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Captain Campion Campion Corp. 50	Posted - 2017.03.05 18:25:46 - [1] - Quote Yesterday I jumped out of my expensive implants and went on a public roam. After the roam I got back into my implants asap for faster training. That was the smartest thing I could do at the time. Today, I heard there's another public fleet, I didn't know about it yesterday so couldn't plan ahead. But there's a timer until I can clone jump again. I've trained up the skills to reduce the timer, but it still means I can't go on today's roam without risking my expensive clone, and that's not worth it. So I'm logging off for today. Fun ruined because of implants.
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5335	Posted - 2017.03.05 18:27:34 - [2] - Quote No, fun ruined because of risk aversion. There's no timer if you jump between clones in the same citadel, and there's no timer if you just use a clone with two +3 implants and don't even pretend to care about the fourteen entire days of training you lose in a full year compared with +5s.
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2939	Posted - 2017.03.05 18:31:23 - [3] - Quote More like fun ruined because someone cannot inform themselves. This was mentioned in one of the Upwell Structure introduction dev blogs as well but I cannot find that one at the moment. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Captain Campion Campion Corp. 50	Posted - 2017.03.05 19:24:07 - [4] - Quote No noobs, I didn't know about today's fleet so couldn't plan for it.
Kenrailae mind games. Suddenly Spaceships. 746	Posted - 2017.03.05 19:45:39 - [5] - Quote Even so, you still coulda went to a public citadel with a clone bay, installed a new clone, and then jumped to it :/ The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Wanda Fayne 545	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:16:52 - [6] - Quote So because you don't make any suggested change or improvement, this is basically a whine thread. your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic -Lan Wang- - Locator Agents cease to function on Offline Players:
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3886	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:17:34 - [7] - Quote Regardless of all the hate being thrown by oh look, the usual suspects, you are right. CCP has even acknowledged you are right before that attribute implants and even attributes are bad game play. They however were too afraid of impacting the LP market to remove attribute implants from the game at the time without having additional new ways to spend LP ready to go to.
Captain Campion Campion Corp. 50	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:22:49 - [8] - Quote Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway).
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6053	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:26:24 - [9] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Regardless of all the hate being thrown by oh look, the usual suspects, you are right. CCP has even acknowledged you are right before that attribute implants and even attributes are bad game play. They however were too afraid of impacting the LP market to remove attribute implants from the game at the time without having additional new ways to spend LP ready to go to. And it looks like CCP took some steps to mitigate that, Quote: If you jump clone to a clone you have at the Upwell structure you are currently located in, then you receive no activation delay to jump clone again.--link Looks like there was a way for him to avoid this problem, but he is so risk averse he has not availed himself of this option. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6053	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:27:25 - [10] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). Go use a citadel...no JC timers. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Matthias Ancaladron Wrath of Angels Solitaire. 160	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:29:45 - [11] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). I think 6 hours is good. 19 hours is a very weird number. If the base is 24 make the skill reduce it by 3-4 per level.
Kenrailae mind games. Suddenly Spaceships. 748	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:30:00 - [12] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). The problem inherent with timers is WHY. In this case, the timer is NOT there to stop you from switching JC's in same system/station. Citadels negated that. Put up a couple astrahus, fit clone bays, jump around clones all day with a quick shuttle ride over to the other citadel. The Clone timer exists these days rather to attempt to stop instant travel from one area of Eve to another. Now, yes, you can get almost anywhere in Eve these days in a travel ceptor in a reasonable amount of time, but it still takes the time and 'effort' to do it, where if I could just JC between a clone in metropolis, syndicate, The Forge and Deklien all day, that would be bad. Yeah, a travel ceptor can still get you pretty much anywhere in an hour or less, but once you get there, if you haven't prestaged stuff/not getting stuff from someone else, you only have the ceptor to work with. It's a challenging compromise between trying to stop people from being able to go anywhere in Eve at the blink of an eye, and trying to relax some of the old, outdated systems like JC timers, attribute/effect clones, etc. The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Matthias Ancaladron Wrath of Angels Solitaire. 160	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:31:53 - [13] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Captain Campion wrote: Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). Go use a citadel...no JC timers. Citadel aren't available to everyone in some places. If the functionality is there for cits there's no reason for the same functionality to not already be present for stations.
