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Leikung	Posted - 2007.05.05 18:40:00 - [31] Glad to see my cloaked borthern are so well loved. Learn to fight fire with fire. Depth charges worked in WWII
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:13:00 - [32] Actually this debate over cloakers has been going on for weeks now. (I should know, i made the first posts that started it all) The latest active thread is here (Wall of text warning) The point is that cloaked ships should not be able to remain safe in hostile 0.0 space indefinetly. Especially when the pilots of said ships are afk for hours on end. The situation forces all residents of that system to actively defend themselves against someone who isnt there. A fix is desperately needed to remove cloakers ability to be safe in hostile 0.0 space, especially while the players are not at the keyboard.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.05.05 19:52:00 - [33] Originally by: ghosttr The situation forces all residents of that system to actively defend themselves against someone who isnt there. If you knew with any certainty that your adversary truly wasn't there, then you wouldn't have to defend yourself, would you? But how else are they supposed to convince you into lowering your guard, short of deceiving you into believing they are AFK? The point is that no unprepared/unescorted/undefended pilot should ever be safe in 0.0 space. And cloaked pilots, especially, shouldn't have to resort to camping AFK 23/7, just to get around your meta-gaming use of a chat tab.
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Blue Pixie Originally by: ghosttr The situation forces all residents of that system to actively defend themselves against someone who isnt there. If you knew with any certainty that your adversary truly wasn't there, then you wouldn't have to defend yourself, would you? But how else are they supposed to convince you into lowering your guard, short of deceiving you into believing they are AFK? The point is that no unprepared/unescorted/undefended pilot should ever be safe in 0.0 space. And cloaked pilots, especially, shouldn't have to resort to camping AFK 23/7, just to get around your meta-gaming use of a chat tab. If you have issues with local then by all means, start another thread about it. Its a secondary issue and not part of this topic. If you remove local, fine, but you have to replace the game of eve as we know it, why? The game has too many static points that people have to be at. Belts, gates stations all are fixed in space. This gives a huge advantage to the attacker because he has no need to probe, or even scan, to find his target. If you remove local, then you have to move all static points in the game in order to make things more fair. This of course will make a cloaked ship use probes, which defeats the purpose of removing local in the first place. If you have to use probes, then all ships will just use the scanner to look for probes. But this is a seperate subject. The use of cloaks, and the lack of the ability to counter them can be discussed without using local as a reason for justifying thier "uberness".
Dregann Amarr Trading Company New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.05.05 20:30:00 - [35] Well maybe you should setup a Ambush other than complaining?
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:00:00 - [36] Edited by: ghosttr on 05/05/2007 20:57:10 Originally by: Dregann Well maybe you should setup a Ambush other than complaining? Why should 10+ players have to waste hours on end waiting for someone that is afk?? Also he wont attack if he senses anything might be amiss. He will just go afk for another 6-8 hours. And if its still hot, he will just keep waiting. And wasting other players time trying to defend against his character when hes not even at the keyboard. We shouldn't have to defend against someone who isnt there, and someone who decides to come into hostile space shouldn't be safe for hours on end.
