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Burn Jita - Safety for Alphas on the way?

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Ariztotle Bandits Incorporated 0	Posted - 2017.02.24 22:40:13 - [1] - Quote So CCP said a while back that suicide ganking with Alphas shouldnt be much of a problem and they were keeping the option turning Safetys On for Alphas if there was a lot of abuse or ganking got out of hand. Does the fact that the Goons are now doing this on a fairly large scale by using disposable cost-free and consequence-free Alpha alts in the latest Burn Jita mean this is now likely going to happen?
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Legio De Mortem 3826	Posted - 2017.02.24 23:21:07 - [2] - Quote Ariztotle wrote: So CCP said a while back that suicide ganking with Alphas shouldnt be much of a problem and they were keeping the option turning Safetys On for Alphas if there was a lot of abuse or ganking got out of hand. Does the fact that the Goons are now doing this on a fairly large scale by using disposable cost-free and consequence-free Alpha alts in the latest Burn Jita mean this is now likely going to happen? Burn jita is an annual tradition. They do it every year and frankly it's just good content for everybody involved. I seriously doubt anybody will have a knee jerk reaction to it Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Ariztotle Bandits Incorporated 0	Posted - 2017.02.24 23:53:03 - [3] - Quote The issue isnt with Burn Jita itself, its with the use of free Alpha alts to carry out the ganking during it
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 27782	Posted - 2017.02.25 00:15:00 - [4] - Quote Ariztotle wrote: The issue isnt with Burn Jita itself, its with the use of free Alpha alts to carry out the ganking during it What's the issue? Burn Jita happens once a year, it's not like there are armies of Alpha alts ganking on the scale of Burn Jita every day. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Legio De Mortem 3826	Posted - 2017.02.25 00:20:47 - [5] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Ariztotle wrote: The issue isnt with Burn Jita itself, its with the use of free Alpha alts to carry out the ganking during it What's the issue? Burn Jita happens once a year, it's not like there are armies of Alpha alts ganking on the scale of Burn Jita every day. You don't understand though there is right now thus it's an epidemic Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
MadMuppet A Better Corp Name 1229	Posted - 2017.02.25 01:51:28 - [6] - Quote I would say, wait and see. Alphas are limited to their skill sets and the ability to run on a single computer (in theory, tech savvy can work around that). This is going to be a test of the impact (good or bad) of the Alpha. This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.
Ariztotle Bandits Incorporated 0	Posted - 2017.02.25 07:17:46 - [7] - Quote Fair enough burn juts is only once a year but it is still a pretty major incident of abuse of Alpha clones. Many billions of isk getting destroyed. And if people see this sort of thing working successfully this weekend then chances are it will be used more frequently.
Starrakatt Celtic Anarchy The Bastard Cartel 652	Posted - 2017.02.25 07:54:29 - [8] - Quote Ariztotle wrote: Fair enough burn juts is only once a year but it is still a pretty major incident of abuse of Alpha clones. Many billions of isk getting destroyed. And if people see this sort of thing working successfully this weekend then chances are it will be used more frequently. It was already happening before Alpha Clone states, using throwaway secondary/tertiary account alts, or even Mains. What's new? It makes no difference. Thus there is no abuse. Join Celtic Anarchy! Sneaky bastard.
Omar Alharazaad Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 3262	Posted - 2017.02.25 07:56:16 - [9] - Quote Use and abuse are different things. I don't see how the alphas are going to make a significant difference, to be honest... other than letting some folks who would not otherwise participate enjoy the festivities. Or are you suggesting that alpha characters be denied access to types of gameplay within their skillset simply because they're not paying accounts? Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Clockwork Robot Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 44	Posted - 2017.02.25 12:44:53 - [10] - Quote Ariztotle wrote: So CCP said a while back that suicide ganking with Alphas shouldnt be much of a problem and they were keeping the option turning Safetys On for Alphas if there was a lot of abuse or ganking got out of hand. Does the fact that the Goons are now doing this on a fairly large scale by using disposable cost-free and consequence-free Alpha alts in the latest Burn Jita mean this is now likely going to happen? There. Right there, that's the issue here. You just knowingly and publicly outed yourself as not only being completely aware of Burn Jita as an event, but you went even further, and identified ways in which the annual event is going to be perforned. So. We established that you are in full posession of the facts. And you want CCP to do something for you. Well, I'll take care of this one for you, Ariztotle. If you want to not lose ships during this event, if you want to show your frustration with this event, if you wish to reduce your chances of being disrupted in any way during this event... Dont. Log. In. Its so very easy. Play another game. Let CCP do CCP. You do you. Or hell. Log in and ship-spin while chatting. Talk to your would be gankers, while safely invulnerable. Take grown-up, adult measures. Don't whine for "halp".