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2940	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:36:41 - [14] - Quote This feature won't be available in stations because it is a unique feature that actually sets citadels apart from stations and makes them a tiny bit useful. Furthermore, public citadels are available all over high sec and in many low sec areas. All public fleets always start from a high sec or low sec station so this argument is invalid. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3886	Posted - 2017.03.05 20:52:04 - [15] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Looks like there was a way for him to avoid this problem, but he has not availed himself of this option. FIFY so you aren't being abusive...... However here is a legit question. If you jump clone normally, can you still swap at a citadel inside that timer. Or once you jump clone are you actually locked out of doing so. And CCp's citadel 'mitigation' still doesn't solve the major issue behind Attributes & attribute implants, it just makes it slightly less problematic for certain groups of people (mainly the large null groups)
Kenrailae mind games. Suddenly Spaceships. 748	Posted - 2017.03.05 21:00:42 - [16] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Looks like there was a way for him to avoid this problem, but he has not availed himself of this option. FIFY so you aren't being abusive...... However here is a legit question. If you jump clone normally, can you still swap at a citadel inside that timer. Or once you jump clone are you actually locked out of doing so. And CCp's citadel 'mitigation' still doesn't solve the major issue behind Attributes & attribute implants, it just makes it slightly less problematic for certain groups of people (mainly the large null groups) You can jump clone to another clone inside the same citadel at any time, regardless of timer status, as long as you have access rights to the clone bay AND the clone bay is online(fueled, turned on, etc). The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6053	Posted - 2017.03.05 21:17:24 - [17] - Quote Matthias Ancaladron wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Captain Campion wrote: Even something simple like reducing the timer to 1 hour would be alright for me. I still think that's long enough to stop people abusing the system (which I don't really think is a genuine concern anyway). Go use a citadel...no JC timers. Citadel aren't available to everyone in some places. If the functionality is there for cits there's no reason for the same functionality to not already be present for stations. There are public citadels that one can check out in terms of clone bays. Instantaneous travel has been seen as generally bad, if you don't have at least some minimal level of risk. There are groups in this game that could put caches of capitals all over the game, and then with instant JC people could move across the map and thus avoid jump fatigue. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6053	Posted - 2017.03.05 21:21:44 - [18] - Quote BTW, in looking at Danika's suggestion of having +3s in your PvP clone the loss in terms of SP over the course of an entire year is 2 million SP. This guy has been playing since 2006...or at least that is how old his character is. How many SP does this guy have? Seriously, you are still min-maxing past 160 million SP? Really? And you don't have the financial where-with-all at this point to afford possibly losing some +3s? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Captain Campion Campion Corp. 51	Posted - 2017.03.05 21:45:00 - [19] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: BTW, in looking at Danika's suggestion of having +3s in your PvP clone the loss in terms of SP over the course of an entire year is 2 million SP. This guy has been playing since 2006...or at least that is how old his character is. How many SP does this guy have? Seriously, you are still min-maxing past 160 million SP? Really? And you don't have the financial where-with-all at this point to afford possibly losing some +3s? Haven't been subbed the whole time, but yes your general point is true. I generally go on 1-2 public fleets a a week, and that's how eve fits around RL for me, so it makes sense to use implants during idle time. But it's not just about me. And just because you have ISK doesn't mean you should waste it. (same as RL money)
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6054	Posted - 2017.03.05 21:50:03 - [20] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: BTW, in looking at Danika's suggestion of having +3s in your PvP clone the loss in terms of SP over the course of an entire year is 2 million SP. This guy has been playing since 2006...or at least that is how old his character is. How many SP does this guy have? Seriously, you are still min-maxing past 160 million SP? Really? And you don't have the financial where-with-all at this point to afford possibly losing some +3s? Haven't been subbed the whole time, but yes your general point is true. I generally go on 1-2 public fleets a a week, and that's how eve fits around RL for me, so it makes sense to use implants during idle time. But it's not just about me. And just because you have ISK doesn't mean you should waste it. (same as RL money) It isn't wasting it. It is looking at the trade offs. Putting in cheap implants, and cheap is of course relative to your over all in game wealth, can be a viable alternative to always being in your high end implants. Personally, I became far less fixated on SP around 100 million SP. I don't have a clone that is a dedicated learning clone anymore, in part for this reason and also because of diminishing marginal returns with regards to SP. But the solution is use a public citadel with a clone bay, I'm on my way to Perimeter right now in an alt to check out some of the citadels there. If I find one with a clone bay open to the public I'll post here. Yes, Perimeter might not be the optimal location, but it does address your issue, and it shows that there are public citadels. See if there is one closer to where the public roams tend to start...or just log in a bit early and use a travel ceptor to get to the staging point of the public roam. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3890	Posted - 2017.03.05 21:54:31 - [21] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Personally, I became far less fixated on SP around 100 million SP. I don't have a clone that is a dedicated learning clone anymore, in part for this reason and also because of diminishing marginal returns with regards to SP. This is the key point. The people who keep saying attribute implants/attributes themselves should remain tend to be very old vets well past this mark on their mains. The younger someone is the stronger they are impacted by the negatives involved, and that isn't a good thing when Vets can leverage things like remaps better since they can just leave the alt training on one track for 6 months while it's unusable, while the real newer player has to train balanced and can't afford to risk implants either. Yes EVE isn't an SP game, but there is no great advantage to having the 'sit in station and do nothing' behaviour rewarded over people who are out there doing things, and at the end of the day that is what the entire attribute system actually does. Obviously no changes to jump clone needed on this front though, a different solution of removing attributes is the right one, then jump clones become about which implants you want for in space today, and people use cheap sets (like those low grade empire sets that boost sensor strength, hmm......) when being casual, empty clones when being super risky, or expensive sets when appropriate.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6054	Posted - 2017.03.05 21:55:47 - [22] - Quote Perimeter - GÿåGÿå IChooseYou Market That citadel will let you install a clone for free even. And I just jumped into the clone and right back out. Problem solved...maybe not perfectly, but there is a work around. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6054	Posted - 2017.03.05 21:58:37 - [23] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Personally, I became far less fixated on SP around 100 million SP. I don't have a clone that is a dedicated learning clone anymore, in part for this reason and also because of diminishing marginal returns with regards to SP. This is the key point. The people who keep saying attribute implants/attributes themselves should remain tend to be very old vets well past this mark on their mains. The younger someone is the stronger they are impacted by the negatives involved, and that isn't a good thing when Vets can leverage things like remaps better since they can just leave the alt training on one track for 6 months while it's unusable, while the real newer player has to train balanced and can't afford to risk implants either. Yes EVE isn't an SP game, but there is no great advantage to having the 'sit in station and do nothing' behaviour rewarded over people who are out there doing things, and at the end of the day that is what the entire attribute system actually does. Obviously no changes to jump clone needed on this front though, a different solution of removing attributes is the right one, then jump clones become about which implants you want for in space today, and people use cheap sets (like those low grade empire sets that boost sensor strength, hmm......) when being casual, empty clones when being super risky, or expensive sets when appropriate. Again, go to Perimeter - GÿåGÿå IChooseYou Market set up a PvP clone with no implants. Keep your training clone there. Jump back and forth all day with no timers at all. Just not seeing the big issue here. And another upshot, you are 1 jump from Jita, the largest market in game. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3891	Posted - 2017.03.05 22:09:55 - [24] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Again, go to Perimeter - GÿåGÿå IChooseYou Market set up a PvP clone with no implants. Keep your training clone there. Jump back and forth all day with no timers at all. Just not seeing the big issue here. And another upshot, you are 1 jump from Jita, the largest market in game. So that newbie has to spend 4 hours a day not in their training clone. So that newbie has to spend their first 6 months on a sub optimal attribute map because they have to train a range of skills and can't do what vets can do on their alts. And well, that newbie just lost their clone when the perimeter market wars blew the citadel up as well. And you don't see any problems here at all? Again,. this is not about jump clone timers, they are fine as they are, this is about the attribute system itself being bad for the game. Implants that affect your ship in space are good, timers based around that & travel are good, ability to swap between two sets of implants that affect your ship in space in a single location are good. Training clones however are bad.
