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Tactical Warfare in Eve -- Why CCP is Going the Wrong Way

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.28 19:33:00 - [1] The situation that CCP has been trying to fix for the past 4 years is the concept of "blob warfare". The problem is that these resolutions never really work. They up the HP and people just use more ships. So now they are talking about nerfing the damage from multiple opponents. Despite the fact that this makes no sense in a "suspension of disbelief", it represents a massive nerf to the newer players and the light ships. Some of the stuff in the new dev blog is frankly disturbing. They promise to represent a MAJOR nerf to the smaller ships in the game and the practice of tactical warfare. No, we don't need 20km smartbombs and area effect weapons that can insta-pop anything smaller than battleship at long range. That sort of weapon would totally remove the need for anything but a battleship in PVP and if you think blobbing is bad now, wait til then. All of this for people with lots of grape-derived alcoholic beverages and no creativity? What is the blob in Eve? Its stupidity. Frankly put AGONY has demonstrated numerous times that a blob is a useless entity. To describe, lets take your average blob. If I have 30 BS and the other guy has 25, he safespots and vice versa. There is the situation where the Blobs actually meet and they all primary one target and he insta-pops, They target a second and he instapops and so on. What is the defense to this? Frankly brains. You dont need 20 BS to take down one in short order. Consider 2 "blobs" of 20 BS. In one blob they all target one ship. The second "blob" divides their pilots into groups of 5 with independent primary calling. One ship gets hit by 20 guns and pops. 4 ships get hit by 5 guns on the other side and 4 of them die in the time it takes enemy fleet to re-target secondary and get the guns on it. The true blob spends more time targeting than shooting. There are a number of ways to attack a blob and those ways are only limited by your imagination. So what is the difference between a blob and a fleet? The difference is simply that the fleet uses tactics and strategy and the blob just says "come out in your bs and get here quick." Agony has put together countless gangs of new players to pvp, organized them, trained them, skilled them and turned them into an organized fleet that does many fantastic things. You need merely visit the class killboard at www.agony-unleashed.com to see the effect of a FLEET. These fleets do so well because they are trained in tactics the setups are managed and the gangs are disciplined. There isn't a gaggle of geese on Ventrilo, the gagglers get muted and the geese are managed. Now if we can turn a bunch of newbies to PvP into a lethal, effective fighting force, why cant the players with PvP experience do it? The answer to that question is the main problem CCP is futily trying to fix. There are two problems with Eve PvP. Pilots are risk averse and lazy. First of all many pilots are risk averse. You get their BS killed and they hate you, threaten to leave corp and so on. They are so risk averse that they wont engage unless they have a pure overkill. Engagements like on our recent "school day" video release are rare in Eve. Agony pilots are told not to even undock in anything they cant afford to lose. Its as simple as that. Any pilot in a fleet with me as commander knows that I WILL engage in even odds battles when the situation merits and I will be fine with sustaining losses so long as I have an overall victory or chance of victory. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.28 19:33:00 - [2] Edited by: Rells on 28/04/2007 19:29:55 When it comes to laziness, the trend in eve is amazing. There are thousands of pilots that don't care to synchronize, train tactics, think of strategy or develop new warfare techniques. Their idea of tactics is "everyone warp in at optimal and hit f1 through f8". Occasionally this is supplemented by the absolutely stupid advice of "mr newbie to corp get in an incurses with a point and go tackle for me." Never have so many new players been so abused as cannon fodder and taught such BAD ideas. Agony has managed to show that through tactics a fleet of frigs alone can be a very powerful force in the game. This requires these pilots to have 5 hours of training just to be a BEGINNER. To be a captain in agony you are looking at 200 hours of just reading and class work alone. The result is that agony pilots are lethal with much less than our opponents. So why say this? Smack talk? Saying how great we are? Well to be honest I am intensely proud of the pilots of AGONY. Seeing a single player 4 months into the game solo an interceptor in a tech 1 frigate or seeing a previously timid pvper turn into a great fleet commander has made me proud. However, that isnt the point of this post. The point of this post is that if we can do tactics, so can YOU. Yes, all of the player in the game can choose to set aside the blob and think of new ways to use their ships. They can learn new tactics and develop new warfare methods but only IF THEY CHOOSE to. They can not be forced. The