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War decs : not achieving objectives

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Rena Skjem Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 0	Posted - 2017.03.22 10:15:13 - [361] - Quote Yes. Lets reduce income that requires a coordinated effort of 40ppl that are in space and in their ships... I mean since they are in HS they completely immune and there is absolutely no risk, right?
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20706	Posted - 2017.03.22 10:49:09 - [362] - Quote Rena Skjem wrote: Yes. Lets reduce income that requires a coordinated effort of 40ppl that are in space and in their ships... I mean since they are in HS they completely immune and there is absolutely no risk, right? Thats the thing the people meuling about wars always gloss over. wars are so trivial to shake off that they're functionally and in a very real and practical sense, optional. we can dec all we like and the target can drop the corp and reform , literally as fast as they can get their members to dock up and click like three or four times. 50-500 mill just wasted. this is why incursion runners arent being constantly mauled. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Rena Skjem Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 0	Posted - 2017.03.22 11:06:03 - [363] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: this is why incursion runners arent being constantly mauled. Why do you want to pew pew vs ships that were specifically enginered for that one particular task(killing sansha rats, not other players)? Thats kinda risk averse.
Salvos Rhoska 2525	Posted - 2017.03.22 14:29:10 - [364] - Quote Rena Skjem wrote: Why do you want to pew pew vs ships that were specifically enginered for that one particular task(killing sansha rats, not other players)? Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task. Rena Skjem wrote: Yes. Lets reduce income that requires a coordinated effort of 40ppl that are in space and in their ships... I mean since they are in HS they completely immune and there is absolutely no risk, right? Glad you agree. Although Id point out they arent completely immune to risk. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Agent 5B Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2017.03.22 14:46:11 - [365] - Quote Rena Skjem wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: this is why incursion runners arent being constantly mauled. Why do you want to pew pew vs ships that were specifically enginered for that one particular task(killing sansha rats, not other players)? Thats kinda risk averse. I want to steal all their expensive mods that they fitted and put them in a station hanger never to be seen again.
Salvos Rhoska 2525	Posted - 2017.03.22 15:12:39 - [366] - Quote Agent 5B wrote: Rena Skjem wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: this is why incursion runners arent being constantly mauled. Why do you want to pew pew vs ships that were specifically enginered for that one particular task(killing sansha rats, not other players)? Thats kinda risk averse. I want to steal all their expensive mods that they fitted and put them in a station hanger never to be seen again. Alternatively, and far more drastically, remove CONCORD from HS Incursion systems. This harms non-Incursion players there, but tbh they cant earn squat there anyways whilst the Incursion is present, and should gtfo by all means necessary asap. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Agent 5B Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2017.03.22 16:15:49 - [367] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Alternatively, and far more drastically, remove CONCORD from HS Incursion systems. This harms non-Incursion players there, but tbh they cant earn squat there anyways whilst the Incursion is present, and should gtfo by all means necessary asap. That's not a bad idea so long as you have the modal window gate warning like when you enter low sec for the first time. Or maybe a temporary reduction is security level that slowly recovers as parts of the incursion are completed. Not sure what implications that would have for things like player structures in the system.
Salvos Rhoska 2525	Posted - 2017.03.22 16:50:59 - [368] - Quote Agent 5B wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Alternatively, and far more drastically, remove CONCORD from HS Incursion systems. This harms non-Incursion players there, but tbh they cant earn squat there anyways whilst the Incursion is present, and should gtfo by all means necessary asap. That's not a bad idea so long as you have the modal window gate warning like when you enter low sec for the first time. Or maybe a temporary reduction is security level that slowly recovers as parts of the incursion are completed. Not sure what implications that would have for things like player structures in the system. Incursions already cause huge penalties to non-Incursion runners. Just so some bling ships can run enormously lucrative content, everyone that lives their otherwise gets kicked in the balls. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Rena Skjem Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 0	Posted - 2017.03.22 17:05:22 - [369] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task. The fits were designed to last long enough to catch reps + as much dps as you can get. So yeah.. they were engineered. HS incursions are that high because they run by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time. Even then its 150 m/hour on average. They are "really" high when there is 60bil on grid running TCRC non stop. Also incursions are group activity and why group activity should be less rewarding that solo activity?