Kenrailae mind games. Suddenly Spaceships. 752	Posted - 2017.03.05 22:11:20 - [25] - Quote In Part Nevyn. Older players also know what they are building a character for, so don't have to deal with the constant sidetracking, changing directions, bit of this, bit of that, that new players do. We also don't train to just 1's and 2's, but build alts to be optimized for their role. Another, IMO larger, part of the issue is the lack of focus new players have, because they're told to train this, read they should train that, see those and want to fly them, etc etc. I remember making those mistakes, and know a guy right now, sub 15m sp, who can fly cal, gal, and amarr bs, next door to a tengu, talos, mine, build, and so on. Course, those are all just pre-req's and whatever L1 or L2 skill is needed to sit those ships. Where in all that do Core skills go? Now, yes, all of this goes with lending credence to the removing attributes argument, but even when you do that, the problem is going to remain. Removing attributes is a step in the right direction, but it needs to go a bit further than that and be accompanied by further refinement of the NPE focusing on a 'yes you CAN train anything, but you also need to train what you do train well' shift. I don't think training implants are inherently bad, but they are definitely made worse by the attributes. Changing them from being +x to this attribute to +Y Sp/hr with the removal of attributes may be a viable middle ground. The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3817	Posted - 2017.03.05 22:22:51 - [26] - Quote I would, and do, follow danika's advice. I've never used +5's. Never had to worry about what head im in. And as ken says, attribute implants aren't bad. They are a choice like more powerful skill hardwiring implants or using higher meta mods. The way attributes work however might want overhauling. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3891	Posted - 2017.03.05 22:22:57 - [27] - Quote Kenrailae wrote: Now, yes, all of this goes with lending credence to the removing attributes argument, but even when you do that, the problem is going to remain. Removing attributes is a step in the right direction, but it needs to go a bit further than that and be accompanied by further refinement of the NPE focusing on a 'yes you CAN train anything, but you also need to train what you do train well' shift. I don't think training implants are inherently bad, but they are definitely made worse by the attributes. Changing them from being +x to this attribute to +Y Sp/hr with the removal of attributes may be a viable middle ground. I agree with the first part of that. Encouraging them to do an initial specialisation is important. But even then it would need them to train a bunch of different attribute maps, so even without all that jumping around attributes still hammer them. I'll agree to disagree on +y sp/hr implants being a good thing, because I still see it as a pay wall, and one that stops them using implants that actually benefit their ship as well. But you are right that it is a middle ground if CCP are too worried about the impact on the LP market to actually remove them, and allows for removing the worst part of the problem (the attributes themselves)
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6054	Posted - 2017.03.05 22:26:25 - [28] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Again, go to Perimeter - GÿåGÿå IChooseYou Market set up a PvP clone with no implants. Keep your training clone there. Jump back and forth all day with no timers at all. Just not seeing the big issue here. And another upshot, you are 1 jump from Jita, the largest market in game. So that newbie has to spend 4 hours a day not in their training clone. So that newbie has to spend their first 6 months on a sub optimal attribute map because they have to train a range of skills and can't do what vets can do on their alts. And well, that newbie just lost their clone when the perimeter market wars blew the citadel up as well. And you don't see any problems here at all? Again,. this is not about jump clone timers, they are fine as they are, this is about the attribute system itself being bad for the game. Implants that affect your ship in space are good, timers based around that & travel are good, ability to swap between two sets of implants that affect your ship in space in a single location are good. Training clones however are bad. Or just remove all attribute implants. Nobody should get a free ride here. Remove the implants and let them train at the rate without the implants. Problem also solved....of course, this will mean that the new players won't get the benefit of the enhanced training. This is the complaint? You get reduced training for 4 hours a day assuming you are going something high risk enough not to get into that training clone? BTW, somebody who has +5s is not really much of a new player, IMO. That is alot of ISK and already alot of training. So you get 4 hours/day of lowered training with +3s that is just over 394,000 SP a year. I think they can live with it. If somebody is going to quit