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Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 13:51:00 - [1] Firstly, I am not sure where all this ROE stuff is coming from but CVA and UK never had any ROE engagement other than a general 'understanding' that we would do the dirty work ourselves. Despite what Butterdog alleges (and we all know his forum accuracy) the CVA did not get 'outsiders' involved. The attack on QR was carried out by a collection of pro-Amarr corporations and alliances. The only one that the Minmatar's had any quibble about was 's3verance' - presumably because they hadn't seen them before - however, the CVA and s3verance had been working together for quite a while to protect a low-sec area of Amarr space from pirates. It has consistently been Ushra'khan who dragged 'outsiders' into this conflict which dates back to when certain UK pilots claimed that anyone living peacefully in CVA space was fair game - thus driving many of the non-'rp' neutrals living in Providence into the CVA fold i.e. Huzzah/NOS etc. We also had a more recent example when we (CVA) were threatened with anhiliation by The Enslaver of LV when we 'dared' to attack a UK system while they went off to attack IAC with their ISS friends. Consistently the CVA has kept 'outsiders' out of the fight and continue to do so. Several of the alliances now working with UK actually proposed working with the CVA to destroy them (UK). We turned them down! We have also turned down proposals from both Goonswarm and IAC to end the Minmatar presence in 9UY. I can understand why Ushra'khan have called in the current motley crew to defend them. The fact is that CVA and our Amarrian allies WILL take 9UY unless the Minmatar's get outside help. Yes the general RP 'see-saw' is heavily weighted to the Amarr side at present. The CVA and our Amarrian friends have retained their old hands, we have grown steadily larger and more proficient, whilst UK has to some extent stagnated - the defection of many of their best pilots to BoB didn't help either. As a result the CVA and our friends DO NOT NEED to bring in outsiders when we can complete the destruction of the Minmatar foothold in Providence (a long term CVA goal) OURSELVES. Nevertheless, I do not mind that the UK has called in 'outsiders' as in my mind many of the 'outsiders' really aren't 'outsiders' at all. Many have been involved in the Providence story for a long time (with the exception of some of the former 'D2' help they are getting in the form of EVOKE and Einherjar Rising). The fact that many of the Minmatar's new 'friends' are old enemies of the CVA is quite appropriate and RPish. Littlest Hobos - former ISS PvPers - have a grudge against CVA dating back to when we stopped ISS building an Outpost in our space Outbreak - another old enemy CVA has butted heads with many times The Establishment - has clashed with CVA on many occasions over the years TSDS (who have apparently now put in an appearance) - have been soundly thrashed by CVA on at least three occasions. These organisations all have a history with CVA and are in fact part of the 'Providence' story so I see no reason at all why Ushra'khan shouldn't form an unholy alliance against us. What I will however point out is that Ushra'khan can never again claim to be an 'anti-pirate' alliance with bedfellows like those... The fact is that UK on its own no longer has the capacity to defend 9UY against CVA and friends and we have ALWAYS has a STATED goal to make Providence Amarrian (AND THEY KNEW THAT WHEN THEY MOVED HERE) I am sorry if it feels like we are kicking over the sandcastles but the fact is that this is a REAL war and has been a real war for three years. We don't want to kill Ushra'khan but that is not our choice. Will losing 9UY kill them or drive them on a different evolutionary path? Oracle came and went, the People's Front of Minmatar came and went... Will UK go? Who knows! All I know is that the CVA will always have plenty of enemies because we fight for Amarr and Empire! ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:09:00 - [2] Thanks for the clarity on that one - I am sure TSDS will always want to join in on a good CVA bashing We have left a lot of enemies in our holy wake ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:16:00 - [3] Originally by: Mynas Atoch Originally by: Hardin Littlest Hobos - renegade ISS Navy officers and reservists - have a grudge against CVA dating back to when we stopped ISS building an Outpost in our space Fixed it for you. ISS would never have sanctioned this sort of intervention, unless it was to defend an investment in 9UY, or supress piracy. The disagreement and brief war with CVA over the siting of the ISS Consido outpost was 'just business'. It may have been just business but it did have the effect of making some vocal ISSN elements dislike CVA (aka Butter and chums) leading to other subsequent fun run ins - i.e. when Butter went pirate in Sukanen + ISSN and UK have helped each other in the past - so in effect their involvement fist quite well with the creation of an anti-CVA coalition. It is all RP ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:17:00 - [4] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Hardin What I will however point out is that Ushra'khan can never again claim to be an 'anti-pirate' alliance with bedfellows like those... Stones in glass houses Hardin. CVA has allies who shoot neutrals, U'K have allies who shoot neutrals. Claiming your enemy is "pirate" because it has friends who practise NBSI is the height of hypocrisy for you guys. Oh shut up... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:26:00 - [5] No just fed up with SF sniping - especially when it's illinformed sniping - I just can't be arsed to derail this thread to start another discussion with you about it... