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Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:11:00 - [31] Originally by: Sun Win Here is my dramatic recreation of this thread. OP: "Hey guys, what if there were race specific shiptypes, kinds of ships that only one race would make?" Nain Banks (aka MISTER SHOUTY): "What Eve really needs is race specific bonuses that you get at birth." Rest of Eve: "Uh, that would punish everyone who A didn't know what race was what when they started or B chose a race before this idea existed and have invested tears in their characters." MISTER SHOUTY: "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU GUYS?!?! YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT THIS CHANGE WAS COMING AND PLANNED ACCORDINGLY!!!!!!" Rest of Eve: "Uh calm down man, it just doesn't seem like a good idea." MISTER SHOUTY: "EVE NEEDS THIS, GOD, PICK A NEW RACE, GROW A BRAIN WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?!?" Rest of Eve: "But..." MISTER SHOUTY: "OH FINE, I'LL SOLVE IT BY ALSO INTRODUCING MAGIC RACE CHANGING CEREMONIES. YOU GUYS HAVE TURDS FOR BRAINS. SHUT UP." Rest of Eve: "Dude, for serious, calm down. It just doesn't seem like a very good idea." MISTER SHOUTY: "I'LL KILL YOU. I'LL KILL ALL OF YOU. EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG. I INVENTED LIGHT AND HAPPINESS. I AM THE GOD OF THE AMARR BOW BEFORE...." zap (falls unconsious) Cloning technician: "Sorry about that, everyone. Looks like this clone got infected with a Jovian virus. Don't worry, like stupidity, it's probably not contagious." ====Curtain===== Little advice: Be careful when you fly empire space, concord may just blow you up for whatever drugs you are on have have in your cargo hold. now call me silly, but I don't talk in caps, I don't should and hell I want someone to come up with some viable reasons for why some things are bad or if the concept can be expanded. You know mmo's need to be expanded, enhanced. New features and concepts worked on and introduced. You can call it yelling but really if people just give realistic counters to an idea that is a little more intelligent than "erk hik I dunno think hik a good idea, maybe." then allot of great ideas in the forums would develop. Ofcourse if your incapable of that then by all means create a 2nd MISTER SHOUTY said this reply. It may just stick and I can use it as a sig. You see I have no problem been an arse hole, not problem at all, because stupidity and the box syndrome reminds me of all things WoW. So bounce some idea, tell me why it wouldn't be cool, I mean do we all realy think that beyond a portrait nothing matters.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:19:00 - [32] i think the op meant: The only race that has battleships is amarr Only race with a titan is... blalblabla You can still train everything (btw these examples are a bit drastic i realise that but you could always make it more subtle, with only 1 race with a freighter, 1 race that has uber logistics, stuff like that
Marquis Dean Energy. Insurgency	Posted - 2007.04.29 19:23:00 - [33] Originally by: Nian Banks I'm thinking your brain has been possessed by a floating turd that happened to float up into your dunny while you were having a little r&r. And thats because your comment just smacks of in the little box syndrome. So when you decide to leave that little box and try the world of thought and reason and a little bit of brain storming let us know. Wow, what a comeback. I got pwned. Yes I did. Ok, in brief, you shockingly stubborn retard: Eve has NEVER EVER been about what race the player's character is. All players are free to train whatever the hell they please, and that's great. One important way in that Eve is better than WoW is that you are free to choose any profession and do anything you like with your time. In WoW you cannot start a char off as an Orc Warrior (or whatever) and then decide you prefer to be sneaky, you have to stay being an orc Warrior. That is lame. Eve is beautiful because you can be any number of professions, or all of them, specialising to a different degree. Any race can fly any race's ships and can fit whatever weapons they want on them and fly them anywhere, and that is a very good thing. It is totally freeform. What you propose is limiting players of a certain race to fly their own race's ships, or miss out on a massively significant bonus (see my example in an earlier post, 25% damage is ALOT). Players would pretty much have to fly ships of their own race, or be nerfed in some way compared to other pilots that stuck to their own race. You saying all Caldari pilots should be screwed for solo PvP? They'd have to fly Caldari ships, which shieldtank and so cannot tackle effectively with their mids. That's the sort of mess this change would represent. This runs totally contrary to the nature of Eve, and I strongly suspect it would be the final nail in the coffin of Eve's already increasingly shaky PvP, and CCP would lose alot of subscriptions because of it. Hence, it would be bad for Eve. And thus, it is a deeply stupid idea. Satisfied? --- Originally by: Tista i dont like you much but i'm going to agree with you on that.