because of that, feck 'em. And before you get indignant, they made a choice. They decided to get out of their learning clone and go PvP. Now crying about the lost SP from that decision strikes me as somebody who wants their cake and to eat it too. Everything comes with trade offs, in RL and in game. Grow up and deal with it like a big boy or girl. Edit: If you somehow managed to lose your learning clone during that 4 hours of PvP you are terrible. Log into your learning clone who is safe in a Perimeter station. Scoot over to the citadel. Check to see if it is in reinforced. If not, dock up, JC to the PVP clone, go have fun. If it is reinforced, check the timer to see if you are in danger of losing your learning clone. If not, JC and have fun, if it is, don't. You could even look to see if there is another station in Perimeter or even in another system that has a public clone bay. I mean holy mother of God, how much hand holding must be done here. Are we going to hold their pecker for them when the new player has to take ****? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Kenrailae mind games. Suddenly Spaceships. 754	Posted - 2017.03.05 22:42:39 - [29] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: I mean holy mother of God, how much hand holding must be done here. Are we going to hold their pecker for them when the new player has to take ****? You don't??? rrrrr..... well, this is awkward..... The Law is a point of View The NPE IS a big deal
Rivr Luzade Kenshin. DARKNESS. 2941	Posted - 2017.03.05 22:48:27 - [30] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Again,. this is not about jump clone timers, they are fine as they are, this is about the attribute system itself being bad for the game. Implants that affect your ship in space are good, timers based around that & travel are good, ability to swap between two sets of implants that affect your ship in space in a single location are good. Training clones however are bad. I don't quite follow. The system has not done anything bad to me. It enabled me pretty early on with my +4s and later +3s to train all the skills I need with a reasonably fast training speed. Once I started actually PVPing, I never looked back to anything beyond +3s, too. Even without the incredible (annoying for market people) feature of clone jumps without timer, I never felt a disadvantage of always training in the old days. The attribute system is not to blame here, but the incompetence of players to manage their EVE lifes as well as their obnoxious impatience that leads to false accusations on the attribute system being responsible for their worse EVE experience. UI Improvement Collective My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Sitting Bull Lakota SBL Co 259	Posted - 2017.03.05 23:04:18 - [31] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: Yesterday I jumped out of my expensive implants and went on a public roam. After the roam I got back into my implants asap for faster training. That was the smartest thing I could do at the time. Today, I heard there's another public fleet, I didn't know about it yesterday so couldn't plan ahead. But there's a timer until I can clone jump again. I've trained up the skills to reduce the timer, but it still means I can't go on today's roam without risking my expensive clone, and that's not worth it. So I'm logging off for today. Fun ruined because of implants. Take a step back with me and imagine for a second how many more people there are who have abstained from hitting "Undock" for fear of losing 100m-500m isk and some measure of sp/hr just like our op here. The solution isn't to remove them. They're a great isk sink, fun to kill, and fit in with EvE's wealth=power theme. As many have said in here, citadels are the counter. You don't have to wait 24 hours, because you can use a freeport to switch freely between clones. Everyone should have a cheap clone whether it's in a citadel or not. It should be and is common practice. CCP has done more than enough in providing us with the ability to quickly hop clones without penalty in citadels and create jump clones in any station without grinding up rep. It's on us to instruct others to protect their clones' implants with liberal use of jump clones, and I plan on doing that this week with an artillery thrasher.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6054	Posted - 2017.03.05 23:13:33 - [32] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: I'll agree to disagree on +y sp/hr implants being a good thing, because I still see it as a pay wall, and one that stops them using implants that actually benefit their ship as well. But you are right that it is a middle ground if CCP are too worried about the impact on the LP market to actually remove them, and allows for removing the worst part of the problem (the attributes themselves) Why? The +y SP/hour implant approach would let you render attributes meaningless and thus remove attribute remaps. But still let players train faster. Your post here suggests that a newer player is going to more interested in training implants. Removing all of this