Zarek Kree Lunatic Legion Holdings 22	Posted - 2017.02.25 14:31:48 - [11] - Quote Given that Burn Jita has been happening annually for a long time, I don't really see how anything is different now with Alpha clones. They used to use newly minted trial accounts to suicide gank. In fact, I'd argue that alpha clones make it harder than it was under trial accounts because you're limited in what skills you can train. With 2+ weeks of unlimited training on a trial account you could get a much stronger gank alt than you can with an alpha clone. If CCP was okay with it before, I don't see any reason why they'd suddenly stop allowing it. Nothing has changed. Besides, I kind of get a kick out of it. I think most people do.
Syds Sinclair Aliastra Gallente Federation 274	Posted - 2017.02.25 17:09:03 - [12] - Quote Ariztotle wrote: The issue isnt with Burn Jita itself, its with the use of free Alpha alts to carry out the ganking during it ..Stop being a prude.
BJBee 9999 Suddenly Seamen. A Naval Charity 0	Posted - 2017.02.26 02:46:26 - [13] - Quote meh. i alpha, and i burned a little piece of jita. is ok i tell you.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 3071	Posted - 2017.02.26 03:42:18 - [14] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: Use and abuse are different things. Spoken like a true drinker. Bottom's up mate! Relatively Notorious By Association My Many Misadventures I predicted FAUXs
Msgerbs Imperial Assualt Guild 59	Posted - 2017.02.26 19:26:00 - [15] - Quote The only potential issue I see with this is that using an alpha means you don't need to care about sec status, etc. If they're just rerolling brand new alphas every year then I think it would fall under similar rules as biomassing characters to lose negative sec status. If they're just creating alphas that they use only for ganking and nothing else, I don't see the problem. It's basically the same as creating another character used only for ganking.
Tsutomi Sakuma KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2017.02.27 06:57:27 - [16] - Quote Zarek Kree wrote: Given that Burn Jita has been happening annually for a long time, I don't really see how anything is different now with Alpha clones. They used to use newly minted trial accounts to suicide gank. In fact, I'd argue that alpha clones make it harder than it was under trial accounts because you're limited in what skills you can train. With 2+ weeks of unlimited training on a trial account you could get a much stronger gank alt than you can with an alpha clone. If CCP was okay with it before, I don't see any reason why they'd suddenly stop allowing it. Nothing has changed. Besides, I kind of get a kick out of it. I think most people do. Nail, meet hammer.
YeuxVerts Belle Catastrophic Operations The Bastion 52	Posted - 2017.02.27 07:51:38 - [17] - Quote Msgerbs wrote: The only potential issue I see with this is that using an alpha means you don't need to care about sec status, etc. If they're just rerolling brand new alphas every year then I think it would fall under similar rules as biomassing characters to lose negative sec status. If they're just creating alphas that they use only for ganking and nothing else, I don't see the problem. It's basically the same as creating another character used only for ganking. I was tempted to join the goons there with my main. I don't care about sec status nor killrights, since i live in nullsec. What would i have to lose? The above message presents my opinions on the topic at hand. If there is a conflict between my views and reality, consider reality to be correct until proven otherwise.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Legio De Mortem 3831	Posted - 2017.02.27 08:33:54 - [18] - Quote YeuxVerts Belle wrote: Msgerbs wrote: The only potential issue I see with this is that using an alpha means you don't need to care about sec status, etc. If they're just rerolling brand new alphas every year then I think it would fall under similar rules as biomassing characters to lose negative sec status. If they're just creating alphas that they use only for ganking and nothing else, I don't see the problem. It's basically the same as creating another character used only for ganking. I was tempted to join the goons there with my main. I don't care about sec status nor killrights, since i live in nullsec. What would i have to lose? Your Pride Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri New Order Logistics CODE. 712	Posted - 2017.02.27 09:32:30 - [19] - Quote I fail to see a problem here, to be honest. As it was mentioned previously, Burn Jita wasn't remarkable for the use of apha clones. It's the sheer number of people involved that has made it possible. You don't see 200 to 300 characters on a single gank every day. Anyone who's taken at least one step beyond being a lowly F1 grunt knows that it's a big pain in the ass to rally such a large mass of people and make them do what you want them to do for a long enough period of time, especially when most of those people aren't accustomed to the given type of activity, like highsec ganking. Entities like Spectre Fleet could also organize a 300-man op with alpha characters and just roam the galaxy in free disposable ships, kicking ass wholesale (and I suppose, they did), but no one would complain that alphas are disposable and imbalanced in that instance. It's a matter of perception, really. Besides, it's very important to mention that alphas can't be multiboxed, not without breaking the EULA, at least. It means that whoever signed up for Burn Jita with an alpha had to sacrifice a lot, dedicating their entire EVE time to the event. They couldn't rat or mine at the same time, only gank. Neither did they have any financial incentive (none that I'm aware of, at least), the killmails and the memories of "being there when Jita burned" being their reward. We professional gankers don't use alphas in our everyday activities, since we rely heavily on multiboxing to scout and loot and don't have the numbers to make any significant use of the crappy T1 DPS more often than not. Being one of the people responsible for CODE.'s recruitment efforts, I have observed that the majority of alphas coming to us are either brand-new players or someone who's decided to try something new in EVE. After we show them how to gank, they either bring in subbed chracters or get filtered out, because the entry barrier into the trade of gankng is relatively high. To sum up, Burn Jita has had a tremendous effect on the community, and threadnoughts like this one are yet another testimony of it. However, the success of the event can only be attributed to the gank fleets' FCs and all the players who've helped to build and deliver the ganking gear and bring together massive numbers of participants. Those people are truly gods among men.