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:10:00 - [34] If the idea is to have extra bonuses for an Amarr pilot flying an Amarr ship, then I like it. You can still go the whole hog and choose whatever ship you want to fly, as well as you could fly it before hand (because it's not a negative thing to other ships, it's just a positive thing to your own race's ships), you can just fly your own race's ships better. If you mean each race has it's own little niche ship class (i.e. minelayer/sweeper for Gallente or something) but not limit the training of that skill to anyone, then again I like it. (This seems to tie in with the talks about what T3 might be - very, very specialised ships). However, if only Gallente can train the 'minesweeper/minelayer' skill, then forget it. I joined this game for the variety - getting to lvl 60 in a class then creating a new character doesn't do it for me. -J --------------------------------- "He who 'hah hahs' last, 'hah hahs' best." - Nelson Balanced != Nerfed
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:21:00 - [35] Thank you for replying with a reasonably intelligent counter, It does actually pay to be stubborn sometimes! Anyway I agree, a 25% bonus would be seriously unbalanced PvP, That's why I didn't suggest it, I suggested a 1-5% bonus (that's 5% maximum) For the idea of each race having a unique ship class or ship, when faction warfare comes out that would become a balancing nightmare, in fact the way each ship performs now is bad enough without adding unique ships types to a race. Right now tho. Caldari needs more gun ships. Amarr need a heavy buff. Minmatar need a real ewar module. Gallente needs a minor nerf in some areas and some buffs in others. Faction warfare has been pushed back because of those kinds of problems. We all know that, so any idea must be in moderation and not go overboard, I consider that on anything suggested. Now your worried about in-balance and the rogue wanting to be a warrior problem, yeah that will certainly put a nail in eves coffin, Still a little bit of difference can be good in a game, but in as I said 'moderation', we want eve to stay as open as possible but not to become bland. So you say its a terrible idea to be able to do a science fiction idea of genetic engineering to be say an Amarrian / Caldari. Or an Amarrian / Gallente? So why is it bad? Its flavour, adds a bit of fluff to the game and other ideas could be extrapolated upon such a thing. Still you do know that mmo's when they get older get more inconsequential features just to give the players something new to do don't you? It could be worse, we may one day have in game marriages... lol.
Aakron Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.04.29 20:38:00 - [36] I disagree with this idea, variety and choice are important, if I suddenly decide to crosstrain ships I dont want to miss out on some extra bonus ---
Sin Angel Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:17:00 - [37] Only if i can change my race.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.29 21:56:00 - [38] No Way. No. Simply. For all the reasons stated, no, no and no. To put it in a sentence: Eve is about being able to change from 0 on every time you choose it. If I am a Caldari industrialist since birth, I have the potential to be as good as a Gallente PVPer at flying a Megathron. You can choose your race and train your skills with a definite freedom. I do not want a change that will make two characters (any two characters) forever and ever unable to be equal at something. Anything. Bad idea. WOWish. If someone chooses to train something, EVE is about being able to eventually become as good as anyone else at it.
Aigiarm	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:11:00 - [39] What I got from Mr. Forums original post, was that he would like to see more of a difference in ship design. Not so much a racial difference as a difference in schools of thought as far as engineering goes. It makes perfect sense. This doesn't mean that a Matari character gets a better bonus, just that if he wants he could tailor his fighting style more by picking a different ship. Its seems like devs are moving away from this and blending everything together into vanilla mush. ItÆs a way to give the races some flavor without screwing the patriot.
