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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2444
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:29:37 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Antiquarian touched on this, but I feel it's important to emphasize that the main reason to simplify the audio settings is to reduce the impact on our development of ensuring that those settings work on an ongoing basis. This leaves us able to do more per release as a team.
So, the feedback that would be most helpful would be to focus on what you specifically use those features to do, and why you feel the Singularity implementation falls short.
Leaving things the way they are isn't an option because it doesn't address the underlying problem.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Dominous Nolen
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
258
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:29:43 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Antiquarian wrote:Regarding the Advanced Audio Changes:
We added some code a few releases back to track how the Advanced Audio features were being used by active EVE players.
We were interested in seeing for players with Audio enabled whether or not Advanced Audio was active, and if so which sliders were actually in use (not default values). We also looked at any prominent combinations of sliders, and where we had duplicated functionality between the main audio settings and the advanced audio settings.
One of the goals was to minimize the amount of work that goes into maintaining and updating the audio system so that the team can focus on issues that affect more players. Additionally, we frequently do receive negative feedback from players about the complexity of options presented in the ESC menu.
We did not want to eliminate all Advanced settings, but we did want to simplify if at all possible. Logging of every active user over the past few releases gave us an indicator of how to move forward with that simplification.
We don't all play the same way... So you can't blindly assume what works for the majority works for all... Just saying.
This change is not accetable, Right now as it is half the sounds in the UI update with the latest scanning changes were just lumped under the UI interaction. Some of the sounds I actually find useful or helped with immersion vs. others (say the background noise of the scanning window) that were just an annoyance compounding on top of my game play and felt out of place.
Half of the player base (Alphas or Omegas) probably don't even use the advanced settings anyways, so you're results would be skewed a bit.
I can share my settings when I'm back at my PC, much Like Ransu's post I only use what's vital in a wormhole and everything else clouds the experience. Please consider walking this back.
@dominousnolen
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Brent Anders
Project Pendragon
1
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:34:25 -
[33] - Quote
Well, can't say much about the new Suns, aside: FELL THE HEAT
I must say those came out pretty neat and epic, and the ambient sound around them also adds to that feeling if being near something rather big and active like a Star. A Solid 10/10 from me.
Once SISI's back up, i gona hopa round and see if i can catch every color there is, and maybe update the List of Pictures here. |
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
522
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:35:18 -
[34] - Quote
I'm a bit more upset that you were planning this (and were gathering metrics), and we had to find out about the change from someone who randomly found this on SiSi, rather than there being a thread for feedback and discussion on this until we brought it up. At least now we're talking about it.
Regardless, I'll test my settings at home and see if the simplified "Advanced" audio settings will fit my needs.
Here's one gent from Reddit who documented which sliders he uses: http://i.imgur.com/bQHLGTq.png |
Dominous Nolen
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
258
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:36:41 -
[35] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:CCP Antiquarian touched on this, but I feel it's important to emphasize that the main reason to simplify the audio settings is to reduce the impact on our development of ensuring that those settings work on an ongoing basis. This leaves us able to do more per release as a team.
So, the feedback that would be most helpful would be to focus on what you specifically use those features to do, and why you feel the Singularity implementation falls short.
Leaving things the way they are isn't an option because it doesn't address the underlying problem.
Hey Darwin - thanks for following up.
I think the community can probably give you enough of a use case to increase the options beyond the current SISI deployment. You know just as well as I do that you don't get a good enough sampling from play testing on Sisi. I think the most players I've seen logged in at once was maybe at the 250 mark. So once this patch goes live, guess what.. The forums will rage, people will get out their pitchforks thanks to (/r/pitchformemporium) and you'll be inidinated with "I don't like this change, bring back the old Aura etc.." chants.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/62isk2/sisi_ui_click_can_no_longer_be_separately_muted/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/62lkta/can_we_please_talk_about_advanced_audio_settings/
I understand the concern from the developement side, but lumping everything together (including the click that I'm sure some people turned off long ago) will not help keep players engaged. The common joke "Eve has Sound?" will only be more common if we lose our ability to control our experience.