SIMONP1965	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:15:00 - [37] Edited by: SIMONP1965 on 06/05/2007 01:11:40 Originally by: Dregann Well maybe you should setup a Ambush other than complaining? #1 ambush?? ya cant ambush an unseen ship.. the prob is that the game mechaincs give no way to really fight a cuple of cloaked ships from shuting down all muning in a system, being that you can insta pop a hauler, when thay use hit and run tatics.. not much you can do and this is what needs to be fixed
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:39:00 - [38] Originally by: Jayson Lee If you have issues with local then by all means, start another thread about it. Its a secondary issue and not part of this topic. Secondary issue? I strongly suspect local is the primary reason cloaked ships aren't currently probable. It grossly undermines the very principle of being "covert." How you can ignore or trivialize that is beyond me. Originally by: Jayson Lee The game has too many static points that people have to be at. Belts, gates stations all are fixed in space. This gives a huge advantage to the attacker because he has no need to probe, or even scan, to find his target. Haven't read the recent Dev Blog by CCP Greyscale, have you? Regardless, how can you justify playing in the lowest security rated regions of EVE without being constantly vigilant? No need to probe, or even scan? Golly, that sounds familiar. Do you even see the irony in your criticism... while dismissing local chat as a "secondary" issue? Originally by: Jayson Lee But this is a seperate subject. The use of cloaks, and the lack of the ability to counter them can be discussed without using local as a reason for justifying thier "uberness". Why? Because you're biased in favor of a unilateral nerf? How convenient.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:50:00 - [39] Originally by: ghosttr Actually this debate over cloakers has been going on for weeks now. (I should know, i made the first posts that started it all) The latest active thread is here (Wall of text warning) The point is that cloaked ships should not be able to remain safe in hostile 0.0 space indefinetly. Especially when the pilots of said ships are afk for hours on end. The situation forces all residents of that system to actively defend themselves against someone who isnt there. A fix is desperately needed to remove cloakers ability to be safe in hostile 0.0 space, especially while the players are not at the keyboard. what you are referring to a measure to prevent afk so stop asking for cloak nerf if the afk is your problem we are nerfed enough as it is ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Steel Tigeress	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:07:00 - [40] BP, us cloakers use local just as much as the non cloakers. So stop claiming its the end all be all boon to cloaking if it was removed. Right now, when you are flying around cloaked...whats your first indication that there may be somone in the 0.0 system you are cloaked in that you could hunt? Thats right that little box that YOU, BP, looked at was local. I'll agree with you that cloaking is'nt broken, I love it. But AFK cloaking is.
Evengard Solar Dragons Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:16:00 - [41] Actually i support idea of Cloaks been nerfed, but one specific way. For now we having 2 types of cloaking devices - standard and covert-ops. I think nerf must be only for standart cloaks in a way for probes to locate cloaked ships. Maybe with a chance for probes to scan cloacked ship. +there was a shockwave idea... But good thing to add special cov-ops class ships with ability to equip and use this shockwave to increase effect radius up to 15-20 km maybe. Like RL submarine hunters. In extention, probes should not detect at all, or have very small chance to detect cov-ops based ships. (Frig / Recon) ___________________ Recon and Intercept
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:27:00 - [42] Originally by: SIMONP1965 Edited by: SIMONP1965 on 06/05/2007 01:11:40 Originally by: Dregann Well maybe you should setup a Ambush other than complaining? #1 ambush?? ya cant ambush an unseen ship.. the prob is that the game mechaincs give no way to really fight a cuple of cloaked ships from shuting down all muning in a system, being that you can insta pop a hauler, when thay use hit and run tatics.. not much you can do and this is what needs to be fixed Are you that carebearish? If you have so much going on in your system that is shut down by these cloakers, it shouldnt be a problem to just go about your business and kill them once they decide to attack someone? You have to defend your space, stop whining about that.
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:51:00 - [43] Originally by: Steel Tigeress BP, us cloakers use local just as much as the non cloakers. So stop claiming its the end all be all boon to cloaking if it was removed. Right now, when you are flying around cloaked...whats your first indication that there may be somone in the 0.0 system you are cloaked in that you could hunt? Thats right that little box that YOU, BP, looked at was local. I'll agree with you that cloaking is'nt broken, I love it. But AFK cloaking is. I wouldn't have even the slightest problem if local was taken away from cloaked pilots as well. They can't merely glance at a chat tab to see me? I can't merely glance at a chat tab to see them. We'd both have to make an effort to find/avoid each other.
Manfred Sideous 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:20:00 - [44] ever hear of the term "Reverse Gank"?
