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Local & Null: Why hasn't this been accomplished?

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Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 271	Posted - 2011.12.26 15:01:00 - [1] - Quote I'm kind of curious about CCP's efforts on this front. We've been told it will be done and that it would include intelligence gathering features to be implemented. Yet, w-space is a working model of nolocal that provides a rich pvp environment. IMO, there is no reason this should have been done already except that CCP is developing features which effectively defeats the nolocal concept. IDK. W-space is a working environment with nolocal so when can we expect null to have no local and how does CCP conceptualize "intelligence gathering" features that "rewards" those who develop such information networks? We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!
Seleia O'Sinnor Arklight Project Fade 2 Black 104	Posted - 2011.12.26 15:07:00 - [2] - Quote Because bots would have a hard time to survive without local. No really, I'd like to see local removed(put into delayed mode) for all k-space. There's far too much free intel in this game. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing.
Desert Ice78 Gryphon River Industries Bloodbound. 47	Posted - 2011.12.26 15:11:00 - [3] - Quote Because no one wants this except a few whiney-fail-wanna-be-pvpers who endlessly complain that CCP makes Eve to easy while ignoring that which they are whining for is in itself Eve on easy mode. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 791	Posted - 2011.12.26 15:11:00 - [4] - Quote With Supers, hot drops and all that I don't think simply removing local would work ideally... but something more "halfway" towards a no-local type of environment. (Yes, I'm biased towards one particular idea...) Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 791	Posted - 2011.12.26 15:12:00 - [5] - Quote Desert Ice78 wrote: Because no one wants this except a few whiney-fail-wanna-be-pvpers who endlessly complain that CCP makes Eve to easy while ignoring that which they are whining for is in itself Eve on easy mode. By the way Ice, the ones that are whining the most are the ones that can see a cloaked vessel in local so they shut down null sec for a week while they complain on the forums. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Spurty D00M. Northern Coalition. 72	Posted - 2011.12.26 15:13:00 - [6] - Quote Worm holes have what you want. Bai! ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.
Tanjo Janau Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2011.12.26 15:17:00 - [7] - Quote Mr Kidd wrote: I'm kind of curious about CCP's efforts on this front. We've been told it will be done and that it would include intelligence gathering features to be implemented. Yet, w-space is a working model of nolocal that provides a rich pvp environment. IMO, there is no reason this should have been done already except that CCP is developing features which effectively defeats the nolocal concept. IDK. W-space is a working environment with nolocal so when can we expect null to have no local and how does CCP conceptualize "intelligence gathering" features that "rewards" those who develop such information networks? I have thought of a number of potentially cool options that could be done with local. I think a "proximity" local system could be very cool. For example in High/low you would be detected in local whenever in range of a concord enabled device (stations, gates, etc). Once out of range of these devices you would disappear from local. CCP could effectively keep local in HS by having some sort of "beacon" that covers an entire system. In null, this could be achieved by SOV modules that detect ships. This could be used to basically implement a warning net of sensors. This also fits with the concept of W-Space, since no gates exist to detect anything. Additionally IMO it seems silly that cloaked ships show up in local. It kind of defeats the purpose of being covert ops when your presence is announced in local. Additionally Black ops would become way more useful if you could actually sneak a force into enemy territory without detection. Anyhow, just some quick random thoughts that I think would make the game cooler.
Marlona Sky Caldari Provisions Caldari State 210	Posted - 2011.12.26 15:34:00 - [8] - Quote Almost all of the CSM is null power block holders. Removing their instant intel tool would be a great threat to them. So of course they are most likely lying to CCP saying that removing local is a bad idea. Bad for their nap trains and bots... Flight of a Thousand Rifters: A Player Event
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 341	Posted - 2011.12.26 18:40:00 - [9] - Quote Last I checked, the idea of a SOV-dependent intel gathering tool was shut down because it would of course be something which benefited the local system owner (and their allies/friends).
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx 145	Posted - 2011.12.26 18:51:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Greyscale's plan was to nerf all Local, 0.0 and empire, and replace it with some kind of a new intel tool. Perhaps CCP Unifex, the new EVE online Senior Producer, could shed some light on what's going on with this.