Zulana Chas	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:35:00 - [40] Question really is this , do you want to make the race you opted to start with the key or your standing? If you follow the story line of the game then you really want it to be standing vs race . so maybe what it means is having modules that with the correct standing with either a faction or a corp allow one to use an item thats is slightly stronger. Reason not to do just based on race would be the obvious that you can do nothing now if you wish to use a certain item. But my thought it be corp or faction based and at a module not a ship level so you would need a certain standing to fit a module. Peace
Paper Airplane Odessa Operations Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.29 22:39:00 - [41] bad idea imo, too hard to implement well and that time would be better spent on other things
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.04.30 05:52:00 - [42] Originally by: Zulana Chas Question really is this , do you want to make the race you opted to start with the key or your standing? If you follow the story line of the game then you really want it to be standing vs race . so maybe what it means is having modules that with the correct standing with either a faction or a corp allow one to use an item thats is slightly stronger. Reason not to do just based on race would be the obvious that you can do nothing now if you wish to use a certain item. But my thought it be corp or faction based and at a module not a ship level so you would need a certain standing to fit a module. Peace Thats a better idea, I like that one. What if you could get your ships upgraded with a bonus for a fee if you have the appropriate standing with that ships race? So your caldari but fly gallente ships, if you do a heap of gallente missions and eventually get high standing with the Gallente Federation you can have your Gallente ships retrofitted with a nice bonus at a gallente station. That doesn't lock you in to anything, anyone can eventually do it but it still takes effort and time. If you wanted it to be faction modules only, then you just have it that it can only be installed at a gallente station because its installation requires some high level secret knowledge. ?
Nazlfrag III	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:04:00 - [43] From the OP: "Today all the races has an equal amount of ships in the same category" (well except amaar frigates.. grumble) but the thing is, those ships are not equal. Each is specialized racially. Any pilot should be able to train any ship to any speciality. On the racial side, what you suggest isn't a small boost to each race, its a major nerf to anyone not flying their races ships. Which is a heck of a lot of players. I'd say a vast majority have skills in more than one racial ship. You want diversity in ships - its already there. Same with skills. You can play to racial stereotypes in what ships you train, what weapons you train, what ewar/tanking skills etc, or you can diversify and do it as you see fit, the choice is already there.
Kunming Outcasts	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:27:00 - [44] This thread is comedy gold Btw Nian just be quite dude.. for sake of ur own credibility! Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.04.30 07:33:00 - [45] Originally by: Kunming This thread is comedy gold Btw Nian just be quite dude.. for sake of ur own credibility! Ey don't spoil my fun, I am loving this. You should know, insanity is the best state of mind.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.04.30 08:37:00 - [46] Originally by: Aakron I disagree with this idea, variety and choice are important, if I suddenly decide to crosstrain ships I dont want to miss out on some extra bonus qft, pretty much summarizes the entire thread. not a good idea tbh :) interesting, but not appropriate for EVE. __________________________________ <-- Behold, the eve-o forums
Zalathar Minmatar Biometaloid INC	Posted - 2007.04.30 09:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Nian Banks Blood Brother, you exchange blood with your blood brother, a member of that race, in so doing you must be a member of their corporation and must have a standing with that race of no less than 1.0, This is performed at a ceremonial hall and then you are generically modified to be half/half of the race you have decided upon. (The Ceremonial hall is a new installation in some stations of empire, there must be a medical centre in the station also). BLOOD BROTHERS??? this is eve online, and not world of warcraft, or any other such "epic" fantasy games, with magic, glittery powders, elves with pointy ears and shining swords, and magic ceremonies. so blood brothers is a defnate NO-NO in a game which relies on logic and probabilty, and not stupid ideas and half brained schemes. So, any form of ritual like this would be ridiculous, and would make this game loose its intelligence and credability, which diferentiates it form all the other MMOs Nian Banks, why dont you just go back to WoW, where you should feel quite at home with people with IQs at about room temperature. ~~~~~~ sig currently being remastered (it was too large) ~~~~~~
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.30 10:37:00 - [48] Edited by: Neuromandis on 30/04/2007 10:33:15 To the last posts about retrofitting ships and better modules through standings: What you propose is already there: they are called "navy/federal/whatever" issue ships. Navy mega, Navy raven and the like. It' not retrofitting, it's brand new but the idea is the same. So, your wish is granted, go grind some level 4's to get your own. What's left are faction modules being available through missions and the like for your second part - i'm all for that if you want. As long as my character's race has nothing to do with it.