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.06 15:44:00 - [45] Originally by: Blue Pixie Originally by: Jayson Lee If you have issues with local then by all means, start another thread about it. Its a secondary issue and not part of this topic. Secondary issue? I strongly suspect local is the primary reason cloaked ships aren't currently probable. It grossly undermines the very principle of being "covert." How you can ignore or trivialize that is beyond me. Originally by: Jayson Lee The game has too many static points that people have to be at. Belts, gates stations all are fixed in space. This gives a huge advantage to the attacker because he has no need to probe, or even scan, to find his target. Haven't read the recent Dev Blog by CCP Greyscale, have you? Regardless, how can you justify playing in the lowest security rated regions of EVE without being constantly vigilant? No need to probe, or even scan? Golly, that sounds familiar. Do you even see the irony in your criticism... while dismissing local chat as a "secondary" issue? Originally by: Jayson Lee But this is a seperate subject. The use of cloaks, and the lack of the ability to counter them can be discussed without using local as a reason for justifying thier "uberness". Why? Because you're biased in favor of a unilateral nerf? How convenient. I have explained why its a secondary issue. I am not saying the two are related to each other, only that you can talk about the pros and cons of cloaked ships without using local as a crutch. Where did I suggest that I shouldnt have to be vigilant? The irony here is this is what you want. You want to be able to fly your ship in some system, hit a button and walk away. No worries, no concerns about being found. I find it amusing that you are attacking me for the very thing you are trying to defend. Since you seem so focused on local as the main reason for allowing cloaked ships to be invincible, then lets remove local. I would love to see what the devs have suggested put in place. But as they have already said, thier idea is just that, an idea and can be months or even years away. So lets remove local, what is your suggesting for cloaked ships? Would you then allow probes to find them out? "Why? Because you're biased in favor of a unilateral nerf? How convenient." What, are you suggesting that you dont have a biased opinion in this matter? This is the second time in a very short post you have critized me for something that you yourself are guilty of. Doesnt that sound a little hypocritical of you?
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.05.06 15:46:00 - [46] CCP will nerf cloaks soon as all players are frustrated and angered by them when they are used against them. I do not think it was intended game design to have every single ship using a cloak almost all the time.
mamolian Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 15:51:00 - [47] Edited by: mamolian on 06/05/2007 15:50:51 Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Get a fast tackle group ready at a POS. Bait them then when they decloak kill them and shout wakkawakkawakka!!! in local. shouting wakkawakkawakka!!! in local is optional. Oh man.. I had tears in my eyes there for a second.. But back on topic LEAVE CLOAKS ALONE FFS! And to the op.. 2 people keeping 100 man alliance docked.. Thats funny. But not surprising if your unfamiliar with how to PVP in eve.. 3 - 6 cruisers would be enough to take those guys out.. Do missions/mine/rat in small groups.. That age old saying safety in numbers. -------------------------------
Shaa Ku Amarr Black Knight Buccaneers	Posted - 2007.05.06 15:58:00 - [48] yea it`s anoying to say the least but you know what if playing comes to a halt becose of one or two guys cloaking in you system something is so wrong in your alliance. If things were right that guy would be dead as soon as he shows his face in the belt trying to kill something. The solution is called friends, it`s actualy the best you can do. Play as usual mayby rat in a diffren ship ar fitt it diffrently but basicly play as usual. draw him out to what seams to be a vonerable target.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 16:00:00 - [49] Nerf Them - Nerf them I sAY! NERF THEM ALLL! I Dont post - as CCP nerfed my entertinament - So im nerfing everyone else entertainment - witholding my witty posts, and hilarious banners and sig graphics. But if i did - i would have said the above
Sable Keetch	Posted - 2007.05.06 16:09:00 - [50] Originally by: SIMONP1965 im in a system where 2 cloaked ships have been hanging out for almost a month now, the alliance im in has about 100 players and game play in the system has almost come to a holt, im a paying player and so is the 100 players that use the system, thats $1500 a month and were being denied play by 2 players $30 a month, im about redy to just stop paying till CCP comes up with a way to detect cloaked ships, this is getting rediculas, im sure CCP never ment players to come in a system and shut it down for a month at a time... well i have to go and take my auto pay off now cause im not paying if i cant play in the system i want to... Funny this is almost the exactly the same gripe I've heard written about over and over.I still don't get it. Better still is the fact that you sound just like the last guy except you told people where to find you.Which if I know people will bring more cloaker's to you just to put a bee in your bonnet. I guess what I'm saying is it's a part of the game as much as snipers hitting you before you even see them,or crappy suicide gankers in any system and a ton of other things adapt, I am.
