when you form up a 10 man GC, itĘs just sensible.
I like to fight smart. Why bring in a extra player to win, when you can fly in a whole fleet and complete stomp on your victim, and suffer very little damage/risk as a result.
Some call it cowardly, I call it calculated risk. 
------
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Idaeus
Gallente
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2007.04.16 14:16:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ararius
The Pirate/PvP corp I fly with just had a AF night, that involved a total of about 8 assault frigs, 2 frigs, a dictor, and 2 stealth bombers, and we atempted to take on....
I think it was 1 command ship, 3 battleships, 3 HACs, and a few stealth bombers
Needless to say we got wasted, but it was fun!
I wish I didn't have to work that night. It's good to know that fun was had though.
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cptblood
Exanimo Inc
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.04.16 14:25:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Vireya
the title really says it all but i will elaborate a bit so you understand what i am on about!
when did we lose the ability to actually fight player against player? when did we reach the point where we say "omg a target i need someone to hold my hand"
i understand that things are migrating towards gangs and fleets but what happened to 1v1?
obviously as i am in the alliance everyone loves to hate (!) i do a fair amount of gate camping in gangs but i really prefer to hunt around systems looking for targets. simply because i bore easily!
i have lost ships to large groups before for instance trying to get through lowsec and not being careful enough (though i say gf to Dark Rising Shadow guys who got me!) or simply to having large ships jump through a gate and getting slapped about!
what i was getting at with the title was if you have an evenly matched pair of ships fighting its a foregone conclusion that you might call in a friend to tip the balance. those fights are great when you just don't know which way things will go.
my question is why, when you might only need one more ship, would you call in a fleet? are you only after killboard points? or are you genuinely scared about being on a level playing field?
i open the thread to your thoughts!
It comes down to player mentality , people dont like to lose stuff, its that simple.Your alliance has two great corps in it like BYDI and Mental who would give an honest 1 v 1 or small group combat. But the few wars we have been in as soon as our guys start owning you in 1 v 1's and small group combat you blob like all the rest or run.
Tri on many occasions has been in fights where the enemy had like 20 pilots we have say maybe 15 and the enemy wont fight until they have atleast 30 or more.It's very annoying but then you always get to laugh when these groups like to refer to themselfs as pvp alliances.
As for decent 1 v 1's they are a thing of the past imo, normally end up me vs 3 or 4 others atleast.
To me the bigest part of pvping is taking risks fighting knowing you might lose , but at the same time you could win.
Keep up the good work privateers , empire is a better place becuase your there. kill a carebear for me.
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2007.04.16 15:37:00 -
[43]
some people actually make all of their isk by pvping and don't do missions or mine in 0.0 and those people actually want to kill you and buy expensive faction ships ;)
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Kha0s
Privateers
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Posted - 2007.04.16 15:46:00 -
[44]
I still manage to get quite a lot of one on one fights regularly, take a look at the kb and you'll see what I mean. I intentionally avoid getting into massive gangs and gatecamps most of the time. I still like hunting in a small group, but I never mind much fun travelling in a blob.
It's quite easy to get a duel if that's what you're looking for. A lot of the people I end up fighting with were minding their own business until I came along and done something to upset them enough to goad them into fighting me, but I get into quite a few consensual fights as well. If I see someone going around belts ratting, I normally drop a can beside them, and fire off a convo to see if they are up for some pewpew. I figure that most of them should be able to give a decent fight, as they should at least have some form of guns and a tank if they are killing npcs.
The thing that probably sways them most of the time is that I generally fly about in frigs, and the people I try to go for are in destroyers or cruisers. There are still some people who won't want to fight you regardless. I was talking to some guys for quite a while the other day, and they refused to fight me (caracal and rupture versus incursus ) as they thought I must have some sort of trick up my sleve.
One thing that was having an impact however was my bio. Apparently the kill tally was the thing that scared many of them away, as it gave them some idea of my capabilites. Hopefully with that gone, I should have an even easier time finding targets 
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Ovno ConSyquence
Amarr
Exiled.
