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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:43:57
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:40:43
Office 2007 FTL
I have been in mmorpg games for a long time and I have played pvp games and non pvp games. I have a resume far too long and spend far too much time playing games. Here is my analysis of this game:
There is an emerging elite class of players rising out of Eve Online leaving the average joes in the dust. Some players are benefiting from the many and at their expense. The competitive Eve player LOVES this as it rewards the strong and crushes the weak. The problem is its the average joes that are paying the electric bills on the Ramsan too.
Normally MMORPG developers thwart the eating of their young by granting them consensual / non consensual pvp systems and areas. Eve empire space (as it was conveyed to me) was supposed to be that area. I thought that until I was "stupid enough" to transport my hangar through hi sec space and lost 2 years of my game life about 4 months ago so someone else could make use of a crappy game feature and get 15 minutes of fun.
It won't take long for this thread to get flamed into oblivion because IÆve seen it before but last I checked all subscribing players get to have a say on these forums whether they pvp or not and I got about 36 hours left.
-Being a person who likes PvP or a person who likes to gank defenseless players may make you think your epeen is bigger, but the reality of it is this game could still be fun if there were limited opportunities for others to enjoy the game without being someoneÆs cannon fodder. There is no real world definition out there that says you're a better person or player because you choose to pvp....get that out of your head. Also please understand IÆm not asking for WoW here. There has to be a medium.
Fact:
As older characters get older and make more money and get better ships the market demands and the game content demands inflate with it. The new content expansions have done what content expansions do to all games: they trivialize the content that comes before it. This is bad for new characters in Eve because its boring to do mundane things to get to the good stuff. YouÆre not building expansion content with the newer players in mind û you always stack new stuff on top which benefits mainly people who have been through the older stuff. The effect is starting to take hold and the disparity is evident.
Fact:
If you choose to NOT pvp you only give up your ability to fight back in this game. Its perfectly reasonable and acceptable for the community and the developers to see freighters and industrial ships with no defense / weaponry blow up in high sec space due to broken game mechanics. Bring a friend eh?
How does it help immersion and RP and all that to sit at a gate and 1 shot defenseless ships? Why would it be so terrible to have areas where competitive or even preying pvp is possible and other areas where its not? WTF is empire for? Remove Concord then and be done with it or stop this stupid 1 shot killing. Even UO had guards FFs.
The Darwinism aspects of this game can be great and I thought they were but if you take it too far you start cutting into my game time which is downtime after a hard days work. I want to love this game but there is so much BS I donÆt know. I donÆt see how its too much to ask that the risk (or time) vs reward be balanced 50/50 and not in the favor of the halfwit(s) sitting at the gate waiting for defenseless ships to roll through?
If miners and industrialists are the backbone for the supply and demand paradigm in Eve online then they should be allowed a bit more exclusivity in that department. As it stands now you can play icon wars mining ore or you can go run complexes and forego the need for industrists kick them in the balls on mineral prices.
Maybe its time to just be a bit more honest about who this game is for and stop marketing it as a game available to pvp ær and crafter alike.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:50:00 -
[2]
re: formatting . Sorry I proof my comments in Office before posting. Normally this does me justice but I just flipped to office 2007- its the Vanguard Saga of Heros of Office word processing.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 18:53:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:51:24
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 18:50:22
respectfully - why are there so many people in NPC corps?
What do I want? A game that recognizes that there are places for pvp and places for ganking. A game that recognizes there is value balancing risk vs reward and respects the time people spend playing the game.
If there is no place then take out concord. Stop saying its a game feature.
Why is my time less valuable then someone sitting at a gate waiting to take advantage of crappy mechanics?
Why is it a new region comes in so the miners don't gain value from their time spent mining.
Why is pvp "better" than industry and why is it always considered industry 2nd in class?
ps. very sorry for my crappy formatting
/with respect intended.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 20:44:00 -
[4]
Seems I stirred up a storm. One of the things I do like about this game is amongst the not so brilliant posts there are so many people with great insight and vision ... I respect that. Eve has a lot of smart people playing.
Let me clarify my points.
I'm not looking for an easy care free game.....I have an industrial character and a PvP character.
what I am saying is Risk vs reward in this game is fubar when people simply need to 1 shot a industrial ship flying through.
I guess what I'm saying is the non consensual pvp aspect is messed up. imho (and its just that).
