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We need reasons to fight

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Wyke DeRainger	Posted - 2004.01.04 02:39:00 - [1] Hi Guys. I started playing Eve back in April, when the game first went live. Back then I was very much in what would be called the 'carebear' gang. But come the summer, after some pressure from friends I dropped Eve and went to play Planetside. For those who don't know, it's a 100% PvP 1st person shooter with battle that often have 100's of players a side fighting. It was there that I discovered the joys of PvP play. Take it from me. It doesn't matter how many NPC pirates you have killed, there is nothing to match the satisfaction of taking down another human player in a fight. Unfortunatly for me. I also discovered that 1st person shooters induce motion sickness in me, so I can only play such games for a short while, thus I returned to Eve. It was when I came back that I realised, in my oppinion, that there is one fundimental flaw in Eve, and that is. There is not enough reasons for players to want to fight. The original idea was that PvP would come about through Corp Wars and pirating. On the whole Corp Wars seem to be limited to the occasional 'bushfire war' as most corperations soon realise that war simply is not good for business. That leaves pirates, who unfortunatly tend to upset everybody else simply by doing what pirates are supposed to do. Rip everybody else off. The second problem, as I see it. Is that Eve is trying to be two very different games. There is Eve, the space trading/mining/ industry game, then there's Eve the space combat game, and it's that division, that causes the most confict between players as to what is good, and what is bad. The Devs bring in a patch that favours the non-PvP section and the PvP section jumps up in arms against it. You bring in a patch that favours the PvP section and the non-PvP section jumps up in arms against it. So is Eve a lost cause. No, far from it. Again. I believe that the game has all the ingredients there already. Now me, if I was in charge of developing Eve, I'd be thinking of the following. 1. Make relations between the 4 different races more tense. They don't need to be at war, but by using a cold war scenario players would then have a basic powerbase to both attack and defend. For example. Amarr pilots can mine and travel about Amarr space freely, anybody else is treated with at the least suspicion, because they know that other race PvP players can jump into Amarr space and will only take a Sec hit against the Amarr Empire if they start attacking Amarr ships. Of course you leave all the current systems in place, the gate guns, NPC military/Police ships, in the higher level systems to put some limits on incursions. But by doing something like that, you now have a structure for PvP play as players initiate raiding parties and others run interdiction missions to stop them. Yes it will still make the non-PvP players life more difficult, but so long as they stay in their own space there will be none of the gate camping problems. If set right a raiding party will be just that. A quick dash into enemy space, hit a few targets then a fast run home into 'safe' space. 2. Do away with the concept of none empire space. It's a cumbersome concept that I feel doen't realy work. What you do have, is space that all nations may lay clame to but which they don't have the militery might to enforce. Thus another role for players is ensuring that those areas on the outskirts of a races space are kept open for only their fellow race members. Obviously, players from 3 other races will be wanting to do the same. This will have the added bonus of perhaps giving some structure to the big companies, where you get the Eve version of the Dutch East Company protecting their patch as they feed the resources they glean back into their races space. Those are just two ideas that are floating about in my head. I'm sure that most players have their own views on this too. But what ever, for PvP to exist along side non-PvP there needs to be a better game structure. If you want players fighting, they need a reason to fight, they need places to fight, and they need rewards for winning fights. The elements are already in the game, they just need using.
Riddari	Posted - 2004.01.04 03:02:00 - [2] It is way too late to start using races. Most of the corps are multi-racial and people have bonded with each other. Only a handful of corporations are single-race ¼©¼ a history
Zarquon Beeblebrox	Posted - 2004.01.04 03:14:00 - [3] I like the ide verry good. -- Lady Beeblebrox Teddybears movies
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2004.01.04 03:16:00 - [4] Quote: It is way too late to start using races. Most of the corps are multi-racial and people have bonded with each other. Only a handful of corporations are single-race So? _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Slam	Posted - 2004.01.04 03:20:00 - [5] Quote: The original idea was that PvP would come about through Corp Wars and pirating. On the whole Corp Wars seem to be limited to the occasional 'bushfire war' as most corperations soon realise that war simply is not good for business. This really isnt true. Your observations are heavily influenced on staying in empire space for to long (I suspect). Before Castor there was a prolionged war in the southern regions. As to something to fight for? I agree to some extend. Uptil now the only thing worth fighting for was the frontier regions. That is why they have been claimed by regional alliances. But yeah I look forward to the day where the conflict aspect will be "stepped up". I'm pretty sure that day is coming but it will be centered around corp warfare and I'm not sure you are gonna like it. Bottom line will be that the stronger pvp corps will take over even more of Eve. I'm sure I want that, but do you?
