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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.06 11:24:00 -
[1]
As some of you might know Kali v2 is running on the test server and that means invention of ammo and drones has been enabled.
The first thing I attempted to invent was Hammerhead II drones so created 9 max run BPCs. And while they were cooking I collected a pile of datacores, Electronic Engineering and Mechanical Engineering to be more specific. For light drones you need one each, for medium two each and as you can guess for heavy drones you need three of each.
With all the items ready for invention I started 9 jobs as follow:
Max run Hammerhead I BPC 2 x Datacore Electronic Engineering 2 x Datacore Mechanical Engineering Incognito Tuner Data Interface Skills at 4/3/3
I was surprised to find the invention time at a station only was 30min so shortly after the invention jobs were ready to hatch.
The result:
5 x 10run Hammerhead II BPCs
Only doing 9 inventions doesn't give you a good baseline but say this is the expected average, then the built Hammerhead II drones in Jita are 200k cheaper than each invented BPC...
Ok so drones are a no go to invent with the current prices, lets try some ammo. Barrage M has jumped nicely in price after the projectile turrets got cheaper.
After making 9 max run BPCs for Nuclear M it was time to put them in the magic cooker as well so this is how the jobs were installed:
Max run Nuclear M BPC 1 x Datacore - Electronic Engineering 1 x Datacore - Mechanical Engineering 1 x Cryptic Data Interface Skill 3/3/3
Invention time in station 6h 40min Ok, CCP love inconsistency so shouldn't have surprised me but still that is 13x longer than a medium drone invention.
Many hours later it was time to hatch the invention jobs.
The result:
7 x 1 run Barrage M BPCs
Ok so each run will make 5000 rounds but with the need for one of the most expensive datacores in game it won't give you profit anytime soon even with a 100% success rate. One thing to mention though, all ammo except drones only need one of each datacore regardless of size.
All ammo use the racial interfaces except missiles, they use the racial interface for the damagetype they do (paradise cruise use occult interface and so on).
So all in all, I really hope CCP rethink the whole drone/ammo invention or it will only be a waste of database space.
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Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.06 15:27:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 06/05/2007 15:27:13
At this point I'd like to say
a). thanks Dominique. this information will be v. handy to all of those who have been looking to doing drone and ammo invention
b). CCP, why the f*** does every invention job under the sun need mech eng!? There are soemthing like 20 fields, and the adding of mech eng as a need for ammo as well will almost certainly bring the % of stuff that needs mech eng cores over 20%. Furthermore mech eng is required for ship invention, which consumes the most cores of any invention job, and has the lowest success rate, meaning you need even more
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.05.06 15:52:00 -
[3]
Yea, I didn't really expect drone and ammo invention to be profitable, but requiring mech eng cores seems like a bit much.
I suppose this will become less of an issue over time as more people get mech eng agents. Still, now people with minmatar faction have an advantage over everyone else in both the ship and drone/ammo invention areas. (The best mech eng agents are minmatar.)
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maarud
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.06 15:58:00 -
[4]
You really should be posting this in the dev forum, where the testers will actually be looking.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.06 15:59:00 -
[5]
I just posted in General discussion where more ppl will see it
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Zoukanix
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.05.06 16:09:00 -
[6]
your argument that it is impossible to create drones or missiles with a profit for invented BPCs may currently be true but you have to factor in several things. firstly they will be removing (changing to limited run BPC's) all the current BPO II's in the game (or i beleive this was the plan). which means that all the BPO's will dispaer and we will have to rely on invention for T2 itens. obviously this is a big big change and for this reason the change must occur slowly and they need to ensure invention is CAPABLE of taking the place of t2 BPO's before they consider removing them. so what thhe ehll has this got to do with droine an missile invention. well once the BPO's have been changed to BPC's there will be no BPO competition, ok so the prices may flucuate a bit, but come on we're all used to thatg now anyways. the 2nd arguement is that datacores are 2 expensive. well again this is market driven the higher ur datacore prices are the more ppl who will research that field and the prices will eventaully drop / level off. this is the nature of a supply and demand market, and CCP couldnt/ shouldnt/ wouldnt change that. another point is that currently there are ppl out there who are still saving their RP for the last few BPO's that get dished out via the lottey, so for this reason the market has not been as 'flooded' with datacores as it eventually will be as well as that extra supply currently not being used. this means that currwentl;y yes datacore prices are still high, but if CCP interfere they can cause a swing too much the othwer way. personally i think CCP have handled the whole invention system very well and it just needs time for the market to 'stabalise'. ok so u may not be able to make money off drones/ ammo atm, move onto something that IS profitable. then as the ammount of ammo/ drones beiong produced comes down the the demand will increase and so for will the price and hey-presto u can make a profit again.
pete
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maarud
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.06 16:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: maarud You really should be posting this in the dev forum, where the testers will actually be looking.