Perhaps for these type of changes you take more of an active player feedback stance via surveys or something along those lines. If you were seriously going to put the time into looking into these settings advise the player base more, as this is kinda a big deal and be proactive rather then reactive to your changes.
We don't like surprises and you know exactly how the community responds when something is slid in with minimal knowledge before patch day.
I'm assuming you're dev work flow has moved to a more Agile work flow, so if you are running in a short sprint cycle you can try something, iterate on what didn't work and release a new version rather than a fire and forget much like the camera features that never returned with the new camera.
@dominousnolen
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Seraph Essael
Anomalous Existence Spatial Instability
1231
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:36:54 -
[36] - Quote
If you have been monitering these, can we have a graph of the amount of players that use the advanced against those than dont? And on top of that, can we have a graph of the amount of different settings that are used?
For myself, wormholes are turned right up as I need them as such and gates are turned down because i dont use them / too loud. If you simplify the setting and lump gates and wormholes in the same setting for example, the gates are going to be deafening.
Every person that plays this game plays differently, and to lump a decent current selection advanced setting into a dumbded down, 7 options list is ridiculous.
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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CCP Darwin
C C P C C P Alliance
2444
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:41:49 -
[37] - Quote
Dominous Nolen wrote:You know just as well as I do that you don't get a good enough sampling from play testing on Sisi. Data from Singularity would be inadequate for this purpose, yes. The data about usage of these settings that CCP Antiquarian mentioned was collected on Tranquility over multiple months.
CCP Darwin GÇó Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online GÇó @mark_wilkins
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Dominous Nolen
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
258
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:50:29 -
[38] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Dominous Nolen wrote:You know just as well as I do that you don't get a good enough sampling from play testing on Sisi. Data from Singularity would be inadequate for this purpose, yes. The data about usage of these settings that CCP Antiquarian mentioned was collected on Tranquility.
Yes and as I mentioned what is the percentage of the player base that actually turns that on vs. don't. Also were you collecting Alpha stats etc from brand new bros?.. Cause they might not know what half that stuff does. I still am finding some of my sliders are keyed to the wrong sounds for ambience and randomly adjust them to try and balance things
I just think much like a few folks have pointed out on reddit and here that we need more options then the proposed.
I'll post up a screen grab of my settings when I'm home. In wormholes I turn down most of my settings to ensure I get only the key info.
@dominousnolen
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Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
438
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:51:21 -
[39] - Quote
1. Bring in some color into neocom icons. 2. Adjust Chimera so that it looks like Chimera rather than a Rokh. Thank you in advance. |
Kalestrom Crendraven
Alcoholocaust. Test Alliance Please Ignore
6
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Posted - 2017.03.31 16:58:46 -
[40] - Quote
Are you sure that the metrics were being recorded correctly? I'm not trying to be nasty, but every time I talk with someone about their sound setup (that isn't "lol eve has sound??") I've heard some interesting mix of stuff, and helpful information about what is considered in which category (ie: that loud pulsating sound outside a citadel is under "modules" not "station exterior")
As mentioned on reddit, one of the reasons its "complicated" is because the groupings tend to make little sense, or include too many things. More options would actually be welcome, or (pie in the sky) allow us to use custom sound packs.
Next thing I know instead of making it so the sun/bright nebulas don't render the UI mostly unreadable, they'll remove the option to disable camera shake and make it so the entire UI becomes unreadable. |
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Kazmani Vindictus
Wormbro The Society For Unethical Treatment Of Sleepers
0
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Posted - 2017.03.31 17:11:20 -
[41] - Quote
TIL: That advanced audio features were a thing.
I just spent some time setting mine up, and now I really don't want them to be stupefied.
Now I don't have to mute my client based on the activities I'm partaking in.
