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Where'd the weight go?

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Xanith Minmatar Cereal Puff's Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.04.28 07:08:00 - [1] I don't normally post on the forums, so don't flame me about my grammar.. punctuation.. or lack of body :) this idea came to me as i was wandering the house in search of relief and nutrition.. i moved alot slower when i left the fridge.. but dang.. i coulda sworn it took no time to get to it.. Ok.. So you load your truck bed with 15 ppl.. that truck isn't going to take off.. turn.. accelerate.. decelerate.. or anything as fast as it normally would had those people not been in that truck.. here's my question.. where's weight? you fill a freighter with goods.. it turns jsut as slow. .as if it had nothing in it.. a hauler.. same thing.. a battleship.. same thing.. every ship.. goes the same speed.. reguardless of it's cargo hold contents.. now imagine.. forcing those lowsec pirates (I happen to be guilty of that crime myself) to ride light.. lower ammo qty's.. they need to make that fast getaway in case it gets too hairy.. or.. a pirate warps in on a tanked BS.. he's gotta keep in mind his speed.. as if he carriers too much ammo.. or tries to loot too many people all in a row.. he's risking capture with a heavy load.. same for 0.0 warfare.. you wanna slow down huge battles.. make em last longer.. everyone that carries a full load of ammo wil ltake forever to catch the enemy.. or to get away.. make those small skirmishes a bit faster paced or give your tanking ability a chance to really save your hide.. and make those big ones last longer.. the longer it takes.. the more tedious it becomes.. who wants to sit in a 200 man floeet for 20 hours? no one.. A possible way to make travel in easier when you aren't carrying anything.. but take you forever when you've got a load.. i mean come on.. the occator by itself is only 20Km3 packed... and you're cramming 35K cargo in it? and it doesn't make those thrusters work harder?
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.28 07:19:00 - [2] If I had to guess Id say they nerfed it before it went into release due to obvious lag. Most items have a mass associated so they clearly gave it some thought. Also, even if ammo was really heavy and affected ship mass it wouldnt really have much of an effect, as people would just stash a bunch of stuff in cans at the local safespot. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Emylissan Gallente European Science Armada	Posted - 2007.04.28 09:14:00 - [3] Arent the difference weapon kinds more or less balanced atm? I mean wouldnt that give the energie weapons a huge advantange cause no ammo at all is needed and i think i saw some posts where player typed something about caldarie missle ships are nearly useless and i think that 1000 rockets are a heavy thing in cargo. ----------------------------------------------------- Everyone who finds a type error can keep it. -----------------------------------------------------
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2007.04.28 09:52:00 - [4] The main problem is that ships for each race are balanced according to the weapon type that race uses. Gallente and Minmatar use short range weapons and faster ships to get into range quickly, Gallente slightly slower because they have drones to back them up as well. Caldari use long range and missiles mostly so their ships are slightly slower. What would result is that everyone would jump into Amarr ships as they need no ammo in the hold that would slow them down. To balance what you propose would mean an overhaul of every ship to change it's speed and Amarr ships would come off worse. They would be slowed to a crawl because they carry no ammo. Minmatar would be hit hard because autocannons fire quite fast so lots of ammo is needed but it would slow them so far that getting into such a short range would be impossible. If it aint broke, don't fix it. The combat works quite well as it is, don't try to add things that could unbalance everything. --
KaerBerohs Amarr Pod Killing Machines	Posted - 2007.04.28 12:46:00 - [5] In reality in space weight has no influence. Weight is a direct result of gravity and since there's none in space it does not apply! You could push a aircraft-carrier away with your own hands. Reality in space is not the same as on earth. The physics are totally different in vaccum! What you do have is mass and mass does influence the outcome of the agility of the ships, but I'm not really sure if cargo mass is also used in the calculations. If you fit a 1600mm armor plate your mass will go up like hell and the agility will be decreased, so in fact, what you ask is already applied in the game except it's not applied to the extent you wished for.
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr The Plebians	Posted - 2007.04.28 14:35:00 - [6] Originally by: KaerBerohs In reality in space weight has no influence. Weight is a direct result of gravity and since there's none in space it does not apply! You could push a aircraft-carrier away with your own hands. Reality in space is not the same as on earth. The physics are totally different in vaccum! What you do have is mass and mass does influence the outcome of the agility of the ships, but I'm not really sure if cargo mass is also used in the calculations. Actually, although in zero gravity you would have no weight, weight is not the physical property used to determine acceleration, it is in fact an obects mass which determines how much acceleration is caused by a certain force. So if you were as in your example, to attempt to push an aircraft carrier away your own hands, you would have little effect on it in the only difference would be that without friction to slow it down (due to the near vacuum of space not the lack of gravity), it would keep the small ammount of velocity that you imparted to it untill something else acted upon it to slow it down... And on the topic the op was going for, although i like the idea it would seriously change the balance of the game due to the differing ammo requirements of the various races.....
