|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
   |
Posted - 2008.02.04 00:01:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sendraks on 04/02/2008 00:05:28
I've yet to see a compelling argument as to why the wreck system should be changed and none have been put forward in this thread.
I could see a basis for making a change if it wasn't so easy to avoid getting salvagers in your mission DS. As it stands, avoiding salvagers just requires a modicum of effort and common sense. I've yet to find anyone in my mission DS who shouldn't be there.
From this it is easy to deduce that the people who are asking for this change are a) lazy and b) bereft of common sense.*
Salvaging is fine. No changes are necessary. Use your brain and you'll find there is no reason to complain.
*Lack of common sense also evidenced by the people whining about salvagers having no understanding of "risk vs reward."
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 14:51:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Sendraks on 04/02/2008 14:51:25
 Originally by: Righteous Deeds
Too funny. Even most miners are dealing with belt rats, but here we have a bunch of folks that insist it's whining to want to prevent salvagers from getting something for nothing. 
Hmm, lets see. Time spent probing people down. Cost of probes. Probability of getting anything decent from wrecks.
Doesn't sound like something for nothing to me. Of course, idiots who run missions in certain systems make it a lot easier for people to find their mission DS's. If people weren't so lazy and stupid, there wouldn't be these whines in the first place.
Reality is that mission runners get something for nothing. It takes far less effort to run a mission (no effort at all to get a mission in the first place) than it does to probe someone down.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
Do the right thing, ask for the salvage or make your own wrecks.
This certainly would be the "right" or at least the "polite" thing to do. But that doesn't mean it should be the only option.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
Either that or support a rule change that makes you have to risk fighting for what you take from someone else's time and effort. Freebees are weak, and mission-runners shouldn't have to "adapt" to stupid rules. How about salvagers "adapt" to a new system since they're the ones putting the least effort into the existing process?
Why should salvagers have to adapt and not mission runners? Mission runners arguably get more freebies than salvagers (free rats, free wrecks). You don't have to spend time getting a mission to do, you just ask and off you go. Missions are an easy, nigh on risk free enterprise in hi-sec. Why should mission runners get everything for free and the salvager, who spends time and money finding a mission DS, get nothing at all.
I am a regular mission runner. I have my faction BS with various trimmings. I know how "hard" missions are. I am well aware that I am getting a lot of ISK for very little effort and risk on my part. However, I don't make it easy for people to come "visit" my mission DS's by running missions in a system where salvagers operate. It simply isn't worth the time or the effort for a salvager to operate in the systems where I am.
I adapted. I win.
I do not see why those lazy mission runners who can't be bothered to think and adapt, should continue to get something for nothing. My effort (small) has been rewarded. Why should their zero effort yield the same results?
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
I'm adding "whining" and "adapt" to the list of overused forum words preferred by those without a logical argument.
Which helps you blend in with all the other non-sensical, illogical arguments here. You're another example of this sad part of the community that doesn't understand risk vs reward.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 17:48:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Sigul Siento
And I would support making wrecks scannable, with some sort of limitation like a timer or only once the missioner has left the area. This would be beneficial for everyone as the salvagers could focus on the abandoned wrecks and get more loot, and less risk for the missioneers to be visited "in action".
If what you're saying is, make wrecks scannable outside of a deadspace, then it might work. It shouldn't be something that is any easier to do than scanning out a mission DS though, so effectively it just gives a salvager more time/options. By maintaining the parity with scanning of mission DS, this means that it won't be any easier/harder to find wrecks in busy systems (indeed, it is more likely that the salvagers will be going after wrecks that the mission runner didn't care about) and will make no odds to those of us who made the effort to move into quieter space.
I don't see that there is any need for any sort of flagging system (for cans or wrecks). As a hi-sec mission runner, the trade off for being able to run missions in almost complete saftey is not being able to intervene when someone takes your wrecks/loot. Of course, if you teamed up with a salvager/corp mate/friend to handle the logistics of salvaging and acquiring loot (or used a 2nd account) this wouldn't be a problem.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 18:30:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sigul Siento
As far as I understand it, once a mission is turned in, the deadspace and all trappings of the mission go away, leaving any remaining wrecks and cans to float the vastness of space till they go pop. Though not all missions take place in actual "can't warp to"-deadspace, do they? Bit iffy on this, but seems from my limited experience that not all do.
