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Thomas Torquemada Minmatar Universal Peace Corp	Posted - 2007.05.05 21:51:00 - [31] just reduce BC shields by 1/3. UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace? Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide! Peace My Brothers...
Badhands Gallente DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:02:00 - [32] The only ships people with passive tanks people complain about are battlecruisers. The problem is not with passive tanking, the problem is with battlecruisers. The problem is that battlecruisers base shield recharge time is the same as cruisers. .
Spacer John	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:10:00 - [33] People in these topics sound like broken records and for a good reason. Asking for passive shield tanking nerfs is plain ignorant. As someone mentioned it sounds like your main problem is the Drake. It can't hurt you, keep you from warping or flying off, and therefore can't kill you. What is the point of nerfing something that's no threat to you? I have put months of training and close to 200mil ISK on my current Drake. It is still less useful in PVP than other races ships for half the price or less. Why spend so much for a less useful ship? Without it there are almost no options for decent Caldari PVP ships. So basically your thread boils down to wanting to eliminate even the smallest chance Caldari has to PVP.
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:11:00 - [34] I agree, these should be nerfed. Someone has devoted money, skills, and all their slots to tank, and they can stop me from killing them. They need a nerf. Alongside all those ships that get t2 guns and damage mods with scramblers. Ships built just for gank can kill me, so, they need a nerf. Titans are too overpowered, nerf them. Of course, then carriers should be nerfed. Oh well, just remove everything from frigs, but make sure they all have only 1 gun, and its the same for everyone.
C Spawn Abyss Restless Proper Response	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:39:00 - [35] Quote: We all know how obscenely powerful passive shield tanks are We all know that they are NOT owerpowered. Quote: but that that of a higher ship class for as long as minutes, this is just ridiculous. What is ridiculous - hah, the drake's dps is ridiculous, when it maxtanked. So... If one fits his Drake to have The Tank - what does he receive? Only tank, no damage, no scram, no mwd, no ab, nothing but the tank. So teh easiest solution for passive-tank-whiners: if u see Drake - forget 'bout it until only drake left; u even may put 1 dampener and 1 web on it - and it will become stationary piece of shields. And then kill it. But if ur gang can't do more than 1000 dps, fit 1 dampener and 1 scram - ctrl+q and cancel ur EVE subscription. U even may kill yourself, if u are EMO enough. P.S. Passive myrmidons etc. - its' problem is not about passive tanking, its' problem is about drones and gallente itself. Blah-blah-blah.
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.05.05 22:42:00 - [36] Edited by: SFShootme on 05/05/2007 22:39:20 Quote: so basically what you are all saying, that its ok for a ship to be able to throw out 1200+ dps, but not ok for tanks to be able to match that? Passive tanks are just as overpowered as a ship being able to throw down 1200-1400 dps. Quote: What is the point of nerfing something that's no threat to you? Tho shall give Life, for Life.