Just emphasing this again, general discussion != game development forum
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.05.06 17:37:00 -
[8]
Edited by: CCP Chronotis on 06/05/2007 17:35:05 The drone invention times are too low really in comparison with everything else as you pointed out. They should really be around 9000 seconds (2.5 hours) similar to modules which I will correct.
the data interface should be the standard 'data interface' and not the tuner as it not a rig which has just been corrected.
Regarding the runs output, That was the main sucky thing about putting this stuff in as I knew it would never be profitable under the current mechanics as current demand for t2 ammo (its not really tech 2 either, more like advanced) was pretty low against the volume output of the BPO producers so there is little room for any invention profit margin. It is slightly better for drones but not much. But then we face that issue for modules and ships as the margins fall and will continue to do so until we reach the point where invention is not profitable and supply returns back to the BPO baseline.
What might happen is I will remove the mech. engineering datacore from all ammo/drone requirements and leave it at 1 datacore, 1 incognito data interface for the drones (scout/medium/heavy) as an example. But inevitably the profit margin available will always be low if not non-existent for many items. I have yet to sit down with Hammerhead and finalise any changes regarding tweaking datacore requirements for modules and ships as I suggested in the blog but that should happen in the next few weeks before the final update is made to sisi.
Speaking more broadly tech 2 invention is just a foundation to setting up of tech 3 so its a special case really where we are dealing with a baseline BPO supply and irregular demand, whereas tech 3 will be more dependant on the specific demand and the supply opportunities available solely from invention.
Good feedback as ever!
(btw you much more likely to catch my attention here or in game development forum or even better bug reports :))
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.06 18:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The drone invention times are too low really in comparison with everything else as you pointed out. They should really be around 9000 seconds (2.5 hours) similar to modules which I will correct.
So 24000 seconds for ammo is intended then?
Originally by: CCP Chronotis the data interface should be the standard 'data interface' and not the tuner as it not a rig which has just been corrected.
It did put a smile on my face when I noticed it though. Considering the missiles are split up on racial interface per damage type, how about doing it for drones as well?
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Regarding the runs output, That was the main sucky thing about putting this stuff in as I knew it would never be profitable under the current mechanics as current demand for t2 ammo (its not really tech 2 either, more like advanced) was pretty low against the volume output of the BPO producers so there is little room for any invention profit margin. It is slightly better for drones but not much. But then we face that issue for modules and ships as the margins fall and will continue to do so until we reach the point where invention is not profitable and supply returns back to the BPO baseline.
What might happen is I will remove the mech. engineering datacore from all ammo/drone requirements and leave it at 1 datacore, 1 incognito data interface for the drones (scout/medium/heavy) as an example. But inevitably the profit margin available will always be low if not non-existent for many items. I have yet to sit down with Hammerhead and finalise any changes regarding tweaking datacore requirements for modules and ships as I suggested in the blog but that should happen in the next few weeks before the final update is made to sisi.
It would definitely be nice to see mech. engineering cores removed. An alternative would be to increase the base run for the T2 bpc's but I guess that is based on a ratio the max run you can do on the T2 BPO right?
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Speaking more broadly tech 2 invention is just a foundation to setting up of tech 3 so its a special case really where we are dealing with a baseline BPO supply and irregular demand, whereas tech 3 will be more dependant on the specific demand and the supply opportunities available solely from invention.
Tech 3 will be nice to try out one day. How will that work anyway, are you going to introduce new skills/interfaces or will it just be as now but with higher skill requirements?
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Good feedback as ever!
(btw you much more likely to catch my attention here or in game development forum or even better bug reports :))
Well bug reports are a bit dull, you send it away and never hear anything back nor have a chance to discuss it. Hopefully the new system will make it better.