KaerBerohs Amarr Pod Killing Machines	Posted - 2007.04.28 16:34:00 - [7] Well, I really have to say that I don't understand how you read my post and say I'm wrong when I'm saying pretty much the same thing you are! I said weight had no influence in space. Said you could indeed push a carrier away with your own hands... so I think you mis-read my post? On the other hand I did say the physics are different on earth than in space when what I meant was that the rules you apply when making the calculations for thrust and dinamics are just not the same. On earth you have to account for gravity, attriction and so on. In space you also have gravity fields and you are by no means free of gravity anywhere, but that influense is really small if you get far enough from any object with a decent amount of mass! Anyway, what I did say is that IN-GAME the mass of the ship is taken into account when determining the agility modifier, which indeed does what the OP is requesting, thus making this thread asking for something that's already in-game. Hope I made myself clearer this time. Sorry for any mis-understanding
Ishma Nelass	Posted - 2007.04.28 16:52:00 - [8] Edited by: Ishma Nelass on 28/04/2007 16:48:51 When it comes to physics this game isn't particularly realistic, and I think we'll have to learn to live with that. If we were to use proper physics, and give each ship a max acceleration rather than a max speed, and have planets draw you closer if you get near enough etc etc etc... Every single aspect of combat and travelling would have to be re-examined. Nothing would be the same. It would be a different game.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2007.04.28 18:58:00 - [9] Originally by: KaerBerohs In reality in space weight has no influence. Weight is a direct result of gravity and since there's none in space it does not apply! You could push a aircraft-carrier away with your own hands. Reality in space is not the same as on earth. The physics are totally different in vaccum! What you do have is mass and mass does influence the outcome of the agility of the ships, but I'm not really sure if cargo mass is also used in the calculations. If you fit a 1600mm armor plate your mass will go up like hell and the agility will be decreased, so in fact, what you ask is already applied in the game except it's not applied to the extent you wished for. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Xanith Minmatar Cereal Puff's Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.04.28 21:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Drizit The main problem is that ships for each race are balanced according to the weapon type that race uses. Gallente and Minmatar use short range weapons and faster ships to get into range quickly, Gallente slightly slower because they have drones to back them up as well. Caldari use long range and missiles mostly so their ships are slightly slower. What would result is that everyone would jump into Amarr ships as they need no ammo in the hold that would slow them down. To balance what you propose would mean an overhaul of every ship to change it's speed and Amarr ships would come off worse. They would be slowed to a crawl because they carry no ammo. Minmatar would be hit hard because autocannons fire quite fast so lots of ammo is needed but it would slow them so far that getting into such a short range would be impossible. If it aint broke, don't fix it. The combat works quite well as it is, don't try to add things that could unbalance everything. WEll.. i do agree that the amarr have a slight advantage with the crystals.. i also happen to think that the volume of crystals should be changed and made on par with all other ammo types.. im not talking about jsut weight.. the more weight(mass) you have.. the more inertia the object has.. which in turn makes everything slower.. you really wouldn't cause an unblanced issue.. you would still have the same speeds now.. and the percentage of speed lost due to increased cargo will be minimal (3%, 5%, 10% depending on skills) as well you'd also have skills and mods that would directly affect the percentage.. getting into range would not be impossible.. but a bit harder.. or takes a bit more time.. slows the game down.. the battles are slower.. take longer.. you have more opportunity to make quick tactical decisions.. Originally by: KaerBerohs In reality in space weight has no influence. Weight is a direct result of gravity and since there's none in space it does not apply! You could push a aircraft-carrier away with your own hands. Reality in space is not the same as on earth. The physics are totally different in vaccum! What you do have is mass and mass does influence the outcome of the agility of the ships, but I'm not really sure if cargo mass is also used in the calculations. If you fit a 1600mm armor plate your mass will go up like hell and the agility will be decreased, so in fact, what you ask is already applied in the game except it's not applied to the extent you wished for. It's not applied in any extent in relation to the idea i posted.. You put a plate.. which incrases the total ship mass.. im talking about cargo.. Reducing the mass of ships isn't what im suggesting.. the ones who will notice the effects most are haulers and freighters.. as they have higher volume than any other ship.. im not suggesting you make a vagabond go 50m/s with a full load of cargo.. the suggested figures from an empty cargo hold to a full cargohold wouldn't be more than maybe 10-20m/s for cruiers 5-10 for bs and maybe 30 tops for cruisers.. so if you want those extra few m/s you can unload your cargo.. Crystals should be bigger.. if a caldari pilot has to carry 300m3 of ammo to shoot at someone for 15 minutes (not realistic figures) then it should be the same for an amarr pilot (i happen to be an amarr and gallente pilot)
Emylissan Gallente European Science Armada	Posted - 2007.04.28 22:08:00 - [11] Edited by: Emylissan on 28/04/2007 22:05:17 Originally by: KaerBerohs In reality in space weight has no influence. Weight is a direct result of gravity and since there's none in space it does not apply! You could push a aircraft-carrier away with your own hands. Reality in space is not the same as on earth. The physics are totally different in vaccum! What you do have is mass and mass does influence the outcome of the agility of the ships, but I'm not really sure if cargo mass is also used in the calculations. Based on your own words, you wont be able to accelerate the aircraftcarrier, you would accelerate yourself cause the mass of it is bigger than your own. All what counts is mass and force. The force of your muscules and the mass of two objects. ----------------------------------------------------- Everyone who finds a type error can keep it. -----------------------------------------------------

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