All missions take place in deadspace that prohibits the use of MWDs and function broadly in the same way for scanning. That is my understanding at least.
Originally by: Sigul Siento
But regardless, once a (deadspace) mission is turned in by the missioner, the wrecks will be easy to scan down.
Define "easy." As easy as a ship? Easier than scanning a DS? Personally I can't think why a wreck should be easier to scan than a ship and as in most cases, there will be a large number of wrecks in a small area, the chance to scan an individual wreck should be lower than a ship, but this would balance with the large number of wrecks.
Originally by: Sigul Siento
And yes, I did mean that scanning wrecks would make salvagers go after wrecks missioners don't care about. Far from all salvage wrecks from their kills, so the unscannable wrecks go to waste as they are impossible to find unless the missioner forgot a drone in the area. A salvager finding an abandoned mission site isn't going after a "still used" site for the time being, and knowing that you can find wreck fields to salvage undisturbed means many won't bother going after wrecks if we see that someone is already there.
I broadly agree. Though I think you've got a bit too much faith in people being good natured. I think you'll find plenty of players will salvage away at wrecks whether there is anyone present or not, partly because they're too lazy to look elsewhere and partly because some players do just like to annoy you.
Originally by: Sigul Siento
I agree, but compromise solutions are often for the best.
The compromise is already in place in that hi-sec mission runners get to run missions in safety (war-decs and rare suicide attacks not withstanding). No further comprising is needed. The fact that cans are already flagged is bad enough as it should never have happened in the first place.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 09:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Scharfe Kerneisen
The system is broke, it needs fixed, period.
A compelling argument. I particularly liked the part where it was backed up with no reasoning or logic.
Well done.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 11:00:00 -
[6]
Could it have been a can with mission specific loot in? Otherwise I'd bug report it or get Gm clarification as to what happens if someone tries to put something of their's in your can.
Sounds like a bug or something that needs fixing to me. Looking in can shouldn't flag another player, that is just a silly idea. But another player (outside of your corp)shouldn't be able to put their possessions in your can either.
Of course, if we didn't have the stupid can flagging system in the first place this wouldn't be a problem.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 13:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Connor Banks
Hmm...i still dont like that someone else should be able to put stuff in your can, corp member or not. In my oppinion, cans are personal and by default no one but the owner should be able to put stuff in there.
It's great that you have that opinion, but once you join a real corp rather than an NPC corp you'll realise it is not really necessary to view cans that way. Which is my advice to you, join a real corp where you can trust your fellow corpmates, rather than be in an NPC corp where no one owes you any loyalties.
Originally by: Connor Banks
Perhaps modifying the can template to include settings so that the owner can decide who can and who cannot put stuff in your can (for example: no one, gang, corp, all) is something for CCP to consider?
To be fair, that is not a terrible idea, though frankly any changes that make it more comfortable for people to stay in NPC corps I don't welcome. Far better to encourage players out of those corps and into player corporations where such precautions are not necessary.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 14:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Bob Stuart
Edited by: Bob Stuart on 05/02/2008 13:43:45
How to do missions without running into salvage "thieves"?
Simple. You do missions in those systems where salvagers don't operate. It is only worth their while to operate in certain, high population, systems. While I wholly support your suggested approach, it takes even less effort to research what other agents you can easily gain access to (or may already have access to if your faction standings are high enough) and move to them.
Originally by: Bob Stuart
[Also, taking from cans didn't use to cause flagging, people could find your missions and take the loot, without you being able to do anything. Now, you have flagging, and you can attack someone stealing, but in reality you're no better off, because someone stealing is doing so because it's a trap.
Salvage flagging would just be used to try to destroy your mission ship, you would not be any better off.
Well said, QFT and all that jazz.
Flagging of wrecks would just mean we'd have "Can Flagging - The Next Whining Generation."
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 10:03:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Commander OTG
I may have not made my point clearly. Thieves may not be the right title. I ws merely referring to those that are rude and dont accept the fact that those wrecks would not be there if it wasn't for the previous work by the mission runner.