Salvos Rhoska 2527	Posted - 2017.03.22 20:00:48 - [370] - Quote Rena Skjem wrote: HS incursions are that high because they run .by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time. Even then its 150 m/hour on average And your risk, is what? You are just printing isk, day after day, in the safest sector of EVE. To make matters worse, you earn that, whilst the HS Locals get crippling penalties on their own income/efficiency due to system effects. Bullshit. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent

Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 3251	Posted - 2017.03.22 20:06:33 - [371] - Quote Rena Skjem wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task. The fits were designed to last long enough to catch reps + as much dps as you can get. So yeah.. they were engineered. HS incursions are that high because they run by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time. Even then its 150 m/hour on average. They are "really" high when there is 60bil on grid running TCRC non stop. Also incursions are group activity and why group activity should be less rewarding that solo activity? Please at least be fair. Incursion fits are the probably the PvE fit the closest to an actaul PvP fit since you can't tank specific damage type. The fits are pretty glass cannon but they sure make more sense PvP wise than a mission fit with gaping resist holes... You also happen to have a somewhat decent fleet setup with logi, boost and likely web support.
Salvos Rhoska 2527	Posted - 2017.03.22 20:09:40 - [372] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Rena Skjem wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task. The fits were designed to last long enough to catch reps + as much dps as you can get. So yeah.. they were engineered. HS incursions are that high because they run by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time. Even then its 150 m/hour on average. They are "really" high when there is 60bil on grid running TCRC non stop. Also incursions are group activity and why group activity should be less rewarding that solo activity? Please at least be fair. Incursion fits are the probably the PvE fit the closest to an actaul PvP fit since you can't tank specific damage type. The fits are pretty glass cannon but they sure make more sense PvP wise than a mission fit with gaping resist holes... You also happen to have a somewhat decent fleet setup with logi, boost and likely web support. I see I hit another nerve. GJ on a failed attempt to sideline the issue of HS Incursion profits and safety. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Ludwig van Baithoven Hedion University Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2017.03.22 22:27:04 - [373] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Rena Skjem wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Those ships arent "specifically engineered" for any one task. The fits were designed to last long enough to catch reps + as much dps as you can get. So yeah.. they were engineered. HS incursions are that high because they run by competent FC with strategies that were refined over time. Even then its 150 m/hour on average. They are "really" high when there is 60bil on grid running TCRC non stop. Also incursions are group activity and why group activity should be less rewarding that solo activity? Please at least be fair. Incursion fits are the probably the PvE fit the closest to an actaul PvP fit since you can't tank specific damage type. The fits are pretty glass cannon but they sure make more sense PvP wise than a mission fit with gaping resist holes... You also happen to have a somewhat decent fleet setup with logi, boost and likely web support. I see I hit another nerve. GJ on a failed attempt to sideline the issue of HS Incursion profits and safety. Null-sec is a lot safer than High-sec and they print a lot more ISK in safety there than incursion runners do.
Rena Skjem Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave 2	Posted - 2017.03.23 06:39:46 - [374] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: And your risk, is what? 2bil on grid is not risk? Logi getting suicide ganked resulting in a couple of deaths is not a risk? wardecs is not a risk? If that is not risking that i dont know what is. Define "RISK" please.