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 14:42:00 - [6] Edited by: Hardin on 08/05/2007 14:39:46 Originally by: Kovid Edited by: Kovid on 08/05/2007 14:31:31 Edited by: Kovid on 08/05/2007 14:29:48 Originally by: mamolian Originally by: Grimster Question. Now that the RP cat is essentially out of the bag, with both the CVA and UK sides requesting "outside" assistance, can we assume that both these alliances are now fair game as 0.0 entities? I know that others have already stated that this should be the case, but there are always a hard-core that state RP should be left to RP. Just interested. Personally I hope the 2 alliances can return to their ROE agreements and stop bringing in outside help.. unless a force other than CVA/UK threatens to take their space.. Its something Ive not seen in any other game, and to destroy it in eve.. would be a major blow not only to providence.. but to the RP community in eve.. Would be a terrible shame in my opinion.. Maelstrom has never been in much of a position to help out UK after we had left the providence area.. And Im ashamed often by being unable to help with that first big 9uy siege.. I'll help UK out in what ever way I can, overtly.. If CVA continue with this foolishness.. BS. Everyone RPs. If you come upon a RPer in some other place prime for the picking are you going to not shoot them? Will the next person do so? Should they do the same for you if the roles were reversed? There are no special rules that apply to one group or another. And the devs who support everyone RPing wouldn't want to treat people differently either. You say it would ruin the core struggle. How do you know if that destabilized something else wouldn't happen elsewhere, with either the same people or another faction. The fact you are limiting RP groups to RP groups are ... are limiting. NonRp groups can provide epic stories to the the game fighting say an Amarr empire just as they do fighting each other. The stories of multi faction capsuleer orginaztions of grand proportions are their OWN grand empires with rich histories as well. They deserve as much respect towards the game as the smaller RP groups who create their own stories in smaller ways. Both you see in news reports. Both groups pay for the whole game. Why limit them to a subsection of people. And interacting with smaller groups becomes the same repeated cycle. They even suffer at times because the limited amounts. 0.0 is not for the meek. CVA has been the big dog in the region and got spanked by a resugance of their enemies to come back to the area. Until then they had the area to themselves because no one had the power to take them. .... No one non-RP. It's 0.0. It's null security. And it's not just 0.0 for RPers, but anyone. If they can't hold space as a group, they don't deserve it. The fun is in the whole game, not just a section. People paid for the whole game, not just the percentage of it (the RPers.) And this is an example of a good SF post Although I do disagree with the 'spanked' part. We lost a battle... not a war ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 15:02:00 - [7] Yes I mentioned that in my reply. Basically there are long term links between ISS and UK - so I for one have no issues with Littlest Hobos being involved as their heritage and history ties them to UK - the Considio affair is just one factor in the colourful history of Providence and I am sure had some small part to play in giving ISS a more UK friendly slant, which was then refinforced during The Establishment/Veto attack on 9UY and UK subsequent help in the war vs IAC... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 15:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Hardin No just fed up with SF sniping - especially when it's illinformed sniping - I just can't be arsed to derail this thread to start another discussion with you about it... Then accept I'm calling it like it is Hardin. You count IAC amongst your allies, IAC practise NBSI - NBSI = "piracy". Hence there is no sensible way you can make propaganda mileage over Ushra'khan for having parotty allies themselves. Call it "sniping" if you like, but maybe I'm a little tired seeing the CVA pretend to be holier-than-thou on the piracy issue while having very off-colour friends yourselves. Sauce for the goose Hardin. This statement clearly shows you have no understanding of how IAC operates and nor do you have any clear understanding of the IAC/CVA relationship. Suffice to say calling us 'allies' is grossly inaccurate - after all do you see CVA ships on the frontline of the war with BoB or indeed IAC ships helping us in 9UY? All you want to do is score bull** points as demonstrated above. The CVA has a long and proud history of anti-piracy action indeed we are acknowledged as one of the formost anti-pirate organisations in EVE. By all means continue trying to smear our name with clever rhetoric when our actions demonstrate the idiocy of your words on a daily basis... I will not bother to reply to any more or your posts on this subject as this thread has been derailed enough as it is... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR**