Gozmoth Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:20:00 - [49] Edited by: Gozmoth on 30/04/2007 11:17:04 Edited by: Gozmoth on 30/04/2007 11:16:47 Originally by: mr forum Today all the races has an equal amount of ships in the same category (cruisers,battleships, hac etc etc) All except Amarr ... (as usual) So first, give us the missing frigate ! :p
Nianfur	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:22:00 - [50] Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 30/04/2007 10:33:15 To the last posts about retrofitting ships and better modules through standings: What you propose is already there: they are called "navy/federal/whatever" issue ships. Navy mega, Navy raven and the like. It' not retrofitting, it's brand new but the idea is the same. So, your wish is granted, go grind some level 4's to get your own. What's left are faction modules being available through missions and the like for your second part - i'm all for that if you want. As long as my character's race has nothing to do with it. Actually I was thinking of something thats quite a bit more modest in bonuses, Faction ships deserve their high place, they are expensive and hard to get, they also give excellent bonuses. What I was thinking maybe more of a modest +5-10% (max) bonus that that race would do for you for their race specific ships. All of them, every frigate to every battleship. Each ship having a different possible bonus. Its just another nice thing people can get, Oh and the bonus is lost when the ship is repackaged. Like a rig. But your faction modules through missions, yeah that's wicked, If anything comes of any of this thread that would be the one thing I would expect everyone would say yes to. Who doesn't want to be offered a faction module for lp or storylines? On the next comment, Yes its unlikely CCP hasn't realised the missing amarr frigate yet and the myriad of threads, if they are decent people you should expect it to come with the amarr buff just over the horizon. If you get a petition going many would /sign.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:51:00 - [51] I think we considered this in beta.. I think we decided against it.. I think that was the right thing to do.. /me does the blasphemy thing: See if I'm a prancy little e.. no wait lets take it from the other side: If I'm a big bad smash all warrior orcish type and I try to wear really flimsy elfish armour what will happen? I will rip it apart every time I flex my oversized awe inspiring biceps yes? /me puts on his sane EvE clothes again Thing is.. from a background or roleplaying point of view: We're all humans. Wether you were create in the caldari state or born into amarrian slavery/riches, you're still a human being. There is no reason at all for any faction specific boni in eve. It's not like I can't find someone to make me a Raven or summin.. Now what you could do (which has also been considered briefly I think) is making certain ships faction related. Then by chosing a faction's side you would get somesort of benefit. Again this was scrapped because there are already some benefits to have a high standing with a faction. In fact that might be boosted when Faction Wars comes out soon (ok maybe not soon but SOONÖ at least). So in all: bad idea, let's not.. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Dominique Vasilkovsky Techmart Industries	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:55:00 - [52] The race you are will never affect anything but your start attributes and avatar. It is against the EVE philosophy to implement bonuses depending on what race that use a ship/module/whatever so just forget about it. Screw t3. I'm waiting for t20. Just like t2, but it's free. - xArmagedunx
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.30 13:09:00 - [53] And, let's not forget that starting attributes do not affect your effectiveness, only the time to get there. Also, learning skills and implants fortunately close the gap for this difference.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.04.30 13:31:00 - [54] Originally by: Neuromandis And, let's not forget that starting attributes do not affect your effectiveness, only the time to get there. Also, learning skills and implants fortunately close the gap for this difference. Ok erm guys we have moved past the race specific WoW jokes already, now its about faction standing and non faction ships been customised slightly if you have high standing. Oh and faction mods been offered in storyline / lp. Racial Bonuses = No longer on the table. Its gone, its shot. Its been murdered and dumped in a concrete filled wheelie bin to the bottom of the deepest lake around. Were now onto something thats good for mmo's, faction standings.