Raia Mortius	Posted - 2007.05.06 16:58:00 - [51] put a tanked miner or ratter in a belt, sit there with 5 cloakers as backup. kill him when he strikes. check previous kill mails for times he is most likely online. i dont see the problem.
Gutsani Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.05.06 17:22:00 - [52] Go ahead .. nerf cloaking .. but then i want local removed! Its the same discussion, you carebears get easy intelligence you dont need. The only ones that are gonna get screwed over by nerfing the cloak are all these carebears that cloak in their belt when someone enters local anyway.. If you make it so that you can find cloaked people; what do you expect those recon ships do? Let me tell you, they will log off and most likely keep one active player in your system that is moving arround. If he finds something, he will tell em on their vent/teamspeak, he scrambles you, they all log in and kill it. And you will be back to the forum whining.. Seriously, stop whining because you cant kill one person .. its not our fault you suck .. "I SUCK THEY NEED TO SUCK ALSO " This discussion is over, go find something else to whine about. ------------------------ Stop reading my siggy!
Jayson Lee Minmatar Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.05.06 20:45:00 - [53] Originally by: Gutsani Go ahead .. nerf cloaking .. but then i want local removed! Its the same discussion, you carebears get easy intelligence you dont need. The only ones that are gonna get screwed over by nerfing the cloak are all these carebears that cloak in their belt when someone enters local anyway.. If you make it so that you can find cloaked people; what do you expect those recon ships do? Let me tell you, they will log off and most likely keep one active player in your system that is moving arround. If he finds something, he will tell em on their vent/teamspeak, he scrambles you, they all log in and kill it. And you will be back to the forum whining.. Seriously, stop whining because you cant kill one person .. its not our fault you suck .. "I SUCK THEY NEED TO SUCK ALSO " This discussion is over, go find something else to whine about. Remove local, but you must replace local with some type of radar system. You also need to remove belts (already being discussed). Once you do that then the two sides will be more equal. Cloaked ships cant be found, but unless the launch probes to find the hidden belts, miners and mish runners are safe as well. Right now local is the only way to balance the game of EVE. If you want to play cat and mouse, hunter vs prey then you need to change the game. Currently the hunters have a very good idea of where the miners are, there is no way around that. To balance this inherent advantage that attacks get (knowning where your prey is at) its only fair that a system is in place that alerts miners that a hunter is in the area. But this is seperate issue. Right now, there is no way to counter a cloaked ship. Why should a cloak be the only module in the game that can not be countered?
Hannobaal Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.06 20:57:00 - [54] Originally by: SIMONP1965 im in a system where 2 cloaked ships have been hanging out for almost a month now, the alliance im in has about 100 players and game play in the system has almost come to a holt, im a paying player and so is the 100 players that use the system, thats $1500 a month and were being denied play by 2 players $30 a month, im about redy to just stop paying till CCP comes up with a way to detect cloaked ships, this is getting rediculas, im sure CCP never ment players to come in a system and shut it down for a month at a time... well i have to go and take my auto pay off now cause im not paying if i cant play in the system i want to... That's just pathetic. You fail at Eve, and probably at life as well. ------------------ "If you ever need anything please don't Hesitate to ask someone else first."