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6259	Posted - 2017.03.23 07:08:20 - [375] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Sykes Makar wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: If it cant be done by PvP, then some other means are necessary to address HS. Some may disagree, but I find the Jita monstrosity unhealthy for the game. Some will argue its a result of player choice. In my view, that is only a symptom of failing underlying mechanics which make such an abomination possible. I believe HS should further be less attractive to be in, rather than enforcing the PvP element onto those who would like to remain in high-sec despite this. Reducing HS Incursion income and Ice belts would be a good start. Why? Eve is experiencing deflation...why would reduce money creation in this case. Who are you angling to be? Eugene Meyer? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska 2537	Posted - 2017.03.23 11:55:47 - [376] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Sykes Makar wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: If it cant be done by PvP, then some other means are necessary to address HS. Some may disagree, but I find the Jita monstrosity unhealthy for the game. Some will argue its a result of player choice. In my view, that is only a symptom of failing underlying mechanics which make such an abomination possible. I believe HS should further be less attractive to be in, rather than enforcing the PvP element onto those who would like to remain in high-sec despite this. Reducing HS Incursion income and Ice belts would be a good start. Why? Eve is experiencing deflation...why would reduce money creation in this case.? Oh cmon, man. Thats like arguing HS Incursion income should be increased to combat deflation. The point is these two activities are too lucrative in HS under CONCORD. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6263	Posted - 2017.03.23 16:41:58 - [377] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Sykes Makar wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: If it cant be done by PvP, then some other means are necessary to address HS. Some may disagree, but I find the Jita monstrosity unhealthy for the game. Some will argue its a result of player choice. In my view, that is only a symptom of failing underlying mechanics which make such an abomination possible. I believe HS should further be less attractive to be in, rather than enforcing the PvP element onto those who would like to remain in high-sec despite this. Reducing HS Incursion income and Ice belts would be a good start. Why? Eve is experiencing deflation...why would reduce money creation in this case.? Oh cmon, man. Thats like arguing HS Incursion income should be increased to combat deflation. The point is these two activities are too lucrative in HS under CONCORD. That would be one way to do it. But right now the money supply is shrinking and prices are decreasing. Removing these things would accelerate that process, and large levels of deflation are bad. If deflation implies a small positive rate of return on holding cash, that is probably okay, just as small levels of inflation are okay. But when it gets large enough, say you are earning 10% by holding cash or more, then it is a very bad thing. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska 2551	Posted - 2017.03.24 05:58:06 - [378] - Quote Or prices where inflated, and are now naturalizing. In anycase, income from PvE is related to other issues than the value of isk. HS Incursion income is too high for the HS Concord environment and HS icebelts are too bountiful/frequent in the same. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6263	Posted - 2017.03.24 06:03:02 - [379] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Or prices where inflated, and are now naturalizing. That is still deflation. The idea of a natural price, by the way, is bullshit. Quote: In anycase, income from PvE is related to other issues than the value of isk. HS Incursion income is too high for the HS Concord environment and HS icebelts are too bountiful/frequent in the same. Fine, but if you are going to remove that source of ISK creation in the face of deflation find some other source of ISK to buff to make up for it. Simply removing it would be, IMO, a mistake. I doubt that will sway you, but deflation is bad. Exhibit 1: The Great Depression. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska 2551	Posted - 2017.03.24 06:06:46 - [380] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Or prices where inflated, and are now naturalizing. That is still deflation. The idea of a natural price, by the way, is bullshit. Quote: In anycase, income from PvE is related to other issues than the value of isk. HS Incursion income is too high for the HS Concord environment and HS icebelts are too bountiful/frequent in the same. Fine, but if you are going to remove that source of ISK creation in the face of deflation find some other source of ISK to buff to make up for it. Simply removing it would be, IMO, a mistake. I doubt that will sway you, but deflation is bad. Exhibit 1: The Great Depression. 1) Yes, its deflation. And you know what I meant by "naturalizing" in a colloquial sense. Im not an economist. 2) Sure. For example HS Drone Sigs could use a bounty increase, as they otherwise lack significant drops or materials of any substantial value to the market (alloys). Removing the bounty and other penalties on the Incursion systems would also generate more isk rather than kicking the locals in the balls. 3) I wasnt advocating for removal of Hs Incursions, just reducing the income. Reducing yield/frequency of HS icebelts would not cause deflation. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent

Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6263	Posted - 2017.03.24 06:15:23 - [381] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Or prices where inflated, and are now naturalizing. That is still deflation. The idea of a natural price, by the way, is bullshit. Quote: In anycase, income from PvE is related to other issues than the value of isk. HS Incursion income is too high for the HS Concord environment and HS icebelts are too bountiful/frequent in the same. Fine, but if you are going to remove that source of ISK creation in the face of deflation find some other source of ISK to buff to make up for it. Simply removing it would be, IMO, a mistake. I doubt that will sway you, but deflation is bad. Exhibit 1: The Great Depression. 1) Yes, its deflation. And you know what I meant by "naturalizing" in a colloquial sense. Im not an economist. 2) Sure. For example HS Drone Sigs could use a bounty increase, as they otherwise lack significant drops or materials of any substantial value to the market (alloys). Prices "naturalizing" is meaningless. Inflation and deflation are largely due to changes in the money supply. And deflation means that you can increase your purchasing power by simply not spending. That is your purchasing power tomorrow is greater than it is today. The idea of some sort of natural or ideal price is meaningless. Prices are largely subjective because value in economics is largely subjective. You hate beets, I like them. You won't buy them at a given price whereas I will. Subjective. Just make sure the changes are offsetting which will be hard because it is not clear that incursion runners will just shift over to the other options. This is what makes economics hard. It is not a mechanical/engineering process. It is a process that includes people who can and will do things you did not anticipate. For example, if a percentage of incursion runners simply quit not only will you lose the ISK creation those players entail you'll get a one time decrease in the money supply as the ISK i their wallets is permanently lost from the economy. Trying to balance these things is, IMO, impossible. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1588	Posted - 2017.03.24 06:19:53 - [382] - Quote Ludwig van Baithoven wrote: [Null-sec is a lot safer than High-sec and they print a lot more ISK in safety there than incursion runners do. The economic reports don't support that statement: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-december-2016/ Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Salvos Rhoska 2551	Posted - 2017.03.24 06:34:54 - [383] - Quote http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/71808/1/9a_sinksfaucets.png Doesnt this indicate more isk is generated in EVE, than destroyed? So we are in inflation, not deflation, at this moment? PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6263	Posted - 2017.03.24 07:31:08 - [384] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/71808/1/9a_sinksfaucets.png Doesnt this indicate more isk is generated in EVE, than destroyed? So we are in inflation, not deflation, at this moment? No. Go look at the price indices. The PPI and the like. Here is the 3 year indices. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/Feb_2017/9d_economy.indices.short.png The PPI, the CPI, and the MPI are all declining with the SPPI being flat. And here is the charts for the money supply, http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/Feb_2017/9b_isk.float.3.png "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska 2552	Posted - 2017.03.24 09:25:17 - [385] - Quote So what is the rate of deflation atm? PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Lan Wang Knights of the Posing Meat Snuffed Out 4060	Posted - 2017.03.24 09:33:58 - [386] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Alternatively, and far more drastically, remove CONCORD from HS Incursion systems. this is the best idea ive heard from you... Alliance Logo Design Service -- Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel -- "Okay. So that was a pile of word salad..." - Bjorn Tyrson
Salvos Rhoska 2556	Posted - 2017.03.25 13:26:34 - [387] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Alternatively, and far more drastically, remove CONCORD from HS Incursion systems. this is the best idea ive heard from you... Thanks, I guess. Teckos: Still waiting on that deflation figure. Clearly you know your stuff as a self pronounced economist. You made the claim deflation is occurring. So can you please substantiate that? PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6273	Posted - 2017.03.25 18:05:01 - [388] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: So what is the rate of deflation atm? I don't know, all CCP Quant provides are the graphs vs. the actual numbers behind the graphs. But the point still stands, there is deflation in the economy at the moment. CCP Quant's graph again. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/Feb_2017/9d_economy.indices.short.png MPI trending down since May 2016. CPI trending down since January 2016. PPPI trending down pretty much since May 2015 with a brief upswing in the first half of 2016, returning to a downward trend. SPPI trending up July 2016. So 3 out of 4 measures of inflation say: deflation. Eyeballing the chart for the MPI the MPI has decreased by about 21-22%. So the monthly rate is about 2.2%. If you have a pile of minerals sitting around...sell, sell, sell before the price drops another 2.2% "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Natural CloneKiller The Phoenix Rising Vendetta Mercenary Group 383	Posted - 2017.03.25 21:44:58 - [389] - Quote War decs bring meaning to the game. Nothing wrong with system. Ccp falcon has already answered these questions. We should have the ability to dec anyone any time for any reason. This is eve not wow!
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 485	Posted - 2017.03.25 22:31:17 - [390] - Quote I don't believe wardecs have any place in eve really, they serve no purpose. If I'm a highsec corp then wardecs interrupt my regular gameplay. If I'm a lowsec corp they don't affect me. If I'm a nullsec corp they help intercept goods, but only because those goods skip right by lowsec. A WH corp again is unaffected, worst case use out of corp haulers. Really it only is used to go after easy kills under the safety of highsec mechanics. People often say, players will go where the risk is lowest, well gankers should look in the mirror. The economy is not so sensitive that ganking has much effect. Now of course, HS has more targets and easy access to them but is it good for the game that so much is concentrated in highsec? Remove wardecs and replace with some form of kill right style mechanic for corps. Structures would need to be exempt from concord response since without wardecs they would be untouchable, but really what busines is it of the police how your deathstar fares. A case for more AoE in EvE



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