Agondray Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces 401	Posted - 2017.02.27 11:55:21 - [20] - Quote hey why not, goons have said if they can break something, it will be done. ie look at drones and heavy missiles. also what are other things they broke? "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat Snuffed Out 3981	Posted - 2017.02.27 12:11:26 - [21] - Quote Ariztotle wrote: The issue isnt with Burn Jita itself, its with the use of free Alpha alts to carry out the ganking during it so you are saying people should have to pay to gank, like an omega privilege? Alliance Logo Design Service -- Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel -- "Okay. So that was a pile of word salad..." - Bjorn Tyrson
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Legio De Mortem 3832	Posted - 2017.02.27 12:16:34 - [22] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Ariztotle wrote: The issue isnt with Burn Jita itself, its with the use of free Alpha alts to carry out the ganking during it so you are saying people should have to pay to gank, like an omega privilege? TBH if anything should have to be paid for it's mining. People should at least have to pay to commit to the game before we subject them to that horror Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Jagd Wilde Hageken Helldivers 77	Posted - 2017.02.28 02:15:22 - [23] - Quote Yea I agree, every highsec activity should be off limits for Alpha clones. If you can't be bothered to help support EVE then you don't deserve the benefits of high sec. If you want to try EVE for free, go to low or null and have at it. This includes mining, exploration, hauling, anything and everything. What rights should anyone have if they refuse to pay like the rest of us? Get subbed or get rekt. Every alt I own has a red safety, this has brought my friends much laughter.
Zarek Kree Lunatic Legion Holdings 28	Posted - 2017.02.28 04:29:41 - [24] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Yea I agree, every highsec activity should be off limits for Alpha clones. If you can't be bothered to help support EVE then you don't deserve the benefits of high sec. If you want to try EVE for free, go to low or null and have at it. This includes mining, exploration, hauling, anything and everything. What rights should anyone have if they refuse to pay like the rest of us? Get subbed or get rekt. The people who are least capable of surviving in lowsec or nullsec are new players. Highsec is for those who still need training wheels - and there's nothing wrong with that. Given the limits on alpha clones, I find it hard to see how they're somehow taking benefits that they don't deserve. The point is to give them enough time playing the game to decide to become a paying customer.
Armalite NARVAL Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2017.02.28 04:41:07 - [25] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Yea I agree, every highsec activity should be off limits for Alpha clones. If you can't be bothered to help support EVE then you don't deserve the benefits of high sec. If you want to try EVE for free, go to low or null and have at it. This includes mining, exploration, hauling, anything and everything. What rights should anyone have if they refuse to pay like the rest of us? Get subbed or get rekt. Yeah Burn F*****g Alphas !! ...or not. "Deserve it...." sic... Are you seriously think about all this alpha thing. CCP dont give free acces to EVE for long years. Only a 7 day trial. Discover Eve in 7 days. Yeah, sure ! And then they go for this alpha acces. Why ? Hmmm... maybe to resplenish the player pool, maybe to give the game a new impulse... Many alphas will try EVE and go away. Others try a bit and go for Omega because it's juste frustrating to be limited, and 20 buck per month for hours of gametime it's not a such big deal. But throw newbies in nullsec to play or, like the OP suggest implicitly, limit the possibility to engage in red dot activities and a bunch of Alphas just quit. Because it's not fun. Because the Alpha limitations are already pain in the ass. Goons try to exploit a game mechanic ? Woauuu ! Big news ! It's what Goons do. I guess Eve and his community will survive. And being a dik with Alphas it's juste a pathetic attitude. I try this game and take time to understand how things run before to rush like an idiot with my wallet in hands. It's free ? Good, i take ! And why i will go for Omega before having all my Alpha skills maxed ? Why throw my money away before find cool people to play with ? I support many games througt the time and i can understand this "Pay like others" attitude but seriously think twice before shitt*g on Alphas because in the mass of noobs and others kids may be your futurs corp pals.
