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So i lost 4 billion..........

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Lucifer Saissore House of Black Lanterns The House of Black Lanterns 0	Posted - 2017.02.04 08:57:33 - [1] - Quote As above. I decided to try my hand at system trading found myself a good deal in jita, purchased the goods dumped them in my hauler and set off. Only had to travel 12 jumps to make a nice profit. Made 7 jumps without any issue 8th jump i am dead. One second i am in my ship next second in my pod literally that quick i had no warning of been targeted and no chance to try and counter the attack. The killer ship was a tornado with 1400 guns. Been a very casual player loosing 4bil cargo really pi$$ed me off. My question is how do i avoid this happening to me again do i need to train into cloaky hauler to survive in hisec? I do think its a cra-ppy feature of the game i lost 4bil the other guy lost a cheap hull. Any advice for a relative noob to stand a chance hauling cargo appreciated. Thank you
voetius Quiet Days in Clichy 471	Posted - 2017.02.04 09:28:06 - [2] - Quote The volley damage on a T2 fit tornado is something around 12k depending on skills and fit so I would guess (without checking zkillboard) that you had less than that as EHP. So you really need more than that especially if you are hauling valueables around. There are a few options: - personally I prefer to contract out my risks if feasible so I use the ingame chat channel "Haulers Channel" for posting public hauling contracts. The price you pay depends on size of contract, collateral and start and end points but from what you said it sounds like a Jita - Amarr or Jita - Dodoxie run, with 4 bill collateral I would look at 4mill per jump - alternatively, use a DST if you have a cargo up to 60k m3, or post a public contract - if it's small, like injectors and you really want to haul it yourself, a tanky Proteus or something on those lines would work. There isn't a best answer as it depends on whether you plan to haul it yourself or prefer to contract out the risk for reduced profits.
Do Little Virgin Plc Evictus. 777	Posted - 2017.02.04 09:51:12 - [3] - Quote 4 billion is a lot to be hauling - even freighters are ganked for less than that. The problem, with any ship other than a blockade runner, is they can see you coming. A scout will do a cargo scan and the ganker is waiting the moment you land. With a blockade runner they can't see what you're carrying but sometimes play "BR Roulette" trading their ship against the chance you are carrying something valuable. A blockade runner is easily fit to take an Alpha shot from a Tornado. I've survived 2 shots - and that was before we had passive DCU's. The gankers job is a lot harder now. With the covert cloak a blockade runner is exposed for 1 tick when warping - it's extremely hard to catch in highsec. When I've been shot at, it's normally docking - I'm too lazy to create or use insta-dock bookmarks plus it's fun collecting kill-rights and keeping your ship! As a rule of thumb, never carry more than 100 million in a T1 industrial. Freighters and DSTs can safely carry up to 1 billion. Anything more than that you should split it up, use a Blockade runner or a high collateral freight service like Blue Frog. If hauling it yourself, never fly what you can't afford to lose.
Lucian Skord Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2017.02.04 10:20:41 - [4] - Quote am i allowed to lol in here?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20478	Posted - 2017.02.04 11:42:32 - [5] - Quote Lucian Skord wrote: am i allowed to lol in here? Yes, yes you are. It's probably advisable that you explain why you're laughing though , and how someone in a similar situation may prevent themselves from being laughed at in the future. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Lucian Skord Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2017.02.04 12:46:17 - [6] - Quote its just the audacity to think that u could run around with 4 bil isk worth of loot in your cargohold in an untanked ship without decent intel or freinds to look out for you or whatever . i dont even put plex in my cargo. maybe what alerted the people who got the op were his market purchases. maybe not. maybe they just scanned around and randomly found a winner. that thought also makes me chuckle a bit. im also laughing at imagining the speed at which the alt scooped the loot and warped off. sry for your loss op but if your going to invest that kinda of isk you should read a bit more about running high risk trade runs. You are not totally safe in hi -sec. people can and will shoot at u given reason. Now i cant remember what a nados alpha is but go with what other people are saying so 12k. you need to be able to tank more than that if your not in a blockade runner. in which case you would just cloak as u aligned to warp off the gate....even then a decent pilot could decloak you by getting in 2k?? proximity. ...also the instablap makes me laugh too ....4 bill
Reinhardt Kreiss TetraVaal Tactical Group 177	Posted - 2017.02.04 13:27:10 - [7] - Quote Cloak MWD trick. If they can't target you they can't scan your cargo, if they can't scan your cargo they don't know you're packing. And even if they somehow found out they still can't target to kill you. It's not 100% safe as nothing ever is but it's as safe as it'll ever be. I've moved billions in and out of Jita in a normal T1 hauler with cloak MWD and an undocking BM from Jita station.