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Posted - 2007.04.16 15:50:00 -
[45]
If you want 1v1 pvp go out roaming by yourself, hopefully other people also want 1v1 (certainly looks that way from this thread) and will do the same...
I've certainly found a fair few 1v1's that way.
But don't be suprissed if you encounter, gangs, blobs and fleets as lots of people enjoy this game in lots of different ways and have a right to defend there territories in the most effective way they can.
(which tends to be blobbing)
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Portios Smith
Beyond Divinity Inc
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.16 22:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Vireya
the title really says it all but i will elaborate a bit so you understand what i am on about!
when did we lose the ability to actually fight player against player? when did we reach the point where we say "omg a target i need someone to hold my hand"
i understand that things are migrating towards gangs and fleets but what happened to 1v1?
obviously as i am in the alliance everyone loves to hate (!) i do a fair amount of gate camping in gangs but i really prefer to hunt around systems looking for targets. simply because i bore easily!
i have lost ships to large groups before for instance trying to get through lowsec and not being careful enough (though i say gf to Dark Rising Shadow guys who got me!) or simply to having large ships jump through a gate and getting slapped about!
what i was getting at with the title was if you have an evenly matched pair of ships fighting its a foregone conclusion that you might call in a friend to tip the balance. those fights are great when you just don't know which way things will go.
my question is why, when you might only need one more ship, would you call in a fleet? are you only after killboard points? or are you genuinely scared about being on a level playing field?
i open the thread to your thoughts!
If you want a 'fair' or 'challenging' fight, create one yourself. Find targets that are bigger than you and attack them. Find targets that outnumber you and attack them.
Don't expect the other guy to make it a fair fight. I've been having fun killing mission runners. It's fun because I make it a challenge. I don't attack cruisers with my battleship. I attack battleships with my cruisers. I attack outnumbered. I attack outgunned. I attack targets when local is up around 24 and I'm the only guy in local in my corp/in my gang.
It's risky, it's dangerous, and it's FUN. Try it some time. I lose ships every once in a while because eventually I get attacked by half a dozen battleships and recons and carriers and things. But that's part of the risk involved.
It's been said before, but I'm still going to say it: you're in the wrong corp/alliance if you're looking for a 'fair' fight with no blobbing. I know that 90% of blobbing is just because you have fifty guys in alliance chat and all of them are bored, so when someone hears of a fight, they all come running, just to get a few shots in, not because they *have to* in order to win.
I don't confuse 'because we can' with 'because we have to in order to win' like 99% of the idiot carebears out there.
I disagree, I have only been in Privateers for little over a week and I've enjoyed several 1v1s and 1v2s(me being the lone pilot).
If you find a good fight just STFU and go for it. I am a greedy SOB, don't like to share tha lewt. I don't type in alliance 
Oh and one more thing, this is MY opinion. I speek only for myself
I want the truth
You can't handle the truth - Ductoris |
Mistress Suffering
Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2007.04.16 23:40:00 -
[47]
You will not get the kinds of fights you are looking for in Privateers. Relocate. Anyone fighting Privateers understands that Privs are perfectly willing to blob to h*ll and back. Claim otherwise all you want, but it doesn't take much looking to find 12-20 man Privateers gangs these days, so anyone fighting you must assume that this potential exists at all times.
Instead, join a smaller corp that wardecs similar sized and skilled corps. Want good fights? Then fight opponents that are of roughly even potential. If your corp can go toe to toe with a small alliance, then fight those. If you can only match strength with relatively new mid-sized corps, then those should be your targets.
The risk of course, is that people like to win, and thus frequently set themselves targets that are too easy. Easy targets won't want to fight. Instead, you need targets that are strong enough to occasionally outmatch you, to occasionally be the guys sitting outside when you don't have enough strength to sally out and fight, and to occasionally win.