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 2118	Posted - 2017.02.28 13:42:31 - [26] - Quote Zarek Kree wrote: The people who are least capable of surviving in lowsec or nullsec are new players. Highsec is for those who still need training wheels - and there's nothing wrong with that. While I agree that hisec should be considered training wheels and not the horribad ISK faucet that it actually is, noobs can actually do better in null/low then in hisec. Original Goonz and Brave Newbies have proved this many, many times. Hell, back when I first started playing it took me 3 months before I even flew into hisec...and man, I absolutely HATED it. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Legio De Mortem 3842	Posted - 2017.02.28 19:20:46 - [27] - Quote Mike Adoulin wrote: Zarek Kree wrote: The people who are least capable of surviving in lowsec or nullsec are new players. Highsec is for those who still need training wheels - and there's nothing wrong with that. While I agree that hisec should be considered training wheels and not the horribad ISK faucet that it actually is, noobs can actually do better in null/low then in hisec. Original Goonz and Brave Newbies have proved this many, many times. Hell, back when I first started playing it took me 3 months before I even flew into hisec...and man, I absolutely HATED it. Respectfully I disagree. while newbies 'can' do well out in nulsec they have more ability to thrive in one of the empire space areas because there is much more content from a PvE perspective they can tackle on thier own so if the group they are joining can still provide the PvP content based out of highsec or lowsec than empire space is probably better for newbros. It's also eaiser for them to experiemnt with ship fitting cause markets Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Jagd Wilde Hageken Helldivers 82	Posted - 2017.02.28 21:35:47 - [28] - Quote Zarek Kree wrote: The point is to give them enough time playing the game to decide to become a paying customer. Highsec is not safer for new players than living in null with a good group of players, EVE is an MMO after all. If you think otherwise then you have never left highsec, and you are part of the problem. Allowing Alpha alts to learn EVE the wrong way, highsec, does not help them. It only makes them targets and prevents them from learning correctly. Like it or not, Alpha's have been here long enough that if they were going to help sub numbers significantly, we would have thousands of new subs. What I have seen is thousands of free accounts leeching off CCP's good will. I speak to players all the time that have had Alpha ONLY account(s) for months now and can't give a valid reason why they haven't subbed yet. If you don't believe me, try it yourself, get out and speak to these Alpha clones. Start convo-ing everyone who started since the patch, you will find the Alphas pretty quick. Go for the 3-4 month old chars. Ask them why they are not subbed yet. Open your eyes. Every alt I own has a red safety, this has brought my friends much laughter. Get Subbed or Get Rekt.
Jagd Wilde Hageken Helldivers 82	Posted - 2017.02.28 21:38:53 - [29] - Quote Armalite NARVAL wrote: A lot of tears. You need to calm down miner. Get subbed or get rekt. Every alt I own has a red safety, this has brought my friends much laughter. Get Subbed or Get Rekt.
Zarek Kree Lunatic Legion Holdings 29	Posted - 2017.03.01 03:08:17 - [30] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: Zarek Kree wrote: The point is to give them enough time playing the game to decide to become a paying customer. Highsec is not safer for new players than living in null with a good group of players, EVE is an MMO after all. If you think otherwise then you have never left highsec, and you are part of the problem. I think you're getting a little too emotional. Good people can simply disagree. At the point when you start declaring those who disagree with you to be "part of the problem", the intellectual credibility of your argument becomes suspect. Null is only safer than highsec if you have a strong corp and social support structure. But, most new players don't even have a clue what a corp is or how they work. Most people hear about EVE, go to the website, download the client and start playing. Unless you join at the behest of an experienced player who then mentors you, new players lack the social contacts to immediately join a nullsec corp. The BNs and PHs of the game can't take every new alpha that signs up. That would leave most alphas alone in null trying to figure out the game. You CAN learn to swim in the middle of the ocean while sharks circle you if people are there to teach you and beat the sharks away. But who's going to do that for every rando who wanders in to try the game? Even if I agreed with your philosophy of dumping alphas into nullsec (which I don't), it's simply not workable in any realistic way. Not to mention it does nothing to entice new players to continue playing the game. Nobody knows what the sub numbers are other than CCP. Your anecdotal experience talking to random people may or may not be reflective of reality. If CCP isn't getting the subs they're hoping for, then I'm sure they'll tweak the system. But doing SOMETHING is better than watching the sub numbers continue to trickle away year after year. But they correctly recognize that attracting new players to the game isn't the problem - keeping them is. Alpha alts are as good a solution to the problem as any I've heard - and much better than just dumping them all into nullsec.