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 15:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine I don't see there is any call for personal insults in this discussion Hardin. If you thought that was a personal insult then you are more sensitive than I thought. As for the rest of your linguistic flatulence it is absolute crap and you know it Jasmine. If anyone is spinning here it is you. People can judge CVA on it's actions over three years and decide whether they want to believe us or a Star Fraction PR lackey. Anyway putting this thread back on topic a RP perspective: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=517457 ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 16:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Eddie Gordo I must make it clear, that ALL of the people listed as prior residents agreed to a NDRS policy in Ushra'khan Sov space. Which therefore gives them carte blanche to operate NBSI in the rest of Providence using 9UY as a safe base of operations As I said in my original post on the page before I have no issue with you calling in 'friends' to help you save your Outpost especially as 'most' do have a Providence history... However I do think you need to rename your 9UY station: TORTUGA - http://www.thepiratesrealm.com/Isle%20of%20Tortuga.html We look forward to cleaning out this den of 'evil' ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr NoQ Holding Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.05.08 16:53:00 - [11] Edited by: Hardin on 08/05/2007 16:49:17 Jasmine, what you have done is accuse the CVA of something which we wholeheartedely detest with little or no evidence purely it seems out of a desire to sully our name for SF's own arcane political ends. This is the reality of what the CVA does on a day to day basis: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=493423&page=1#30 The CVA has never supported or promoted piracy in any shape or form and never will. You are simply dragging this arguement out because you clearly believe the old adage that if you throw enough crap some of it will stick... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 00:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Everything I've said here is just to pour a little bucket of cold water on the self righteous propaganda Hardin likes to indulge in. How amusing! You will never admit when you are wrong will you? ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 01:36:00 - [13] No - you are the one making a fool of yourself. It is blantantly obvious that your allegations are incorrect and that has not just come from CVA but from various neutral observers. But by all means continue to slander us if you feel it will forward the Star Fraction cause... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 13:54:00 - [14] Edited by: Hardin on 10/05/2007 13:53:11 So we are persecuting you now simply because we point out that you are wrong? You may not accept that you are wrong - that's your perogative, but don't expect me to roll over when you decide to slander us to forward your (or SFs) own objectives. I think that you have a pathological need to 'demonise' your enemies for whatever reason and yet cannot accept any criticism in return - indeed you characterise all criticism as a personal attack upon yourself. So be it. The CVA has an established reputation based upon its in game actions and its INTEGRITY - not least the fact that the way we play and our objectives have been made blatantly clear from the start. Unlike most alliances we are not into subterfuge and dirty dealing - we are the ultimate *'Does what it says on the tin'* alliance... We kill terorists and we kill pirates - we always have and we always will. You may seek to tarnish our reputation for your own reasons but I think the majority here have enough wisdom can see through that simple ploy. ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 16:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine I can see this discussion is upsetting you Hardin Not in the slightest. In fact I am quite enjoying seeing you get so worked up over this Now on to your main arguement Originally by: Jasmine Constantine You condemn the practise of NBSI in allies of your enemies while turning a blind eye to this practise in YOUR allies. This is hypocrisy - this is single objection I have made to your rhetoric on the subject. This has already been addressed by many others in this thread. However, at the risk of being boring I will reiterate a couple of the key points: 1. We disapprove of the use of NBSI by everyone - friendly or not. That includes IAC. If you dig around on these forums you will even find some posts by me congratulating IAC when they resumed NRDS after one of their previous NBSI periods and expressing a desire that they stuck to it. Not only that but we have worked with other neighbours such as Huzzah in the past and NOS more recently to ensure that they also adopt NRDS strategies across the bulk of their territories in Providence - and as a result the region has been one of the few areas in EVE where neutrals could pretty much venture where they liked provided they respected our no-piracy rules. 2. At the same time IAC and every other alliance in this game is sovereign in their territory. While we may disapprove of their system it is not within our power to make them change - all we can do is continue to advocate the benefits of NRDS and demonstrate by example of how it can actually be made to work. Again, if you can be bothered to do some research you will find a number of posts by me outlining the benefits of NRDS and highlighting some of the challenges and rewards in instituting such a system. 3. You also insist on lumping us together with IAC. Yes the two alliances are neighbours and yes we have friendly relations and yes we have worked together for mutual defence in the past, but the claim that we have some kind of formal alliance and therefore some responsibility for IAC's in-space policy is completely ridiculous. IAC know we don't like NBSI which is why they do not operate NBSI in our area. Yes there have been incidents - there always are - indeed if you read some of my previous posts on NRDS you will see that I acknowledge that accidents will happen, however as far as I am aware IAC generally pay compensation where an honest mistake has been made and I know CVA certainly does. This is in stark contrast to the vast bulk of 0.0 alliances. 