When you're ready for that, and willing to accept wardecs and fights at that level, then you'll get the "real PVP" that you're talking about. Until then, you may as well wallow in the lopsidedness of Privateers where you have parked yourself instead.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Sanctuary
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Posted - 2007.04.17 00:06:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Jimer Lins on 17/04/2007 00:02:11
The highsec wars and the lowsec piracy created the mentality of "gang up or die", which frankly has been encouraged by those who created the situation. In every thread someone is accused of being a carebear whiner, they're told to "get some friends" or "gang up and fight back", or variations on such themes.
I find it hard to fathom that anyone would be surprised at the result. Some people don't like to fight. Some people do. More of both prefer to win. It's that simple.
Sanctions, embargoes and blockades- discuss PVP with ISK! |
diabolic clone
Amarr
Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.17 01:13:00 -
[49]
Maybe it's cause I haven't played for a year yet, but some of the stuff in this thread is way over my head.
What is this 1v1 people speak of?
Also this flinging around of calling people cowards for blobbing, most the time people just want to get out and have something to shoot at.
Besides it is stupid and suicidal to go out solo (even though I do it when I'm bored) unless you really know the region you are running around in or 60% of the time you will get trapped and blobbed. (more like 90% in my case since I get stupid doing something I think is ballsy) 
there's no reward to flying around by yourself unless you have pride. blob = kill mails + loot.
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WYLEE C0Y0TE
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.04.17 01:59:00 -
[50]
Strength in numbers. Safety in numbers. Tried and (mostly) true tactic that's been around for as long as fighting has. Never gonna change either.
Are blobs fun? No. Can you prevent them? Yes, to a degree, by not putting all your ISKies into one ship, and instead flying around in decent throw away setups. The more people that do this, the larger our intestinal fortitude becomes.
When you got next to nothing (relatively speaking) to lose, who cares what the odds are?
Originally by: Leikeze Mrotserif
If it's personal, it's because of you.
My Killboard |
Exid Rihal
Gallente
The Taining corp
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.04.17 02:02:00 -
[51]
:| There's real PvP. Yeh I do fly with KOS and what-not in fleet battles, but after that when everyones asleep/the international transition period, there's always lots of BOB/neutrals roamin round (they could say the same for KOS) to fight PvP.
Just go merc'ing for a while, or go 'YARRing'. If you can't find an evened out PvP player in 0.0, then your a hopeless eve player :P
Not everyone comes in with reinforcements. You see more then one enemy in local, most likely they arn't going to PvP. As I've said in other posts, you gotta pick your battles. Yes some people don't like being out gunned, or feel the need to get their buddies to warp in for a quick pop, not all, only a fairly small percentage.
There are exceptions, where the region you are in, is owned by an alliance that is on a CTA. Then they will purposely get their friends involved.
If you want PvP I'd recommend you do some research on some 0.0 regions and scope em out to find victims. PvP doesn't come to you, you have to go to it with guns ready :D
=Exid Rihal=
The Taining Corp Wants YOU |
Cinders Khalaris
The Movement
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Posted - 2007.04.17 05:47:00 -
[52]
I would do alot more 1v1's if I wasnt flying amarrcrap.
It's a mmo, what do you expect? People like to do **** together. There are so many other good games(non-mmo) with better 1vs1, but that's just my opinion.
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Lygos
Amarr
Insane Asylum
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Posted - 2007.04.17 06:22:00 -
[53]
My take on the situation is purely economic.
#1 - The current crop of mercenaries/pvpers/pirates what have you do not explicitely need to be taking down targets to keep the isk flowing.
#2 - They do not lose anything by underperforming.
#3 - Most individuals expect others to think as they do, thus they rationalize not against mechanics, but against what they predict other people's responses will be to mechanics.
Ergo, a mechanics change will probably not alter player behavior. What needs to be introduced is an expense cost of operating any ship. Operating an elite weapon of war should have ungodly expenses to manage. Not utilizing it should be unthinkable.