It might be rude for people to take wrecks without asking, but thats about all. The mission runner has already been recompensed for their "work" (used in the loosest possible sense) in the form of ISK for NPC bounties, LPs and mission rewards. As a mission runner, I resent the position taken by others that wrecks are somehow part of the overall reward for running missions. They are not, they are a byproduct.
Wrecks are a reward for whoever salvages them first.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 11:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
What is the salvager being recompensed for?
Cost of probes. Time spent finding the wrecks. Time spent salvaging the wrecks.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
All the same things the mission runner has invested EXCEPT taking the time and risk to create the wreck.
The mission runners recompense for the mission comes in the form of the reward, the LPs and the NPC bounties. That is the way it has always been. Wrecks are a by-product of mission running that has been added to the game. It is a presumption on the part of some mission runners, not all, that the wrecks are a defacto part of the mission reward. They are not. There is no reason why they should be.
Originally by: Righteous Deeds
There really isn't a logical way to justify this mechanic other than "CCP wants it this way." And that argument doesn't exactly mean it makes any sense whatever.
Not a single argument that makes any sense has been put forward as to why wrecks should be flagged for ownership. Not one. All the arguments in favour of it basically amount to greedy mission runners just wanting additional, guaranteed rewards on top of the hefty sums they already receive.
Furthermore, as has been amply demonstrated umpteen times, there is no need to change the system for salvaging or wrecks when it is so very easy for mission runners to make measures to avoid this happening to them.
|
|
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 12:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kusha'an
1. The rules for salvaging are not consistent. If the wreck belongs to anybody, then the wreck should be tractor-able after it has been looted. It is not. Either flag the wreck or make it tractorable. Saying you want salvaging as a profession but then forcing salvagers to fly to a wreck defeats the purpose.
I agree. Wrecks should be tractorable by anyone.
Originally by: Kusha'an
2. For those pirates who are bragging about teamwork and "I dare you to attack me, my gangmates will kick your at-symbol dollar-sign dollar-sign, the only response appopriate to that is:
What a waste of time, a gang of battlecruisers organized in attack mode just to get a lousy armor plate? That's hilarious. I hope when you try to salvage my wrecks I've just killed a bunch of serpentis. Jeez you could make more money mining. Good luck with that career. At that rate I'll be billions ahead of you. 
While I agree with your sentiment, remember that eve is a game played for fun and somepeople get pleasure out of such peversity.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 18:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon
Salvaging other peoples wrecks should flag you as thief, I agree.
Why? Give one good reason?
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon
Not that I've had any problems myself, but it's just stupid that they can essentially loot your wreck without any sort of repercussion. (Often the salvage on a BS is 10x the value of the loot)
So what? Just because it is more expensive is no reason to flag it. It is space flotsam, it has been stated numerous times why wrecks are not flagged.
|
Sendraks
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.02.07 13:59:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sendraks on 07/02/2008 14:00:03
Originally by: Mdram
i noticed yesterday when i was in a mission an 8day old player found me and came int o salvage my wrecks.
so its wither not that hard or hes using an alt after scanning.
Or you were in Motsu or some other similar busy system, where any fool can lobe a probe into space and find a mission runner. Finding mission runners in busy systems is not hard. Finding a specific mission runner is much harder.
If mission runners didn't make things easy for salvagers by being too lazy to research other hi-sec agents they could work for, there wouldn't be these whines.
Originally by: Mdram
kill rights would be so nice
No it wouldn't. Believe me you don't want this. Every lame ass whining idiot who asked for kill rights on cans quickly found out that it wasn't something they wanted once it was implemented.
Originally by: Mdram
whats the difference between salvaging a wreck or opening can?
I don't have to fit salvagers to open a can.
Seriously, there is no difference between unsecured cans and wrecks floating in space. There are both flotsam, free to be picked up by whoever wants them. CCP made a mistake changing the system for cans over a year ago now, which is the cause of the current inconsistency. Hopefully they'll see sense and change cans back to how they used to be.
Originally by: Mdram
this really should be changed.
Yes I agree. Can flagging should be removed from the game post haste. I can't imagine for a second that you mean wrecks should be flagged, as you've not cited any reasons why they should be.
|
|
|
| |
|