Velicitia Open Designs 245	Posted - 2011.12.26 18:54:00 - [11] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Last I checked, the idea of a SOV-dependent intel gathering tool was shut down because it would of course be something which benefited the local system owner (and their allies/friends). Not entirely sure this is a bad thing, especially if you need to be "close" to the beacons to show up on local. Think of it this way -- blops fleets show up sneaky like in 3-4 border systems, start going to town on the cyno jammers. Defenders won't know which system is going to get the caps showing up, so they have to split up a little to deal with the blops guys before they can incap a jammer and allow your fleet to show up.
Solstice Project Cult of Personality 307	Posted - 2011.12.26 19:08:00 - [12] - Quote Removing local ... hm ... sad idea. People want to remove one of the most important communications tools, but give no clue about what should replace it for all those who enjoy talking to others just so. In this thread here, it seems i'm the only one actually talking to people in local and enjoying it ... ... and nobody seems to care about the fact that people who have never met before start to talk in local, just by coincidence. Removing local would make the game more empty, even if it's only a perceived emptiness. (counts anyway) It's no counter-argument to say "go find a corp", because that's something completely different. I know that many people don't bother talking in local for reasons i don't understand/don't care about, but there are plenty who love doing it in highsec, lowsec and pointless err nullsec. That said, the idea of "local locals" around/in stations (WiS?) would mitigate the loss a bit, although that would only be a sad excuse of a local chat then... Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire
Valei Khurelem House Khurelem 28	Posted - 2011.12.26 20:01:00 - [13] - Quote Seleia O'Sinnor wrote: Because bots would have a hard time to survive without local. No really, I'd like to see local removed(put into delayed mode) for all k-space. There's far too much free intel in this game. There is, we just need to get CCP to ignore all the 0.0 alliances in CSM who will cry about it because they won't be able to gank anyone easily anymore.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 163	Posted - 2011.12.26 21:08:00 - [14] - Quote Removing local works in w-space due to other aspects of w-space that make it feasible for smaller entities to live in WHs despite the lack of local, such as mass limitations, non-static routes and permanent cynojam. These features of w-space favor the defender to the point where it discourages large-scale alliances from simply rolling in and taking vast swaths of the space for themselves (not to suggest that sov 0.0 doesn't have defensive advantages either). There's the additional incentive of high gross profit to cover for the costs in defending/exploiting these systems. Without these defensive advantages that w-space confers, removing local disincentivizes 'smallholding' and low-level null industry even moreso. Personally I believe local should be replaced with a more active form of intelligence gathering that goes beyond mashing the 'SCAN' button every 5 seconds. Something like a HUD overlay that displays warp tunnels, gate fire, cynos and other spatial distortions occurring around the pilot. Local could still be updated automatically, but only for those with blue standings.
Jaigar Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Transmission Lost 16	Posted - 2011.12.26 22:29:00 - [15] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: With Supers, hot drops and all that I don't think simply removing local would work ideally... but something more "halfway" towards a no-local type of environment. (Yes, I'm biased towards one particular idea...) This, and removing local from null would be the biggest game changer ever in the history of EVE. They cannot do this overnight, and it needs a lot of testing and retesting and then some more testing. Also there needs to be a transition period for people to adjust.. Honestly I don't expect the local changes to null sec to occur til next winter.
Danika Princip Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team 117	Posted - 2011.12.26 23:07:00 - [16] - Quote Valei Khurelem wrote: Seleia O'Sinnor wrote: Because bots would have a hard time to survive without local. No really, I'd like to see local removed(put into delayed mode) for all k-space. There's far too much free intel in this game. There is, we just need to get CCP to ignore all the 0.0 alliances in CSM who will cry about it because they won't be able to gank anyone easily anymore. Yes. What we need to do is make sweeping changes to something, while totally ignoring the people who actually know about said thing! brilliant! What are you, a politician?