Dark Kavar Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:37:00 - [37] Edited by: Dark Kavar on 06/05/2007 01:38:21 I know how to fix passive shield tanks, make them require you to use every single slot plus all 3 rigs slots to make them work Or how about this, make them absolutely useless for gang/solo pvp? Lets make them useful for baiting and pveing. This sound good to everyone? Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
Valandril Caldari Reiketsu.	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:53:00 - [38] Actualy they are sexy baithers already, really :P What i would like to see is a counter for this passive tank coz atm counter is "more dreads pls" :P --- Cheap paint ftw
Jak Silverheart Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.06 01:58:00 - [39] Edited by: Jak Silverheart on 06/05/2007 01:56:36 Originally by: Dark Kavar Edited by: Dark Kavar on 06/05/2007 01:38:21 I know how to fix passive shield tanks, make them require you to use every single slot plus all 3 rigs slots to make them work Or how about this, make them absolutely useless for gang/solo pvp? Lets make them useful for baiting and pveing. This sound good to everyone? Nah were being to nice, we should really nerf their freaking DPS, its freaking insane man. Did you know I dedicated MONTHS to using a drake and I still have a ways to go, and I can SOMETIMES insta pop a frig in missions. Im not talking bout those little frigs in the starter missions either, im talking hardcore lv1 and lv2 frigs. Let CCP know we dont want that kind of GANK and TANK in a ship, its not right it imbalances Eve when you have a chance to actually insta pop a pod or shuttle. (I am sorry my carebearing brothers I have betrayed you, but this had to be said ) Originally by: Scordite Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
Dark Kavar Caldari Aionios Diadochi The Makhai	Posted - 2007.05.06 02:20:00 - [40] Originally by: Jak Silverheart Edited by: Jak Silverheart on 06/05/2007 01:56:36 Originally by: Dark Kavar Edited by: Dark Kavar on 06/05/2007 01:38:21 I know how to fix passive shield tanks, make them require you to use every single slot plus all 3 rigs slots to make them work Or how about this, make them absolutely useless for gang/solo pvp? Lets make them useful for baiting and pveing. This sound good to everyone? Nah were being to nice, we should really nerf their freaking DPS, its freaking insane man. Did you know I dedicated MONTHS to using a drake and I still have a ways to go, and I can SOMETIMES insta pop a frig in missions. Im not talking bout those little frigs in the starter missions either, im talking hardcore lv1 and lv2 frigs. Let CCP know we dont want that kind of GANK and TANK in a ship, its not right it imbalances Eve when you have a chance to actually insta pop a pod or shuttle. (I am sorry my carebearing brothers I have betrayed you, but this had to be said ) How dare drake pilots do that, next thing you know we might actually be able to kill a destroyer . dun dun DUN Kind of like the Triforce in Zelda, only not quite as potent.
AegriSomnia Caldari Aegis Incorporated	Posted - 2007.05.06 02:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Dramiel Vans Edited by: Dramiel Vans on 05/05/2007 13:15:17 Fitting 1600mm plates to cruisers was nerfed and so should fitting large extenders to cruisers be. UMMM...... You wanna see my Thorax with 1600 mm plate on it? Just IM me in game. Its how I roll. They just need to raise the base sheild regen time on a drake. Done.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2007.05.06 04:54:00 - [42] even that wouldn't be solving the bigger problem.. I do understand the issues people have with nerfing passive shield tanks, but atm you can tank a myrmi (the one with the armour rep amount bonus) better with a passive shield tank than with the armour tank... That's just silly... All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Gerod Theron Edited by: Gerod Theron on 05/05/2007 13:49:13 how is it overpowereds?the number of slot needed for a passive shield tank is absurd. on the drake it takes all 6 mids and all 4 lows aswell as all 3 rigs slots. that 10 fitting slots.crist. so what is being said is that anyrtime a ship deticates itself to ONE thing and sacrifices EVERYTHING else that it needs to be nerfed? becose thats what passive shield tanking is.it turns the ship into a fangless chunk of hard to kill metal.no dps,no e war nothing cept shields. dosnt seem to overpowered to me. Lets remove the stacking nerf on damage mods then? Right after cap regen mods get a stacking nerf, same with NOS. Enjoy that noskill gankageddon that can't sustain cap long enough to gank another BS.