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Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.06 18:48:00 -
[10]
Actually, I'd expect that as more people say "hang on, T2 cruise launchers are now half the price of arbalest, why not go T2?" that T2 weapons will become a lot more popular.
But the ammo has to be keeping up with that, both in price and supply. The two kinda go hand in hand in that people won't take up T2 weapons if ammo is expensive and people won't make T2 ammo if not eough ppl are buying
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Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.06 18:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Speaking more broadly tech 2 invention is just a foundation to setting up of tech 3 so its a special case really where we are dealing with a baseline BPO supply and irregular demand, whereas tech 3 will be more dependant on the specific demand and the supply opportunities available solely from invention.
It just concerns me that by the time T3 comes along, T1 bpo's won't be worth the paper they're printed on. Especially considering everyone already gets all the T1 they'll ever need from loot drops, with named items, which are already better than vanilla T1 people manufacture
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2007.05.06 22:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Sphynx Stormlord on 06/05/2007 22:16:25
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
It just concerns me that by the time T3 comes along, T1 bpo's won't be worth the paper they're printed on. Especially considering everyone already gets all the T1 they'll ever need from loot drops, with named items, which are already better than vanilla T1 people manufacture
And you for some reason dont think that we will need T1 bpo's to make copies to invent T2 bpcs, to invent T3 bpcs with then? Or at least need T1 bpcs to invent T3 bpcs.
And that we will need T1 modules during the T3 build process?
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Dei
Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.07 00:39:00 -
[13]
I think the argument is that you will only need the t1 BPOs for exactly one thing - inventing. The t1 market is saturated with products sold at cost, so everyone goes to t2 when invention comes out. t2 market suddenly becomes near perfect competition. ---
The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack |
Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.07 11:45:00 -
[14]
I think there are many people who might come to the game like I did wanting to be industrial players / crafters and might be discouraged by T1, the entry level for manufacturers, being utterly saturated and devoid of profit.
Loot is the problem.
Everyone gets all the T1 stuff they'll ever need from loot.
The crappy vanilla loot, that is the only T1 stuff players can make, is the stuff that mission runners and ratters sell off for cost, keeping the good stuff for themselves. And even then, named stuff gets sold off because ppl have an excess of it. So even now, most budding T1 manufacturers have no chance except maybe with ammo
I really feel strongly that all loot needs to be like drone loot is atm. I.e. alloys that can only be melted for mins and not used any other how.
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Ghostshadow
Templars of Space CORE.
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Posted - 2007.05.07 15:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
I think there are many people who might come to the game like I did wanting to be industrial players / crafters and might be discouraged by T1, the entry level for manufacturers, being utterly saturated and devoid of profit.
Loot is the problem.
Everyone gets all the T1 stuff they'll ever need from loot.
The crappy vanilla loot, that is the only T1 stuff players can make, is the stuff that mission runners and ratters sell off for cost, keeping the good stuff for themselves. And even then, named stuff gets sold off because ppl have an excess of it. So even now, most budding T1 manufacturers have no chance except maybe with ammo
I really feel strongly that all loot needs to be like drone loot is atm. I.e. alloys that can only be melted for mins and not used any other how.
That would KILL 0.0 space. Its hard enough to find anything i need out here as it is.
____________________________________________ A * B = C A = Skill Points B = GPA C = a Constant. Guess what happens to B as A increases.
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phillip duncan
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Posted - 2007.05.07 15:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zoukanix your argument that it is impossible to create drones or missiles with a profit for invented BPCs may currently be true but you have to factor in several things. firstly they will be removing (changing to limited run BPC's) all the current BPO II's in the game (or i beleive this was the plan). which means that all the BPO's will dispaer and we will have to rely on invention for T2 itens. obviously this is a big big change and for this reason the change must occur slowly and they need to ensure invention is CAPABLE of taking the place of t2 BPO's before they consider removing them.
I thought that the Devs said they were not replacing the BPO's only stopping the lottery of new ones. Part of the reason for this was to inshore a supply of Tech2 and as they could not easily plce a fair number of runs on the BPC that replace the BPO due to the fact they have been sold for a lot of money.
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.05.07 15:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ghostshadow
Originally by: Spoon Thumb I really feel strongly that all loot needs to be like drone loot is atm. I.e. alloys that can only be melted for mins and not used any other how.
That would KILL 0.0 space. Its hard enough to find anything i need out here as it is.