Jagd Wilde Hageken Helldivers 84	Posted - 2017.03.01 04:12:12 - [31] - Quote Zarek Kree wrote: Jagd Wilde wrote: Zarek Kree wrote: The point is to give them enough time playing the game to decide to become a paying customer. Highsec is not safer for new players than living in null with a good group of players, EVE is an MMO after all. If you think otherwise then you have never left highsec, and you are part of the problem. I think you're getting a little too emotional. Good people can simply disagree. At the point when you start declaring those who disagree with you to be "part of the problem", the intellectual credibility of your argument becomes suspect. Null is only safer than highsec if you have a strong corp and social support structure. But, most new players don't even have a clue what a corp is or how they work. Most people hear about EVE, go to the website, download the client and start playing. Unless you join at the behest of an experienced player who then mentors you, new players lack the social contacts to immediately join a nullsec corp. The BNs and PHs of the game can't take every new alpha that signs up. That would leave most alphas alone in null trying to figure out the game. You CAN learn to swim in the middle of the ocean while sharks circle you if people are there to teach you and beat the sharks away. But who's going to do that for every rando who wanders in to try the game? Even if I agreed with your philosophy of dumping alphas into nullsec (which I don't), it's simply not workable in any realistic way. Not to mention it does nothing to entice new players to continue playing the game. Nobody knows what the sub numbers are other than CCP. Your anecdotal experience talking to random people may or may not be reflective of reality. If CCP isn't getting the subs they're hoping for, then I'm sure they'll tweak the system. But doing SOMETHING is better than watching the sub numbers continue to trickle away year after year. But they correctly recognize that attracting new players to the game isn't the problem - keeping them is. Alpha alts are as good a solution to the problem as any I've heard - and much better than just dumping them all into nullsec. So you seem triggered , and I believe that's an emotional reaction, so pot meet kettle and all. I did say "part of the problem", you're the one who took it personal. The effort shows in your post. Get subbed or get rekt. ONLY null/low/wh would entice players to sub up, and only in null/low/wh will an Alpha get the proper in-game education. I say that based on my belief that no good advice is ever given out by "high sec only" denizens. Blind leading the blind and all. If this is where you take offence, it's probably something you and I will never get past. You act as if people need training wheels to play this game, if they do they need to find an easier game. EVE requires the ability to learn, situational awareness, and friends. AFK mining in an Alpha venture requires none of that. Anecdotal or not, my time spent gathering information from Alpha players (in highsec yes) has been informative. How do you get your information? "Gut instinct" doesn't seem quantifiable. I know this sounds like I'm talking about you, but that's your issue not mine. ;) Every alt I own has a red safety, this has brought my friends much laughter. Get Subbed or Get Rekt.
Zarek Kree Lunatic Legion Holdings 29	Posted - 2017.03.01 05:05:28 - [32] - Quote Jagd Wilde wrote: So you seem triggered , and I believe that's an emotional reaction, so pot meet kettle and all. I did say "part of the problem", you're the one who took it personal. The effort shows in your post. Get subbed or get rekt. LOL...Okay dude. Just trying to have a civil discussion. Have a good night.
Neuntausend GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1644	Posted - 2017.03.02 02:32:01 - [33] - Quote I'm still not sold on the idea that most of the Burn Jita participants were Alphas. But let's assume they were. This year, we had this little gimmick where we would create characters for the occasion, all using the same naming scheme to look more menacing, and the same avatar for a blowjob joke. So, people did create new characters for this and - sure - quite a few of those were probably on Alpha accounts. (I didn't make one, too much effort) So what? We did things like that before Alphas were even a thing. Heck, you could do this on the old 21 day trial. Were there no Alphas, and no trial, then we would just create our funky new gimmick-characters in a free slot on one of our main accounts, or just use our already existing charactes, which would come with the advantage of being able to multibox a scout or bumper or looter or something to murder undock-killmail-whores (wouldn't want to have a Burn Jita without the latter). The result would be pretty much the same. Pod update fees are not a thing anymore, so it doesn't matter if my 150M main gets podded, and it's not like destroying the sec status on our main characters will hurt most of us. We don't need the sec status in null, but we gain it anyway by ratting. Many goons are at +5 anyway when the time for Burn Jita comes around, and they will be at +5 again just a few weeks later without having to do anything they wouldn't do anyway. Burn Jita would play out exactly the same way with or without Alphas. So there is no argument for locking safety for Alphas. There is however a big argument against it: Alphas would be excluded from one of the major aspects of the game, and even worse: They would be excluded from one of the few ingame activities that they can really excel in, despite their skillpoint limitations.