CCPls be April foolin' |
Kalfyra D'Lourn
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
0
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Posted - 2017.03.31 17:25:06 -
[42] - Quote
For the advanced audio changes, I HATE the UI click, but I like/tolerate everything else covered by the "UI sound level" setting. Having to mute everything just to get rid of the click seems like a pretty big QoL loss to me. |
krickettt
Hizzy Hizzy Hippos Book Hockey.
20
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Posted - 2017.03.31 17:28:38 -
[43] - Quote
Please don't simplify the ADVANCED audio settings! That makes no sense at all. If anything, they need more granularity. Things like the UI click and the new gong sound when you dscan should be separated and have their own advanced audio setting.
If you simplify the advanced audio settings I'll be forced to mute it all, and I'd rather not do that. |
Hirmuolio Pine
EVE University Ivy League
6
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Posted - 2017.03.31 17:39:24 -
[44] - Quote
Advanced audio feedback:
"Secondary interfaces" combines way too many settigns into one. It includes UI ambient sound (map/ship tree/...) and active UI sounds (scanning, clicking). I really think those two must be separated. Especially probe scan is helpful so I can hear when scan is completed without watching the UI all the time.
D-scan is just annoying since that is spammed constantly and it plays on each jump. Just make d-scan very quiet sound or add separate slider for d-scan.
Separate active UI sounds from ambient UI sounds.
Nothing in advanced sounds changes radial menu sound. add it into active UI sounds.
"Ship effects" includes almost all ship effects. Too many combined again. I don't want module sounds, permarunning tank starts to sound annoying really fast so I mute it. I want to hear when I land from warp since it is useful information. I want to hear explosions. |
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
30248
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Posted - 2017.03.31 17:40:54 -
[45] - Quote
I have only one complaint. I can see sun from inside when I warp thru it. Cant it be made like with other celestials?
Every part of a game helps to tell a story =ƒôò
Where is Angry CONCORD guy when you need him
Osprey =ƒÜÇ
GëíGïüGëí GÖÑ
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Ransu Asanari
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
524
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Posted - 2017.03.31 17:52:57 -
[46] - Quote
CCP Antiquarian/Darwin: Can we please get a mapping of what Advanced Audio Settings were combined, so we can test edge cases?
Also here's another thread that popped up on the Advanced Audio Settings:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/62lkta/can_we_please_talk_about_advanced_audio_settings/ |
CowRocket Void
Angelus.Mortis Fidelas Constans
34
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Posted - 2017.03.31 18:07:35 -
[47] - Quote
now im mad...
bleeding shadow darkness > did i just saw a red procurer? :P
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Eleonora Crendraven
Global Communications AG
115
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Posted - 2017.03.31 18:15:23 -
[48] - Quote
Vesan Terakol wrote:The suns look amazing! I traveled about 15 jumps an about 10 of the models i ran into were unique. The pink ones are the most awesome! A question remains, tho, were there green stars? If yes, where can i find one?
"These new sun models showcase Eve's subtle beauty"
Amazing
https://twitter.com/gcAG_EVE
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Eleonora_Crendraven
GëíGïüGëí
"The prince of darkness is a gentleman. (3.4.148) "
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Farr Arrow
Pheonix Industriel Corporation
9
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Posted - 2017.03.31 18:28:46 -
[49] - Quote
I apologize but I am not a fan at all of putting the portrait of any player on any Upwell Structure. Using any CEO's portrait in this way will distract from the reality that most all these prominent structures are the group effort of many players, not the work of a single pilot. Sorry. |
Dominous Nolen
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
263
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Posted - 2017.03.31 18:31:00 -
[50] - Quote
Eleonora Crendraven wrote:Vesan Terakol wrote:The suns look amazing! I traveled about 15 jumps an about 10 of the models i ran into were unique. The pink ones are the most awesome! A question remains, tho, were there green stars? If yes, where can i find one? "These new sun models showcase Eve's subtle beauty"Amazing
Agreed, Holy crap those new stars look amazing.