4) You say that we only criticise NBSI in our enemies - as I have pointed out that is not true and have worked with all parties (friendly or not) with an interest in Providence to get them to adopt and NRDS policies. However, most normal people would probably understand those kind of discussions are not going to be publicly broadcast on these forums. Yes we will criticise our enemies publicly for adopting NBSI policies in Providence - they are after all our enemies and opent to criticism, but what is the point of alienating friends with some public outing when a quiet word in the ear works much more effectively. I see absolutely ZERO hypocrisy there. All I see is your unwillingness to accept a reality that does not suit your objectives and a desperate attempt to slander our reputation for your own ends. ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 16:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Kharass Al'Quam Thank god for the Minnies. At least they uphold the tradition of murder death to the dog race. While the Gallente and Amarrian sit in Ivory towers beeing penpals. Oh rest assured that us Amarrian do our fair share of shooting. Why else would the brave Minmatar terrorists called in the nefarious foreign legion to save their arses? Not that I am complaining as I, like the whole CVA and our loyalist friends, are enjoying the new challenge However, it is amusing to waste working hours (when I cannot be logged in) exchanging missives with the misguided Gallente wench... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 17:29:00 - [17] Edited by: Hardin on 10/05/2007 17:36:40 I knew I shouldn't have bothered responding I (as have others) have clearly addressed your allegations and you are deliberately ignoring the facts and changing the goalposts. Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Thats irrelevant. The question here (and I'll keep dragging you back to it) is that you cannot justifiably condemn the Ushra'khan for benefiting from NBSI-class "pirate" allies Yes we can because none of our friends have an NBSI policy in Providence and UK's do (outside UK sov systems). Neutrals in Providence have nothing to fear from CVA's friends but they do have to worry about Outbreak / Establishment / Evoke et al - as has been proved over the last week. Quite simply these organisations are shooting civilians in Providence and IAC are not. What could be more understandable? I think calling them 'pirates' is perfectly justified. (Saying that they (Establishment/ENH/Bum/Evoke etc) are actually good foes and great to fight. I am certainly sure they are not taking great offense at being labelled 'ebil pirates' in the same way that UK isn't really upset about being called 'terrorists'. They probably understand it in the spirit that it is meant - something which you quite clearly don't! Who knows they may even enjoy it The only reason you keep 'dragging' this topic up is because you have a political axe to grind against CVA and seem to be taking this way to seriously. I am afraid I am no longer going to bother playing along with you especially when it is clear that you will endlessly repeat the SAME arguements over and over again. I have made the necessary points that needed to be made. People can make up their own minds now. They can chose who they want to believe, either CVA or an individual in a corporation which prides itself on its forum warfare capabilities. I look forward to your usual witty response. ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 18:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Eddie Gordo To call us pirates over and over on OOC channels is a slap in the face. To not recognise us as a regional power is a slap in the face. Your basicly saying that our history counts for nothing. our roleplay counts for nothing and you are lumping us in with commen low sec gankers. Please point out to me where in this entire thread I have called you pirates OOC? My discussion here has been focused on Jasmine's allegations of hypocrisy... I certainly am not criticising your roleplay or even your choice of allies - as I said in a private convo with you just the other day I think it has added spice to the whole situation. ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.10 19:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Eddie Gordo Maybe I got confused with a thread on eve-chatsubo or whatever that site is. If you could clarify that you dont consider us pirates OOC i'll be happy answer me first, I have a guest arriving soon and I dont want to look like a geek infront of female company! Don't worry I am not going to answer Jasmine again On to your question I don't consider you (UK) OOC pirates. Happy now my old Minnie foe? I will however reiterate the point (only because Jasmine seems completely fixated upon it) that you no longer have credibility as an anti-pirate force (which you did used to claim) after giving ENH/Outbreak/Establishment a foothold in Providence from which they can prey on the local populace. ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR
Hardin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.11 08:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Solusar As for the idea that we had made plans to attack 9UY before the attacks on QBL, that is quite ludicrous. We had ideas about long term goals, but nothing was definate on "what to do next" and at that stage QR was still an ISS station so its safe to say we wernt planning on taking it at that point :p I just want to reiterate what Sol said here. Yes we had started discussing and planning an op to take a Minnie Outpost - but that discussion was kind of drifting along relatively aimlessly. When the QBL thing happened it gave us our first 'real' taste of POS warfare and we realised that we did actually have the ability to take your (UK's) Outposts - which up until that point we had been umming and ahhhing about. It was then that serious planning started to be initiated... ------------------------------ CVA - Kicking Arse For The Empire - http://eve-files.com/dl/83607 AMARR VICTOR

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