means there is even less ability to close the SP gap between older and newer players. I don't really care about SP like I used too. I've even used my last remap to equalize my attributes so I can shift around and train whatever I want. A newer player who is optimizing his training will be catching up, slowly yes, but catching up. And using a public clone bay in a citadel offers newer players a way to do this without the JC timer. And paywall? Only if you are trying to get into the best implants right away and then again look at the marginal differences. What is the marginal benefit from going up one step in implants on an annual basis, it is 788,400 SP/year. The cost differential is much, much larger. If somebody is that desperate that they are going to open up their RL wallet to that kind of benefit...okay, but sheesh talk about having some skewed understanding of marginal benefit vs. marginal cost. And isn't this true of just about everything in game. If I want X now it is a paywall if I don't already have the means to obtain/use X now. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Captain Campion Campion Corp. 52	Posted - 2017.03.05 23:25:54 - [33] - Quote OK, So I've been reading the link about Upwell Structures posted earlier. I don't mind admitting I didn't know about that, and having read it I still don't really get it. It''s likely that most EVE players don't know any of this either. I'll try and explain my thoughts, and hopefully you won't just fling insults back... the link again: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/209985225-Upwell-Structures-Quick-Facts I'm assuming these things are Citadels, it doesn't actually say and I don't see how I'm supposed to know that. I don't know if all Citadels are Upwell, or if all Upwell are Citadels. My experience of Citadels is in 0.0 and I've learnt they are dangerous, with odd tethering mechanics so I never really know what I'm dealing with and end up avoiding them altogether. I don't know why they're even allowed in high sec. I'd be very worried about putting my stuff in someone else's structure. I've heard about people losing stuff and clones because of that. The notes about cloning are: Cloning Service - The cost of installing a jump clones is set by the structure's owner. - Jump clones and their implants are lost when a structure is destroyed or unanchored. - If you jump clone to a clone you have at the Upwell structure you are currently located in, then you receive no activation delay to jump clone again. So it sounds like someone can change the cost. Are there any restrictions on that, e.g. timers to stop them from 100x-ing the cost every few seconds? I have no clue about how destroying or unanchoring Citadels works, what concord would do, how reinforcements work, do you have to declare war, what happens if they declare war on you, etc. I'm not planning on using or owning a Citadel so you don't need to explain it. But I do know that Citadels come and go, so it's not unusual for these things to happen. It used to be that jumping to the same station would destroy one of your clones. So I really don't know what would happen if I jumped to the same location in a Citadel OR in a regular station. I really like the intent of this though - to say if you're not travelling there's no timer, that's exactly what I want. I am really only trying to go from one station to another within the same system (I'd have them all in the same station if I could), and therefore there'd be no need for a timer to apply to me.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6054	Posted - 2017.03.05 23:34:40 - [34] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: OK, So I've been reading the link about Upwell Structures posted earlier. I don't mind admitting I didn't know about that, and having read it I still don't really get it. I'll try and explain my thoughts, and hopefully you won't just fling insults back... the link again: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/209985225-Upwell-Structures-Quick-Facts I'm assuming these things are Citadels, it doesn't actually say and I don't see how I'm supposed to know that. I don't know if all Citadels are Upwell, or if all Upwell are Citadels. My experience of Citadels is in 0.0 and I've learnt they are dangerous, with odd tethering mechanics so I never really know what I'm dealing with and end up avoiding them altogether. I don't know why they're even allowed in high sec. I'd be very worried about putting my stuff in someone else's structure. I've heard about people losing stuff and clones because of that. The notes about cloning are: Cloning Service - The cost of installing a jump clones is set by the structure's owner. - Jump clones and their implants are lost when a structure is destroyed or unanchored. - If you jump clone to a clone you have at the Upwell structure you are currently located in, then you receive no activation delay to jump clone again. So it sounds like someone can change the cost. Are there any restrictions on that, e.g. timers to stop them from 100x-ing the cost every few seconds? I have no clue about how