@dominousnolen
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Veskin Sentinel
An Ode to Lamia's Autumn
42
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Posted - 2017.03.31 19:47:58 -
[51] - Quote
The new suns are amazing! So beautiful! Great job guys!
I never run more than one client and I got my video settings pretty high, so I haven't noticed any dramatic issues with the suns. Probably there can be some more variety when it comes to sun texture repeating details assets, but I guess this can be tweaked with time. On higher settings stuff looks really good.
I like how the subtle rays coming out of the suns edge are moving/shifting when you move the camera, good design decision. However, in my opinion, there should be also rays that are lazily moving/shifting on their own, regardless the camera movement, to make the star feel more alive. Do this and the stars will look perfectly perfect, hehe... ;)
www.veskin7.blogspot.com - my EVE related blog.
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Cade Windstalker
1205
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Posted - 2017.03.31 20:22:59 -
[52] - Quote
krickettt wrote:Please don't simplify the ADVANCED audio settings! That makes no sense at all. If anything, they need more granularity. Things like the UI click and the new gong sound when you dscan should be separated and have their own advanced audio setting.
If you simplify the advanced audio settings I'll be forced to mute it all, and I'd rather not do that.
They've explained why they're doing this and it does make sense.
1. People have complained that the settings UI is too complicated. I've spent more than enough time helping out newbies to know they aren't BSing on this, I can't count the number of times I've told someone "oh there's a setting for that" and gotten something akin to "oh, I stopped messing with the settings, it all looked too complicated" or similar.
2. Having tons of different sliders and what-not complicates their work as devs. It's probably also responsible for some sliders controlling things that make little sense for them to control to the average player (for example Citadel tether sounds are caused by tether, which is technically a module internally, hence module sounds). With a simpler menu they can spend some of that freed up time making sure that every new thing tweaked or added ends up in the right place in the UI controls. |
Dominous Nolen
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
263
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Posted - 2017.03.31 20:28:38 -
[53] - Quote
As for the icons on the citadel can you just set it to only show corp and alliance logos and not CEO details?
@dominousnolen
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
445
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Posted - 2017.03.31 21:51:42 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Savior wrote:Xynthiar wrote:It seems alliance logos are not copied over to sisi. All alliances just have the default stars picture. Could a few alliances have their logos copied over for testing purposes? :) Its something we're currently working on as its creating a few issues when trying to test this feature. Its also the reason why you might see some Corp logos appear as the default Corp logo if said Corp is part of an alliance. I'm still hammering out the bugs on this one, but please do fire a bug report in if you see anything you believe to be a bug.
Might it be possible to add the option to select either corp logo or alliance logo? Since some alliances have no unique logo, or because the services they render might not be alliance specific, some groups may want the option to display one or the other per structure.
Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.
Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
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Circumstantial Evidence
391
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Posted - 2017.03.31 22:14:51 -
[55] - Quote
I don't play with sound often, but I'll miss the wonderful option presented by detailed advanced audio sliders. Its serious QOL for players that do use them. (I did use and still miss the UI color sliders. UI color schemes need some brighter options. High contrast with dark backgrounds tire my eyes.)
Consider this: expose client audio files to players, and permit modification. UI responsibility would be reduced to an advanced checkbox "Do not verify audio files". Any CCP new or changed sounds would be installed and enabled when released to clients, but not checked again, leaving it up to players to decide what to do with them. Missing file? no sound would play. Changed sound is too long? oh well, it could be cut short or overlap the next sound. Corrupted file / game crash / Support Tickets? GM asks if the "do not verify" box is checked. |
Ulfen
Hyperion Holdings
0
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Posted - 2017.04.01 00:50:10 -
[56] - Quote
Losing the advanced audio sliders would be a huge step backward. I appreciate that doing away with or reducing the scope of features leads to easier maintenance for CCP, but losing the advanced audio sliders would be a big loss of QoL for the player. This is something that we use and rely on.