Sin Angel Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.30 14:02:00 - [55] Not everyone runs missions and gains standings so you would be screwing those people over.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.04.30 14:10:00 - [56] Originally by: Sin Angel Not everyone runs missions and gains standings so you would be screwing those people over. That's true, but then when faction warfare eventually comes out, one assumes you will get faction standing from killing the enemy. Its a fair assumption isn't it? Also most game companies want their players to experience the majority of the game. and most pvp games still require you to do a little pve to keep your equipment, expendables, cash up. and before we have faction warfare amarr need a big buff.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2007.04.30 14:24:00 - [57] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 30/04/2007 14:23:35 I have always favored racial bonuses towards ships. Since I first started, the first thing I thought of was "I get a racial bonus because I'm that race." Well, I was wrong. But, I think something like that should be implemented. But, 5% is way too much. It'd have to be more like 3%. And not per level. Just period. Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky The race you are will never affect anything but your start attributes and avatar. It is against the EVE philosophy to implement bonuses depending on what race that use a ship/module/whatever so just forget about it. Also, this comment is so ignorant that I want to declare war on you for having such a statement that is not an opinion. Use your opinions, not your stubborn head. Untrue, anyway. Your starting character does more than give you starting attributes and a pretty (or hideous) avatar. It lets you participate in ingame roleplay events, forces you to consider what exactly your field will be, and what the attributes will do for you, and better yet, it gives you a family. For you to just shake that all away is pretty jerkish in my eyes. Sure I'm a pvper in EVE, but I respect the other aspects of the game as well. _________________ Burn.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.04.30 16:11:00 - [58] Quote: I could say its a shame, cry for you, even rip out my hair for you but sadly I don't realy care. The game needs a minor race specific bonus for racial ships. Realy the ships are designed for the race that flies them, give them that minor bonus. If you realy think its so ground breakingly terrible then hey lets all decide on one race and remove the rest, because there is no point in having races at all given your arguement. What you are missing is that there IS only one race in the game... Human. There are various factions, political and religious, that make them different. For one, there shouldn't be anything inherent in the DNA that makes a ship fly differently. Second, adding racial bonuses to racial ships would be a nightmare for balance. Third, it isn't needed in Eve. Having no racial differences means that you can start off as anything and eventually do anything, unlike WoW and the rest where what you start off as dictates what you'll do for the life of that character. It's an artificial limitation put into place so that you'll have to start another character to see what Class Y is like since you can't be both Class X and Class Y on the same character (as you can in Eve because there's no such thing as classes either). Don't be racist keep your starting choice orthogonal to what you want to do in the game. There's already enough differentiation in just your attributes (I wish they were all the same too) and your starting skills (completely acceptible because you should start off with knowledge that your faction teaches in its schools).
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.04.30 17:43:00 - [59] Originally by: Borasao Quote: I could say its a shame, cry for you, even rip out my hair for you but sadly I don't realy care. The game needs a minor race specific bonus for racial ships. Realy the ships are designed for the race that flies them, give them that minor bonus. If you realy think its so ground breakingly terrible then hey lets all decide on one race and remove the rest, because there is no point in having races at all given your arguement. What you are missing is that there IS only one race in the game... Human. There are various factions, political and religious, that make them different. For one, there shouldn't be anything inherent in the DNA that makes a ship fly differently. Second, adding racial bonuses to racial ships would be a nightmare for balance. Third, it isn't needed in Eve. Having no racial differences means that you can start off as anything and eventually do anything, unlike WoW and the rest where what you start off as dictates what you'll do for the life of that character. It's an artificial limitation put into place so that you'll have to start another character to see what Class Y is like since you can't be both Class X and Class Y on the same character (as you can in Eve because there's no such thing as classes either). Don't be racist keep your starting choice orthogonal to what you want to do in the game. There's already enough differentiation in just your attributes (I wish they were all the same too) and your starting skills (completely acceptible because you should start off with knowledge that your faction teaches in its schools). I could give more scifi reasons / explanations as to why different races would tweak their ships or equipment to perform better with their racial dna, even vanila SciFi such as Stargate has such ideas, look at the ancients and their technology. And thats just a current tv show, there are books upon books with such ideas. But anyway its neither here nor there now, because we are past that subject/idea. Now were onto faction standings and modest custom ship modification. Oh and faction modules been offered in storyline / lp. I believe the original op also would like to talk about the idea of race specific ships classes. It is an interesting idea, someone said it could be like gallente having mine layers / sweepers, maybe caldari having multi warhead missile platform... That sort of idea. It could be fun, different ships not stuck to the specific class types mould, Dunno tho, faction warfare would make it a nightmare to balance.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.04.30 18:45:00 - [60] Originally by: Nian Banks Perhaps they should just give a slight bonus to some ships when piloted by a member of that ships race. Ermm.. NO??? (my siggy here explains my reasons i think)

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