It would just require that you and others in 0.0 get a POS with refinery and manufacturing arrays and cooperate with other players more, which I think would be a good thing. After all this is supposed to be a multi-player game.
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.05.07 15:29:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dyeadmheet on 07/05/2007 15:25:19
Originally by: phillip duncan Part of the reason for this was to inshore a supply of Tech2 and as they could not easily plce a fair number of runs on the BPC that replace the BPO due to the fact they have been sold for a lot of money.
Personally I think they (CCP) should just buy the T2 BPOs back from players at whatever price they were last selling at before invention. That would be the more fair thing to do for everyone.
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Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.05.07 23:17:00 -
[19]
One of the things talked about by devs in the audio devblog was regarding outpost upgrades to increase manu slots
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Vasiliyan
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.05.08 15:14:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
I think there are many people who might come to the game like I did wanting to be industrial players / crafters and might be discouraged by T1, the entry level for manufacturers, being utterly saturated and devoid of profit.
Ships?
Then there's picking the right modules or ammo. In another thread I was reading about how Nanofiber I and Expanded Cargohold I could have markups of over 100% if sold in the right place. For a personal example, I was recently unable to buy any Fusion L in Hek, an otherwise well-stocked market hub.
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Liam Money
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.05.08 15:50:00 -
[21]
I really think taking T2 BPO's out of the game would be silly at this point. I personally don't have any, but since invention has started to set its roots in the game, the market is getting more reasonable and competitive. All in all I think invention is doing a fine job of enabling people to create their own T2 items if the prices are outrageous and force the monopoly owners to quit being such pigs.
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage
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Posted - 2007.05.09 00:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Liam Money I really think taking T2 BPO's out of the game would be silly at this point. I personally don't have any, but since invention has started to set its roots in the game, the market is getting more reasonable and competitive. All in all I think invention is doing a fine job of enabling people to create their own T2 items if the prices are outrageous and force the monopoly owners to quit being such pigs.
I think invention was simply to cap t2 bpo owners profits. Not to make t2 bpos obsolete and worthless.
My problem with invention is the fact that it's basically making T2 like T1, where profit margins are basically your paying people to take the items from you. Any profit you do make can be made by killing 2-3 0.0 NPC's.
I would have liked to see invention only possible in POS's. Then it would require some serious investment and people would have to have an asset that could be attacked. Rather than just alt's sitting in a station all day nice and safely. This would have kept profit margins up for inventers that made the investment of a POS.
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Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.05.09 03:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Liam Money All in all I think invention is doing a fine job of enabling people to create their own T2 items if the prices are outrageous and force the monopoly owners to quit being such pigs.
Invention does set price caps, however those caps are determined by core prices and core prices are (theoretically, assuming everyone makes smart and completely informed decisions on what to make) determined by the price of the most profitable item that can be invented with those cores.
Right now there are only a few items that really stand out as profitable. I think the set of profitable items will change over time, but I doubt the number of items in the set is going to change much....
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.05.09 05:12:00 -
[24]
through all of this,, i want to know what the T3 stats would be like,,, some T2 stuff is already quite chunky,, i mean, especially with ships, whats better than something with 0/80/70/60 base resists? Improve Market Competition! |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.09 07:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs through all of this,, i want to know what the T3 stats would be like,,, some T2 stuff is already quite chunky,, i mean, especially with ships, whats better than something with 0/80/70/60 base resists?
T3 is all about heat so a T3 ship will be able to dissipate more heat to allow your modules to run over the limit for longer before taking damage.
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maarud
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.05.09 07:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs through all of this,, i want to know what the T3 stats would be like,,, some T2 stuff is already quite chunky,, i mean, especially with ships, whats better than something with 0/80/70/60 base resists?
T3 is all about heat so a T3 ship will be able to dissipate more heat to allow your modules to run over the limit for longer before taking damage.