lazy and risk averse can not be pushed into not being lazy and thinking about ships as disposable unless they want to. They can DECIDE to change their ways but not a dang thing that CCP can do will change those that don't want to. If you nerf damage of multiple ships, people will get bigger ships and just use 50 ships instead of 20. Instead of nerfing the blob, you encourage it. Area effect weapons will NERF not the blob of BS nearly as much those using tactics and mixed fleets. Distance EWAR (think EMP pulse missiles) is something interesting but the fleet movement system (warp in a sphere) makes that problematic at best. All of this will not solve the problems of Risk Averse or Lazy pilots. When it comes down to it, the players have the option of how to do engagements. There are no magic formulas in Eve and AGONY has proven how a small force can be effective against the blobs and the unorganized. Its up to the players to solve the problems of blobbing, not CCP. If CCP continues going down this road, they risk debacles like the Nanophoon and other massively unbalancing destructive influences in the game. The solutions to blobs? Avoid them, outmaneuver them, outsmart them with tactics. Rushing headlong against a brick wall is unproductive. Disassemble it brick by brick. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.28 19:53:00 - [3] Originally by: Mobius instead they go, "i've always done it this way y change make ccp change to me." That is one of the primary problems my friend. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 01:51:00 - [4] Originally by: HaiMyNameIsBlindMan meh eve doesn't really have enough ways to use tactics anymore and that's what creates the blob because more numbers > the tiny increase in uberness from tactics Eve has huge opportunities for using tactics. If you cant think of any than that is YOUR failing, not Eve's. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 01:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Elmicker Anyway, to the OP: all the engagements that you, as an Agony pilot, cite as evidence that the blob are inneffective are small/medium-scale gang engagements. I'm sure that had you encountered a large bubble and 30 snipers, the engagements would have went the way of the snipers. It would have been a field day for agony. The fact is we don't walk into garbage like that. People don't snipe around us much because we will drop a fleet on them and ewar on their friends so that they are sitting ducks. That isn't magic, its effective use of recon forces and ewar. Originally by: Elmicker Small ship combat =/= Fleet scale 0.0 combat. Sure, a well-trained cruiser pilot can take on 3-4 of the same class and win, but since the nano nerf, what BS pilot can say that? BSs cannot maneuver. Once you remove maneuverability, it comes down to who can sit there, take the kicking and deal out the most damage; and lets face it, what does this better than 50 BSs 200km away alpha-striking everything they see? Agony are doing a lot more than small ships. Small ships are used in beginner classes for obvious reasons. Agony pilots fly everything from frigs to carriers. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 02:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Swindy Pilots are averse to risk because a loss is a real loss; losing even a poorly fitted BS is the equivalent of lighting $5 on fire. Losing a faction fitted BS? A whole lot more than that. Losing a Titan? Well, that's a mortgage payment. Please stop. This is just pathetic. What you want is safety then stay out of pvp and in empire. Once you go into pvp are you going to have some guts and take on the fight or just flee from anything remotely dangeorus. If you cant afford the ship you are in, get in something smaller. Smaller isnt useful? "LOL a fleet of destroyer n00bs" a pilot was recently quoted as saying when encountering the PVP-WOLFPACKS class. 5 minutes later he was in his clone and his faction raven was a pile of flaming wreckage. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 03:52:00 - [7] So then fly something smaller. You dont have to bring the faction BS on every gang. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 04:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Del Narveux Or they will just blob, because thats easier and less risk. Its the path of least resistance. And those that employ tactics will rip their heart out. SO what is the problem? Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 04:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot What they should do is.... 1. The more ships in your fleet, the larger your sig amplification = Easier and faster to be lock. 2. The more ships in your fleet, the more local ECM noise = You take longer to lock onto enemies. Takes time to break through the surrounding noise. 