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 258	Posted - 2017.03.02 18:24:24 - [34] - Quote Using multiple accounts to circumvent the game designed punishments for unlawful behavior is a violation of the EULA. Everyone knew it would be exploited, but CCP is too desperate for new players to care about the integrity of the game. Pirates should be proud, and fly eternal ~~shiny and chrome~~ blinky and -10. Nothing wrong with highsec ganking, but the alpha clone abuse is blatant EULA violation. And NO you probably won't get anything but CCP Rise looking the other way and pretending it isn't a problem. Fact is even though some are cheating by recycling alts, CCP cares far more about them signing up an account so they can go show their investors the new numbers than about impropriety and difficult game management decisions. "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Ninteen Seventy-Nine Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 258	Posted - 2017.03.02 18:31:38 - [35] - Quote Neuntausend wrote: I'm still not sold on the idea that most of the Burn Jita participants were Alphas. But let's assume they were. Let's not. Let's just acknowledge that people are using the alpha clones improperly. Period. Most, all, 32%... none of that really matters. The fact is the feature is being exploited CCP just doesn't want to acknowledge or do anything about it. The only solution is alpha safeties in highsec. It sucks for the legitimate alpha clones engaged in highsec ganks/piracy without exploiting the alpha clone feature and recycling accounts. But those people will just have to turn to lowsec, 0.0 and wormhole space for their gank needs unless they want to upgrade to omega. "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Zarek Kree Lunatic Legion Holdings 29	Posted - 2017.03.02 18:45:55 - [36] - Quote Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote: Using multiple accounts to circumvent the game designed punishments for unlawful behavior is a violation of the EULA. Everyone knew it would be exploited, but CCP is too desperate for new players to care about the integrity of the game. Pirates should be proud, and fly eternal ~~shiny and chrome~~ blinky and -10. Nothing wrong with highsec ganking, but the alpha clone abuse is blatant EULA violation. And NO you probably won't get anything but CCP Rise looking the other way and pretending it isn't a problem. Fact is even though some are cheating by recycling alts, CCP cares far more about them signing up an account so they can go show their investors the new numbers than about impropriety and difficult game management decisions. Once again, this has nothing to do with CCP's decision to allow alpha accounts. The exact same thing happened under the trial account system. Nothing is being "exploited" that wasn't being done before. If anything, alphas have greater limitations than trial account alts did.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 259	Posted - 2017.03.02 18:52:37 - [37] - Quote Zarek Kree wrote: Once again, this has nothing to do with CCP's decision to allow alpha accounts. The exact same thing happened under the trial account system. Nothing is being "exploited" that wasn't being done before. If anything, alphas have greater limitations than trial account alts did. Who cares what was happening before, what are you even talking about? -Ganking is good for eve, piracy is good for eve. But those functions are intended to exist inside of a framework of consequences for "unlawful" actions. -the specific matter of people recycling accounts to avoid those consequences is a direct violation of the eula It doesn't matter what limitations existed in the past or do today. What is clear is that said limitations are not sufficient in avoid systematic exploitation of those mechanics. Safeties green for alphas in highsec is the only way to prevent this behavior. "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Zarek Kree Lunatic Legion Holdings 29	Posted - 2017.03.02 19:10:34 - [38] - Quote Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote: Zarek Kree wrote: Once again, this has nothing to do with CCP's decision to allow alpha accounts. The exact same thing happened under the trial account system. Nothing is being "exploited" that wasn't being done before. If anything, alphas have greater limitations than trial account alts did. Who cares what was happening before, what are you even talking about? -Ganking is good for eve, piracy is good for eve. But those functions are intended to exist inside of a framework of consequences for "unlawful" actions. -the specific matter of people recycling accounts to avoid those consequences is a direct violation of the eula It doesn't matter what limitations existed in the past or do today. What is clear is that said limitations are not sufficient in avoid systematic exploitation of those mechanics. Safeties green for alphas in highsec is the only way to prevent this behavior. So then your issue isn't with alphas, but with CCP's policy toward unpaid accounts. A policy that has been consistent for many, many years. You're free to argue that unpaid accounts shouldn't be able to gank in highsec (although I don't agree), but this isn't a new argument. The forums are full of it going back at least a decade (maybe all the way back to 2003, but I don't know what the mechanics were back then). So the question is, what do you think has changed that should compel CCP to change their interpretation of the EULA?
Noobshot Elongur KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2017.03.03 17:47:11 - [39] - Quote Ariztotle wrote: So CCP said a while back that suicide ganking with Alphas shouldnt be much of a problem and they were keeping the option turning Safetys On for Alphas if there was a lot of abuse or ganking got out of hand. Does the fact that the Goons are now doing this on a fairly large scale by using disposable cost-free and consequence-free Alpha alts in the latest Burn Jita mean this is now likely going to happen? Awwwwww, did someone lose a freighter?
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 47150	Posted - 2017.03.03 18:45:37 - [40] - Quote Ariztotle wrote: The issue isnt with Burn Jita itself, its with the use of free Alpha alts to carry out the ganking during it What is the issue? There were far more Omegas involved in burn Jita than there were alphas. Alphas aren't prevented from ganking and from the numbers involved in Burn Jita it certainly doesn't look like it was a problem there either.