Elena Thiesant The Scope Gallente Federation 1763	Posted - 2017.02.04 13:33:46 - [8] - Quote tbh, I wouldn't put 4 bil into a tanked freighter... Highsec is safer, not safe. Anyone can shoot you, any time, they just have to accept there will be consequences (losing their ship). Cargo scanners are a thing, it's easy to tell what you have in your ship's cargo hold, and with a passive targeter, you wouldn't be aware you've even been scanned (there is a visual effect though), same with your ship's fit via a ship scanner. So, someone sitting at a gate could, within seconds have scanned your ship and cargo, seen what you were carrying and how you (weren't) tanked, calculated what would be needed to blow you up before Concord showed, and calculated the expected profit from doing so (roughly half your cargo will drop, so (cargo value)/2 - (attacking ship value) = expected profit. If you're hauling in highsec, there's a few options: small and valuable - covert ops or interceptor and rely on not getting caught. Not 100% reliable, see killboards for plex-carrying interceptors medium and valuable - blockade runner, can't be cargo scanned and reply on being fast and cloaky. Not 100% reliable, some people like gambling. large and valuable - freighter or deep space transport. Make it unprofitable to blow you up because of tank. Not 100% reliable, some people don't care about profit or, courier contract - outsource the risk, pay someone else to haul it. It does cost, but if you set the collateral correctly and they get blown up, you don't loose ISK. Personally I go for the latter mostly these days. I haven't flown more than 10 mil in or out of Jita in years.
Lucifer Saissore House of Black Lanterns The House of Black Lanterns 0	Posted - 2017.02.04 14:44:03 - [9] - Quote Thanks for all the replies and tips.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Escalating Entropy 11487	Posted - 2017.02.04 15:23:26 - [10] - Quote Here is a write-up I did awhile back regarding suicide ganking https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6544374#post6544374 For context; some nubbin was mining and someone attempted to have gank him. While the situation may not be exactly yours, the gist is the same and many of the same tactics miners use to be safe can also be used. Being "safe" in EVE has less to do with what equipment you have and more to do with how you use it. How did you Veterans start?
Sarah Covenant Brotherhood of Truth The Moebius Group 0	Posted - 2017.02.04 15:31:12 - [11] - Quote Lucifer Saissore wrote: My question is how do i avoid this happening to me again do i need to train into cloaky hauler to survive in hisec? I do think its a cra-ppy feature of the game i lost 4bil the other guy lost a cheap hull. Any advice for a relative noob to stand a chance hauling cargo appreciated. No, you don't have to train into cloaky haulers to survive in highsec. You can plan your trip and fit your ship to avoid situations like this. For example, one rule of thumb I go by is to only haul around 1 million ISK per 1000 effective hit point (EHP). So if I want to haul more expensive stuff, I need to tank more or get a ship with more EHP. Another example, when hauling low volume expensive stuff, I don't even use industrials. I use a high EHP fast warping combat ship. Also, there are inertial stabilizers that can help your ship warp faster, and adaptive invulnerability fields that gives a huge boost in shield resistances. Helpful link: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Hauling#Avoiding_Ganking I haul expensive cargo all the time and actually find this aspect of the game quite enjoyable. Adds some thrill to the journey. :p
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1887	Posted - 2017.02.04 15:50:44 - [12] - Quote Lucian Skord wrote: You are not totally safe in hi -sec. I would argue that in many ways you are less safe in high sec than anywhere else in K space. In null sec you can watch intel channels to know which routes are clear and which have enemies. You can send a fleet ahead to clear the way for you. In High sec Concord protects the gankers. I laugh when I hear people mentioning Concord "defending" or "protecting" in this channel. Concord ONLY! punishes. They punish criminal offenses after the fact. They in no way protect anyone from anything. Gankers can sit on a gate all day long waiting for the right target to show up. They are there in cheap ships that they fully intend to loose. If you were to send a group by to clear the way you could only