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Which Marauder is best for L4 missions?

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Requis Dicker Quick and Hyde Defense Attorneys O.U.Z.O. Alliance 0	Posted - 2017.01.23 01:44:30 - [1] - Quote I am thinking about getting a marauder for my missioning. I hear a lot of good things about Vargur. I live near Dodoxie. I wanna stay in highsec, so I don't think capitals are an option. What do you guys say?
Mo Skor Westworld Tours and Security 2	Posted - 2017.01.23 01:50:13 - [2] - Quote Into a bar walks a Minmitar warrior, an Amarrian priest, a Gallente colonel, and a Caldari test pilot....
Requis Dicker Quick and Hyde Defense Attorneys O.U.Z.O. Alliance 0	Posted - 2017.01.23 01:53:02 - [3] - Quote MinmatarMasterRace Ik. What do you mission with?
Chainsaw Plankton FaDoyToy 2482	Posted - 2017.01.23 02:32:56 - [4] - Quote paladin is great in amarr space, vargur/golem are both pretty good all around, kronos can do some crazy stuff with blasters. Dixie area I'd probably go with the kronos or vargur. If you really want a vargur get it. Personally I prefer the mach to the vargur but the vargur certainly has some advantages. @ChainsawPlankto
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5212	Posted - 2017.01.23 09:23:03 - [5] - Quote Honestly, they're all pretty good. Once you get to this point you really can't go wrong with any of them. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 828	Posted - 2017.01.23 10:01:15 - [6] - Quote I like the Vargur, but then I haven't really had the chance to try any of the others properly. It's one of the two most flexible along with the Golem. I even use a polarized one for blitzing a lv4 mission. Sure it's a 1bill ship to run a single mission but I kind of like the absurdity of it That said Marauders are not the best lv4 mission runners unless you plan on doing full clear + looting and salvaging or semi-AFK because RL reasons. Also learn to use and love the MJD. MJD is love, MJD is life. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Ruvin Out of Sight. 209	Posted - 2017.01.23 13:56:39 - [7] - Quote if u mission smart u usually dont have insane amount of killing to do ... i used Paladin in all spaces and it did pretty well. sniper tachyon fit with 2 prop mods (mwd mjd) It wasnt cap stable cos i never need to perma rep, and it wasnt mission specific fited (selecting hardeners) because i was lasy. And slowly when i got more and more used to it i started swaping tank for dps. Never was in danger, and hardly used drones, shooting from 100+km frigates poped just nicely. What i am saying unless u need to kill all 100% ships and salvage and stuff, difference isnt that BIG, so you can actually choose the one u like. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Ion Kirst KIRSTONE ALLIANCE 257	Posted - 2017.01.23 14:10:39 - [8] - Quote My goto ship for L4s is the Golem. I worked my way up from Raven, to CNR, to Golem. I even tried a Rattlesnake a few times. With my latest Golem fit, it clears the field very fast. It's almost too easy. With missiles, I don't have to worry about being in range. Everything in the field is in range, and the damage gets applied very well too. Don't have to show the fit, as it has been shown many times before. This same question keeps getting asked over and over, maybe even about a couple of dozen times, in the last couple of years. Don't you guys ever do any searches? The information is out there, and literally has been beat to death. -Kirst Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1147	Posted - 2017.01.23 15:27:30 - [9] - Quote This is simply a more focused version of the what is the best level 4 ship and the answer to this one is the same it depends on what you want and what you like. I have flown and still do fly all 4 marauders and they all have advantages, they all have weaknesses. So I will answer the question this way if I had to choose just one to fly it would be the Golem because it has the most consistent killing ability across all of the NPC races. No I did not say and I do not mean fastest killing, I said and meant most consistent. Anize Oramara wrote: That said Marauders are not the best lv4 mission runners unless you plan on doing full clear + looting and salvaging or semi-AFK because RL reasons. Why? I can see this from a cost versus benefit point of view or if you want maximum efficiency when blitzing. For general mission running where you are doing a mixture of both blitz and full or partial clear the marauders are superior to everything else. Anize Oramara wrote: Also learn to use and love the MJD. MJD is love, MJD is life. I will counter that with these points. There is only one single mission related situation where the MJD is clearly superior to any other options and that is to escape if you are low on cap and cannot continue to tank the incoming damage for whatever reason. In any and all other situations there is no clear advantage to the MJD. For those who blitz a MWD is usually superior because the multiple triangulated jumps can take more time than simply using MWD and flying directly towards where you need to be. For those who prefer to full clear the MJD represents a wasted slot that could be used for more tank or a damage mod or damage application mod. In fact for many that full clear there is simply no need for a prop mod of any kind since you point at the exit and kill while moving along and usually you get there about the same time the last thing in the pocket dies. If you like the MJD and want to use one, or simply fit it for that rare occasion where it may be useful then by all means put one on your ship.
Sentenced 1989 207	Posted - 2017.01.23 16:27:07 - [10] - Quote Friend asked me to compare battleships in PVE some time ago, here is copy paste from that mail (most of them are being compared to pirate battleships which sport same weapon type) Vargur - range is ok, damage is ok, somewhat selectable damage, ewar immunity comes great to keep your guns from being disrupted, lower dps then machariel, but larger range, very good choice Paladin - really good choice, great ship, liked it a lot, still do, but... It is locked into doing EM damage with lasers... so it is not that effective as Vargur / Golem on damage selections. However, very happy with the ship in general when you need to kill amarr ships Golem - this one is mixed. it has great range, great damage application to those battleships at 50 or more km. At around 55 km it starts doing more damage then Vargur or Machariel, but... it can't kill frigates fast :D With gunships, you split your guns and blap, Machariel in normal missions can take down 4 frigates every 3.6 seconds. With golem I was spending 14 seconds per one frigate, which is a pain. Kronos - As other marauders, it is nice, EWAR immunity big plus. However, blasters lack range + it doesn't have Vindie bonus to webs, so you have to go rails which lack tracking on short range. So fit MJD or MWD, keep distance and fire. But then in comparison with other Vargur or Paladin, you are better off with one of them. Even though it does Thermal + Kinetic damage it means it has better damage then Paladin, but has lower DPS, so Paladin might actually be better choice. Great ship if you don't need to engage laser ships or minmatar ships. The Incursion Guild Epic Arc Guide

Chainsaw Plankton FaDoyToy 2484	Posted - 2017.01.23 17:00:22 - [11] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: There is only one single mission related situation where the MJD is clearly superior to any other options and that is to escape if you are low on cap and cannot continue to tank the incoming damage for whatever reason. In any and all other situations there is no clear advantage to the MJD. For those who blitz a MWD is usually superior because the multiple triangulated jumps can take more time than simply using MWD and flying directly towards where you need to be. For those who prefer to full clear the MJD represents a wasted slot that could be used for more tank or a damage mod or damage application mod. In fact for many that full clear there is simply no need for a prop mod of any kind since you point at the exit and kill while moving along and usually you get there about the same time the last thing in the pocket dies. If you like the MJD and want to use one, or simply fit it for that rare occasion where it may be useful then by all means put one on your ship. The Assault and Pirate invasion both feature groups that are also the mission completion trigger ~100km from the warp in. A MJD means I don't have to worry about proximity aggro to any other npcs in the mission and I'm right on top of the only NPCs I need to shoot where I can use all of my 1300 dps as they try to slow boat away from me at 0 transversal. @ChainsawPlankto
aldhura Perkone Caldari State 110	Posted - 2017.01.23 17:50:16 - [12] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: I like the Vargur, but then I haven't really had the chance to try any of the others properly. It's one of the two most flexible along with the Golem. I even use a polarized one for blitzing a lv4 mission. Sure it's a 1bill ship to run a single mission but I kind of like the absurdity of it That said Marauders are not the best lv4 mission runners unless you plan on doing full clear + looting and salvaging or semi-AFK because RL reasons. Also learn to use and love the MJD. MJD is love, MJD is life. MJD's are people without skills. A golem is the best all rounder. If you only getting one, or just starting to use them, get a golem and put a proper prop mod on like an mwd.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 829	Posted - 2017.01.23 18:00:28 - [13] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: That said Marauders are not the best lv4 mission runners unless you plan on doing full clear + looting and salvaging or semi-AFK because RL reasons. Why? I can see this from a cost versus benefit point of view or if you want maximum efficiency when blitzing. For general mission running where you are doing a mixture of both blitz and full or partial clear the marauders are superior to everything else. Because full clear is an inferior way to run missions and either the Mach or the Barghest is faster. That is why I specifically mention full clear or semi AFK as those are the only two situations where a marauder is superior. The Machariel is faster in terms of agility, in pocket speed and warp speed, does not need to go into bastion mode for the increase in range and damage application and has more than enough tank for any lv4. The Barghest has superior damage application while moving at max speed (and has similar in pocket agility and speed as a Mach) meaning it has great damage mitigation and can also be fit for very long range and with the missile speed boost it usually doesn't suffer from the normal missile issue of missed volleys. Quote: Anize Oramara wrote: Also learn to use and love the MJD. MJD is love, MJD is life. I will counter that with these points. There is only one single mission related situation where the MJD is clearly superior to any other options and that is to escape if you are low on cap and cannot continue to tank the incoming damage for whatever reason. In any and all other situations there is no clear advantage to the MJD. For those who blitz a MWD is usually superior because the multiple triangulated jumps can take more time than simply using MWD and flying directly towards where you need to be. For those who prefer to full clear the MJD represents a wasted slot that could be used for more tank or a damage mod or damage application mod. In fact for many that full clear there is simply no need for a prop mod of any kind since you point at the exit and kill while moving along and usually you get there about the same time the last thing in the pocket dies. If you like the MJD and want to use one, or simply fit it for that rare occasion where it may be useful then by all means put one on your ship. I blitz Pirate assault with a Polarized Vargur specifically because of the MJD and Bastion allowing the use of Polarized weapons. But more to the general point of why to fit MJD. With the cooldown bonus, you can reach any gate in a mission pocket in 1-2 jumps or just over a minute for two jumps. That means you are in bastion on the out gate in around 70-80 sec after entering the mission / pocket. From what I can remember, if a gate is around 50-60km away from your starting point, it'd take about as long to get to it using a MWD as it would a MJD. Of course each has their own up and down side to how well you'd be applying damage in that first 70 or so seconds since in the one case you'd be perhaps at longer range form the rats and in the other you'd be moving at too high a speed to hit anything. So combined with the advantage of getting to a gate faster (and generally taking less damage before bastion going up) on gates further than 60km away and the GTFO ability of the MJD, it's very much worth it to fit one. Of course this does not preclude one from having a mobile depo and a MWD to switch out with depending on the pocket or heck, specific missions simply swapping them out in station. I even remember making lists of what missions I'd take a MWD or a MJD or even both. On a side note, full clear + salvage is best done by getting to your destination (be it mission trigger or gate) as quickly as possible so you can deploy a mobile tractor unit to help with looting and salvaging. So you will need a prop mod of some kind and on a marauder with bastion tank you do not exactly need a lot of tanking modules. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 4	Posted - 2017.01.23 18:47:02 - [14] - Quote I use a paladin, because I'm super lazy. I warp into the pocket, kill everything, and loot/salvage, then move on. I don't even use faction crystals because I don't want to deal with replacing them. 4 tachs, bastion, 3 tractors, mwd/mjd, 2 cap batteries, lar, reactive, eanm, 4x heat sink, ccc & anp, 5 salvage drones, 10 lights (em & kn), and an MTU. Most of my missions are Blood, Sansha, or Drones. EM/TH is great against all of them. Occasionally I get Angels (Extravaganza) or Guristas (Assault) and it takes me a little longer to kill them. Do I kill fast enough? Well when I blow up the last ship my MTU/tractors are typically still pulling a couple wrecks in... so yeah, I suppose it's fast enough for me. :) When I'm running L4s with a friend we use Armageddons and watch Geckos tear stuff up. I think the bottom line is--if you're blitzing you should probably look at a pirate BS, and if you aren't blitzing, then any Marauder you like should be fine. I like Amarr ships. Paladin.
Denise Le'Slut imagination corp 0	Posted - 2017.01.23 19:05:11 - [15] - Quote When it comes to marauders i have my skills maxed and flown all four for years in all types of L4 space. While Golem has the best killing abilities, with missiles you lose salvos and it gets very dull super fast. Kronos only really shines with blasters(love me some damsel missions), as railguns have a tiny range corridor they work OK in. Paladin's damage application to everything non-Sansha/Blood/Drone is underwhelming, but that's a laser problem and it has always been one. So for me it is Vargur hands down because of versatility in damage types, superb tracking and range, capless weapons and agility. Maybe just get all four and change ships according to mission, if you can fly and afford them. OT(oh) I changed from full-clear with dual-marauders to cherrypick-blitzing with dual-machs about a year ago, do not miss any income per time (hard to measure tho) and have way more fun than in any of those aforementioned tech2 brick battlesnails. Really hated the micro-management
Ion Kirst KIRSTONE ALLIANCE 258	Posted - 2017.01.23 22:51:36 - [16] - Quote In my post to this similar question in another post about Marauders, I don't count volleys. As I said, my Golem clears the field very fast, I really can't see another clearing any faster. How much faster than one volley be? Two volleys on a few, and 3 on some BSs. As I mentioned in my missions go like this: target, target, target, . . . 10 at once, then it's fire, pop, fire, pop, fire, pop, fire, pop. then there's two volleys, must be an elite cruiser, then maybe 3 volleys, a BS. I am sometimes even firing at another target, before the previous one pops. I'm sorry if other's can't do that there Golem. Maybe you need more skills, more dps, and be able to apply it more. Hey, lets do like I did on blitzing L3s. Lets actually put up some numbers on mission completion times. C'mon, this will be fun. I'll put up my Golem times against any one. I'm not saying I'll beat everyone, I'm saying the times will be very good and very close. -Kirst Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Ion Kirst KIRSTONE ALLIANCE 258	Posted - 2017.01.24 01:07:25 - [17] - Quote I'll create a new post, lay down some guide lines, and let the results speak for themselves. Just how fast can a L4 room be cleared? That's the bottom line isn't it. I don't want to take away from the OP's post, but that really wouldn't be bad. Any takers? -Kirst Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Mina Sebiestar Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate 1106	Posted - 2017.01.24 03:07:28 - [18] - Quote OP Wargur will do just fine Ion Wouldn't mind to see some completion times. Typhoon Fleet Issue SOE skin for the win.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5215	Posted - 2017.01.24 04:35:22 - [19] - Quote Ion Kirst wrote: I'll create a new post, lay down some guide lines, and let the results speak for themselves. Just how fast can a L4 room be cleared? That's the bottom line isn't it. I don't want to take away from the OP's post, but that really wouldn't be bad. I'd be interested in that. Do we include the time from mission accept to completion (including travel time), or just from the time you land, start shooting and clear the last red target or mission ovbjective? If you start a new thread, just list the criteria and for those that participte they can edit their originial post with subsequent mission and clear times. Are we limiting this to Marauders or can any ship participate? (might be interesting to see how a Golem fares against a Rattlesnake, etc.) I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1148	Posted - 2017.01.24 15:34:19 - [20] - Quote Chainsaw Plankton wrote: The Assault and Pirate invasion both feature groups that are also the mission completion trigger ~100km from the warp in. A MJD means I don't have to worry about proximity aggro to any other npcs in the mission and I'm right on top of the only NPCs I need to shoot where I can use all of my 1300 dps as they try to slow boat away from me at 0 transversal. Your comment proves nothing, it is simply a statement of your personal preferences. ALL level 4 mission in the pool can be completed without using any form of prop mod or the MJD, since they can be completed without those modules their use is not required and that gets back to my comment. The only place where the MJD is clearly superior to any other option and in fact could even remotely be considered a requirement is it's use as an escape tool because nothing else in the game can do what the MJD can do when you need to escape. As far as that close in agro it has never been a problem the additional tank afforded by using the slot for a 4th tnak mod instead of a MJD means that I simply ignore that damage and let my tank take care of it while I shoot at the stuff out there in the next county. Anize Oramara wrote: On a side note, full clear + salvage is best done by getting to your destination (be it mission trigger or gate) as quickly as possible so you can deploy a mobile tractor unit to help with looting and salvaging. So you will need a prop mod of some kind and on a marauder with bastion tank you do not exactly need a lot of tanking modules. Simply another personal preference stated as if it was a scientifically provable fact. I tired this craptastic way of running missions when the MTU were first released and discovered that it slows the process significantly. It is better to use that slot for tank and kill while you move from warp in to exit usually arriving at the exit at the same time you finish killing it all. With the pocket dead you can bring in a noctis to clean up while the combat character moves on to the next pocket or even the next mission. Yes I know this actually requires one to think and actually invest some effort which seems to be an issue for many who run missions but it is significantly faster than your method. And you are right, my way is not better if you do not have the second account, or the characters on that account do not have the proper skills and that brings me back to a point I keep making in these mission topics. There never has been and never will be a single "best" ship, or a single "best" method for running missions because there are to many variables from personal preferences / expectations, character skills to the NPC you most often face and even the amount of ISK you can or you are willing to spend on your mission ship / ships.

Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 5	Posted - 2017.01.24 21:16:42 - [21] - Quote I find all the Marauders are pretty much equal. The Paladin kicks out fantastic EM/TH damage with tachyons, but you'll lose some of that on Angel/Guristas/Serpentis. The Kronos is rocking a little less TH/KN with rails, but that damage applies better. The Golem and Vargur do less than the Kronos with Arty/Cruise, but they can pick their damage type. All in all I find it's pretty much a wash--pick the one you enjoy looking at the most and run with it. (I don't run close range weapons on mission ships--I enjoy being able to frag anything I like from the cheap seats, especially with an MJD.) The blitz guide for Pirate Invasion is to MJD/MWD over to group 5 and kill it. I just land in the pocket and kill them, warp out. No need to mess around with... yuk... moving. :)
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5222	Posted - 2017.01.25 13:55:07 - [22] - Quote Overall (regardless of Empire space), the Golem wins hands down as it is able to apply 100% native damage to any NPC. This is something none of the other Marauders can match. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sentenced 1989 207	Posted - 2017.01.25 17:26:04 - [23] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Overall (regardless of Empire space), the Golem wins hands down as it is able to apply 100% native damage to any NPC. This is something none of the other Marauders can match. That is incorrect. The Golem is able to apply 100% native damage to any Battleship NPC, when it comes to smaller things, it is sh**. Like mentioned before, max skilled toon with Vargur can take 2-4 frigates down every 4 seconds (autocannons) if the frigate is at 22-45km range. Golem can not do that. with golem you can take 1 frigate down every 6-12 seconds (cruise). Depending on missions, that thing plays a lot of role. I tested missile ships quite a lot of times and always was dissapointed, unless you need to kill one enemy at 80km range to complete mission. And I also wrote log parsers for EVE logs so I can analyze damage outputs and other statistics, as well as tested with T2 fits, Faction fits, noob toons and maxed out toons. Golem is by far safest and easiest way to run missions, but then again it is slowest if you go for full clean (it is contested for being slowest by Paladin when facing Angels) The Incursion Guild Epic Arc Guide
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5222	Posted - 2017.01.25 18:03:39 - [24] - Quote Sentenced 1989 wrote: That is incorrect. The Golem is able to apply 100% native damage to any Battleship NPC, when it comes to smaller things, it is sh*. Like mentioned before, max skilled toon with Vargur can take 2-4 frigates down every 4 seconds (autocannons) if the frigate is at 22-45km range. Golem can not do that. with golem you can take 1 frigate down every 6-12 seconds (cruise). Depending on missions, that thing plays a lot of role. I tested missile ships quite a lot of times and always was dissapointed, unless you need to kill one enemy at 80km range to complete mission. And I also wrote log parsers for EVE logs so I can analyze damage outputs and other statistics, as well as tested with T2 fits, Faction fits, noob toons and maxed out toons. Golem is by far safest and easiest way to run missions, but then again it is slowest if you go for full clean (it is contested for being slowest by Paladin when facing Angels) I think you misunderstood. The Golem can apply 100% of the strongest native damage type to any NPC. None of the other Marauders can achieve 100% EM, thermal, kinetic or explosive damage - and will lose 5-60% of stated DPS depending on NPC type. For that reason it will always achieve 100% of stated DPS before damage application. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.*
Enduros Fish go m000 118	Posted - 2017.01.26 12:13:37 - [25] - Quote Why don't you just fit MWD and MJD? I have both on my varg and it works great. Gate is at 50-70, MJD and burn back. NPCs out there at 100, mjd in there and blow them up. Aggro whole room take out big stuff, MJD out and blap frigs, MJD back take gate to next room...
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5224	Posted - 2017.01.26 12:37:05 - [26] - Quote Enduros wrote: Why don't you just fit MWD and MJD? I have both on my varg and it works great. Gate is at 50-70, MJD and burn back. NPCs out there at 100, mjd in there and blow them up. Aggro whole room take out big stuff, MJD out and blap frigs, MJD back take gate to next room... Because some players like to do things the hard way and not equip propulsion modules... Micro Jump Drives truly shine on Marauders. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sentenced 1989 207	Posted - 2017.01.26 13:19:43 - [27] - Quote Enduros wrote: Why don't you just fit MWD and MJD? I have both on my varg and it works great. Gate is at 50-70, MJD and burn back. NPCs out there at 100, mjd in there and blow them up. Aggro whole room take out big stuff, MJD out and blap frigs, MJD back take gate to next room... Because slots matter, one slot for invul, one for booster, one for sebo, two for tracking computer, one for MWD. Having both MWD and MJD is wasting a slot. Invul and booster are self explanatory. Sebo cuts locking time of frigates from 15 seconds to like 7 seconds, two tracking computers add needed range on AC to hit at 50km, and then you have propulsion mode. Personally I prefer MWD because it is more flexible. I understand safety net of MJD, but that is all that it is in missions in most cases. If you are not sure in your skills / tank - use MJD. Otherwise use MWD The Incursion Guild Epic Arc Guide
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5224	Posted - 2017.01.26 13:34:41 - [28] - Quote Sentenced 1989 wrote: Because slots matter, one slot for invul, one for booster, one for sebo, two for tracking computer, one for MWD. Having both MWD and MJD is wasting a slot. Invul and booster are self explanatory. Sebo cuts locking time of frigates from 15 seconds to like 7 seconds, two tracking computers add needed range on AC to hit at 50km, and then you have propulsion mode. Personally I prefer MWD because it is more flexible. I understand safety net of MJD, but that is all that it is in missions in most cases. If you are not sure in your skills / tank - use MJD. Otherwise use MWD If you're running short-range weapons a MJD and MWD are basically a must. Otherwise you will lose a lot of potential DPS to being out-ranged by NPCs. An extra optimal range-scripted tracking computer won't solve that. If you have a myriad of targets a sensor booster isn't really going to help in the long-run, either. At best, it saves you a volley or two at the outset. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1150	Posted - 2017.01.26 15:05:14 - [29] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Because full clear is an inferior way to run missions and either the Mach or the Barghest is faster. Missed this one earlier. This is just a flat out lie. Full clear may be "inferior" to you but that does not mean that it is an "inferior" way to run missions for everyone in the game and I present myself as a perfect example of this. I am in my mid 60's and manage a business with 18 employees that does 5 million a year in gross sales. I can easily afford to buy and sell several trillion ISK worth of plex a month and I could do that every month if I want / need to. Standings are not an issue either, I already have accounts full of characters that have the standings needed to do what I want, and if I ever find something I need I can always pay (in cash) for more accounts and simply buy the characters from the character bazaar that have the skills / standings needed. With all of these normal reasons why people blitz missions accounted for and in fact not relevant to me how efficient I am at running missions is not relevant. Yes sometimes I do blitz. There are also times when I will spend several hours on a single mission charting what the NPC do or how they respond to a specific set of circumstances. Being free of the "requirement" to make ISK I am free to explore missions from another angle, often trying many fits that are significantly less than optimal simply to see how they respond to a specific mission. Then there is the whole crazy notion of using missions as a way to help relieve the stress from a difficult day at work. For me nothing in EvE is better at that than hopping into the no prop mod / no mjd ultra short ranged blaster fit Kronos and just go all smashy face on stuff. Yep inefficient as hell and my missions character has lost more than a few multi billion ISK ships as a result but you know what, I simply do not care it was what I wanted to do at the time and I had fun doing it. And then there is always the single best reason to full clear and loot / salvage. A lot of new players I work with will not accept ships / ammo / ISK etc when offered they want to do it themselves. Offer them the chance to help with the loot / salvage aspect of missions and they usually accept because you are not "giving" them something, they are "earning" it by helping you with your missions.
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 6	Posted - 2017.01.26 17:24:58 - [30] - Quote Quote: I think you misunderstood. The Golem can apply 100% of the strongest native damage type to any NPC. None of the other Marauders can achieve 100% EM, thermal, kinetic or explosive damage - and will lose 5-60% of stated DPS depending on NPC type. For that reason it will always achieve 100% of stated DPS before damage application. As for damage application, yes - the Golem is capable of applying 100% damage to structures, turrets, battleships, battlecruisers, destroyers, most cruisers and some frigates. For the pesky Elite cruisers, frigates and drones - a quick switch to Precision ammunition generally takes care of these in a volley or two. Is 100% damage application that important? I mean I think it's a good thing, but I don't know that it's as important as you are making out. Let's look at the numbers: Golem, 4x t2 Cruise w/ Navy Ammo + 4x t2 BCS = 745 DPS Paladin, 4x t2 Tachyon w/ Navy Multi + 4x t2 HS = 979 DPS So first let's look at the Paladins "weak spots". Guristas, Serpentis, and Angels: Against Guristas average resist profile, the Golem will kick out 514 DPS. Our lowly Paladin will only do 494. Well... that's not as severe of a difference as I would expect from your description. But after all the Golem does 3/4 of the Paladins raw DPS--so while it's shooting a stronger resist it's hitting it harder. But everyone knows Angels are the Paladin's worst matchup. In this case the Golem kicks out an average of 507 DPS, while the Paladin drags along at 446 DPS. Yup, the Golem does more damage against those pesky Angels. I wouldn't call that an insurmountable gulf, but it's definitely more damage. Serpentis? Golem 462 / Paladin 544. Oops. Drones? Golem 432 / Paladin 568. Awkward. Sansha/Blood? Golem 514 / Paladin 643. Yeah. So yes, a Golem can kill Angels & Guristas a little faster. A Paladin can kill everything else faster. And with an MJD, everything is within the 56k optimal (86k w/ falloff) of the tachyons. Frigates die 4 at a time, cruisers 2 at a time, and BS's die just fine.

Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5226	Posted - 2017.01.26 19:36:36 - [31] - Quote Most players who run Golems utilize Fury ammunition, so your DPS numbers are off. So yes, a Golem will definately outperform a Paladin by a considerable margin against Serpentis, Guristas and Angels. As it can hit out past 125km without effort there are a few missions where it will also excel against Sansha, Blood and Drones as well. Against Mercenaries it's probably a toss-up as tachyons aren't great below a certain range and pulse with Scorch primarily puts out EM. Drones are kind of a moot point since both the Paladin and Golem can field the same number of light drones. The Paladin certainly has more cargo space for salvaging as crystals literally take up nothing. You can also have a wide range of crystals to instantly adjust to range, so there's also that advantage. Lead time with cruise and counting volleys definately sucks on the Golem, and you need an insane amount of application to deal decent damage to frigates (switching to Precision helps). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 7	Posted - 2017.01.26 20:31:26 - [32] - Quote Fury: Angel - 617 Blood - 626 Guristas - 626 Drones - 526 Sansha - 626 Serpentis - 563 With an explosion radius/velocity of 425 m / 109 m/s. Now your application to even BCs is impacted. I didn't list Fury on purpose. The point of my examination was not to say "a Paladin is the best marauder". The point was to show that the Golem is not the best. None of them are. Except for outlier comparisons they end up being about the same--close enough that without doing the math there's no real difference. Yes, a Golem can use painters and rigs to improve their application on smaller ships. A Paladin can use an MJD to remove tracking from any application equation. Killing ships at 125k is mostly useless with MWDs and MJDs. A rail-kronos does less DPS than a tach-Paladin but TH/KN is typically a better damage mix. Vargur/Golem do the least, but can switch the the best damage type. It's all a wash, typically. A pulse Paladin has very little improvement over tachs since there's no Tachyon-Pulse. A blaster Kronos does STUPID dps at silly close range. It all balances out really.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5226	Posted - 2017.01.26 20:35:42 - [33] - Quote Takh Meir'noen wrote: With an explosion radius/velocity of 425 m / 109 m/s. Now your application to even BCs is impacted. I didn't list Fury on purpose. Before application... With application it's around 240/180, so even cruisers get clipped for full damage. Only frigates escape complete destruction. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 7	Posted - 2017.01.26 21:36:01 - [34] - Quote Woah. How many rigs/modules are you devoting to pull that off? LOL
aldhura Vanilla.Corp 110	Posted - 2017.01.26 21:46:15 - [35] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Sentenced 1989 wrote: Because slots matter, one slot for invul, one for booster, one for sebo, two for tracking computer, one for MWD. Having both MWD and MJD is wasting a slot. Invul and booster are self explanatory. Sebo cuts locking time of frigates from 15 seconds to like 7 seconds, two tracking computers add needed range on AC to hit at 50km, and then you have propulsion mode. Personally I prefer MWD because it is more flexible. I understand safety net of MJD, but that is all that it is in missions in most cases. If you are not sure in your skills / tank - use MJD. Otherwise use MWD If you're running short-range weapons a MJD and MWD are basically a must. Otherwise you will lose a lot of potential DPS to being out-ranged by NPCs. An extra optimal range-scripted tracking computer won't solve that. If you have a myriad of targets a sensor booster isn't really going to help in the long-run, either. At best, it saves you a volley or two at the outset. If you running a mjd you wasting time getting about, if you fitting a mwd and mjd, well.. then you wasting utility. I would love to see someone beat me to a mission gate with an mjd.. most gates are less than 100km, and by the time you have figured out how to triangulate that, I would have cleared the next room.
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 7	Posted - 2017.01.26 22:23:51 - [36] - Quote I run an MWD & MJD on my Paladin. The MWD is because I like pushing 1 km/s between gates. The MJD isn't a waste of utility--it is my utility. Most of the time I land in a pocket and pop everything before it can get close enough for tracking to be an issue. But if tracking ever is an issue, just MJD, and it's no longer an issue. I can hit a ship with 0 transversal @ 86k with multis. When there's pockets with a bunch of stuff that starts on top of you, I drop an MTU, MJD away, kill it all, and MJD back.
The Bigpuns Touring New Eden Haven. 236	Posted - 2017.01.26 22:24:57 - [37] - Quote As an aside to the golem dps application saga, if you are fitting your golem to apply good damage to small ships, you are wasting slots when shooting at battleships, which are the biggest hitpoint sink in most missions. Leave small ships to drones, or leave them to last and switch to precision to mop them up at the end of the pocket. Any way you look at it, efficiency is going to drop due to these problems that turret boats don't have. On top of this, my other marauders all have a spare low slot after fitting four damage mods and tank if appropriate. This is normally used for an istab, which makes a fair difference to mission turn in times. Other people have said, and I agree, golem is the most consistent of the marauders, but I find the three turret marauders will normally clear missions quicker, which is my preferred metric for both full clear and blitzing.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5226	Posted - 2017.01.26 22:47:29 - [38] - Quote The Bigpuns wrote: As an aside to the golem dps application saga, if you are fitting your golem to apply good damage to small ships, you are wasting slots when shooting at battleships, which are the biggest hitpoint sink in most missions. Leave small ships to drones, or leave them to last and switch to precision to mop them up at the end of the pocket. Any way you look at it, efficiency is going to drop due to these problems that turret boats don't have. On top of this, my other marauders all have a spare low slot after fitting four damage mods and tank if appropriate. This is normally used for an istab, which makes a fair difference to mission turn in times. I rarely find I need the fourth damage module as you get more from three damage modules and a T2 rig. But you're right about the inertial stabilizers - they really cut down on travel and gate transit time. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 7	Posted - 2017.01.26 22:50:13 - [39] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Takh Meir'noen wrote: With an explosion radius/velocity of 425 m / 109 m/s. Now your application to even BCs is impacted. I didn't list Fury on purpose. Before application... With application it's around 240/180, so even cruisers get clipped for full damage. Only frigates escape complete destruction. angel frigates are ~35 sig w/ ~550 speed (275 orbit) angel destroyers are ~80 sig w/ 500 speed (250 orbit) angel cruisers are ~125 sig w/ 450 speed (225 orbit) angel battlecruisers are ~230 sig w/ 400 speed (200 orbit) angel battleships are ~350 sig w/ 350 speed (175 orbit) So if you were at 240/180 (seriously how many modules/rigs does that take) that's 11% application to frigs, 27% to destroyers, 45% to cruisers, 87% to battlecruisers, and 100% to battleships. A target painter helps out (18% FF/41% DD/69% CC/100% BC), but that's another slot devoted to making Fury missiles apply to small targets. I'd run a Golem with 4 cruise, 4 bcs, 1 painter, and a load of precision/fury/faction cruise missiles. Again, I'm not saying the Golem is bad--I'm just saying it's not a stand-out winner among Marauders.
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 7	Posted - 2017.01.26 23:00:26 - [40] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: The Bigpuns wrote: As an aside to the golem dps application saga, if you are fitting your golem to apply good damage to small ships, you are wasting slots when shooting at battleships, which are the biggest hitpoint sink in most missions. Leave small ships to drones, or leave them to last and switch to precision to mop them up at the end of the pocket. Any way you look at it, efficiency is going to drop due to these problems that turret boats don't have. On top of this, my other marauders all have a spare low slot after fitting four damage mods and tank if appropriate. This is normally used for an istab, which makes a fair difference to mission turn in times. I rarely find I need the fourth damage module as you get more from three damage modules and a T2 rig. But you're right about the inertial stabilizers - they really cut down on travel and gate transit time. Something doesn't make sense to me. You said you have 240/180 with Fury Missiles. You also have 3 damage mods + a T2 damage rig. That means using MIDs, 1 LO, and 1 RIG (t1 rig at that) you are getting to 240/180. If I run a T1 rigor + 4x t2 Missile Guidance w/ Precision script I get to 258 \| 166. Could you maybe just share your Golem fit? I think I'm just not good enough with the math to figure this out on my own.

Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5227	Posted - 2017.01.26 23:15:56 - [41] - Quote Takh Meir'noen wrote: Something doesn't make sense to me. You're forgetting target painters and implants. I can't remember my fit offhand, but I have a rigor, a pair of precision-scripted missile T2 guidance computers, two Faction target painters and V skills. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 7	Posted - 2017.01.27 02:36:08 - [42] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Takh Meir'noen wrote: Something doesn't make sense to me. You're forgetting target painters and implants. I can't remember my fit offhand, but I have a rigor, a pair of precision-scripted missile T2 guidance computers, two Faction target painters and V skills. I didn't forget target painters--they don't change the explosion radius/velocity. You said you have 240 \| 180 and I'm trying to figure that out. Based on what you stated your Fury has 278m \| 145 m/s application. 2 faction target painters should yield... x2.49 size? FF - 19% DD - 45% CC - 74% BC - 100% BS - 100% So by devoting 5 slots (4 MID + 1 RIG) you get up to that application. Seems like a big investment just to apply better to cruisers, when you could just shoot precision instead. BTW even with GP-806 & TN-906 fitted I'm only showing 261m \| 154 m/s with Fury. This is EFT-Fu, so of course it's all 5 skills. I still don't understand how you're reaching 240 \| 180. With FOUR t2MGC + All Vs + GP-806 & TN-906 implants I get 243m \| 176m/s using Fury. So... yeah.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 832	Posted - 2017.01.27 10:09:13 - [43] - Quote aldhura wrote: If you running a mjd you wasting time getting about, if you fitting a mwd and mjd, well.. then you wasting utility. I would love to see someone beat me to a mission gate with an mjd.. most gates are less than 100km, and by the time you have figured out how to triangulate that, I would have cleared the next room. I would like to point out that it will typically take you all of 2 seconds to triangulate roughly the area since the gate activation bubble is actually pretty big. This was a pretty big discussion when the MJD came out and the MJD bonus was given to Marauder.. years? ago. MJDs are typically the superior prop mod for Marauders for around half the available missions. Not opinion, but demonstrated fact. Just swap out the prop mod in station. Once you get used to using the MJD after an hour or so you'll understand. It just is what it is. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Ruvin Out of Sight. 211	Posted - 2017.01.27 15:26:41 - [44] - Quote double prob master race. mjd and mwd ftw. Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1151	Posted - 2017.01.27 15:49:10 - [45] - Quote Takh Meir'noen wrote: I didn't forget target painters--they don't change the explosion radius/velocity. You said you have 240 \| 180 and I'm trying to figure that out. Based on what you stated your Fury has 278m \| 145 m/s application. 2 faction target painters should yield... x2.49 size? You have to look at the whole damage equation, while you are correct that painters do not affect explosion radius or velocity they do affect sig radius. Faster, smaller explosions or larger targets really does not matter all that much they are both equally effective. Applying damage and having enough damage to handle the BS / BC in missions is easy with a Golem and cruise you simply use T2 Fury ammo. Applying to smaller targets gets a bit more challenging so I go with this basic fit, not as good against the larger stuff, since I full clear it works better overall because it applies so well to the smaller stuff. 2 x T2 Rigors 4 x Faction BCS 2 x precision scripted T2 MGC With a pilot that has all applicable skills to level 5 and no implants. T2 fury - 948 dps, 166,556 range, 144.8 explosion velocity, 194.6 explosion radius. T2 precision - 677 dps, 111,037 range, 207.43 explosion velocity, 101.9 explosion radius There is a lot left on the table as it were because I do not use implants. My mission character flies so many different ships and I hate the hassles of constantly clone jumping for implants so I simply stopped using them. Besides that they never made more than a few minutes difference in an average mission and I simply do not care about those few minutes so why bother.
Takh Meir'noen 24th Imperial Recon 7	Posted - 2017.01.27 16:21:23 - [46] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Takh Meir'noen wrote: I didn't forget target painters--they don't change the explosion radius/velocity. You said you have 240 \| 180 and I'm trying to figure that out. Based on what you stated your Fury has 278m \| 145 m/s application. 2 faction target painters should yield... x2.49 size? You have to look at the whole damage equation, while you are correct that painters do not affect explosion radius or velocity they do affect sig radius. Faster, smaller explosions or larger targets really does not matter all that much they are both equally effective. Applying damage and having enough damage to handle the BS / BC in missions is easy with a Golem and cruise you simply use T2 Fury ammo. Applying to smaller targets gets a bit more challenging so I go with this basic fit, not as good against the larger stuff, since I full clear it works better overall because it applies so well to the smaller stuff. 2 x T2 Rigors 4 x Faction BCS 2 x precision scripted T2 MGC With a pilot that has all applicable skills to level 5 and no implants. T2 fury - 948 dps, 166,556 range, 144.8 explosion velocity, 194.6 explosion radius. T2 precision - 677 dps, 111,037 range, 207.43 explosion velocity, 101.9 explosion radius There is a lot left on the table as it were because I do not use implants. My mission character flies so many different ships and I hate the hassles of constantly clone jumping for implants so I simply stopped using them. Besides that they never made more than a few minutes difference in an average mission and I simply do not care about those few minutes so why bother. I understand the purpose the target painters serve (I even showed their effect on application vs angels with your claimed fit), that's not what I'm disputing. To be blunt, I'm saying your numbers don't check out. [Golem, L4 Donnachadh] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II There is the fit you described, right out of Pyfa. All 5 skills, no implants, Nova Fury (as I'm looking at Angels, a Paladin's worst matchup), 2x t2 MGC (precision script), 2x faction painter, 4x faction BCS (but you said before you run 3 + rigor), and 2x t2 rigor. I still don't see the same numbers you are claiming. Fury: 243 radius \| 145 velocity \| 908 DPS Precision: 127 radius \| 207 velocity \| 648 DPS So I'm trying to figure out why it's off. I understand that the application with 2 painters on this is going to be stellar. I really do. That doesn't change the fact that you are claiming explosion radius/velocity that doesn't match what Pyfa is kicking out, and DPS numbers that are too high. Wait. Nevermind I figured out the DPS, you aren't factoring reload time. So the explosion radius is still off. I'd like to know if that's a problem with Pyfa, or your numbers. My buddy wants to use a Golem really bad and is training towards it--I'd like to be able to help him experiment with a solid fit, and I can't do that if Pyfa is wrong.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5227	Posted - 2017.01.27 17:06:46 - [47] - Quote Unless you're multi-boxing, missions are roughly going to take the same amount of time to clear - regardless of Marauder used. You can tweak your implants and fit to reduce travel time, increase DPS and improve damage application - but ultimately RNG is going to have as much of an impact as anything you do. Some Marauders will excel in certain Empire space while others will be more effective against certain NPCs. The one thing that everyone can probably agree on is that Marauders are the most efficient way of clearing missions because you're using at least 25-50% less ammunition. Beyond that, it's really personal preference or bias that motivates us. After a few thousand missions, most of you are going to find that full mission clearing, looting and salvaging with Marauders is boring as sin. It's fun to come back to occasionally but once you get to the point where you have V skills, +6 implants and have basically come within 0.1% of perfection - you're going to look for more exciting things to do in EVE. This typically entails more risk and thus the blitz/Burner method Anize has worked to perfect offers the most bang for your buck, a solid skill path and a way to pay for all the stuff you're going to eventually lose in EVE. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
aldhura Vanilla.Corp 110	Posted - 2017.01.27 19:45:45 - [48] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: aldhura wrote: If you running a mjd you wasting time getting about, if you fitting a mwd and mjd, well.. then you wasting utility. I would love to see someone beat me to a mission gate with an mjd.. most gates are less than 100km, and by the time you have figured out how to triangulate that, I would have cleared the next room. I would like to point out that it will typically take you all of 2 seconds to triangulate roughly the area since the gate activation bubble is actually pretty big. This was a pretty big discussion when the MJD came out and the MJD bonus was given to Marauder.. years? ago. MJDs are typically the superior prop mod for Marauders for around half the available missions. Not opinion, but demonstrated fact. Just swap out the prop mod in station. Once you get used to using the MJD after an hour or so you'll understand. It just is what it is. How long does it take you to get to a point in space/gate with an mjd if you are 56km away ?? try it and time it, then do the same with a 500mn mwd, and then come back and share which is the best option. Also I am shooting while I move, you lose some damage application time.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5230	Posted - 2017.01.28 07:13:59 - [49] - Quote The best option is both, and it's usually not a problem to fit both. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
aldhura Vanilla.Corp 110	Posted - 2017.01.28 19:00:06 - [50] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: The best option is both, and it's usually not a problem to fit both. Soooo in other posts you go on about damage application, and here you pretty much say .. yea go ahead, wast a slot for a second prop mod and lose out out more better damage application as the slot could have been used for TP's, Tracking etc..

Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5232	Posted - 2017.01.28 20:28:59 - [51] - Quote You do realize that Bastion is stacking penalized, yes? You don't necessarily gain enough damage application from one additional module than you would the ability to insantly jump 100km - especially where short range weapons are concerned. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5233	Posted - 2017.01.28 23:13:57 - [52] - Quote I always thought the Golem was the best all-around Marauder, but after zipping around in a Vargur this afternoon I think I may have been wrong all this time. For starters, the Vargur has a better native shield resist profile (25-30-40-50) that lacks the distinct EM hole of the Golem. This means you can effectively over-tank it with just a single adaptive invulnerability. It also has an extra low slot which you can use to boost its mobility to well over 1250m/s - this also makes it the fastest and most maneuverable Marauder. The Kronos and Paladin both get a damage bonus but the Vargur is the only Marauder with a rate of fire bonus (the Golem gets nothing) - which gives it not only the highest potential DPS but the fastest rate of fire. It's also the only other Marauder besides the Golem that doesn't require capacitor to fire weapons (this allows you to run a cap-stable fit for the most part). Aside from the Paladin, it also has the highest ammunition capacity with autocannons (120) which means you're never reloading. Because of the inherent tracking bonus with the Vargur you really only need to run a pair of optimal range-scripted tracking computers (Bastion penalizes the third anyway). This leaves room for a sensor booster to quickly lock targets (with Barrage the Vargur can hit out to 113km!) Interesting enough I ran the numbers and a standard 800mm Vargur actually outperforms both a Polarized Vargur and Polarized Machariel past 40km. For the slight increase in short-range DPS it's really not worth giving up the tank since most targets are going to fall into that 35-60km 'sweet' zone anyway. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Endecroix One More Nightmare 35	Posted - 2017.02.03 20:14:23 - [53] - Quote Paladin or Vargur depending on where you are space wise. Don't get me wrong I love the Golem but I feel it's not quite as good as the Vargur and the Paladin is supreme against certain NPCs. The Kronos is the poor relation. With salvage being so bad with a few exceptions though I'd really be looking at a Mach and just blitzing through stuff. Marauders are more forgiving though if you can't give it your full attention eg multiboxing or real life intrusions.
Kaiden krios Mangueireiros 10	Posted - 2017.02.04 01:46:29 - [54] - Quote In my main account i have a Vargur, and in secondary i have a Kronos. In the past i had a Golem and a Paladin. All 4 marauders are excelents in their type of weapon with good bonus. In my opinion, Paladin is very good against all rats except Angels, and many missions are against them. Golem too but missiles are so boooooring (for me of corse). My personal choise, Vargur, love it, Minmatar is in my blood lol. Like others said, the resists profiles, ACs dont use capacitor, good mobility and you can select damage type, and the range is very nice too. Kronos, not as good as Vargur, but is ok with Blaster and Void ammunition, and i love that sexy hull.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5266	Posted - 2017.02.04 15:34:58 - [55] - Quote You're not wrong about the Golem - missile are boring as sin. What's particularly grating is the initial launch for cruise missiles, because they just hang there for several seconds after leaving the tubes and continuing on their merry way. You're often a good chunk into your next cycle before they're even on their way to the target... Target painters are effective, but again - annoying as hll to be constantly clicking to apply. Between counting volleys and timing cycles, it ends up being a lot of micromanagement and somewhat unfulfilling for a ship which you should be having a riot in. The Golem is the best at taking out battleships bar-none because it can hit for 100% damage application every time at any range. It sucks against frigates, though - so you either waste time switching to Precision ammunition or waiting for your wing of light drones to take them out (usually losing 1 or 2 in the process). I have a love-hate relationship with missiles. I really want to fly the Golem - it just sucks the fun factor out everything. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.*
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1162	Posted - 2017.02.04 17:29:42 - [56] - Quote Takh Meir'noen wrote: So the explosion radius is still off. I'd like to know if that's a problem with Pyfa, or your numbers. My buddy wants to use a Golem really bad and is training towards it--I'd like to be able to help him experiment with a solid fit, and I can't do that if Pyfa is wrong. Are you actually using implants you aren't mentioning? Are you using boosters? What gives? Apologies for the delayed response, work issues limiting my time here. I have no idea what the difference is. I just double checked between PYFA and EvEHQ and the numbers are off between the two but they are off by less than 1% we are considerably more than 1% off. I checked for updates to both programs and the most recent version of both is installed so I doubt that is it. If there is someone here that uses EFT could you run this fit and see what the numbers are. In the end other than talking points or simply for paper numbers it really does not matter if they match, you are on the front line so to speak and you are the one that will have to explain to your friend so go with what you have. I never calculate reload times into numbers I post on a forum anywhere, there are to many variables at play. Calculating for a reload when the launchers / turrets are empty is no more accurate at predicting what you will actually achieve in any given circumstance than simply quoting the numbers without reload. I always found it better and less confusing to simply quote the numbers from the fit tool and allow those who read them to adjust based on their experiences and references. The character that flies the Golem does have an "Inherent Implants 'Squire'Power Grid Management EG 603" implant because he needs that for a logi fit he flies as well, it is unlikely but I guess it is possible that is throwing off the numbers. Other than that simply the basic set of plus 4 attribute implants. If your friend wants to fly a Golem the best fit will be what they like, not what you think they should fly. So my thoughts on that are to give them a wide range of possible fits, explain the advantages / disadvantages to all of them and let them decide which is right for them. I like cruise, my son likes torps, mine is better against the small ships his is better against the big stuff. A corp mate is paranoid about losing his Golem so he uses an MJD and works around the max range of the cruise missiles moving whenever anything gets to close for his comfort level. A friend likes to get up close and personal in his Golem so he is heavy on tank because he does not like to be tied in place with the bastion, He is experimenting with heavy and hams at the moment to see if they work better than the torps he started with.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5273	Posted - 2017.02.04 18:08:54 - [57] - Quote And some of us run the Kronos, which is probably the greatest Marauder out there... Well, you have to at least give points for the "Space Police" (whoop, whoop)... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lucian Skord Firesprites 4	Posted - 2017.02.06 01:11:22 - [58] - Quote ive only played in vargur and golem, id say vargur for pve and golem pvp (if u dare )
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5304	Posted - 2017.02.06 01:35:20 - [59] - Quote Lucian Skord wrote: ive only played in vargur and golem, id say vargur for pve and golem pvp (if u dare ) I'd say Kronos if you like armor tanking. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Banksy Rotsuda School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.02.21 15:37:02 - [60] - Quote Does not matter anymore now that bastion is officially having all ewar immunity removed. First was 95% effective but could not get it right and had to revert back to 100% on several tries. Now the word is all ewar immunity will be removed from bastion so it will be just like any other ship in that regard. I for one welcome our new Guristas permajam overlords...

Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5691	Posted - 2017.02.21 16:51:52 - [61] - Quote Source? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 661	Posted - 2017.02.22 06:57:48 - [62] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Source? I think CCP wanted to remove 100% ewar immunity but this didn't hit TQ. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 845	Posted - 2017.02.22 09:36:14 - [63] - Quote Any like, official source? Dev blog? Patch notes? Off hand comment by a dev? A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 662	Posted - 2017.02.22 13:12:10 - [64] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Any like, official source? Dev blog? Patch notes? Off hand comment by a dev? There were testing on SiSi but I can't find it in patch notes. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5698	Posted - 2017.02.22 13:44:20 - [65] - Quote Yeah, but that's from 2016. Anything recent? It's definitely not affecting ECM. It seems to be limited to sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors. The HUD indicates they fail (dark red) but they still seem to be applied. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 845	Posted - 2017.02.22 15:16:03 - [66] - Quote Ok so they want to have sensor damps and tracking disruptor (and I Presume missile disruptors) to have a 5% strength effect on marauders. Since ECM is on or off it seems like ECM is not effected and Marauders should still have a 100% immunity to that. Unless there's anythinig more recent, that's not exactly the same thing as Quote: bastion is officially having all ewar immunity removed. The words 'officially', 'all', 'immunity' and 'removed' does not mean what he thinks it means. Edit: and yea, that's almost a YEAR ago. 10 months. You're gonna have to get something more recent. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5712	Posted - 2017.02.23 01:08:20 - [67] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: Ok so they want to have sensor damps and tracking disruptor (and I Presume missile disruptors) to have a 5% strength effect on marauders. Since ECM is on or off it seems like ECM is not effected and Marauders should still have a 100% immunity to that. The only one I've been able to confirm is tracking disruptors - but I'll test the sensor dampening theory in the next Cargo mission I get (normally blitz that one). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Banksy Rotsuda School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.02.23 16:55:19 - [68] - Quote The issue is still there and big time. Again CCP has confirmed this is working as intended. Ran several missions with bastion activated and had up to 11 tracking disrupts in sansha missions could not hit a single ship, completely jammed out versus guristas for over 90 minutes. Complete crap, RIP marauders.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5765	Posted - 2017.02.24 20:39:06 - [69] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: The issue is still there and big time. Again CCP has confirmed this is working as intended. Ran several missions with bastion activated and had up to 11 tracking disrupts in sansha missions could not hit a single ship, completely jammed out versus guristas for over 90 minutes. Complete crap, RIP marauders. Something is amiss with tracking disruptors. Sensor dampening and ECM haven't changed with respect to Bastion, but tracking disruptors are definitely stronger. What seems to be happening is that the failed attempts (dark red) are in fact still successful. I rarely get tracking disrupted while in Bastion, but activating Bastion does not clear active tracking disruption like it does ECM and sensor dampening. Not selling my Kronos, though. It's still worth every penny. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Wolfgang Jannesen The Evesploratory Society 71	Posted - 2017.02.25 14:53:31 - [70] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: The issue is still there and big time. Again CCP has confirmed this is working as intended. Ran several missions with bastion activated and had up to 11 tracking disrupts in sansha missions could not hit a single ship, completely jammed out versus guristas for over 90 minutes. Complete crap, RIP marauders. I'm sure you'll find a way to get over yourself. They're providing 95% resistance against tracking disrupters but if you've got 11 on you at once, yeah I'm not surprised you can't hit anything.

Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5771	Posted - 2017.02.25 15:07:47 - [71] - Quote No, that's the problem - Bastion isn't providing 95% resistance against tracking disruptors. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
shaun 27 Bulldog Industry 15	Posted - 2017.02.27 12:32:45 - [72] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: No, that's the problem - Bastion isn't providing 95% resistance against tracking disruptors. I have had the same problem in blockade completely tracking disrupted with 2 or 3 elite cruisers. my paladin couldn't hit a thing even with two tracking computers in and speed scripts. I will test see what kronos is like in those missions as that tends to be a bit better tracking then the paladin, otherwise i am going to have to completely rework the fit and use mirco jump drives instead. I have most skills lvl 5 and all including marauders so id say even with 95% resists those elite cruisers got pretty powerful disruptors, reminds me of the days when i didn't use marauders and was flying about in a mach. But it was a nice wake up call after not playing for 6 months + had to ask around what was going on
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5820	Posted - 2017.02.27 12:53:24 - [73] - Quote shaun 27 wrote: I have most skills lvl 5 and all including marauders so id say even with 95% resists those elite cruisers got pretty powerful disruptors, reminds me of the days when i didn't use marauders and was flying about in a mach. But it was a nice wake up call after not playing for 6 months + had to ask around what was going on Same here. Regardless of the number of tracking computers, enhancers and rigs - there's no way to beat the tracking disruption. Hopefully CCP will get around to addressing this sooner as opposed to later. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Endecroix One More Nightmare 36	Posted - 2017.03.05 15:57:22 - [74] - Quote TD is now painful and completely off what one would want. I am not sure this is what CCP intended tbh and I am reporting it as a bug. I am presuming they want people to partake in missions and marauders to have some use outside the less skill intensive pirate battleship.
Endecroix One More Nightmare 36	Posted - 2017.03.05 16:04:41 - [75] - Quote Wolfgang Jannesen wrote: They're providing 95% resistance against tracking disrupters but if you've got 11 on you at once, yeah I'm not surprised you can't hit anything. I think you need to think of the math behind that before being flippant.
Aghira Systech Astromantics Shipyard Inc. 53	Posted - 2017.03.06 10:29:26 - [76] - Quote 95% resistance... 3 TD reduced range from 69km optimal to 9,521 m optimal. Great!... Es wird niemals so viel gelogen wie vor der Wahl, während des Krieges und nach der Jagd. (Otto von Bismarck) english is not my native language.
Henry Plantgenet Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 177	Posted - 2017.03.06 10:33:12 - [77] - Quote Aghira wrote: 95% resistance... 3 TD reduced range from 69km optimal to 9,521 m optimal. Great!... At least your tracking is still good.....
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5899	Posted - 2017.03.06 10:39:25 - [78] - Quote Henry Plantgenet wrote: At least your tracking is still good..... Try it with blasters and let me know how that works out for you... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5906	Posted - 2017.03.07 14:12:37 - [79] - Quote So the best Marauder is (now) the Golem, since the glitch with tracking disruption gimps the other three. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rotho Ataru Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts 5	Posted - 2017.03.07 17:26:48 - [80] - Quote I think we are overreacting a bit. You can usually pop EWAR ships before they get to you, and if they do, drones can take them out easily while you focus battleships until your tracking is back to normal. Worst case scenario, MJD.

Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5934	Posted - 2017.03.07 17:58:20 - [81] - Quote Rotho Ataru wrote: I think we are overreacting a bit. You can usually pop EWAR ships before they get to you, and if they do, drones can take them out easily while you focus battleships until your tracking is back to normal. Worst case scenario, MJD Not when you get simultaneously hit by 3-5 of them - and not when they're sitting 50-60km out. All it takes is one to seriously screw-up your tracking. Fortunately it's just Sansha wreaking havoc at this point... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 307	Posted - 2017.03.07 21:25:20 - [82] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: The issue is still there and big time. Again CCP has confirmed this is working as intended. Ran several missions with bastion activated and had up to 11 tracking disrupts in sansha missions could not hit a single ship, completely jammed out versus guristas for over 90 minutes. Complete crap, RIP marauders. Same here, it's insane, here's screenshot: http://www.netsky.org/eve/2017.03.07.20.54.21.png
Banksy Rotsuda School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.03.07 22:57:13 - [83] - Quote This is working as intended and confirmed by CCP. Bastion will not work against guristas jams either in upcoming patches. It is now just for the resist/weapons buffs. All ewar resists are being reworked as part of marauder rebalancing.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 307	Posted - 2017.03.07 23:25:57 - [84] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: This is working as intended and confirmed by CCP. Bastion will not work against guristas jams either in upcoming patches. It is now just for the resist/weapons buffs. All ewar resists are being reworked as part of marauder rebalancing. Then they need to rework npc's as their jams and EW hit 100% of all the time.
Banksy Rotsuda School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.03.07 23:30:39 - [85] - Quote Spc One wrote: Then they need to rework npc's as their jams and EW hit 100% of all the time. This is the intended result. You are not supposed to be immune to them and must fight through it to gain reward.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5942	Posted - 2017.03.08 12:04:28 - [86] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: This is working as intended and confirmed by CCP. Bastion will not work against guristas jams either in upcoming patches. It is now just for the resist/weapons buffs. All ewar resists are being reworked as part of marauder rebalancing. Stop spouting this nonsense unless you're going to reference an actual quote, post or thread from CCP regarding this. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Banksy Rotsuda School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.03.08 15:01:23 - [87] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Stop spouting this nonsense unless you're going to reference an actual quote, post or thread from CCP regarding this. Don't feed the troll people.
erg cz Broz With Froz Dot Dot Dot 558	Posted - 2017.03.08 15:30:06 - [88] - Quote Spc One wrote: Banksy Rotsuda wrote: The issue is still there and big time. Again CCP has confirmed this is working as intended. Ran several missions with bastion activated and had up to 11 tracking disrupts in sansha missions could not hit a single ship, completely jammed out versus guristas for over 90 minutes. Complete crap, RIP marauders. Same here, it's insane, here's screenshot: http://www.netsky.org/eve/2017.03.07.20.54.21.png MIxed feeling. Like when I see NPC trying hard to web my sniping dominix... Drones do not care about EWAR, auto-targeting missiles just as well... Why you use something much more expensive and apparently less capable , than Rattlesnake or even Dominix? Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP for free!
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5949	Posted - 2017.03.08 17:11:28 - [89] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: Don't feed the troll people. You know what, I don't even care if I get an infraction for this: Go **** yourself. There's a difference between pointing out a potential problem and running around screaming RIP Marauders. All you have to back up your twisted version of events is your personal opinion that this is CCP's end game. Unless you can back that up with some concrete evidence (recent blog, dev update, thread - heck, I'd settle for a tweet at this point), then I'm going to call (and will continue to call) bullsht. ..... There's a limited issue with EW resistance on Marauders that is restricted to tracking disruptors. It does not effect nor extend to sensor dampeners, ECM or target painters. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.*
Anize Oramara The Arch Dashing Dashers 851	Posted - 2017.03.08 19:07:34 - [90] - Quote Hmm multiple pages now of Banksy Rotsuda claiming this is official and yet, still no actual link or anything. Look, if you have something official, anything at all, post it so we can see if this is an actual issue or not. But until then there is only one troll here. A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 684	Posted - 2017.03.08 19:41:31 - [91] - Quote There is no point of nerfing marauders by removing EWAR immunity. They would be useless hulls. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 310	Posted - 2017.03.09 01:10:09 - [92] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: Spc One wrote: Then they need to rework npc's as their jams and EW hit 100% of all the time. This is the intended result. You are not supposed to be immune to them and must fight through it to gain reward. It says on bastion module: Weapon Disruption Resistance Bonus: -95 % What i see in NPC scenario is: 0% Because NPC's will always TD you no matter what. Golem gives you 14 basic gravimetric strength With level 5 skills you get 16.8 gravimetric strength Level 5 skills + bastion gives you 184.8 points (chimera hull has 80 points basic). So NPC's should not be able to jam you with 184.8
Endecroix One More Nightmare 38	Posted - 2017.03.09 09:35:26 - [93] - Quote It's quite clearly not working as intended. I get perma-disrupted by 3 elite cruisers when I should be totally fine 86% of the time without anything sticking to me. I am happy with 95% resists but we are not getting those resists at all. Hell, with 20 elite cruisers on me I should only be disrupted just over a third of the time. I am getting worse than that with 1 or 2 on me. It's clearly buggy, so in answer to the OPs question my answer has now changed to the Golem.
Endecroix One More Nightmare 38	Posted - 2017.03.09 09:38:47 - [94] - Quote erg cz wrote: MIxed feeling. Like when I see NPC trying hard to web my sniping dominix... Drones do not care about EWAR, auto-targeting missiles just as well... Why you use something much more expensive and apparently less capable , than Rattlesnake or even Dominix? So if a bug dropped supercarrier and titan DPS to 1 sec-1 then you would shrug it off and suck it up and then tell people to roll around in lesser ships when there was a perfectly good option that needed a bug fixing?!?
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 688	Posted - 2017.03.09 10:20:47 - [95] - Quote Endecroix wrote: I am happy with 95% resists but we are not getting those resists at all. Hell, with 20 elite cruisers on me I should only be disrupted just over a third of the time. I am getting worse than that with 1 or 2 on me. This is not 95% resist bonus. It seems it is 5% resist bouns. Someone messed the number at CCP I think. Still marauders do not need this change. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5963	Posted - 2017.03.09 13:11:21 - [96] - Quote We welcome our new Sansha overlords... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Banksy Rotsuda School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.03.09 16:31:25 - [97] - Quote Endecroix wrote: It's quite clearly not working as intended. I get perma-disrupted by 3 elite cruisers when I should be totally fine 86% of the time without anything sticking to me. I am happy with 95% resists but we are not getting those resists at all. Hell, with 20 elite cruisers on me I should only be disrupted just over a third of the time. I am getting worse than that with 1 or 2 on me. It's clearly buggy, so in answer to the OPs question my answer has now changed to the Golem. But it IS working just as CCP intended now. Marauder are not to have any ewar immunity or resist going forward.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 688	Posted - 2017.03.09 17:05:08 - [98] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: But it IS working just as CCP intended now. Marauder are not to have any ewar immunity or resist going forward. Wrong, read the bastion module description. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5970	Posted - 2017.03.09 17:40:02 - [99] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: But it IS working just as CCP intended now. Marauder are not to have any ewar immunity or resist going forward. Die in a fire troll. One more idiot to add to the block list... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Endecroix One More Nightmare 39	Posted - 2017.03.09 17:56:33 - [100] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: But it IS working just as CCP intended now. Marauder are not to have any ewar immunity or resist going forward. Where in my post did I say I required or expected total immunity. English - do you do it? Strawman much?