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Akita T Well, either way, the problem is NOT with passive shield tanking in general, but with certain ships (ship classes) in particular. More precisely, it's a problem with Battlecruisers and Command Ships, not with passive shield tanks. And yes, indeed, the simpler solution would be to just increase shield recharge time for BCs and CSs a bit. In other words, switch from 1250 seconds base recharge to, say, 1500 seconds or even 1600 seconds. That would mean a 20% (or 28%) longer recharge time, therefore also a weaker passive recharge rate (16.6% or 21.8% weaker). I don't think you realize how much of a nerf you're talking about giving. If I dedicate my entirely ship to tanking, it should tank hard, passive or active. Also, You're dead wrong if you think BCs are the only ones who passive tank extremely well, but I'll be damned if I tell you or anyone else about other ships that are uber like that. CCP yes, you no. The only problem with passive shield tanks, is that CCP screwed up and made Gallente ships king of it, just like they're kings of everything else. Think I'm wrong? I can setup a T1 passive shield tank on a myrmidon that can tank far better than a T2 MAR powered tank, and dual T2 MAR tank won't run forever. why so uber? Because CCP put the end-all-be-all shield regen mods as lowslot mods, which the Caldari get the least of of all races. Then you have the extenders added to ships like the myr, who have naturally bad max hp, but not bad regen. If the myr has 1k shields and a 1k regen, and the Drake has 2k shields and 1k regen, the myrmidon's regen more than triples, the drake barely more than doubles. Then you throw half a dozen SPR on the myrmidon's already better regen, and 4 on the Drake. Sure the Drake ha a few k more shields, but that means what exactly when the myrmidon has such a massive advantage in regen? 99.9% of the time, the drake's extra shields won't mean a thing, whereas the superior DPS tank of the myr will. Gallente need all their ship's shield regen time doubled, same with amarr. Drake needs to lose the resists bonus, Myrmidon needs to lose rep bonus. There is no reason whatsoever for supposed 'gank' Battlecruisers, to have tanking bonuses. Give the Drake ROF and explosion radius/velocity, and give the Myrmidon Drone Damage and blaster tracking (the myr already has some insane DPS ability due to 5 heavy drones).
Namingway Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Jaedar Metron this is just ridicilous... Passive tanks ARE NOT overpowered. I really hope CCP manages to look at this objectively instead of just listening to the whiners IF however passive tnaking gets nefred, I'll want something in return. Reduce powergrid? Give HAM launchers better range, damage and 60-80 base pg fitting. Stacking penalty to recharge? Fine, you do that, but then I want a rof bonus to all missiles in all Caldari missile ships. Then atleast I would be able to dish out damage that is closer to the dmg the other racial BC's are dishing out. Fix it in whatever way you damn want, but I want something in return for making it useless. One last thing. I dont fly those "omg overpowered" passive Drakes. I fit my Drake so that my damage isnt outmatched by a gankThorax. Oh wait, it is, damn. Oh well, atleast my tank's ok. Opps. Just got melted by a dualrepping Brutix. Damn. Setup 7x HM II 1x MNOS 2x Invul II 1x EM II 1x Scram 1x Web 1x LSE II 2x BCS II 2x PDS II I know some of you probably is going to find sever flaws in my rant. I'll be happy to come up with more ranting to counter your answers. bah. Fit an RCU if you need to, and swap to HAMs since you're going to be in HAM range if you're trying to tackle your target, and you shouldn't ignore having 25% more damage.
Kasshim Omega Strike Force	Posted - 2007.05.06 05:58:00 - [46] All these people whining about how passive tanks are overpowered seem to be people who want to be able to kill everything solo and don't like their prey being able to fight back or survive. A passive tank is only over powered if it gives somebody the ability to tank insane amounts of DPS and still be able to dish out the DPS to kill almost any ship solo. Ask yourselves this, is the drake or other battle cruisers with passive tanks able to do both tank and gank? I fly a drake and sure I can tank well but that's it. If I decide to fit for maximum tanking, I can't kill any ship bigger than a cruiser unless the pilot's setup is crap. I can't scram, web, damp, or jam him to keep him from running or fighting back. How is that overpowered? BS's that are setup reasonably well will always kill me 1 vs 1, it will only take a few minutes longer. Till I see more respectable pvp (Veto, BoB, etc.)alliances/corps. complaining about passive tanked battle cruisers I say they are fine as is.
J Valkor NayTech Inc	Posted - 2007.05.06 06:31:00 - [47] ... Just to re-iterate, how is a ship that can't scramble, damage, or webify you a problem? Is it just that it takes time for you to kill it? Or it is because you don't like ships that are almost immune to NOS? Tell you what - nerf NOS and you can nerf passive tanking as well.