destroying or unanchoring Citadels works, what concord would do, how reinforcements work, do you have to declare war, what happens if they declare war on you, etc. I'm not planning on using or owning a Citadel so you don't need to explain it. But I do know that Citadels come and go, so it's not unusual for these things to happen. It used to be that jumping to the same station would destroy one of your clones. So I really don't know what would happen if I jumped to the same location in a Citadel OR in a regular station. I really like the intent of this though - to say if you're not travelling there's no timer, that's exactly what I want. I am really only trying to go from one station to another within the same system (I'd have them all in the same station if I could), and therefore there'd be no need for a timer to apply to me. Yes, they are citadels. In NS they can be a PITA in that everything in your personal hangar will be moved to the closest LS station upon destruction of the citadel. If you have a clone there, the clone dies, and if you had implants, they are gone too. So yes, they entail risk. One thing to consider is using a public HS citadel and moving back and forth from where ever the roams are starting with a travel ceptor. Since they are nullified for interdiction bubbles and when fitted properly are fast as Hell, you can get to where you need to be very quickly. Even dozens of jumps. So just log in 20-30 minutes early burn to wherever you need to be, and there you go. You can have your training and your PvP with minimal fuss. Once the clone is installed at a given cost, they can't come back and charge you again and again. You will also have to pay to JC in and out, but there is a notification for that, so just read it and if the cost has been set to some ridiculous level, decline it and move somewhere else. Jumping to the same citadel does NOT destroy clones. I just tested this in the Perimeter citadel I referenced back up stream. You would destroy a clone doing this in a station, that has not changed. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 1619	Posted - 2017.03.06 20:31:32 - [35] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: And just because you have ISK doesn't mean you should waste it. (same as RL money) Why not? WTF else are you going to do with it? It's not like you can save it for retirement like RL money. Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 47187	Posted - 2017.03.06 23:52:30 - [36] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: And well, that newbie just lost their clone when the perimeter market wars blew the citadel up as well. And you don't see any problems here at all? Anyone who loses a clone to a destroyed Citadel clearly isn't spending 4 hours a day out of their training clone. They aren't logging in for at least 8 days. If it goes into reinforced, move the clone.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3877	Posted - 2017.03.07 00:20:57 - [37] - Quote to be honest with things like injectors and CCP overall wanting eve to be more accessible i would not be surprised if an outdated system like attributes was removed. and i would really not be surprised if when they did it the NEX store started selling something like a 2x sp accelerator BLOPS Hauler
Sonya Corvinus Grant Village 1026	Posted - 2017.03.07 00:54:26 - [38] - Quote Just put +3s in every clone and forget about them. They cost next to nothing, and the difference in training time between +3 and +5 is nearly nothing.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3034	Posted - 2017.03.07 03:57:59 - [39] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: There's no timer if you jump between clones in the same citadel I've never heard of this before. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 47193	Posted - 2017.03.07 04:44:19 - [40] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Danika Princip wrote: There's no timer if you jump between clones in the same citadel I've never heard of this before. It's been in the game since cloning facilities for Citadels were introduced.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3034	Posted - 2017.03.07 05:05:17 - [41] - Quote So it's a citadel-specific function? Why can't I do that in a station? FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6058	Posted - 2017.03.07 05:23:37 - [42] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: So it's a citadel-specific function? Why can't I do that in a station? By passing fatigue is bad. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 3894	Posted - 2017.03.07 07:28:25 - [43] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: So it's a citadel-specific function? Why can't I do that in a station? Because CCP wanted to add value to having your own/a trusted Citadel rather than just living in a station. Frankly they should put them into stations, but then remove 90% of stations in New Eden, and make them 1-2 a constellation in high sec, and rarer from there. That's actually what needs to happen to stations, but is a totally different point to why you can't hot swap clones in a station.