get one ganker at a time and the consequence would be concord wiping out your entire fleet. So if you ask me the only people in the game that experience anything even closely resembling "protection" from Concord are the gankers. To the OP you are in no way safe in high sec. I am certain that every step along the way while playing this game you have been warned of the dangers and you chose to either ignore or minimize those warnings. This is an open world PvP sandbox where you can be engaged anytime and anywhere. Ganking, Scamming, Theft, Spying, and destruction for destruction's sake are not only allowed in this game but lauded and encouraged. If you are looking for a game that provides you with a "safe space" where you can do whatever you like with no worries of consequences then Eve is not the game for you. The advertising propaganda for this game pushes home the idea that the game is developed around the concept of decisions having real consequences. Phrases like "Eve is real" and "Make an impact on the Universe" have literally been advertising campaigns for this game. You have had to ignore advice that is thrown around everywhere in this game like "don't undock in what you can't afford to loose" and "don't fly around in untanked ships with expensive items in your cargo". You have absolutely no one to blame but yourself for this loss. Everything that you described was completely predictable and to be expected.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1162	Posted - 2017.02.04 16:03:11 - [13] - Quote There is no way to guarantee you will never lose a ship and the cargo it carries. However there are ways to guarantee that you never lose ISK when a ship and cargo are lost. Depending on how you set up your shipment you may lose some or possibly even all of your profit but you should NEVER actually lose ISK on them. The methods are complex, require effort and coordination on you part and many simply do not consider it worth the efforts considering this is a game but it is possible. DeBeers diamonds and the US mint to name just a few essentially use these same shipping options to minimize their risk of loss. Way to complex for a forum post but the basics are centered around splitting your shipment into multiple parts. Moving them in different types of ships, never using the same route. There are many other aspects of this and you will likely be able to find most of the information online if you look because all of it is common knowledge in the real world industries of moving expensive things.
Vortexo VonBrenner Raumfahrer Spiff Rakett Piloot Anslutning 2650	Posted - 2017.02.04 19:03:08 - [14] - Quote Lucifer Saissore wrote: ...found myself a good deal in jita How good? The old "if it seems to good to be true - it's not true" is a good principle to follow. Fits your circumstances for a variety of paranoia reasons especially. Lucifer Saissore wrote: loosing 4bil cargo really pi$$ed me off. Don't let losses of any kind bother you greatly. Learn from them. Lucifer Saissore wrote: My question is how do i avoid this happening to me again Not carrying 4 billion unprepared . Sorry, just true. EvE security zones in pictures EvE quick reference pdf EvE links
Iria Ahrens Space Perverts and Forum Pirates 1496	Posted - 2017.02.04 20:57:49 - [15] - Quote Contracts. zero risk for you. If the hauler gets blown up, you still get paid. My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
gfldex 812	Posted - 2017.02.04 21:31:31 - [16] - Quote Lucifer Saissore wrote: I do think its a cra-ppy feature of the game i lost 4bil the other guy lost a cheap hull. The guy in that Tornado is the reason the profitable trade was there in the first place. Maybe it's not that crappy after all. If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Chainsaw Plankton FaDoyToy 2528	Posted - 2017.02.05 01:14:23 - [17] - Quote this reddit thread has a lot of ideas for tanking t1 haulers. T1 haulers are fine for moving most stuff, but I'd watch the overall value. https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5qpnvz/how_to_troll_gankers_with_an_alpha_account/ I mostly use blockade runners to move stuff, My fits have a 3-4 second align time, covert cloak, and enough ehp to survive a tornado shot, I also use insta undock and docking bookmarks. I also use a deep space transport for larger loads, the DST has a huge tank and I use the mwd+cloak trick when hauling valuables. Anything bigger and I use a courier contract, and I have 2 freighter pilots with freighters. @ChainsawPlankto