Pottsey Gallente Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.06 07:57:00 - [48] Edited by: Pottsey on 06/05/2007 07:56:32 ôThe only problem with passive shield tanks, is that CCP screwed up and made Gallente ships king of it, just like they're kings of everything else.ö Gallente should be the kinds of it. Back when they invented it they werenÆt the masters of everything. ôGallente need all their ship's shield regen time doubled, same with amarr.ö Everyone but Gallente needs the shield regen 25% slower while Gallente should be 25% faster only with a -% hitpoint penalty while Caldaria get a hitpoint bonus. That way we can go back to how it should be. Caldari have the best hitpoint passive tanks with medium HP regen. Gallente have the best regen passive tanks with medium hitpoints. Much better then now with both Caldari and Gallente who have high hitpoints and regen. Passive tanking used to be about recharge now most passive tankers donÆt even use shied recharges. Surly shield recharges should be the best/main module for passive tankers. ôJust to re-iterate, how is a ship that can't scramble, damage, or webify you a problem?ö Gallente ships can scramble, web and deal damage as a passive tank. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Glauxian Brothers Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.05.06 11:44:00 - [49] Passive tanked drake is far off from overpowered. Afaik other races have bc's with same tanking ability if set up right. Passive Drake is very vulnerable for nossing which takes out any active resist mods and makes you unable to warp. Also drake with -good- tank cannot have any scramblers or webifiers, or mwd. In addition to that it's so slow it's easy to scramble. So only thing it can do is spit heavy missiles and tank, which do not have really that good dmg, generally. If you really want good pvp drake you try to fit hams, speed and scrams, which means not so good tank. I really fail to see "overpower" anywhere. Personally I think drakes are easiest bc's to gank, heh. If some solo ship can't take out another fast I see no problem yet.
Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.06 14:33:00 - [50] Originally by: Bentula I think the op underestimates the firepower of BCs. Some BCs can do easily more than your average BS on the dps side of things. I think its impossible to balance passive tanks in a way so that it holds against heavy hitting BCs while at the same time folding under any BS(your argument is the sizedifference). How about throwing some numbers around, how much dps exactly do you think a passive tanked drake should be able to survive? Tbh i have no idea, 200 would be way to less, considering it dedicates all its slots to the tank. 400 is probably still less than a dual armor tank which leaves the possibility of pvp mods. 800 already sounds a bit much if it was the lowest resist. Then again if a drake can tank over 1k dps(probably more) from a geddon it most likely is especially fitted to deal with em + therm, and imho deserves to tank it quite a while. You are absolutely right in that PPL underestimate the firepower that BC's can dish out. I'm not going to crunch numbers because I am lazy, but the DPS of a Drake with total Passive tank ( all mids/lows used) a pilot with decent missile skills is enough to kill the officer in Angel extrava level 4. This rat has caused problems for mission runners in Ravens with its decent tank so to say the Drake has crap DPS is wrong. As for solo PVP if you sacrifice a couple of mids for a scrambler and another mod and a BCU or 2 in the lows then yes your passive tank is going to be compromised. I can't see a passive tanked ship being a problem in a gang though as long as there are tacklers in the gang, and in some situations (bait for example) I can see advantages to using them. Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
VanNostrum Cataphract Securities Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.05.06 14:40:00 - [51] Sorry but i don't think shield tanks are overpowered. Shield tank gets maximum regen between 30-40% shield left, and one big alpha dmg drops it below 30% = bye bye shield. Plus, you need to almost use every slot you have to achieve big shield regens, so no speed, no dmg mods, no EW, nothing. If you can't kill the tank, just leave. Yes my char is Caldari, but i'm not shield tanking, i'm flying minmatar+gallente with armor tanks.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.05.06 15:00:00 - [52] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson As for solo PVP if you sacrifice a couple of mids for a scrambler and another mod and a BCU or 2 in the lows then yes your passive tank is going to be compromised. I can't see a passive tanked ship being a problem in a gang though as long as there are tacklers in the gang, and in some situations (bait for example) I can see advantages to using them. Little problem there, BCs are not the fastest of ships. And sometimes you have to reapproach gate ASAP(like when local jumps up or your scouts screams madly). I dont think its a good idea to be the only one in a gang without a MWD, and if you fit one you compromise your tank greatly. Thats the reason i dont use passive tanks for pvp atm, you dont just loose your EW and scramblers and stuff but also your mobility.