3. Fleet damage bleed through. If you are in a fleet you will take a percentage of the damage that anyone else takes. It might only be 0.1%, but if the other fleet are calling 10 primaries then you are getting 10 lots of bleed through. Call it flak. 4. Beyond a certain number of ships and you get Friendly fire flak. A percetage of all damage inflicted by your fleet is returned upon you. I could go on, but there are a multitude of ways to discourage Blobs without killing gang and smaller fleet warfare. Again that nerfs large organized fleets and people would simply not fleet up and show up with 200 single ships or single, unaffiliated squads.. So not only would all of this not solve the "intended" problem, it would make the use of tactics DETEREMENTAL to combat. Talk about going the WRONG direction. Are you really trying to encourage more unorganized warfare? There is no "anti blob" method that fails to hit tactical warfare harder than stupid warfare and all of these anti-blob tactics simply wouldnt work. Do we want to tell every new player that they have to train solid for a year before they can go PVP? Suggestions such as yours would ruin the game. You have to consider the overall impact of your suggestions, not just what you intend. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 06:14:00 - [10] It is quite interesting seeing people like IAC come here saying "of course 10 tech 1 frigs can take out a BS" when they have never tried it and I know for a fact there have been IAC pilots that have laughed at the notion as being rediculous. The reality is that 10 untrained, uncoordinated frigates wouldnt have a prayer of taking out a BS. The people taking out the BS were coordinated, integrated and worked as a team using ewar as well as a number of personal player skills. This is a fleet. a coordinated entity that has the ability to execute tactics. This is why smartbombing BSes die to these gangs without taking out a single ship. No matter how you slice it and no matter how many salient points you ignore, the issue will still be the lazyness, lack of creativity and risk aversion that drags Eve into blobs. Quite frankly I hope Eve still blobs and CCP does nothing about it because that will make people either adapt or die. If you care to warp in 50 poeple to kill one just because its safe, I cant wait to encounter them, use tactics, and wipe the floor with them. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?

Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.29 06:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Rocinantae As one of Rells' neighbors I can say they definetly make you think out of the box. In my short time in eve I have seen alot of different command styles. The most would be static people that mindlessly blob without considering out manuevering them somehow. We defintley are thinking more out of the box strats. And if its because of being agonys neighbor so be it. I know what you mean about the different types of strats that could be employed. This is a 3 dimensional game, people shoiuld think that way more. Anyway I better shut up before the ceo yells at me for fraternising with the enemy. OFcourse these are only my opinions and you better hope no one starts listening to me. ;-D We have no enemies, only opponents. Once you get emotional about PvP you are screwed. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.30 05:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Kldraina This is a game. Most players are interested in having fun. A lot of people aren't going to be interested in spending the effort and time required to become good trained pilots. The mark of a good commander, is the ability to make effective use of what's available. So you are arguing that CCP should cater to stupid, lazy, arrogant players who think you should just compare isk at the warp in and the one with the fewest isk blows up? The entire focus of this game has been on tactics and allowing the newer, trained player to take out the more experienced player who is lazy. If you want your SP to be the only thing that matters there are dozens of games out there that will accomodate you. Dont petition to screw this one up. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.30 05:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Ischia My preference is for damage to suffer stacking penalties much like everything else in EVE. I've said it before, and noone has disagreed: 60 cruise missiles, all with 300m radius, hitting one 460m radius target in the same 1 second interval, should not all do full damage. The first 10-20 to blow up will probably take all the others with them. I will disagree with you. An aircraft carrier in RL is a lot smaller than 500 m3 and if you hit it with 200 cruisae missiles the later ones wouldnt do less damage just because the previous hit. The physics of the explosive is the same and there is a LOT if area to hit with on a 500 m3 target. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.04.30 16:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Beef Hardslab I like how somehow 23 frigs/dessies/whatever are a "fleet" and in no way a "blob", simply because they all fit ewar and flee from any force a quarter of their size or more. Congratulations on being the first to post to this thread with outright smacktalk and nothing rational in the way of contribution to the discussion. You must be proud! I think I will pass answering on this as I pass on responding to any of the rest of the smacktalk, often vulgar and obscene, you guys sling around in local. Make a rational, reasoned, intelligent post and I will be happy to reply. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.05.01 20:06:00 - [15] Originally by: G***Juice Edited by: G***Juice on 01/05/2007 03:20:14 I think whoever posted 'Line of Sight' as a possible solution should be given a billion isk. There's no reason that my missiles should go straight through my buddies and hit my target. Nope, none at all. Want to employ tactics and kill blobs? Introduce some more realism instead of using the nerf bat. LOS would be impossible given latency issues and the complexity of calculations. Until we all run 40 GHz 16 core computers and have T1 nets speeds, that kind of data flow isnt feasible. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.05.01 20:10:00 - [16] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Rells, you've said that anything detrimental to blobs is going to have a similar effect on your (more organised) 'fleets'. What would you say to a large area of effect missile with a low explosion velocity, around the 200m/s mark, and a very low falloff? The relevant factor from the missile damage formula is exp[-(Target Velocity - Missile Explosion Velocity )^2 /(falloff)^2] For a missile with a 200m/s explosion velocity and a 50m/s falloff, this becomes: exp[-(Target Velocity - 200)^2/2500] If such a missile did 3000 base damage, anything moving at 200m/s or slower would take full damage. A ship moving at 300m/s, however, would only take ~55 damage, and at 350m/s a ship would take less than 1 damage. This is the sort of thing that I would like to see stealth bombers firing come this summer, but what do other people think? It may seem a bit overpowered, but there are plenty of possible answers to it, including defender missiles. Also, it uses existing game mechanics and would not generate any more lag than existing weapons already do. First of all, AGONY flies a lot more than frigs. Lord Vodka recently thought all we had was frigs and dessys, smacktalked about it and was .... uh ... educated. That being out of the way, what you describe would lead to the new superweapon of eve. Every battleship with those missiles fitted or 100 bombbers with those. Whoever shoots first pops half the enemy fleet in one shot. You must not think about only how a thing will be used but how it will be "abused". The inetrial stabs was a great example of creating a superweapon accidentally. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.05.04 16:14:00 - [17] Originally by: OneSock Risk Aversion ? Too right. ships are too expensive and it takes too long grinding missions to be able to risk anything decent in combat. Take a zero off the cost of a ship and I'd be out solo/gang PVP every day. It would be a blast. I'd compare it to a FPS. Would you rather play an FPS where each round takes 1 hour and if you are shot once you are dead and have to wait another hour before you can play again. Or would you play an FPS where each round take 15 minutes and if your health reaches zero you have to wait 1 minute before respawning ? I'd go with the latter choice every time. Then you just arent right for the game. This game is a game where the risk is what makes the pvp interesting. you would be much better off in a game like WOW where you risk nothing when you go into combat. For those that actually enjoy the risk, I would suggest you fly something smaller and cheaper. You don't have to go out in the 200 million isk HAC but rather a simple tech 1 frigate or destroyer will do the trick. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.05.11 03:49:00 - [18] Well now we know CCP isnt listneing to anything we say. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.05.16 16:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Baraak Tizhaan My own solution would probably break the server. If line of sight weapons didn't pass through intervening objects, blob fleets would have to dispurse. Reasoning? The possibility of friendly fire damage or fire control systems wouldn't fire if a friendly was in the way. The same could be said for most items used as weapons: NOS, Nuet, Scram, Web, EWAR etc. How do these devices work? They evidently propogate by some beam effect. So what would happen if another ship interposed itself between the agressor and the target? Surely it would be shielded, even if momentarily. Sadly, I would imagine that this would probably cause even more lag. It's a shame really, that the lag can't be aportioned so that small fleets suffer less lag than the bigger ones e.g. 10 man fleet suffers no lag against its 200 man fleet enemy, which suffers bad lag. That would certainly stop people using bigger fleets. First of all that would be impossible because of the intensity of calculations of LOS. Second of all it is not necessary as things stand NOW. Poeple CHOOSE to blob, it is not forced on them. People blob becuase they are lazy, risk averse, uncreative, dont think tactically and become selfish. None of these issues is something CCP can solve and I wish they would stop trying. Making the game easier for the un-tactically minded, un-creative idiots is NOT the right direction. Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?

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