We've requested *more* audio sliders (I'm looking at you, solar system map background hum)... not fewer! Please don't go through with this change. |
Angry RedGummyBear
Dystopian Heaven Hedonistic Imperative
15
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Posted - 2017.04.01 03:14:35 -
[57] - Quote
CCP Antiquarian wrote:Regarding the Advanced Audio Changes:
We added some code a few releases back to track how the Advanced Audio features were being used by active EVE players.
We were interested in seeing for players with Audio enabled whether or not Advanced Audio was active, and if so which sliders were actually in use (not default values). We also looked at any prominent combinations of sliders, and where we had duplicated functionality between the main audio settings and the advanced audio settings.
...
We did not want to eliminate all Advanced settings, but we did want to simplify if at all possible. Logging of every active user over the past few releases gave us an indicator of how to move forward with that simplification.
Did you consider how many people simply didn't know this was an option? Or that many users didn't touch sliders because many useful things are lumped together with many completely useless things? Particularly in the case of new scanning noises, where some are useful, and others make me want to break my shiny nice headphones on the nearest wall?
Wanting to simplify the process is understandable. However, I think a fair few people would like very much the ability to edit scanning noise in particular with more specific choice rather than less. |
Aradina Varren
Alexylva Paradox
123
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Posted - 2017.04.01 03:19:17 -
[58] - Quote
Please don't remove the advanced audio features. I understand that maintaining them is extra work, but removing them would be a terrible idea.
Feels Pretty Soft to Me.
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Ember Niagara
Interiority Scanning Services
11
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Posted - 2017.04.01 03:23:22 -
[59] - Quote
CCP Antiquarian wrote:We did not want to eliminate all Advanced settings, but we did want to simplify if at all possible. Logging of every active user over the past few releases gave us an indicator of how to move forward with that simplification. This doesn't need to be black and white "keep the old, we upset the people wanting simple audio control" vs. "simplify, we upset the establishment."
There is a third option. Hide complexity until it is asked for. Keep your changes as drop-down folders which categorically-hierarchically contain more detailed settings. You've already done this with other aspects of EVE - i.e. Regional Market Item Categories, Saved Fittings, pretty much anything involving a menu with drop-downs...
In my below mockup, the {customize} button could also visually appear as a drop-down arrow; pushing it opens up more options, with {play} buttons to preview each sound:
UI Sound Level [-----slider----] {customize} <--- acts as master volume for all the ones below it --> Directional Scan: Scan Initiated [-----slider----] {play} --> Notification: Killmail Received [-----slider----] {play} --> Probe Scanner: Cube Dragging [-----slider----] {play} --> Probe Scanner: Probes Warping [-----slider----] {play} --> Probe Scanner: Scan in Progress [-----slider----] {play} --> Probe Scanner: Signature ID'ed [-----slider----] {play} --> Probe Scanner: Signature Warpable [-----slider----] {play} --> Solar System Map: Ambient Sound [-----slider----] {play} --> .. etc (anything else which UI Sound Level covers) |
krickettt
Hizzy Hizzy Hippos Book Hockey.
24
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Posted - 2017.04.01 04:25:01 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:CCP Antiquarian touched on this, but I feel it's important to emphasize that the main reason to simplify the audio settings is to reduce the impact on our development of ensuring that those settings work on an ongoing basis. This leaves us able to do more per release as a team.
So, the feedback that would be most helpful would be to focus on what you specifically use those features to do, and why you feel the Singularity implementation falls short.
Leaving things the way they are isn't an option because it doesn't address the underlying problem.
Next, will you be foregoing most graphic options except for a UI element allowing you to choose only between Ultra, High, Medium and Low graphic options? That seems the natural slope you seem to be taking here. Will shortcuts, themes and other settings be getting cut or simplified next?
I would say the best option would be to show the new simplified options for when Advanced Audio is unchecked, and the current implementation when it is checked, but it seems you just want to remove it for the sake of code upkeep and testing. |
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