Sitting Bull Lakota SBL Co 259	Posted - 2017.03.04 09:32:07 - [41] - Quote Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote: Zarek Kree wrote: Once again, this has nothing to do with CCP's decision to allow alpha accounts. The exact same thing happened under the trial account system. Nothing is being "exploited" that wasn't being done before. If anything, alphas have greater limitations than trial account alts did. Who cares what was happening before, what are you even talking about? -Ganking is good for eve, piracy is good for eve. But those functions are intended to exist inside of a framework of consequences for "unlawful" actions. -the specific matter of people recycling accounts to avoid those consequences is a direct violation of the eula It doesn't matter what limitations existed in the past or do today. What is clear is that said limitations are not sufficient in avoid systematic exploitation of those mechanics. Safeties green for alphas in highsec is the only way to prevent this behavior. Why is this behavior* necessary to prevent? How do you know these accounts are being recycled to avoid sec loss consequences? Is there any real harm from free2players ganking? You can't log in more than one at a time. You can't fly the quintessential gankalyst, only a close approximation as an alpha. You don't have the skills for the same raw dps of the gankalyst. The tedium of training up gank alphas to their max effectiveness has been enough to prevent widespread use of them. And again, because you can only take one out at a time, they necessitate coordination and a lot of teamwork which are both elements of EvE that we as a community should strive to expose new players to. That teamwork and the pleasure of seeing your group take down a large target is the stuff that keeps people logging back in. If anything, we should encourage more suicide ganking by alphas. *Ganking not EULA violation.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 259	Posted - 2017.03.05 14:04:33 - [42] - Quote Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: Why is this behavior* necessary to prevent? Why do anything... ever? Why god, why? Sorry, Why* god, why? Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: How do you know these accounts are being recycled to avoid sec loss consequences? How do you not? Seriously, you think every non-blinky highsec ganker is either a legit new player to the game or that they just got done buying tags and ratting their status back up so they could go nail an autopiloting shuttle? Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: Is there any real harm from free2players ganking? You can't log in more than one at a time. You can't fly the quintessential gankalyst, only a close approximation as an alpha. You don't have the skills for the same raw dps of the gankalyst. ]The tedium of training up gank alphas to their max effectiveness has been enough to prevent widespread use of them. And again, because you can only take one out at a time, they necessitate coordination and a lot of teamwork which are both elements of EvE that we as a community should strive to expose new players to. Is there harm from ganking? Of course not, not on it's face any way. It's like you didn't even read my posts and just hit reply. But, like any activity in eve, it's only harmless when it exists as intended within the rules of the game. When an activity exists within the mechanics of the game, but is done in a way that circumvents intended consequences or outcomes for that activity, that is what is called exploiting a game mechanic. Piracy and ganking are as good for eve as every other activity and all of them insofar as they are intended.. Which is to say...the sec hit losses and and infamy gained in such activities are every bit as important and a part to this game as the gank itself. Nothing you proceed to highlight in the affront to logic that follows can even be considered a deterrent, let alone a sufficient one. Your just listing things, poorly at that. (1. only log 1 in 2. cant fly max fit 3. cant fly max fit 4. cant fly max fit 5.only log 1 in) It's trivial to line up the handful of skills needed to train an alt, when you plan ahead you can have all of this at the ready in the station your new alpha spawns in. It's trivial to log one and log in the next. How do I know this? Because I know people rolling alpha clones, both legitimately new players and old players. I'm not sure what tedium you're referring to. No one cares about max effectiveness not sure why your going on about that except your grasping at straws to make this seem like some arduous labor to roll a char and train it for a catalyst/vexor.. The entire point is that 70% effective for cheap in a short period of time is more than sufficient. Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: And again, because you can only take one out at a time, they necessitate coordination and a lot of teamwork which are both elements of EvE that we as a community should strive to expose new players to. That teamwork and the pleasure of seeing your group take down a large target is the stuff that keeps people logging back in. If anything, we should encourage more suicide ganking by alphas. Ganking not EULA violation. Oh lol I just had to have a 2nd look at this. Yeah, incredible amounts of coordination and teamwork to join the same public channel and warp to the same station you did with your last 6 characters. Such amazing. Much necessitates. Wow. The teamwork and pleasure of seeing your group take down a target is... pretty much* every aspect of this game. It's not somehow unique to this activity. Which is also to say the same thing can be accomplished not only in lowsec, nullsec and anywhere else, but also with a multitude of other activities. We don't insist on alphas being able to run level 4's as some sacred cow activity that must be open to them. It's not like these players can't find pvp in any one of a gazillion other forms. Ganking isn't a eula violation? Who said that it was? Did you just add that at the end for theatrical effect or... did you actually have the point you acknowledged at the start of your post flee from your mind by the end of your post? All I know is that last bit is so disingenuous it makes me want to send your people blankets for the winter. "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Zarek Kree Lunatic Legion Holdings 30	Posted - 2017.03.05 15:06:45 - [43] - Quote Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote: But, like any activity in eve, it's only harmless when it exists as intended within the rules of the game. When an activity exists within the mechanics of the game, but is done in a way that circumvents intended consequences or outcomes for that activity, that is what is called exploiting a game mechanic. I'll ask again: How is what's going on now with alpha clones any different than what was happening for the previous 10+ years with trial accounts? There are far more limitations now on ganking alts than there used to be under the trial account system.