Pottsey Gallente Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.06 21:45:00 - [53] ôShield tank gets maximum regen between 30-40% shield left, and one big alpha dmg drops it below 30% = bye bye shield.ö Nothing short of a Doomsday blast is going knock you down from 40% to under 30%. One big alpha damage is not going work unless your talking multiple ships fireing. ôPlus, you need to almost use every slot you have to achieve big shield regens, so no speed, no dmg mods, no EW, nothing. If you can't [kill the tank, just leave.ö I really get fed up of reading that. ItÆs not been true for a long time not since they added T2 passive tank modules. Now we have T2 passive tank modules we can use less slots up for tanking and fit EW and/or damage mods and still have a good tank. My passive tank can fit a web, scarm and microwarp. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Jaedar Metron Artificial Horizons YouWhat	Posted - 2007.05.06 21:56:00 - [54] Originally by: Pottsey ôShield tank gets maximum regen between 30-40% shield left, and one big alpha dmg drops it below 30% = bye bye shield.ö Nothing short of a Doomsday blast is going knock you down from 40% to under 30%. One big alpha damage is not going work unless your talking multiple ships fireing. ôPlus, you need to almost use every slot you have to achieve big shield regens, so no speed, no dmg mods, no EW, nothing. If you can't [kill the tank, just leave.ö I really get fed up of reading that. ItÆs not been true for a long time not since they added T2 passive tank modules. Now we have T2 passive tank modules we can use less slots up for tanking and fit EW and/or damage mods and still have a good tank. My passive tank can fit a web, scarm and microwarp. Of course you can. Youre flying a Myrmidon. See a pattern here? The DRAKE is fine. The MYRMIDON needs to be seriosly looked at. Perhaps a stacking penalty on some resistmodules could work. But please make it so that the stacking only would apply if you fitted 4-5+ modules that lowered the recharge.
VanNostrum Cataphract Securities Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.05.06 22:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Jaedar Metron Originally by: Pottsey ôShield tank gets maximum regen between 30-40% shield left, and one big alpha dmg drops it below 30% = bye bye shield.ö Nothing short of a Doomsday blast is going knock you down from 40% to under 30%. One big alpha damage is not going work unless your talking multiple ships fireing. ôPlus, you need to almost use every slot you have to achieve big shield regens, so no speed, no dmg mods, no EW, nothing. If you can't [kill the tank, just leave.ö I really get fed up of reading that. ItÆs not been true for a long time not since they added T2 passive tank modules. Now we have T2 passive tank modules we can use less slots up for tanking and fit EW and/or damage mods and still have a good tank. My passive tank can fit a web, scarm and microwarp. Of course you can. Youre flying a Myrmidon. See a pattern here? The DRAKE is fine. The MYRMIDON needs to be seriosly looked at. Perhaps a stacking penalty on some resistmodules could work. But please make it so that the stacking only would apply if you fitted 4-5+ modules that lowered the recharge. indeed it's the gallente ships with drone dmg bonuses that make the passive shield tank and NOS so powerful. Gallente ships with many low slots allow better passive shield tank than caldari/minmatar ships, or they can active armor tank. In either setup high slots will be filled with NOS, but these ships still get full DPS from drones. So gallente ships with nos + drone bonuses + passive shield tanks get everything without any sacrifice. Cant have this in other race ships, to have one you gotta sacrifice a little on something else. I'm not for a nerf for gallente ships either, or a nerf on passive shield tanking. If NOS gets a fix, these wont be issues anymore. A myrm/domi will still be able to shield tank + have drone dps, but without the benefit of nos power. NOS is an offensive module, as well as defensive since u get cap for your active tank, making myrm/domi all too powerful. Drake is what it's supposed to be imo. A good shield tank and a lower DPS than other BCs, in exchange of tackling/EW/speed. Other than that, shield tanking isn't overpowered imo.