Actually, T3 is all about modding your weapons afaik, perhaps ships with more rig slots etc.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Maverick McDougel
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.09 08:02:00 -
[27]
the first thing alot of people do not realize is that some t2 ammo is not a profit maker at all. i own a t2 ammo bpo and it just sits in my hanger and is ONLY built when corp members or alliance members ask for a batch at build cost. the issue is a much larger amount can be built using the current bpo's then is consumed, so the profit margin is not there like people think. a 5k round batch takes about 1 day to make. and with, i am not sure but guessing, there are more then 20 bpo's in game that is at least 100k rounds a day that can be produced. when i look at jita market history it has a very fluctuating volume, but it looks like about an average of 10k purchased a day and enough volume on the market for nearly 2 months of sells with no more sell orders being put up. the issue is production from bpo's alone exceeds market demand. so there is such a small profit margin.
i own a terror rage assault missle bpo and is has some profit margin. other bpo's like the rocket bpo's are such a small profit margin that you can litterally make more isk making t1 iteams than you can t2 iteams.
people keep on wanting to have t2 bpo's removed, but they fail to realize that if t2 bpo's were removed it would cause some t2 mods to actually go up in price and not decrease due to invention.
you complain about only getting 7 1 run copies, but do you realize that in your little 1 day experiment you can produce more in 1 day then a t2 bpo can in a whole week running at full production.
there is a very good use for t2 ammo invention though. in 0.0 the only current way to get t2 ammo is to fly it out there and risk getting your hauler blown up. with invention you can invent and sometimes run all the production without ever entering empire by hacking datacores, harvesting moon mins for t2 components and running invention jobs/manufacturing in a 0.0 station. this effectively makes it harder to blocade your enemy in 0.0. even with a higher production cost people will still invent t2 ammo in 0.0 since a slightly higher production cost will be better then risking getting your hauler blown up with a hold full of ammo you need for an upcomming fight.
t2 invention was not put in place so you can make isk off it. it was put there so you can get t2 bpc's for t3 invention without having t2 prices quadruple due to people making copies for t3 instead of building from.
do you all know how covert ops cloaks used to be build? the covert ops cloak II required a improved cloak II to build. i don't remeber the exact figures, but nearly 1/2 to 3/4 of all improved cloak II's were used to build covert ops cloaks. on top of that the prototype cloak used to produce improved cloak II's were only gotten from bpo's that were received from the lottery like t2 goods. so this created a succession of 3 effective restricted bpo goods used in a chain to build mods further down the chain prototype cloaks --> improved cloak II --> covert ops cloaks this caused a huge spike in the price of the products, covert ops cloaks mostly, but all the other mods were affected. ccp changed this months ago and first the prototype cloaks dropped to a reasonable price then the improved cloaks dropped in price and finally the covert ops cloaks dropped in price.
if the did not have invention it would cause the t2 bpo's to be used to make t3 good and the same nasty chain of huge price jumps to make t3 cost as much as faction gear.
invention is there to lower the cost of way to expnsive t2 goods to reasonable levels and provide a big enough supply of t2 so t3 can be made at halfway reasonable prices.
in a few months profits on invented t2 will be not much higher than t1 goods and people will be complaining about not being able to make huge profits by inventing even though invention is the reason huge profits are no longer possible.
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Maverick McDougel
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.05.09 08:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: maarud
Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs through all of this,, i want to know what the T3 stats would be like,,, some T2 stuff is already quite chunky,, i mean, especially with ships, whats better than something with 0/80/70/60 base resists?
T3 is all about heat so a T3 ship will be able to dissipate more heat to allow your modules to run over the limit for longer before taking damage.
Actually, T3 is all about modding your weapons afaik, perhaps ships with more rig slots etc.
yep there is a t3 425mm railgun in the database and has been for a while. it allows you to add weapons modifications and the base stats are just a sliver better than t2. it also has a 250 HP bonus to shields, but i am not sure if ccp is gona keep that. they would be sweet on a rokh. a full set of then would be like having a build in large shield extender II.
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Virtuozzo
IVC Consortium INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.05.09 12:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Maverick McDougel yep there is a t3 425mm railgun in the database and has been for a while. .... it also has a 250 HP bonus to shields, but i am not sure if ccp is gona keep that. they would be sweet on a rokh. a full set of then would be like having a build in large shield extender II.
One of the CCP holy grails is prolonging combat ...
Virtuozzo
RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" |
Dyeadmheet
Caldari Khanid Aerospace Group
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Posted - 2007.05.09 15:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Maverick McDougel yep there is a t3 425mm railgun in the database and has been for a while.
There's all kinds of crazy stuff in the database (and has been for a while.) Jovian battleships, tools for reverse engineering jovian technology, etc.
Just because something is in the database doesn't mean squat except that devs were playing with some idea at some point in the past.
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