Banksy Rotsuda School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.03.09 20:51:01 - [101] - Quote Endecroix wrote: Where in my post did I say I required or expected total immunity. English - do you do it? Strawman much? There is to be NO ewar resist in bastion going forward. This is how bastion intended to be and now fixed.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 688	Posted - 2017.03.09 21:20:29 - [102] - Quote Banksy Rotsuda wrote: There is to be NO ewar resist in bastion going forward. This is how bastion intended to be and now fixed. Statement based on what? CCP quote maybe? "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5972	Posted - 2017.03.09 21:48:49 - [103] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Statement based on what? CCP quote maybe? Based on absolutely nothing. Don't feed the troll. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Spc One The Chodak Void Alliance 311	Posted - 2017.03.10 12:18:52 - [104] - Quote Quote: Patch notes for YC 119.3 release Modules: Titan Weapon Disruption Resistances now correctly work against NPC Weapon Disruptors. The Bastion module now gives full immunity to Weapon Disruptors (both player and NPC). Yeey, so it was a bug.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5987	Posted - 2017.03.10 17:43:27 - [105] - Quote Spc One wrote: Yeey, so it was a bug. And that was a troll. Make a point to note the troll. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Okumma Kashada Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.03.10 18:27:26 - [106] - Quote Just thought I'd add my .02 isk. I just got my Pallladin today, so you can infer I'm not max skilled. Nothing below four except the marauder skill itself though. My only mission so far was a lvl 4, Attack of the Drones, in Caldari space. From acceptance to completion was exactly 20 minutes. I warped in at 100km. Immediately activated the bastion and started firing. I literally never moved after that, ran my rapper maybe five times, no ship got closer than 43km, and I salvaged the field. Got 10 million in bounty too. This is the only marauder I've flown so I can't compare. I can say if you're only running fours, and the other marauders are as good or better, it doesn't really matter which one you choose. Just pick the one that's either quickest to train into or you think looks coolest, whch ever is most important to you.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5992	Posted - 2017.03.10 20:43:16 - [107] - Quote It really comes down to what region of space you operate out of, the skillset that maximizes your ship potential and last but not least - personal preference. From what I'm finding Marauders really don't offer anything that you can't get in a Pirate or Navy Faction hull - except a bit more cargo space, salvage capability, active tank and EW immunity. Aside from a few missions, looting in general is in the toilet - so the benefit of active salvage component is debatable. They are prohibitively expensive (both in terms of ISk and training), and have very weak EHP. You can tank almost all missions with a few select modules on most battleship hulls - so the extra active tank on Marauders is overkill. The only real benefit with Marauders is that the operational cost (ammunition) is typically 25-50% less (unless you opt for lasers, as crystals are dirt cheap). The thing I probably hate most (yes, there is a short list) with Marauders is Bastion. Having that 60-second timer root you in-place is just poor game mechanics. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.12 12:34:56 - [108] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: From what I'm finding Marauders really don't offer anything that you can't get in a Pirate or Navy Faction hull - except a bit more cargo space, salvage capability, active tank and EW immunity. GÇªand damage application, and sensor strength, andGÇª Okay, in terms of pure damage other hulls are better, nobody pretends it's otherwise. If you min-max for certain PVE activity you're more than likely to find an optimal solution not being a Marauder. But as a one man stop shop, they rule. Quote: Aside from a few missions, looting in general is in the toilet - so the benefit of active salvage component is debatable. Glad you used the word "debatable". In which debate my side is this: when I loot and salvage I put it all in batches and select and sell some of the stuff only from time to time, thus I don't know how much actual money does it bring. but still after cleaning up after given mission quite often I see the total cargo as being valued by EVE as much or higher than the bounty payout from the same. It's not always like that but still it is significant in my subjective statistics. Also price argument is mostly moot. Skills you train once. And the hull pays for itself in a month or two of mission running. Besides, it's not that Marauders are such expensive, it's the price of pirate hulls which tanked (I remember buying my Vindicator for 1bilion+). Quote: The thing I probably hate most (yes, there is a short list) with Marauders is Bastion. Having that 60-second timer root you in-place is just poor game mechanics. It's called a trade off. This is what differentiates a game of rock-paper-scissors type from the-quest-for-I-WIN-button. Also advance planning helps too, but I believe you know it already. Funny fact, recently I realised that most of the time I enter bastion mode not for the tank (though it's nice touch), not for EWAR immunity/resistance (okay, for Blockade I do), but mostly for damage application bonus.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 6015	Posted - 2017.03.12 15:14:14 - [109] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: GÇªand damage application, and sensor strength, andGÇª Okay, in terms of pure damage other hulls are better, nobody pretends it's otherwise. If you min-max for certain PVE activity you're more than likely to find an optimal solution not being a Marauder. But as a one man stop shop, they rule. Other than sensor strength I wouldn't necessarily say damage application is better. On par, perhaps - but not better. I could cite examples like the Navy Raven, Nightmare, Vindicator... hmskrecik wrote: Glad you used the word "debatable". In which debate my side is this: when I loot and salvage I put it all in batches and select and sell some of the stuff only from time to time, thus I don't know how much actual money does it bring. but still after cleaning up after given mission quite often I see the total cargo as being valued by EVE as much or higher than the bounty payout from the same. It's not always like that but still it is significant in my subjective statistics. Well, I've been doing this for quite a while - so I have a pretty good idea what it brings in and which missions are worth salvaging (and for what) and which aren't. You can argue the "one man's junk is another man's treasure" adage, but the reality is that one man's junk is usually just one man's junk. It's been proven that in the vast majority of instances it's more profitable to simply run another mission for the bounties, reward and LP. I'm not going to recommend that one play style is for everyone - that's what makes the game interesting. If you want to salvage missions for a pittance who am I to suggest otherwise. hmskrecik wrote: Also price argument is mostly moot. Skills you train once. And the hull pays for itself in a month or two of mission running. Besides, it's not that Marauders are such expensive, it's the price of pirate hulls which tanked (I remember buying my Vindicator for 1bilion+). It's a billion+ ISK hull with less raw EHP than most T1 battleships. Pirate Faction hulls are super cheap now so the cost comparison isn't a valid argument anymore. I could also add that because of this Marauders are typically a gank magnet, but I digress. hmskrecik wrote: It's called a trade off. This is what differentiates a game of rock-paper-scissors type from the-quest-for-I-WIN-button. Also advance planning helps too, but I believe you know it already. Yes, I do realize it's a trade-off. That doesn't mean that having to anchor your ship still doesn't royally suck. Maybe you like being stationary in most of your missions. I prefer fluid movement. hmskrecik wrote: Funny fact, recently I realised that most of the time I enter bastion mode not for the tank (though it's nice touch), not for EWAR immunity/resistance (okay, for Blockade I do), but mostly for damage application bonus. There's no damage application bonus - there's a range bonus. Entering Bastion increases your range and your potential damage (excluding the Golem). It doesn't improve tracking, it doesn't improve target painting and it doesn't reduce target speed or signature radius. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.12 17:50:51 - [110] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: I could cite examples like the Navy Raven, Nightmare, Vindicator... You can't cite Vindicator. At quite reasonable ranges when you're at optimal with Kronos, you're at falloff with Vindi, and subsequently when with the former you're at falloff, with latter you're at deep falloff. If it's not a damage application issue then I don't know what is. That being said, in my experience Nightmare and Paladin are on par in this regard. Quote: It's been proven that in the vast majority of instances it's more profitable to simply run another mission for the bounties, reward and LP. Which proof I suppose didn't take into account tanking LP market, which you yourself have been lamenting in GD, haven't you? :) Quote: It's a billion+ ISK hull with less raw EHP than most T1 battleships. Pirate Faction hulls are super cheap now so the cost comparison isn't a valid argument anymore. I could also add that because of this Marauders are typically a gank magnet, but I digress. What EHP has to do with the matter? Esp. with active ++bertank. And being a gank magnet is rather a function of fit pimpage, not of the price of the hull itself. Quote: Yes, I do realize it's a trade-off. That doesn't mean that having to anchor your ship still doesn't royally suck. Maybe you like being stationary in most of your missions. I prefer fluid movement. Let's agree to disagree here. I have no issue with being stationary for a while.

Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 6026	Posted - 2017.03.12 18:08:36 - [111] - Quote The Vindicator has a 90% web which allows it to hit any most short-range targets with rails. The extra mid slot gives it roughly the same range as a Kronos when not in Bastion. Damage (not including a full complement of sentry drones) far exceeds the Kronos. As for ganking, Marauders are routinely shot just to pad killboards (bling or not). The Machariel is far superior to the Vargur in every respect - not too mention that it has 4x the drone capacity and can mitigate a large percentage of damage just by moving. I won't even touch on the superior war speed and maneuverability. Every PvE activity you can do in a Vargur I can do better in my Machariel. The Rattlesnake can deal almost twice the effective DPS of a Golem. I could go on with more examples but what would be the point? When Pirate hulls were a billion ISK it wasn't even a consideration, but you can get most for less than a Faction Navy hull now... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.12 22:23:28 - [112] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: The Vindicator has a 90% web which allows it to hit any most short-range targets with rails. The extra mid slot gives it roughly the same range as a Kronos when not in Bastion. Damage (not including a full complement of sentry drones) far exceeds the Kronos. With the exception of couple of missions the web will be mostly unused, so it's the mid slot wasted. With such midslot or not, Vindicator does not have hull 50% falloff bonus, which is why Kronos can snipe with Antimatter and which is why there is no Blaster Vindi for missions running. Also using sentry drones does not mix well with your idea of fluid movement. And to the rest of your arguments, I'm not sure what is the thesis you're defending. If it's the one that pirate ships perform better than Marauders then you're barking wrong tree as I'm all with you there. Marauders however have their place too: even if worse they still perform very well and if anything, they are just more convenient to use. Whether this is good enough reason to use these ships, it's for anyone to decide by themselves.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 6041	Posted - 2017.03.13 02:07:53 - [113] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: With the exception of couple of missions the web will be mostly unused, so it's the mid slot wasted. With such midslot or not, Vindicator does not have hull 50% falloff bonus, which is why Kronos can snipe with Antimatter and which is why there is no Blaster Vindi for missions running. Also using sentry drones does not mix well with your idea of fluid movement. And to the rest of your arguments, I'm not sure what is the thesis you're defending. If it's the one that pirate ships perform better than Marauders then you're barking wrong tree as I'm all with you there. Marauders however have their place too: even if worse they still perform very well and if anything, they are just more convenient to use. Whether this is good enough reason to use these ships, it's for anyone to decide by themselves. With a 90% web you can even hit frigates with rails and sentry drones, so there is that. My point is that it's a single module which still leaves you with the same number of mid slots as the Kronos. Yes, the Kronos does have the extra falloff - which is typically overkill if you're running rails. What I don't like about the Vindicator is the lack of utility highs so you need to utilize rigs to augment your drones. I just think that the for the required skill training and cost Marauders are no longer the end-all be-all for mission running. Especially when they got hit with the refit nerf while in Bastion I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 689	Posted - 2017.03.13 06:46:41 - [114] - Quote Don't forget about marauders price. Then cost 10 times than faction BS to manufacture. I can have few rattlesnakes for a one marauder. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Sentenced 1989 209	Posted - 2017.03.13 12:45:27 - [115] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: The Machariel is far superior to the Vargur in every respect - not too mention that it has 4x the drone capacity and can mitigate a large percentage of damage just by moving. I won't even touch on the superior war speed and maneuverability. Every PvE activity you can do in a Vargur I can do better in my Machariel. I have to semi agree with this. There are few instances where Vargur is better (Sansha L4 Blockade due to targets spawning at 90km and 70km diagonally from entry position - so positioning at one spawn point puts the other one at +130km and final Caldari epic arc mission with 100% jamm chance from 2 elite cruiser). However, I must admit, after a year of Bastion Vargur I was having way to much fun in Machariel. A bit less range, but pulse MWD and drop sentry when standing still beats Vargurs damage and because you can move more easily you don't care that much about those few km range from Vargurs bastion. And yea, Mach has this nice niche that you can outrun frigates / webbers. Only thing is - if you don't know how to use Machariel and how gun tracking works, stick to AB instead of MWD because wrong direction of MWD will make your own speed outtrack your guns :D And one other plus is if you want to push your ship - you don't go cap stable and having crappy connection and getting socket closed on Vargur in bastion which is not currently running booster is fun to say at least. The Incursion Guild Epic Arc Guide
Sentenced 1989 209	Posted - 2017.03.13 12:50:00 - [116] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Don't forget about marauders price. Then cost 10 times than faction BS to manufacture. I can have few rattlesnakes for a one marauder. How is that relevant? I can have multiple 100's rifters for price of one :D They also do more dps then one, but then again how are you going to pilot it? The Incursion Guild Epic Arc Guide
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 689	Posted - 2017.03.13 13:52:09 - [117] - Quote Sentenced 1989 wrote: How is that relevant? I can have multiple 100's rifters for price of one :D They also do more dps then one, but then again how are you going to pilot it? Everything you posted on your previous post. Why bother with high priced marauder when faction BS can do it the same or even better. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.13 16:58:10 - [118] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: With a 90% web you can even hit frigates with rails and sentry drones, so there is that. My point is that it's a single module which still leaves you with the same number of mid slots as the Kronos. Yes, the Kronos does have the extra falloff - which is typically overkill if you're running rails. I, on the other side, quite often shoot in falloff. Especially with Javelin ammo, be it when I don't want to waste time switching, or when taking advantage of better tracking. Quote: I just think that the for the required skill training and cost Marauders are no longer the end-all be-all for mission running. Especially when they got hit with the refit nerf while in Bastion So Marauders have been downgraded from must-use to pick-your-poison category. How does it make it bad game design?
hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.13 16:59:36 - [119] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Don't forget about marauders price. Then cost 10 times than faction BS to manufacture. I can have few rattlesnakes for a one marauder. Yeah? And how many of each you lose a month when running missions?
Banksy Rotsuda School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 0	Posted - 2017.03.13 18:53:49 - [120] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: I just think that the for the required skill training and cost Marauders are no longer the end-all be-all for mission running. Especially when they got hit with the refit nerf while in Bastion We are definately in agreement here. Marauders should be removed from game as they are no longer needed.

Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 690	Posted - 2017.03.13 20:19:09 - [121] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: Don't forget about marauders price. Then cost 10 times than faction BS to manufacture. I can have few rattlesnakes for a one marauder. Yeah? And how many of each you lose a month when running missions? So, you are telling me that you constatly losing faction BS to rats? There is no reason they should cost that much to manufacture them. Salvaging and tractor beam are most of the time useless. Bastion has 1min cd. They are made for range dps - MJD bonus and range bonuses in bastion. Because above they are very overtanked. DPS are not the toppest - they are T2 hulls. Price "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.13 21:29:51 - [122] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: So, you are telling me that you constatly losing faction BS to rats? I'm not telling that. I ask how many are you losing because you are bringing this pricing argument. Quote: Salvaging and tractor beam are most of the time useless. On the contrary, tractor is quite useful. Salvager is debatable though. Besides, nobody forces you to use either. There are other things you can fit into those highs. Quote: Bastion has 1min cd. They are made for range dps - MJD bonus and range bonuses in bastion. Because above they are very overtanked. DPS are not the toppest - they are T2 hulls. Pice And your point is?
Sentenced 1989 210	Posted - 2017.03.13 21:36:21 - [123] - Quote and btw, if you read patch notes for next patch The Bastion module now gives full immunity to Weapon Disruptors (both player and NPC). The Incursion Guild Epic Arc Guide
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 690	Posted - 2017.03.14 08:12:29 - [124] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: I'm not telling that. I ask how many are you losing because you are bringing this pricing argument. I'm bringing price argument because we can have same or better performance for much less price. hmskrecik wrote: On the contrary, tractor is quite useful. Salvager is debatable though. Besides, nobody forces you to use either. There are other things you can fit into those highs. Tractor is useful? Debatable. Did you ever try mobile tractor unit? hmskrecik wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: Bastion has 1min cd. They are made for range dps - MJD bonus and range bonuses in bastion. Because above they are very overtanked. DPS are not the toppest - they are T2 hulls. Pice And your point is? Overpriced (because of manufacturing cost), overtanked (when used with MJD+range dps), with useless bonuses (tractor bonus is useless with MJD most of time) , sometimes annoying micromanagment (TPs on Golem) T2 hull for nobody. It's faster to get into faction BS and they are cheaper. Marauders need to be cheaper and they need to be reworked. Bastion is the oppossite to marauding... The only things they do go are active tanking and ewar resistance, hard to say if it justify the price. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Rotho Ataru The Anti-Meme Initiative Exponential Dysfunction 5	Posted - 2017.03.14 09:15:31 - [125] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Overpriced (because of manufacturing cost), overtanked (when used with MJD+range dps), with useless bonuses (tractor bonus is useless with MJD most of time) , sometimes annoying micromanagment (TPs on Golem) T2 hull for nobody. It's faster to get into faction BS and they are cheaper. Marauders need to be cheaper and they need to be reworked. Bastion is the oppossite to marauding... The only things they do go are active tanking and ewar resistance, hard to say if it justify the price. Price: Who cares? If you aren't losing your ships, price isn't a big deal either way. It's a one time price. Presumably you'll make far more than the price of the ship in the long run. ISK/hr matters more than a one-time price. Overtanked: If you feel overtanked, use fewer tank mods. Bastion module is a fantastic high slot tank mod that frees up other slots for damage and utility. After switching from faction BS to Marauder, my life is a lot easier. The only thing that sucks is the 1 min timer on bastion. You gotta make sure you don't forget to turn it off as you're getting ready to move again or else you lose a minute. But that's trivial.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 690	Posted - 2017.03.14 12:18:12 - [126] - Quote Rotho Ataru wrote: Price: Who cares? If you aren't losing your ships, price isn't a big deal either way. It's a one time price. Presumably you'll make far more than the price of the ship in the long run. ISK/hr matters more than a one-time price. ISK/hr will be better in most cases in faction BS. Please look at Machariel, and return rate is better in faction BS. Rotho Ataru wrote: Overtanked: If you feel overtanked, use fewer tank mods. Bastion module is a fantastic high slot tank mod that frees up other slots for damage and utility. It has nothing to do what i'm feeling. The bonus we get to active tanking is not necessary with MJD bonus we get also. It's like devs don't know what to do with this hulls. I think they don't know what marauder means in a first place. Rotho Ataru wrote: After switching from faction BS to Marauder, my life is a lot easier. The only thing that sucks is the 1 min timer on bastion. You gotta make sure you don't forget to turn it off as you're getting ready to move again or else you lose a minute. But that's trivial. I'm happy for you. My experience is opposite. Wrecks were not in range to pull them by tractors, bastion on cd, not so good dps compared to faction BS. The only good thing is ewar immunity but I have no problem with sanshas, BRs and drones in my rattle so it's situational (was good in caldari space in golem, but I never run them in rattle). They are fine hulls in some situations but I don't think they should cost the price of a carrier. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Takh Meir'noen Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 23	Posted - 2017.03.14 12:20:19 - [127] - Quote If you prefer to full clear and loot (I do, as I find that blitzing makes me want to claw my eyes out) then a Marauder is fantastic. I love my tachyon paladin, and I'll never get rid of it. But I'm not sticking my head in the sand and claiming that a Machariel isn't in the Top 2 for Blitzing, either. Recon 1: Interceptor. Dread Pirate Scarlet: Tachyon Paladin one shots Scarlet every pocket. MWD to next gate. Pirate Invation: MJD to carrier wreck, keep flying away from it. Kill group 5 when it spawns. The Assault: MWD to gate, MJD to Group 3 and blap them. Stop the Thief: Align out. Blap Overlord (no need to MWD). Blap Shadow. Tractor wreck & container. Cargo Delivery: Interceptor Right Hand of Zazzmatazz: Kill Zor and the ships by him. Tractor Zor's wreck. Recon 2: Interceptor. Rogue Slave Trader 1: Kill Slave Pen, use 48k tractor on container. Rogue Slave Trader 2: Blap Sansha Slavers. I agree that the Machariel warps faster than a Paladin. I disagree that a Marauder is pointless.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 6060	Posted - 2017.03.14 13:06:01 - [128] - Quote Recon 1-3: Hecate (with a shield buffer tank it easily survives the last mission). Cargo Delivery: Hecate Anomaly 1-2: Hecate (just add blasters). Stop the Thief: Buy Reports (uber-cheap) and then you never have to tractor the wreck. Right Hand of Zazzmatazz: Don't forget to destroy the HQ. Damsel in Distress: Destroy the Pleasure Dome, tractor the two containers. Kill Zor (optional). And yes, blitzing makes me occasionally want to claw my eyes out as well. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
xOmGx Order of Order SOLAR FLEET 4	Posted - 2017.03.14 16:31:52 - [129] - Quote Depending on region where you do missions, i will say that for most missions i LOVE PALADIN P A L A D i N <3 Endlsess (endless? or CCP did broke somethign again?) T1 ammo (perfect emergency backup) Lovely Optimal range (69km in bastion with Multi lenses on Tach T2 yeey+2xTC) Tho for few missions Kronos would do better job (Damsel in Distress)
Rotho Ataru The Anti-Meme Initiative Exponential Dysfunction 5	Posted - 2017.03.14 16:37:38 - [130] - Quote Takh Meir'noen wrote: If you prefer to full clear and loot (I do, as I find that blitzing makes me want to claw my eyes out) then a Marauder is fantastic. I love my tachyon paladin, and I'll never get rid of it. But I'm not sticking my head in the sand and claiming that a Machariel isn't in the Top 2 for Blitzing, either. Recon 1: Interceptor. Dread Pirate Scarlet: Tachyon Paladin one shots Scarlet every pocket. MWD to next gate. Pirate Invation: MJD to carrier wreck, keep flying away from it. Kill group 5 when it spawns. The Assault: MWD to gate, MJD to Group 3 and blap them. Stop the Thief: Align out. Blap Overlord (no need to MWD). Blap Shadow. Tractor wreck & container. Cargo Delivery: Interceptor Right Hand of Zazzmatazz: Kill Zor and the ships by him. Tractor Zor's wreck. Recon 2: Interceptor. Rogue Slave Trader 1: Kill Slave Pen, use 48k tractor on container. Rogue Slave Trader 2: Blap Sansha Slavers. I agree that the Machariel warps faster than a Paladin. I disagree that a Marauder is pointless. Yeah I think that's it. I prefer full clears myself. Blitzing is too mind numbing. And if you're actually popping ships, Marauders beat the other ships in terms of efficiency. Seems like most people use their marauders are snipers though. I use the tank of my paladin to fit Mega Pulses, then just sit in the middle of rats in the 25-50 range and pop them quickly. That's why I thought they were called Marauders - because they are meant to be in the fray. The range bonus on the bastion module makes pulse lasers hit a perfect sweet spot. And obviously at short range, I typically have little issues with my tractor not being in range of what I need to loot for mission complete :P The MJD bonus I typically don't use but I keep have it on hand. MWD is more useful for me since I don't snipe.

hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.14 17:56:52 - [131] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: I'm bringing price argument because we can have same or better performance for much less price. A Marauder pays for itself in two months of relaxed mission running, and I'm being conservative here. Past that time the investment cost is irrelevant. Jeremiah Saken wrote: Overpriced (because of manufacturing cost), overtanked (when used with MJD+range dps), with useless bonuses (tractor bonus is useless with MJD most of time) , sometimes annoying micromanagment (TPs on Golem) T2 hull for nobody. It's faster to get into faction BS and they are cheaper. Marauders need to be cheaper and they need to be reworked. Bastion is the oppossite to marauding... The only things they do go are active tanking and ewar resistance, hard to say if it justify the price. Decide whether you want to talk about using MJD for range or about having good performance, you cannot have both. Tractor IS useful. If it isn't to you, that does not prove anything yet. Yes I use mobile tractor, it has its uses and they are not cases I have a module fit on my Marauder for. Tank is perfectly fine when I'm being actually shot at, which is almost always because I prefer good performance. The price is the price of T2 battleship and it's the same as it always has been since I started playing this game. If you have problem with T2 economy go whine about T2 economy. I'm not commenting on Golem because it's the only Marauder I cannot use. Paladin and Vargur are fine. Kronos is godly.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 690	Posted - 2017.03.14 18:55:11 - [132] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: Tractor IS useful. If it isn't to you, that does not prove anything yet. Tell that to guristas rats stay out of the range. Tractor isn't usefull, just because it is to you does not prove anything. We can do this all day... hmskrecik wrote: Decide whether you want to talk about using MJD for range or about having good performance, you cannot have both. Bastion gives you range bonus, MJD gets you away from rats and has time bonus. 1+1=2. I don't force you to play in sniper mode, I played brawler golem myself, but when life give you bonuses and you don't use them you are playing suboptimal. Ergo when playing in sniper mode the ability to tank so huge amount of dps is unnecessary. hmskrecik wrote: The price is the price of T2 battleship and it's the same as it always has been since I started playing this game. If you have problem with T2 economy go whine about T2 economy. it doesn't has to stay that way, and it has nothing to do with economy. CCP adjusted escalation some time ago and faction ships are overfarmed. Now we can buy faction hull for less than T2 hulls and yes I have problem with that because they obsolete everything below them in terms of price and performance. Chill hmskrecik. Just because you think marauders are the best doesn't mean others will agree. I did amazing things with my rattle and I have comparison because I flew every caldari BS but Widow. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 6070	Posted - 2017.03.14 20:59:40 - [133] - Quote Mobile Tractor Units are useful in a Marauder (particularly the 'Packrat' or 'Magpie'). I actually wouldn't bother with anything less than a Packrat as it will slow down salvaging as you go. T2 tractor beams (only) and T2 salvagers are also useful, but a flight of salvage drones set to auto-salvage (or individual targets) is almost as useful as the salvager module (and it frees up a high slot). In terms of the Marauder being expensive by comparison (I've already expressed my thoughts on this), while I know prices fluctuate Pirate Faction hulls have been dropping in price for well over a year and I don't think anything is going to abruptly reverse this trend. If they gave Marauders full T2 resists and toned down Bastion (or replaced it with something else entirely that didn't pigeon-hole it to remaining stationary) I think Marauder hull price would be a moot point. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.14 22:30:50 - [134] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: hmskrecik wrote: Tractor IS useful. If it isn't to you, that does not prove anything yet. Tell that to guristas rats stay out of the range. Tractor isn't usefull, just because it is to you does not prove anything. We can do this all day... Sorta, kinda. To show that something is needed you need to demonstrate that at least one person needs it. To show that somethign is not needed, you need to demonstrate that NO ONE needs it. Good luck. Also you may have gotten an impression that I use tractor+salvager for what Noctis does better. I don't. Jeremiah Saken wrote: Bastion gives you range bonus, MJD gets you away from rats and has time bonus. 1+1=2. I don't force you to play in sniper mode, I played brawler golem myself, but when life give you bonuses and you don't use them you are playing suboptimal. Ergo when playing in sniper mode the ability to tank so huge amount of dps is unnecessary. Nowhere is being written that you have to use all bonuses at the same time. Want to take advantage from MJD and range bonus? Go for it. But in such scenario you have no grounds to expect any decent performance, about which performance you are so heartbroken. Jeremiah Saken wrote: CCP adjusted escalation some time ago and faction ships are overfarmed. Now we can buy faction hull for less than T2 hulls and yes I have problem with that because they obsolete everything below them in terms of price and performance. Nothing is obsoleted in terms of price and the notion of price obsoleting in terms of performance is utter bullshit. Let me break it down to you. If you already own given ship, the price you bought it for does not matter. Think about it for a while. This is what every economist will tell you. It's called sunken cost. These money are already spent and do not exist for you anymore. Now, if you don't own a ship but are about to, there are roughly two possibilities. 1. You are going to buy this ship for the first time. It's now up to you to evaluate if the price is worth the benefit you will get from using this ship. If yes, you buy this ship for this price. If no, you don't buy it. End of story. 2. You had this ship, you lost it, you want to replace it. This is why I asked you how often do you lose your ships because in this case the price is very important indeed. And regarding this "obsoleted in performance" the only change I am aware of which happened in recent years was this removal of refitting while in bastion mode. I miss it too but let's be honest, that was "I WIN" button. Jeremiah Saken wrote: Chill hmskrecik. Just because you think marauders are the best doesn't mean others will agree. I did amazing things with my rattle and I have comparison because I flew every caldari BS but Widow. I am chilled, I just cannot stand stupid arguments. If you went a page or two back you would find my post where I explicitly state that I do agree that pirate battleships perform better than Marauders. I'm okay with that fact. I'm not okay with the conclusion that Marauders are worthless because of that. I flew all three pairs: Vindicator/Kronos, Machariel/Vargur and Nightmare/Paladin. Every this ship is great in some way (and I bought all those pirate hulls when they were still in 1bil range) and tell you what? In each case I eventually settled with a Marauder. Despite them having a little worse performance. They just suit me better.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 6081	Posted - 2017.03.15 00:29:05 - [135] - Quote Yes, if you already own a Marauder the hull cost is moot. I'm not saying they're worthless - just outclassed, overpriced and not as effective as their Pirate brethren (especially considering the massive skill training required). And maybe that's by design, but I can't help but be a little disappointed. Or maybe it's that missiles still suck, heavy drones still suck and the most exciting and riveting form of gameplay in a Marauder is sitting there while in Bastion. Or perhaps it's also because they could each use another mid and low slot, full T2 resists (we're nerfing T3Cs right away anyway) and toning down Bastion. Or maybe (just maybe) PvE has become really stale and Marauders aren't well-suited for roaming, exploration and PvP (they tend to scream "loot pinata" when appearing on Dscan). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 234	Posted - 2017.03.15 02:06:55 - [136] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Yes, if you already own a Marauder the hull cost is moot. I'm not saying they're worthless - just outclassed, overpriced and not as effective as their Pirate brethren (especially considering the massive skill training required). And maybe that's by design, but I can't help but be a little disappointed. Or maybe it's that missiles still suck, heavy drones still suck and the most exciting and riveting form of gameplay in a Marauder is sitting there while in Bastion. Or perhaps it's also because they could each use another mid and low slot, full T2 resists (we're nerfing T3Cs right away anyway) and toning down Bastion. Or maybe (just maybe) PvE has become really stale and Marauders aren't well-suited for roaming, exploration and PvP (they tend to scream "loot pinata" when appearing on Dscan). Yeah. With the exception of pirate hull prices and refiting when bastion all what you described was true for at least two years. And now it is a problem. What took you so long?
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 690	Posted - 2017.03.15 08:44:52 - [137] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: 1. You are going to buy this ship for the first time. It's now up to you to evaluate if the price is worth the benefit you will get from using this ship. If yes, you buy this ship for this price. If no, you don't buy it. End of story. See, you finally got it. There is no reason IMHO to choose marauder over BS faction hull with current state of marauders if you want to buy a hull and fly them in L4 missions. Frankly for that price I would expect them to be way better than current form. hmskrecik wrote: I am chilled, I just cannot stand stupid arguments. If you went a page or two back you would find my post where I explicitly state that I do agree that pirate battleships perform better than Marauders. I'm okay with that fact. I'm not okay with the conclusion that Marauders are worthless because of that. I flew all three pairs: Vindicator/Kronos, Machariel/Vargur and Nightmare/Paladin. Every this ship is great in some way (and I bought all those pirate hulls when they were still in 1bil range) and tell you what? In each case I eventually settled with a Marauder. Despite them having a little worse performance. They just suit me better. Bolded sentence mean in terms of price/performance marauders are worthless to me. I can do L4 better and cheaper in faction BS. Not enough chill hmskrecik. Have a beer or six. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 235	Posted - 2017.03.15 15:49:23 - [138] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: hmskrecik wrote: 1. You are going to buy this ship for the first time. It's now up to you to evaluate if the price is worth the benefit you will get from using this ship. If yes, you buy this ship for this price. If no, you don't buy it. End of story. See, you finally got it. There is no reason IMHO to choose marauder over BS faction hull Sadly you haven't got it. I state that I have reasons to buy and use a Marauder. Jeremiah Saken wrote: [....] with current state of marauders if you want to buy a hull and fly them in L4 missions. Frankly for that price I would expect them to be way better than current form. Funny you comment on game balance issues without doing your own homework. I just looked at prices in my region and they are as follows (slightly rounded for better typing):: Incursus - 350 000 Daredevil - 58 000 000 Enyo - 27 000 000 Thorax - 9 000 000 Vigilant - 203 000 000 Deimos - 209 000 000 Megathron - 139 000 000 Vindicator - 358 000 000 Kronos - 1 175 000 000 See the discrepancy here? Hint: the problem is not with Marauders. Jeremiah Saken wrote: hmskrecik wrote: I flew all three pairs: Vindicator/Kronos, Machariel/Vargur and Nightmare/Paladin. Every this ship is great in some way (and I bought all those pirate hulls when they were still in 1bil range) and tell you what? In each case I eventually settled with a Marauder. Despite them having a little worse performance. They just suit me better. Bolded sentence mean in terms of price/performance marauders are worthless to me. I can do L4 better and cheaper in faction BS. Good for you. Feel free to contract to me all your Marauders. At the price you think they are worth of course.
Drake Aihaken CODE.d 1	Posted - 2017.03.16 00:59:21 - [139] - Quote If you made the decision to train into a Marauder... And the cost of the hull or training was moot... And you didn't care whether or not a Pirate Faction battleship would outperform it... And you were interested in full clear/salvaging and not blitzing... Then your choice of Marauders is down to three: GÇó Paladin (best in Amarr space and against Blood, Sansha and Drones) GÇó Vargur (best all-around Marauder, weakest against Guristas) GÇó Kronos (best in Caldari-Gallente space, best against Mercs, Serpentis, Guristas) All three can be armor-tanked (the Vargur less so); the Vargur can also be shield-tanked. In terms of armament: GÇó Paladin can be run effectively with either Mega Pulse Lasers (Scorch) or Tachyons (Faction MF) GÇó Kronos can be run effectively with either Neutron Blaster Cannons (Null/Void) or 425mm Railguns (Faction AM) GÇó Vargur can only really be run with 800mm Autocannons (Faction EMP/Phased Plasma/Fusion, Hail, Barrage) Insofar as the fit is concerned: GÇó Bastion Module I, 2x Small Tractor Beam II and an Auto Targeting System II or Salvager II GÇó Faction or Deadspace 500MN MWD, 2x Range-scripted Tracking Computer II GÇó Resolution-scripted Sensor Booster II or Large Micro Jump Drive GÇó 3x T2 or Faction damage modules, Damage Control II Rigs are very much personal preference at this point (more tracking, range, cap stability, tank or warp speed). The Golem has been intentionally left out of this list. It is bar none the worst Marauder for PvE as cruise missiles and torpedoes have horrible damage application, lengthy delay to impact, the least amount of EHP/tank and requires substantial additional training into electronic warfare for Target Painters. It is not effective at shooting anything smaller than battlecruisers and you will lose a lot of time micromanaging target painters, lost DPS against cruisers, massive lost DPS against frigates and volleys in transit. It is almost extremely difficult to volley smaller ships from a room with missiles once they start moving. Every other Marauder will far-outperform the Golem at full mission clears - in no small part because they can apply instant damage across large distances - but also because guns receive penetrating, smashing and wrecking bonuses. The Kronos and Vargur also have 50mbit of drone bandwidth and can field a flight of medium drones in addition to light drones.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 236	Posted - 2017.03.16 06:19:42 - [140] - Quote Amen to that. With this addition: it pays off to support drones, if only slightly. On all my Marauders in highs there is Drone Link for range and on my Kronos there is Drone Damage Amp in lows. Also I Intentionally dedicate one mid slot on each ship as utility to be freely replaced with whatever is necessary for given mission. On some missions you need propulsion, on others it would be completely unused and thus Omni Tracking would be more useful, for example. The choice is purely personal here.

Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 690	Posted - 2017.03.16 06:39:12 - [141] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: Funny you comment on game balance issues without doing your own homework. I just looked at prices in my region and they are as follows (slightly rounded for better typing):: Incursus - 350 000 Daredevil - 58 000 000 Enyo - 27 000 000 Thorax - 9 000 000 Vigilant - 203 000 000 Deimos - 209 000 000 Megathron - 139 000 000 Vindicator - 358 000 000 Kronos - 1 175 000 000 See the discrepancy here? Hint: the problem is not with Marauders. You just proven my point. T2 BS (marauders) are way overpriced and they are overpriced because of the manufacturing cost. Overfarmed explo sites won't help with it either. hmskrecik wrote: Good for you. Feel free to contract to me all your Marauders. At the price you think they are worth of course. I don't have any. Sold my golem, bought 4 rattlesnakes and put them in four corners of the hisec. "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville If you need a scout mail me.
Drake Aihaken CODE.d 5	Posted - 2017.03.16 08:22:53 - [142] - Quote hmskrecik wrote: Amen to that. With this addition: it pays off to support drones, if only slightly. On all my Marauders in highs there is Drone Link for range and on my Kronos there is Drone Damage Amp in lows. Also I Intentionally dedicate one mid slot on each ship as utility to be freely replaced with whatever is necessary for given mission. On some missions you need propulsion, on others it would be completely unused and thus Omni Tracking would be more useful, for example. The choice is purely personal here. I usually don't augment my drone range as I have 57km already and find that the more distance I give them - the more they tend to hang themselves with it (nothing wrong with that setup though). The Auto Targeting II system is useful to give you a passive 11 targets when not in Bastion (not needed with Advanced Target Management V). A single Salvager II can also really speed up salvaging in conjunction with salvage drones. Having a dedicated swappable mid slot is a good idea. For my blaster Kronos the sensor booster is swapped out for a Large Micro Jump Drive on a few missions. I find that the Deadspace MWD and pair of range-scripted tracking computers are indispensable, though - as I often need it to close 10-20km for a better firing solution.
hmskrecik TransMine Group 237	Posted - 2017.03.16 17:22:39 - [143] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: hmskrecik wrote: Funny you comment on game balance issues without doing your own homework. I just looked at prices in my region and they are as follows (slightly rounded for better typing):: Incursus - 350 000 Daredevil - 58 000 000 Enyo - 27 000 000 Thorax - 9 000 000 Vigilant - 203 000 000 Deimos - 209 000 000 Megathron - 139 000 000 Vindicator - 358 000 000 Kronos - 1 175 000 000 See the discrepancy here? Hint: the problem is not with Marauders. You just proven my point. T2 BS (marauders) are way overpriced and they are overpriced because of the manufacturing cost. Overfarmed explo sites won't help with it either. I don't think so but I'm out of rational arguments and I will not got down to ad personam thus to me this discussion has run its course. Fly safe.
Drake Aihaken CODE.d 64	Posted - 2017.03.17 04:41:39 - [144] - Quote Fly what you enjoy, fly for fun and don't sweat the ISK/hr. We're all basically space-poor anyway...
Myriad Blaze Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda 457	Posted - 2017.03.19 03:00:19 - [145] - Quote Drake Aihaken wrote: The Golem has been intentionally left out of this list. It is bar none the worst Marauder for PvE as cruise missiles and torpedoes have horrible damage application, lengthy delay to impact, the least amount of EHP/tank and requires substantial additional training into electronic warfare for Target Painters. It is not effective at shooting anything smaller than battlecruisers and you will lose a lot of time micromanaging target painters, lost DPS against cruisers, massive lost DPS against frigates and volleys in transit. It is almost extremely difficult to volley smaller ships from a room with missiles once they start moving. Every other Marauder will far-outperform the Golem at full mission clears - in no small part because they can apply instant damage across large distances - but also because guns receive penetrating, smashing and wrecking bonuses. Apparently my experience with the Golem is a lot more pleasant than yours. I don't have the skills to fly a Kronos or Vargur, but I can fly a Golem and a Paladin equally well. Actually my skills for the Paladin are somewhat superior, because my gunnery skills are substantially better than my missile skills (at the moment). Nevertheless I get better overall results with a Golem. Damage application is something you can train and fit for. While there is some delay to impact, I still hit targets within 120km (or so) before the launcher is ready to fire again. I don't think I ever lost a single volley within this range. Maybe the Golem has the least amount of EHP/tank of the Marauders, but this doesn't matter at all since my omnitanked Golem is way overtanked for PvE anyway. Yes a Target Painter is necessary imho. But I don't think the skill requirements are a good argument against flying a Golem. Likewise you could say that a Golem is bad, because it's the only Marauder that requires missile skills. Also micromanaging a single Target Painter (that's all I need) is a non-issue. Effectiveness against cruisers and frigates depends on choosing the correct ammo. Oneshotting cruisers is possible. To be able to oneshot frigates you usually need to switch to Precision. With regard to effectiveness the Paladin outperforms the Golem against targets which are weak against EM/therm and at range. However, if you go against Guristas, Serpentis or Angel Cartel for example, the Paladin sucks and is nowhere near as effective as a Golem (not to mention the performance against targets which are close). In my experience (largely from running missions in Caldari, Amarr and Ammatar space) the Golem is better overall by quite a bit. However, I'm aware that the style of running missions has significant effect on how you experience ship performance. Personally I dislike leaving stuff behind, so usually I clear, loot and salvage everything (yes, I know that that's not the most efficient way to run missions). Since I'm lazy my preferred method is warp in, hit Bastion, launch MTU, aggro everything (getting them closer to speed up looting), clear the grid. Furthermore I'd say that fitting a Golem is more difficult compared to fitting a Paladin, which could be held against the Golem. The ideal fit (for me) costs roughly 700m ISK (estimated price in the fitting window). It is perfect for PvE imho, but the bling might draw some attention to it. Since ganker presence in my area seems to have increased lately, I switched to a different fit, though. I sacrificed some damage application and the third Salvager to bring up the tank to near PvP standard while using cheaper mods (which require more CPU; roughly 350m ISK for the whole fit; and the fit is still good enough).
Casina Lumine Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2017.03.20 14:19:18 - [146] - Quote Those of you using the Vargur - how do you fit it against Serpentis with their annoying sensor dampening?
Mina Sebiestar Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate 1151	Posted - 2017.03.20 16:00:57 - [147] - Quote Casina Lumine wrote: Those of you using the Vargur - how do you fit it against Serpentis with their annoying sensor dampening? Bastion module "You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear"n++
Problem Addict 2	Posted - 2017.04.09 18:34:33 - [148] - Quote Marauders suck
Eleanor Roscommon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2017.04.11 20:49:00 - [149] - Quote Wow, 8 pages of stuff, and no definitive answers!
stoicfaux 6279	Posted - 2017.04.12 02:48:18 - [150] - Quote Eleanor Roscommon wrote: Wow, 8 pages of stuff, and no definitive answers! Vargur is "best" because it has the most well rounded damage types. Guns are better than missiles due to long missile cycle times and DPS lost to overkill from grouped missiles. Plus the ability to kill frigates at range. Even with 4-5 TPs and the ability to one-shot non-elite cruisers, my Vargur times were better than my Golem times at full clears or blitzing. Regardless, the Paladin and Kronos are spiffy gun-boats as well if you avoid the NPCs they're weakest to. Overall, the differences between the gun Marauaders doesn't seem to justify making the claim that one of them is the best, IMO. Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.



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