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues Hookers N' Blow 29	Posted - 2017.03.07 18:03:12 - [44] - Quote I feel like removing attributes all together including attribute implants would appease 90% of the game. Just make everyone train at the same rate not implants.
Scialt Universal Sanitation Corporation 46	Posted - 2017.03.07 18:38:51 - [45] - Quote I've decided to stop caring about training speed. I'm not replacing implants on any of my characters once they get lost. I found myself worrying too much about training time and figured that since I can already fly stuff I'm happy using... I can afford to wait longer to move up to cooler toys in exchange for not worrying about what might be in my pod. perhaps a year from now I'll be kicking myself... but I'm having more fun now.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 6066	Posted - 2017.03.07 18:48:51 - [46] - Quote Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues wrote: I feel like removing attributes all together including attribute implants would appease 90% of the game. Just make everyone train at the same rate not implants. Really, consider two players: 1. They are like me, well north of 100 million SP and really don't care nearly as much anymore. This change leaves me rather indifferent. 2. The player who is using public citadel to optimize his training. This change will definitely slow down his rate of training and delay all of his training related goals. And consider those who do run missions for whatever reasons. No more implants may very well mean one less source of ISK for such players. Not sure that is going to get 90%. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Captain Campion Campion Corp. 54	Posted - 2017.03.07 20:52:28 - [47] - Quote Scialt wrote: I've decided to stop caring about training speed. I'm not replacing implants on any of my characters once they get lost. I found myself worrying too much about training time and figured that since I can already fly stuff I'm happy using... I can afford to wait longer to move up to cooler toys in exchange for not worrying about what might be in my pod. perhaps a year from now I'll be kicking myself... but I'm having more fun now. If the game doesn't change to solve this issue in some way, this is exactly what I'll be doing. I really believe we can do better though, I've heard a few ideas I think are better than the current system.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 3036	Posted - 2017.03.08 07:00:26 - [48] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: I've heard a few ideas I think are better than the current system. I had an idea but nobody liked it. Still, I think it would be highly effective relative to how easy it would be to implement: Illegal pirate training implants. They are farmed entirely in nullsec but are common and much cheaper than the same legal types you get from empire space. These implants are illegal to take with you into empire space and if any customs agent finds them in your head, they'll be removed and you'll be docked some security status. For extra flavor, they could each grant a tiny bonus and penalty, further explaining why they are illegal without giving them much room for use other than as attribute implants. Example: +1% shield hit points, -0.8% shield resists. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues Hookers N' Blow 30	Posted - 2017.03.08 15:37:15 - [49] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Captain Campion wrote: I've heard a few ideas I think are better than the current system. I had an idea but nobody liked it. Still, I think it would be highly effective relative to how easy it would be to implement: Illegal pirate training implants. They are farmed entirely in nullsec but are common and much cheaper than the same legal types you get from empire space. These implants are illegal to take with you into empire space and if any customs agent finds them in your head, they'll be removed and you'll be docked some security status. For extra flavor, they could each grant a tiny bonus and penalty, further explaining why they are illegal without giving them much room for use other than as attribute implants. Example: +1% shield hit points, -0.8% shield resists. While your heart is in the right place, why add more complications for less or no content. As for guys who use these implants for income they can run other missions do other things etc. This game has evolved above and beyond the need for these implants and attributes etc. We now have skill injectors etc. Its already on the board to be removed the attributes and implants etc.
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 3173	Posted - 2017.03.08 16:35:52 - [50] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: And consider those who do run missions for whatever reasons. No more implants may very well mean one less source of ISK for such players. The LP market crash would be interesting to see in a way. It might bring faction BS more in line with pirate ones in term of value.

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