Thanks for the point of views thus far.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 20:46:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Laboratus
First of all to the op.
I'm sorry to hear you lost all your stuff. I'm quite lucky in that regard, I lost most my stuff on the first month I played, so I learned fast and hard not to keep all my eggs in one basket. That and one and a half year in 0.0 has gotten me quite careful with my stuff. I've kinda found that if I just stab up and put an mwd on my hauler with perhaps a few shield extenders, there is nothing in high, or low sec that can cause any serious harm. Or at least you need too many ships to instapop me for there be any kind of sense in it...
ps im not sour about loosing my stuff lol it was 5 months ago and a new born baby ago....just adds to the point.
There are two types of pvp in eve - 1 that you can fight back and 1 you cant.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 20:53:00 -
[6]
indeed - what is the point of the war system in empire?
what is the point of concord?
There is room for everyone I think and the only ones to suffer would be the gankers.....need I deduce conclusions?
How does giving a itteron a bit more armor so it lives through a folly (allowing concord show up) mess up the hard core privateer's plans? or the battle ready pvp'r?
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 21:09:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 21:10:38
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Serenthris Landry
Choice makes this game it does not break it. You chose to fit cargo expanders instead of a tank no doubt, sacrificing security for space. You chose to try and travel solo instead of taking an escort, again sacrificing security for speed. You chose to take the route that perhaps took you through a lo-sec system perhaps.
I agree that EVE's method of freeform gameplay is a large part of what makes it stand above other MMOs.
But while Wrangler said game mechanics are not broken they are definitely bent.
- A hauler is supposed to fit expanders...that is its purpose in life. Fitting a tank to a hauler only marginally protects it. A suicide gank will have to work a bit harder to get you but not much. Most times you will be dead before your rep makes a 2nd cycle.
- Bringing an escort is likewise almost useless. There is little they can do to protect you short of having a large escort of logistics ships perma repping you wherever you go.
- If you go low sec then absolutely you are facing an increased risk and should prepare accordingly. That is the definition of low sec. So why should hi sec be as dangerous?
Wrangler stating that the gankers face risk by getting CONCORDED and taking a sec hit misses the reality. That is of course true enough but for the ganker it is a quite simple calculation. They fully realize what will happen and the game makes it profitable for them to "break the law" (not CCP law but in-game, roleplaying laws).
I agree CCP should not make hi sec perfectly safe and allow suicide ganks and such to continue. But they should balance the risk/reward side a bit. Insurance should not be paid out to those who get CONCORDED. Better escort mechanisms should also exist. The suicide ganker could still do their thing but the bar has been raised on what is or is not profitable for them and better escort mechanics would allow those players willing/able to get a guard to be worthwhile. If such mechanics are too difficult to implement then give soft targets (haulers mostly) better ability to survive (more HP, better resists, whatever) to effectively achieve the same results.
I know this is not other games but in other games this would have been considered and exploit of intended game mechanics year ago.
The solution is simple really, its just my opinion but I dont see the value in allowing a small number of gankers free license to gank defenseless ships in empire - it doesnt truly add value to anyone's gaming experience when you stop and think about it.
Now if I had said made 0.0 easier or 0.4 < easier then yell yeah flame away. But you dont walk into a bank, shoot the banker, rob the banker, stash the goods then put your hands up and say "k now cuff me". We just disagree on what the bank is in the analogy i guess...and thats fine i guess.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 23:01:00 -
[8]
The problem is the agressors get to fire first. Whether this is valid or not is a point of contention. In this reasoning Concord doesn't truly make it safer, they make it less safe for certain ship types.
Get a hauler with a tank and they just get more battleships or whatever......the battle always sways in the agressors favor without recourse outside the accepted parameters going into it.
how is that risk vs reward? Its the same result each time.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.08 23:09:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Rekindle on 08/05/2007 23:05:39
Originally by: Scouty VonScoutesnstein
yea, all I saw was "Office 2007 FTL" realized you were a complete idiot, and never had to read the rest.
Thanks for your useful and helpful input, great example of constructive feed back.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.09 02:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Miz Cenuij
Stinking empire filth.
Stop by where October Snow live and ill give you a 1 shot death you wont forget ina hurry.
Carebear scum like you make me wtf rage.
he helps pay the RamSan bills too !