We cannot focus on blobbing as being solely undesirable. There will always be a desire for a less skilled or less elite group to use waves of innexpensive assaults to inflict damage against expensive, high-skill setups for instance. It is merely a tactic, and must simply be made to seem optional. Any powerful tactic must be made "expensive."
FCs having idle combat pilots should have the financial oversight board hopping mad. Pilots need to be thinking about numero uno more, and contributing less of their time for free except in the expectation of loot.
A pvper should be focused on the loot. Any central command needs to be focused on deploying FCs where they will acquire or protect the most valuable assets with the most acceptable margin of losses.
You will never achieve this scenario in a grinder mmo. This can only come about where profit, power and wealth comes through defense against the attrition of assets, and only where offense and counteroffense must be distributed.
Conclusion: You're f#$%^&.
---
Articio > Well, at least I don't have to grind back security status.
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ry ry
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Posted - 2007.04.17 09:17:00 -
[54]
on the other hand, you could just accept that not every fight is ever going to be even.
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Jesse Cooper
Gallente
Any Last Words
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Posted - 2007.04.17 10:39:00 -
[55]
Be in a real life fight for a minute and try to remember whether or not you fought fairly or the other guy fought fairly.
This is standard human operating at it's finest. Ganking is in the genetic code. Blobbing is how the world works. What we pilots fight on a day to day basis are small scale wars, and wars are won by out numbering, out flanking, and pulling resources out from under the enemy. The less resources you require, the better you operate. I am in a small, five man corp. It's pretty difficult for us to gank anyone, but when we get ganked, we don't *****. We understand it's a cowardly tactic, and that's why we don't do it. Are we going to beg for 1 v 1? No. We'll take it where we can get it, and we're still winning the wars we fight.
Get over it.
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.04.18 01:43:00 -
[56]
No offense here Vireya, but you don't get 1v1 because you're afraid to come get it. =) I'll see you there all day long. Stop station camping for a bit and come fight me. :)
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WYLEE C0Y0TE
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.04.18 02:22:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
No offense here Vireya, but you don't get 1v1 because you're afraid to come get it. =) I'll see you there all day long. Stop station camping for a bit and come fight me. :)
No offense there Curzon, but why don't you finally explain that last rule of yours in your little competition? Clarifications been asked a couple of times, yet you've never responded...
Originally by: Leikeze Mrotserif
If it's personal, it's because of you.
My Killboard |
Mi Lai
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.04.18 04:53:00 -
[58]
Find a corp you love to hate and vice versa.
I had plenty of smallish gang fights with other pirates in my time, often fairly balanced. BEES, HOT, The Movement, etc.
As for people 'blobbing' it has little to do with game mechanics. It's just human nature to band together. Even primitive tribes like the Yanomamo, Maring, Maoris, etc. tended to bring the whole gang to the fight. An open 'chivalrous' fight is more an exception then rule in the history of combat.
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Lux Simian
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Posted - 2007.04.18 15:44:00 -
[59]
1v1 PVP is not necessarily any more balanced than gang fights, skill, experience and ship type make the difference.
My first PvP experience involved a HAC of a 2.5 year old player against a Vexor and a newbie in a Battlercruiser - We had about a years xp between us.
We basically took off his shields, and were totally pwned. When the corp nailed him about an hour later they took 200m Isk in kit off him (Faction, Tech 2 all round).
So why would I consider 1-on-1 to be any fairer than hunting in a gang. The idea is to kill your opponant before he kills you, and over the last year the experience has been that bringing additional ships to bear is the best protection against pirates (or small gang pirates) 
Of course thats led to Pirate escalation of numbers.
Evolution my dear Watson, is the cause. My generation learned to deal with the pirate threat by ganging....
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empathic defence
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Posted - 2007.04.18 16:15:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Actually, do away with killmails, problem solved..
Here, here!
Who cares about online stats of who's killed who  . Eve use to be about playing the game, not seeing who is the best of the day/week etc.
Why not have an eve online CCP killboard for same ship vs same ship from weekly/monthly competitions? PVP's get online stats and everyone gets a 1 v 1, everyone wins.
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