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 273	Posted - 2011.12.26 23:33:00 - [17] - Quote Solstice Project wrote: Removing local ... hm ... sad idea. People want to remove one of the most important communications tools, but give no clue about what should replace it for all those who enjoy talking to others just so. In this thread here, it seems i'm the only one actually talking to people in local and enjoying it ... ... and nobody seems to care about the fact that people who have never met before start to talk in local, just by coincidence. Removing local would make the game more empty, even if it's only a perceived emptiness. (counts anyway) It's no counter-argument to say "go find a corp", because that's something completely different. I know that many people don't bother talking in local for reasons i don't understand/don't care about, but there are plenty who love doing it in highsec, lowsec and pointless err nullsec. That said, the idea of "local locals" around/in stations (WiS?) would mitigate the loss a bit, although that would only be a sad excuse of a local chat then... No local doesn't mean no communication. Anyone is welcome to speak in local and see who is willing to respond. As is now, most people don't respond in null local anyway, so I'm not seeing any lost comms here. Most of null is pretty empty. You can't get emptier than 0 people in local. Besides, Dscan is adequate to determine if there are people in system. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 343	Posted - 2011.12.26 23:44:00 - [18] - Quote Valei Khurelem wrote: There is, we just need to get CCP to ignore all the 0.0 alliances in CSM who will cry about it because they won't be able to gank anyone easily anymore. Don't forget, all 0.0 alliances who have SOV and are on the CSM do nothing but bot and gank people. It's the sole reason we took SOV. Jaigar wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: With Supers, hot drops and all that I don't think simply removing local would work ideally... but something more "halfway" towards a no-local type of environment. (Yes, I'm biased towards one particular idea...) This, and removing local from null would be the biggest game changer ever in the history of EVE. They cannot do this overnight, and it needs a lot of testing and retesting and then some more testing. Also there needs to be a transition period for people to adjust.. Honestly I don't expect the local changes to null sec to occur til next winter. Honestly, it would be absolutely hilarious if they actually did implement Ingvar's idea without any other changes, just to see how right I am with all my predictions. Personally I predict that if we're seeing any changes, it'll be some sort of shootable module which allows system owners to select who gets access to the information of who's in system.
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 273	Posted - 2011.12.26 23:47:00 - [19] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Personally I predict that if we're seeing any changes, it'll be some sort of shootable module which allows system owners to select who gets access to the information of who's in system. If that's how it's to play out than I don't see any reason to remove local. I'm a big believer in balance. Removing local and making it accessible only to inhabitants actually makes it safer for the owners since noone else can "know" who is in system. As you've envisioned that change it's a huge imbalance. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!
Seleia O'Sinnor Arklight Project Fade 2 Black 107	Posted - 2011.12.26 23:49:00 - [20] - Quote I wonder why CCP doesn't try it for a week or two: Put every system in Eve into delayed local mode. The code is there, look at w-space, so it has to be merely a configuration thing. This topic is still warm and has been disputed over for ...years? Why don't they just see how it works? Announce it, or use some funny lore background like Sansha Incursions, or a Jove intervention which breaks comms, so they can test how we, the players adapt to it and give feedback on the forums. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing.
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 273	Posted - 2011.12.26 23:53:00 - [21] - Quote It could be implemented at a test in a specific region(s). We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 343	Posted - 2011.12.27 00:00:00 - [22] - Quote Mr Kidd wrote: Lord Zim wrote: Personally I predict that if we're seeing any changes, it'll be some sort of shootable module which allows system owners to select who gets access to the information of who's in system. If that's how it's to play out than I don't see any reason to remove local. I'm a big believer in balance. Removing local and making it accessible only to inhabitants actually makes it safer for the owners since noone else can "know" who is in system. As you've envisioned that change it's a huge imbalance. Personally I see no real reason to make any changes at all, but I suspect that if CCP were to do any changes, it'd be something which makes sense, i.e. make local disappear until someone puts up a intelligence module, effectively giving inhabitants/owners/friends a "defenders' privilege" which could be easily circumvented by shooting up the module, making everyone "equally" blind again. But as said, I see no real reason to fiddle with it. The risk/reward balance is a precarious thing, and personally I'd rather allure more people out into nullsec, than drive them out.