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.09 11:28:00 -
[11]
How quick some simple minds are to come to conclusions.
I don't give a rats ass about that stuff I lost a long time ago. I didn't pass through the fire that was UO to listen to mindless banter about my carebear goodes. Can I say that again? Do I need to get out chalk and crayons to explain this?
Most of the responses in this thread have been very constructive and have provided insight on both sides of this point of view. Unlike some, I'm capable of being the devil's advocate and hearing the opinions on all sides.
Yes I've been playing two years....so what? My items are not at issue here, nor is my ship set up. This is not "im sad cos I losst my l33t stuff".
My OP and subsequent feedback explains my point and based on other's comments its obviously something that many people agree with to some extent or another. If you can't be bothered to read the point of view and comment on the thread, not the person, then go chew glass.
For those that provide insight into the position that I'm currently --not-- taking : thank you.
At the end of the day the situation boils down in a difference between points of view. Some people think its risky and adds to the mystique of the game to allow empire ganking to occur (and if you read my OP this wasn't the only component to my assessment that were made) some think its an exploit of game mechanics.
Eve is a cold harsh world statement is a cop out statement.
/respectfully
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.09 14:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Stella Stardust
Originally by: Drizit
Edited by: Drizit on 09/05/2007 12:50:42
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world. High sec is relatively safe but you can still be killed there. The person attacking you will get his ship blown up and his security rating lowered, so he will still pay. Maybe the game mechanics isn't what you'd like to see, but it's certainly not broken.
If it's not broken, then why can't my corpmate/gangmate aid me by shooting back at the suicide gankers without getting ganked by Concord himself? Even in lowsec, you have the option to defend your cargo shipment, in highsec, you are not allowed to. Concord should still intervene but a few gangmates should be able to make sure that the job is done without losing the shipment. Someone who goes it alone is in danger of losing their shipment but there should be an alternative for team players.
I think the problem with EVE is that it is built to be a cold harsh world only to the majority of the people, not the griefers. There is no punishment whatsoever for being a griefer. Most games go the route of letting game mechanics deal with griefers, other (with open pvp) give the control to other players. EVE does neither. It hides this by having the illusion of safe areas, and illusion of player control.
There is also a lot of mistaken identity on these boards it seems of PvPers and griefers. If EVE was a true open PvP world, it might actually be better off than this half baked version. Because IMO there are more fair minded PvPers than there are griefers.
Stella, I think you pretty well reiterated quite nicely part of the point I'm trying to make.
People can have risk and rewards and pvp without grief tactics adding to the "challenge". No one is asking for a risk free experience but there is a fine line between someone accepting risk and someone having fun by being an ass.
Lots of people think i'm asking for a carefree world which i'm not. Lots of people think i'm carebear and I'm n....well maybe a little ....but the point is the world can still be harsh without cheap ass tactics that constitute a "i win" button on behalf of the agressor.
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Rekindle
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Posted - 2007.05.14 12:18:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rekindle on 14/05/2007 12:20:11
Its been my experience that many people take this game very seriously. Honestly, a lot of people don't sound like they're to laugh or relax, and that is perfectly fine. If one wants to play the game and be an uptight ***** to everyone they encounter then great.
But somewhere in the mix of VOIP channels, in the alliance chats and throughout the universe average human beings play the game too.
The voice of the core gamer (shoot me people who have been wathcing Vanguard) gets drowned out by this hardcore element though.
The point of this thread is not to ask for a watering down of the game. The point of this thread is not to cry over spilled milk from 4 months ago. The point of this thread was to articulate an imbalance in the game. After discussion it became more clear (to me) what exactly the imbalance is.
Eve is a cold harsh universe but its an uneven distribution. I think its one thing to endure serious massochistic types when playing a recreational video game, that just comes with the t-shirt. Its one thing to endure lag and the challenges.
However, one thing CCP needs to realize to properly mature as a MMORPG developer is they need to be even handed in their provision of this service and thats all I'm suggesting. Now if you're one of the serious players you may get concerned about this but I promise game balance won't turn the game into WoW.
However, I think there is an interface between real world and eve-land and expecting a certain base level of fairness in mechanics is not unreasonable.
This game favors the Grief_ER, the game favors its veteran players and veteran organizations and provides an even dispertion of the cold harsh universe mantra with the level of "challenge" getting strong as you go down.
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