StonerPhReaK Herb Men 619	Posted - 2017.03.05 18:40:47 - [44] - Quote Zarek Kree wrote: Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote: But, like any activity in eve, it's only harmless when it exists as intended within the rules of the game. When an activity exists within the mechanics of the game, but is done in a way that circumvents intended consequences or outcomes for that activity, that is what is called exploiting a game mechanic. I'll ask again: How is what's going on now with alpha clones any different than what was happening for the previous 10+ years with trial accounts? There are far more limitations now on ganking alts than there used to be under the trial account system. You cant reason with someone who already has there mind made up as much as 79. No amount of numbers, logic, or rational can sway the set mind of said types of individuals. Even with concrete evidence they will just find another excuse/reason why they are right and the masses of others are insane. "there is no fool like an intellectual ... a kind of clever stupidity, bred out of a line of logic in the head, nothing to do with experience." Doris Lessing Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 259	Posted - 2017.03.06 00:33:58 - [45] - Quote StonerPhReaK wrote: Zarek Kree wrote: Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote: But, like any activity in eve, it's only harmless when it exists as intended within the rules of the game. When an activity exists within the mechanics of the game, but is done in a way that circumvents intended consequences or outcomes for that activity, that is what is called exploiting a game mechanic. I'll ask again: How is what's going on now with alpha clones any different than what was happening for the previous 10+ years with trial accounts? There are far more limitations now on ganking alts than there used to be under the trial account system. You cant reason with someone who already has there mind made up as much as 79. No amount of numbers, logic, or rational can sway the set mind of said types of individuals. Even with concrete evidence they will just find another excuse/reason why they are right and the masses of others are insane. "there is no fool like an intellectual ... a kind of clever stupidity, bred out of a line of logic in the head, nothing to do with experience." Doris Lessing I'm glad to address your questions even if you won't bother addressing mine. You can say there is no arguing with someone like me. But perhaps you should effort it once before writing me off? The answer to your question is, there has always been a problem with a particular subset of players using a readily available volume of accounts to avoid intended gameplay. The prevalence is certainly relevant. However, some delta vs past points of the game are not only laughable (you know as well as I only CCP can release those numbers and they've chosen not to thus far) they are irrelevant. The fact there remains a significant portion of people taking advantage of this, present as in past, should be reason enough to address the problem. The more difficult line of logic that then follows is... what exactly is it that is so essential to the eve experience that pvp cannot be expected to be achieved by alpha through dozens of other legitimate activities, aside from specifically targeting and firing on someone in highsec with whom they have no standings or timer related hostilities? "The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Zarek Kree Lunatic Legion Holdings 31	Posted - 2017.03.06 02:41:57 - [46] - Quote I don't recall hearing anyone previously demanding that trial accounts be locked to green in highsec. This notion that people are supposedly abusing non-paying accounts seems to be a new "problem" that just happened to coincide with the introduction of alpha clones. The fact that people (like yourself) are suddenly perceiving an abuse issue suggests that it's simply a reaction to something new and and different. Demonstrate that people widely regarded this as a problem before alpha clones and I might be willing to support the idea of preventative measures. Otherwise, it simply smacks of hysteria over something new. I'm willing to bet that CCP views it the same way. The question isn't why SHOULD alpha clones be allowed to suicide gank, but rather why SHOULDN'T they? If you read that Crossing Zebras article I linked earlier, he brings up the fact that one of the things that makes EVE unique is the ability to do everything on a new player account that you can on a paying account. There are no basic gameplay styles that you're prohibited from pursuing. You can rat, PvP, build, invent, mission, explore, scam and also gank. They simply limit your ability to pursue a gameplay style as efficiently as you can on an Omega clone. To that end, you can't gank as effectively as an alpha. The default should always be to allow a gameplay style. That has always been CCP's policy and I suspect it will continue to be their policy. Abuses that violate the EULA have always been handled on an individual basis. Feel free to call for greater enforcement, but you don't deal with enforcement problems by calling for more regulations.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 3213	Posted - 2017.03.06 08:45:23 - [47] - Quote Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote: The more difficult line of logic that then follows is... what exactly is it that is so essential to the eve experience that pvp cannot be expected to be achieved by alpha through dozens of other legitimate activities, aside from specifically targeting and firing on someone in highsec with whom they have no standings or timer related hostilities? Piracy? The ability to take other people's stuff because you can or want to is a core plank of the game. Nothing and nowhere is safe. "Be the Villain" is the quintessential idea of the game. Players are the bad guys, not hapless NPCs. Why shouldn't alphas be able to get their pirate on and play the game as a criminal? The single-login alpha rule seems to have worked to prevent all kinds of abuses, including that of players multiboxing ganking characters. This idea that it is somehow breaking the rules to have a dedicated criminal character is laughable. Since the beginning, almost 15 years ago, players have had multiple character slots and have been perfectly able to make a dastardly pirate to prey on the unsuspecting, and a high security status Goodie Two-Shoes who runs missions for the Empires or who serves in their fleets, thus isolating the "consequences" of one character from the other. Could no-cost ganking characters have caused a problem? I guess, but there is no evidence it has. There was a spike in CONCORD kills last month comparable to previous to other Burn Jita/Amarr events, but January and December were perfectly typical months as has March so far. Highsec has been made so safe they are near useless on their own, and they are inferior to Omega ganking characters is every way that there is no reason for a real pirate to use them. Looks like CCP made the right call in not locking their safeties to red. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad Tactically Challenged Tactical Supremacy 2931	Posted - 2017.03.06 20:19:12 - [48] - Quote OP, to be totally blunt, even as a player who played as an AG before getting fed up with hisec and heading back to 0.0 I do not agree with removing the ability to shoot people in hisec and go criminal, it is part of the game and Alphas should be able to shoot whoever they want as per Omega's. Do I care that some people can abuse it, no, people run multiple accounts without this, just look at the Kusions as an example. I can also tell you that this was talked about in the AG channel a couple of times when CCP first announced Alpha's and not a single person supported blocking Alpha's from going criminal in hisec. So the answer is no, no and no. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour. Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin


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