Valei Khurelem House Khurelem 29	Posted - 2011.12.27 03:09:00 - [23] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Valei Khurelem wrote: Seleia O'Sinnor wrote: Because bots would have a hard time to survive without local. No really, I'd like to see local removed(put into delayed mode) for all k-space. There's far too much free intel in this game. There is, we just need to get CCP to ignore all the 0.0 alliances in CSM who will cry about it because they won't be able to gank anyone easily anymore. Yes. What we need to do is make sweeping changes to something, while totally ignoring the people who actually know about said thing! brilliant! What are you, a politician? The reason they don't want local changed is precisely because they know exactly how the game mechanic works, they know if it is removed then they will be put a disadvantage, that is also why you see them crying about people staying in high security space away from them and their gank fleets, it disadvantages them. Another thing I find hilarious is people pointing out blatant exploits and them saying to shut up and live with it as if they're somehow entitled to abuse the crap out of the game unfairly and everyone else deserves to suffer, that's the kind of thing that ends up killing a player base more than micro-transactions. It's hardly a sweeping change either, it makes no difference to ship or skill stats and considering it will make 0.0 alliances think more carefully about how they operate in systems they own and about gatecamping then that's only a good thing.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 163	Posted - 2011.12.27 03:45:00 - [24] - Quote Mr Kidd wrote: It could be implemented at a test in a specific region(s). just make some w-space 'unstable wormholes' perma-stable. Perfect simulator.
Jaigar Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Transmission Lost 16	Posted - 2011.12.27 05:01:00 - [25] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Mr Kidd wrote: It could be implemented at a test in a specific region(s). just make some w-space 'unstable wormholes' perma-stable. Perfect simulator. Theres too many things that make W-Space drasticly different from K-Space. The first and major one is the importance of your pod escaping. If someone is invading your system and you get podded, there no virtually no way you can get back into your system to defend it; podding is incredibly important in W-Space because of this. Another issue is contending with mass limits. Some fleets will sit heavy so they can control the hole and force a fight or force others on the other side to flee. They need an alternate intel system to local is all; hell, they further nerfed W-Space intel and most don't even care. The mentality in W-Space is completely different and both sides need to understand that.
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 273	Posted - 2011.12.27 12:23:00 - [26] - Quote Jaigar wrote: They need an alternate intel system to local is all; hell, they further nerfed W-Space intel and most don't even care. The mentality in W-Space is completely different and both sides need to understand that. Before I went to w-space to live I some times went into nullsec to see if I could find some PVP to learn from. What I learned was, unless you want to be blobbed then don't go there on your own. It's local that gives your presence away. And while it works for both the foreign player and the inhabitants, the inhabitants have the upper hand as in most cases they're capable of camping all your exits out of the system and even most celestials which I've witnessed first hand. I've also been there is recent times watching local go from +5 to 1 upon my arrival. I guess my motivation for asking about the null local change is to see where it stands on the planning and implementation white board at CCP, that I would love to hunt there. But local just gives any advantage that a lone player, a gang or even a large fleet has unless the large fleet out numbers the local fleet. I think you null guys would have more fun without local and rely less on blob tactics. I mean, the blob will always have its place. It would just lose some of its effectiveness in certain situations. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 343	Posted - 2011.12.27 12:55:00 - [27] - Quote The problem with changing local is, the guys in null who PVP won't care much as they're going to/from a system with a specific activity in mind, and they're prepared for PVP. What the change would affect the most, however, is those who aren't in space in null to PVP, but to make isk for whatever reason (pay for more PVP ships, or just to hoard ISK).
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 795	Posted - 2011.12.27 13:55:00 - [28] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: The problem with changing local is, the guys in null who PVP won't care much as they're going to/from a system with a specific activity in mind, and they're prepared for PVP. What the change would affect the most, however, is those who aren't in space in null to PVP, but to make isk for whatever reason (pay for more PVP ships, or just to hoard ISK). There should be an inherent risk with regards to null space as there is in all Eve, should there not? Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 343	Posted - 2011.12.27 14:12:00 - [29] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: There should be an inherent risk with regards to null space as there is in all Eve, should there not? So you mean I can just park any ship anywhere in a system, and it'll never get ganked? And here I thought we had to be vigilant to avoid ganks out in nullsec. Shucks, I've been misled.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 795	Posted - 2011.12.27 14:20:00 - [30] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: There should be an inherent risk with regards to null space as there is in all Eve, should there not? So you mean I can just park any ship anywhere in a system, and it'll never get ganked? And here I thought we had to be vigilant to avoid ganks out in nullsec. Shucks, I've been misled. Nice dodge. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

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