Reinhardt Kreiss TetraVaal Tactical Group 177	Posted - 2017.02.05 10:35:00 - [18] - Quote Don't bother tanking. It does help to fit shield extenders and kin/therm resists to escape a casual gank would you fly empty on AFK but if you're moving valuables then tanking as a strategy doesn't work. Never has, never will. Cloak/MWD or use courier contracts. Here's a simple example fit of a high sec hauler, carrying almost 20K, that could move billions without ever being in trouble once you learned to use cloak/mwd. Fit can be adapted with nanofibers, overdrives or hyper rigs to suit your needs. [Badger, Basic High sec] Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II 50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Thermal Dissipation Amplifier II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II [empty high slot] Improved Cloaking Device II Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I Medium Cargohold Optimization I
Lulu Lunette Savage Moon Society 1207	Posted - 2017.02.05 19:30:30 - [19] - Quote The best way to move stuff is to get someone else to do it for you. @lunettelulu7
Memphis Baas 2895	Posted - 2017.02.06 11:12:49 - [20] - Quote Lucifer Saissore wrote: I do think its a cra-ppy feature of the game i lost 4bil the other guy lost a cheap hull. I think it's a brilliant feature of the game! Put 4 billion dollars in the back of your truck and go driving cross-country, see what happens.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 6667	Posted - 2017.02.06 18:40:54 - [21] - Quote I recently hauled over 32 billion ISK from hisec into lowsec ... in a cloaky Covert Ops. The most I'll put into a triple-bulkhead freighter is 2 billion ISK, but ~1 billion or less is recommended. I have gotten my freighter scanned and bumped with ~1 billion, and was subsequently let go both times. A heavily tanked Deep Space Transport is about the same as a Freighter. However, if you fit a MJD and claok, it severely reduces the tank, but may get you out of a bumping situation. It is a toss-up whether to use one or no (I usually don't). I've lost a Blockade Runner (Crane) to a Jita Tornado when I accidentally warped to the station, instead of using my insta-dock bookmark. I was distracted. Note that Blockade Runners are kill-on-sight, and should always be cloaked. My Crane had no cargo at the time; gankers roll the dice, and usually win. I currently own 4-5 each of: freighter, transport, blockade runner. I also own 2 Orca; they can have a ton of tank now, especially with shield bursts (and skills + implants), but the cargo capacity has been greatly reduced to around DST level.
Keno Skir 1252	Posted - 2017.02.06 20:39:31 - [22] - Quote When you're half way thru laughing at someone's comedy lossmail and realise they're in your corp and you could be laughing in person <Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï> <Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
Keno Skir 1252	Posted - 2017.02.06 20:40:28 - [23] - Quote Double Post - please delete. <Gùï> 250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <Gùï> <Gùï> Contact me regarding my trusted Alliance Creation Service <Gùï>
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1163	Posted - 2017.02.08 13:40:02 - [24] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Lucifer Saissore wrote: I do think its a cra-ppy feature of the game i lost 4bil the other guy lost a cheap hull. I think it's a brilliant feature of the game! Put 4 billion dollars in the back of your truck and go driving cross-country, see what happens. If you were careful with how and where you packed that 4 billion, and careful with what you said and who you said it to, and you were able to not get all paranoid and start doing stupid things you have a significantly greater chance to move 4 bil in a pick up truck in real life than you do in EvE because cargo scanners. Unless they break into your truck to look inside that random selection of crappy old cardboard boxes and commonly used solid colored plastic containers you have a very high probability that no one will ever know you have 4 bil hidden in your truck. In EvE we have no equivalent of the worn cardboard boxes and commonly used plastic containers. The containers we have can be scanned trough and those that cannot are likely to trigger a gank simply to find out what you are hiding.
Lucian Skord Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 6	Posted - 2017.02.08 14:35:33 - [25] - Quote Can you see inside containers when u use a ship scanner then?