Pottsey Gallente Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.05.07 08:54:00 - [56] ôOf course you can. Youre flying a Myrmidon.ö The Caldari ships can still web, scarm and microwarp and have a decent tank. They might not do as much DPS as the Myrmidon but they still stop the enemy running away while your friends do damage. The problem is shield extenders everything was ok before they got boosted. Nerf shield extenders and boost shield rechargers. Shield rechargers should give more hP regen then extenders. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.05.07 09:58:00 - [57] Shield Rechargers are not useful if you can fit an extender - thats a shame... Shield Extenders are not grouped like Armor plates... I think the entire balance issue lies in the stats of the shield extenders. Passive tanking is barely a threat to anybody, but I suggest increasing ALL shield Extenders with 50% and at the same time increase the powergrid requirements with 50%. At the same time It could be a good idea to run through the shield recharge for BC's and BS's just to make sure they are balanced... This will result in micro and small Extenders could be usable onboard Frigates and Destroyers. Medium will no longer be used on frigates. Large extenders will be hard fitting on cruisers and below - you might still fit some but not get the same amount of shield as before and they will be viable again on BS's It's not the plates using too little PG, its because you can just squeeze in 1 oversized extender more than you actually need. This will also free up some space on passive setups to compensate a little - I'm a nice guy!! and OMG I love Team Tuxford for the speedbalancing...
Lydia Browm Gallente	Posted - 2007.05.07 10:17:00 - [58] I just like to say that a Drake can gank and tank at pretty much the same time, on SiSi some guy came up with a setup that couldn't be broken by a Abso and Astarte, while at the saem tiem he had 7 T2 Launchers and Fury Missiles, so, surely other ships should be able to fit a full tank and then Neutron Blasters, Biggest Calliber gun etc. ___________________________________________ Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty...
steveid Viziam	Posted - 2007.05.07 10:29:00 - [59] Originally by: Gerod Theron Edited by: Gerod Theron on 05/05/2007 14:04:15 Edited by: Gerod Theron on 05/05/2007 14:03:25 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Gerod Theron Edited by: Gerod Theron on 05/05/2007 13:49:13 how is it overpowereds?the number of slot needed for a passive shield tank is absurd. on the drake it takes all 6 mids and all 4 lows aswell as all 3 rigs slots. that 10 fitting slots.crist. so what is being said is that anyrtime a ship deticates itself to ONE thing and sacrifices EVERYTHING else that it needs to be nerfed? becose thats what passive shield tanking is.it turns the ship into a fangless chunk of hard to kill metal.no dps,no e war nothing cept shields. dosnt seem to overpowered to me. Lets remove the stacking nerf on damage mods then? plus damage is different. i mean with a passive drake shure it takes for ever to break the tank but in 1v1 a passive drake is no threat what so ever. at all. none. thier is absolutely no damage coming from it.really what is it good for? the olny people crying are gate campers who cant kill it in 2 secs. is thier a stacking ne4rf for plates? I had a group of three drakes and two brutix's try to take down my geddon at a gate in low sec and popped both the brutix's before jumping. Altho i knew i wouldn't be able to take down any of the drakes in time it was relatively easy to tank their dmage for a long time. I consider this to be balanced personally. What isn't balanced is the myrmidom who has a better tank and puts out fairly serious damage to a battleship that would have trouble popping drones.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange	Posted - 2007.05.07 12:54:00 - [60] Originally by: Gerod Theron exactly!!!!!! a drake passive tank is useless in any pvp batle.no dps no e war ect... the power only shows it self when gate campers can not kill it in 2 seconds. Not useless as a Drake makes for a great bait ship.

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