Andrymeda	Posted - 2007.05.06 21:13:00 - [55] Originally by: SIMONP1965 im in a system where 2 cloaked ships have been hanging out for almost a month now, the alliance im in has about 100 players and game play in the system has almost come to a holt, im a paying player and so is the 100 players that use the system, thats $1500 a month and were being denied play by 2 players $30 a month, im about redy to just stop paying till CCP comes up with a way to detect cloaked ships, this is getting rediculas, im sure CCP never ment players to come in a system and shut it down for a month at a time... well i have to go and take my auto pay off now cause im not paying if i cant play in the system i want to... They don't have an advantage, but if you think they do, then they've tipped the balance in their favor. A cloaked ship (or a fleet) cannot do anyone any harm. If they uncloak, you are at advantage since they need a few extra seconds to recalibrate their sensors. Also, they can't re-cloak once you start targetting them. If you come within 1500m of a cloaked ship, you will force them to uncloak. No modules of any kind can be activated while cloaked, no drone operations either. That is the price covert pilots must pay to travel undetected. Which is why they are best suited to recon and BM placements so they can call in their fleets, but not battles. Bombers may be an exception (they can spam cruise missiles), but they have their limits and prices too. Bottom line, if a player is playing by the rules and not using any kind of exploits, CCP won't act, even when you make a good argument. Griefing and harrasment are different issues and those are handled on a case-by-case basis. What you described here does not sound like griefing or harrasment (but is getting close). My recommendation is to get some tactics that attack the weak spots of cloaked ships. A T2 tackler frigate would go a long way to helping you. Maybe a friendly cloaked ship. GL,
Blue Pixie	Posted - 2007.05.06 21:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Jayson Lee I have explained why its a secondary issue. Look, we could go round robin on this ad nauseam. What's the point? I believe the source of the problem is local chat. Either you don't believe that or simply don't care. That's your prerogative. Just don't expect me to dismiss it as a "secondary issue" so we can "discuss" a unilateral nerf to cloaking. Originally by: Jayson Lee Where did I suggest that I shouldnt have to be vigilant? Are you not suggesting in this very thread, that if CCP were to remove local, they'd have to replace it with a mechanic that was functionally identical? Originally by: Jayson Lee So lets remove local, what is your suggesting for cloaked ships? Would you then allow probes to find them out? YES! For goodness sakes, is it really that hard to decipher this is precisely what I'm suggesting? Originally by: Jayson Lee What, are you suggesting that you dont have a biased opinion in this matter? This is the second time in a very short post you have critized me for something that you yourself are guilty of. Doesnt that sound a little hypocritical of you? I have a "biased" opinion in favor of a legitimate discussion/compromise that addresses the interests of BOTH cloakers and non-cloakers alike. If that makes me sound hypocritical, so be it. I'll wear that title with honor. Originally by: Jayson Lee Why should a cloak be the only module in the game that can not be countered? Because there's currently no counter for the chat tab. Yes, I want to play cat and mouse, hunter vs prey. And yes, I want to change the game. Isn't that exactly what you're asking too? To change the game?? And by the way, cloaked pilots currently can be countered. But apparently, you and the OP both can't be arsed to fly with an escort.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.06 21:39:00 - [57] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Bait them then when they decloak kill them and shout wakkawakkawakka!!! in local. shouting wakkawakkawakka!!! in local is optional. Thread winner. Originally by: Benglada And whos going to tackle for them? Jesus?
Mike Wizouski Diligent Souls	Posted - 2007.05.07 02:52:00 - [58] QUICK! Someone call the WAAAHmbulance! Get a group and hunt them down... unless it's someone I know. Then you'll burn in hell!
SumDum AirHawk Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 03:16:00 - [59] Originally by: Mike Wizouski QUICK! Someone call the WAAAHmbulance! Get a group and hunt them down... unless it's someone I know. Then you'll burn in hell! Lol! Call Nine Wha Wha! AHE wants YOU!
Evengard Solar Dragons Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 03:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Jayson Lee Right now local is the only way to balance the game of EVE. If you want to play cat and mouse, hunter vs prey then you need to change the game. Currently the hunters have a very good idea of where the miners are, there is no way around that. To balance this inherent advantage that attacks get (knowning where your prey is at) its only fair that a system is in place that alerts miners that a hunter is in the area. Balanced ??? Bull***t! You jump into system, 50 au radius from gate to gate, 20+ belts. Need to kill carebear with cloack. Your action ?? ___________________ Recon and Intercept

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