Elena Thiesant The Scope Gallente Federation 1764	Posted - 2017.02.08 18:23:51 - [26] - Quote Lucian Skord wrote: Can you see inside containers when u use a ship scanner then? Yes. You can 'double-wrap', courier contract wrapping inside a container or container inside courier contract. Those can't be scanned through, but if you do that gankers may target you on principal, if you're hiding something then you have something to hide.
Ajem Hinken Quaice Industries 22	Posted - 2017.02.09 00:54:38 - [27] - Quote Elena Thiesant wrote: Lucian Skord wrote: Can you see inside containers when u use a ship scanner then? Yes. You can 'double-wrap', courier contract wrapping inside a container or container inside courier contract. Those can't be scanned through, but if you do that gankers may target you on principal, if you're hiding something then you have something to hide. Can Alpha's do this? I may consider doing it in a T1 industrial if possible just to screw with people's heads. Because the guy's expression when he opens the cargo he killed you for... only for it to turn out to be 1 veldspar or something of the like.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 1163	Posted - 2017.02.09 15:08:44 - [28] - Quote Ajem Hinken wrote: Can Alpha's do this? I may consider doing it in a T1 industrial if possible just to screw with people's heads. Because the guy's expression when he opens the cargo he killed you for... only for it to turn out to be 1 veldspar or something of the like. If you can create contracts you can do this but you need at least two characters to do it. On second thought you may be able to do it with one but I have never tried to contract something back to the same character so who knows. Do do what they are talking about you simply contract something you want moved to another character and there are two ways to do this 1. Contract the stuff to be moved and the game places it into a shipping crate (bubble wrap) and then the character who is hauling the cargo places that into a container and the container into the hold of the ship. 2. Put the stuff into a container and then contract the container to be moved. The game then places the container into a shipping grate (bubble wrap) and then the character doing the hauling places it into the hold. Realted but note really, you cannot place a container inside a container, the game will not allow it. I have never tested to see if a bubble wrapped container can be places inside another container, anyone out there tried this?
Marcus Binchiette Pyrotech Creations 79	Posted - 2017.02.13 13:43:22 - [29] - Quote 4 Billion ISK is too much to be hauling around. You should be aware that in highsec there are corporations that specialise in nothing but suicide ganking ships. Whereby they will sacrifice some cheap and expendable ships, which do a lot of damage, in order to destroy yours. As for the selection of ship - essentially you need to read the pointers above. Though you can do some hauling in a tech I industrial. There are two different classes of industrials. While the Big industrials can carry from 20,000 m3 to 26,000 m3 with proper fitting and skills they are very weak and slow. Never use the big industrials (Iteron V, Mammoth, Bestower, and Tayra) for trade hauling.... Ever. You only use the large industrials when you're off the main trade routes and you absolutely have to. The tech I industrial you should be using for trade hauling (assuming none of the better options are available to you) are Nereus, Wreathe, Sigil, and Badger. They will only carry 10,000 m3 max - but they have decent agility and fitting abilities. Such that they are boast 30,000 eHP, and also have sufficient agility for MWD+Cloak tricks. They are also a fairly ubiquitous ship, and don't scream out, "I'm a floating gank magnet. Please kill me". Because those industrials get used for everything. While it is possible to make a lot of ISK as a small volume high speed courier in a tech I industrial. Carrying anything more than 500k ISK is risky. Carrying more than 1 Billion ISK is an absolute no no.... CARRYING 4 Billion ISK IS INSANE!!!
KaarBaak Squirrel Team 419	Posted - 2017.02.13 22:23:53 - [30] - Quote The 'long road' to solve the "how did they do this" riddle is to try the other side for awhile. Train up and do some ganking of your own...maybe join a corp...maybe the corp that took your ship out (if they'll have you.) Spend some time learning how to kill hi-sec haulers and you'll learn how to avoid/withstand such attacks. Like I said...that's the long way of solving it. But as most of the other posters in the thread have said...the easy way is "don't be low-hanging fruit." You don't have the be impossible to kill. Just harder than most. One more analogy...to avoid being eaten by a shark, use the buddy system. You don't have to swim faster than the shark...you just have to swim faster than your buddy. Good luck KB Dum Spiro Spero

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