Wyke DeRainger	Posted - 2004.01.04 03:29:00 - [6] As I said, it's only a few thoughts. But then again. Just because you are of a certain race. You don't have to fight for that race. My character is Amarr, but he's worked in Galleante systems for just about all his life. He actually has a better sec standing with the Galleante Federation then with the Amarr Empire. If the situation I suggested did come about my guy would jump into his Trisan and keep doing his stuff in Galleante space. Hmmm, But come to think of it. If he jumps into his Executioner, there may be some good money to be made in smuggling some of those cute galleante girls into Amarr space to be put to work as slaves in the pleasure houses of Amarr Prime<grins>. Now there's an idea, we'd need a whole new range of smuggling skills Quote: It is way too late to start using races. Most of the corps are multi-racial and people have bonded with each other. Only a handful of corporations are single-race
Skaz	Posted - 2004.01.04 03:33:00 - [7] Edited by: Skaz on 04/01/2004 03:34:20 Edited by: Skaz on 04/01/2004 03:33:39 I believe they're going to address this with the Shiva build (player owned structures) or after it (controlable territories), the major flaw to this solution is that Shiva will come "God knows when, possibly year 2004" Soon(TM) So basically we're...erm....f***d? "No, I'm not alt.....even if I have been in Pator Tech School for 2 years..."*
KIAInkZ	Posted - 2004.01.04 03:49:00 - [8] declare war on any corp that upsets you, job done --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.01.04 03:53:00 - [9] Quote: declare war on any corp that upsets you, job done Why? That's the question he's asking InkZ. Why fight? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
KIAInkZ	Posted - 2004.01.04 04:05:00 - [10] because it's fun. We've declared war on EPA because they are pirates and prey on our allies. We like to think of ourselves as the good guys. There is soooo much happening in lonetrek it's unreal. The NVA and Biomass war pretty much died when caster messed up 0.0, so us and other corps have declared official war on the pirates, and now fight them in empire space. It depends what the aim of the game is for you. If the aim is to make money, then there is no point. If your aim is to make a name for yourselves (the sole driving motive of KIA) then go hurt the bad guys. This game has so much content it's unreal. Empire space is like 0.0 these days. If you're missing the content, go out and find it, it is there. --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.01.04 04:15:00 - [11] Edited by: Jash Illian on 04/01/2004 04:41:19 Quote: because it's fun. We've declared war on EPA because they are pirates and prey on our allies. We like to think of ourselves as the good guys. There is soooo much happening in lonetrek it's unreal. The NVA and Biomass war pretty much died when caster messed up 0.0, so us and other corps have declared official war on the pirates, and now fight them in empire space. It depends what the aim of the game is for you. If the aim is to make money, then there is no point. If your aim is to make a name for yourselves (the sole driving motive of KIA) then go hurt the bad guys. This game has so much content it's unreal. Empire space is like 0.0 these days. If you're missing the content, go out and find it, it is there. Some people need more reason to fight than just for the sake of fighting, InkZ. When a pirate attacks you, you're provided a reason to fight: self-preservation. If the game was working properly, a corp would have resources as a reason to fight another corp. If territory could be properly contested people would have a reason to fight. But pirates are getting nerfed into oblivion, the massive amount of space/underpopulation makes cooperation/avoidance easier and territory control != SoonÖ. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Lola	Posted - 2004.01.04 04:38:00 - [12] Quote: Edited by: Skaz on 04/01/2004 03:34:20 I believe they're going to address this with the Shiva build (player owned structures) or after it (controlable territories), the major flaw to this solution is that Shiva will come "God knows when, possibly year 2004" Soon(TM) So basically we're...erm....f****d? Did you mean year 2005? Because it's already 2004. ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
Hematic	Posted - 2004.01.04 05:15:00 - [13] Nice ideas Wyke. I think the biggest advantage to your ideas you forgot to mention. This would go a long way to bring small corp and solo players into the frey. Anyway great suggestions.
Aturayd	Posted - 2004.01.04 05:23:00 - [14] From what ive seen the biggest incentives are "you exist, your in my space, and my ship is better than yours, therefore squish" "you threaten my well-being in my space and i dont know who you are squish" "you stole my veldspar... vengeance is mine...squish" I was hoping there would be a more visible line like corps and players taking sides over an event such as Gallente declares war on Caldari. ----------------------------------- about:blank
Brukhai Khan	Posted - 2004.01.04 05:30:00 - [15] you forgot the most important one: "squish" seriously, if you¦re bored PvP wise come try and camp HED for a while.
Mace Griffin	Posted - 2004.01.04 05:30:00 - [16] I roleplay my character so i HATE all amarrians for enslaving my people.Caldarians i dont mind.Ive also stayed in the startup corp in the hopes that the devs will make it empire against empire soon.Would be intersting to see some benifits beyond mining if an empire controls an enemies space or even a portion of it. Throws 2 isk at the forums.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.01.04 05:30:00 - [17] I think the best way CCP could spur PvP would be to make it MUCH MUCH easier to track people down. AS of now it is near impossible. Yes, some agents have tracking services but still bloody hard to actually tarck someone this way. With good tracking services available Corps could better see to waging economic warfare on opponents (go after miners/haulers) or just after them in general. Corps would have to make more of a point of sticking closer together to protect themselves. People could make a better go at tracking people who wronged them. Anyone who has been in EVE a month or more is likely to have a bone to pick with someone. Why this is not implemented well in-game I have no idea.
Aitrus	Posted - 2004.01.04 07:11:00 - [18] Quote: I roleplay my character so i HATE all amarrians for enslaving my people.Caldarians i dont mind.Ive also stayed in the startup corp in the hopes that the devs will make it empire against empire soon.Would be intersting to see some benifits beyond mining if an empire controls an enemies space or even a portion of it. Throws 2 isk at the forums. Umm, you look pretty Caldari to me, I thought we enslaved the Minmatar?
Ankh	Posted - 2004.01.04 11:57:00 - [19] Wyke, you hit the nail on the head with the trade vs pvp dilemma. EVE is like a food chain. Mining, building, trading, doing missions etc. brings essential stuff into the game (isk, minerals or items). Pirating and pvp combat comes higher up the chain, it is carnivorous in nature. Anyone can tell you that a food chain has fewer carnivores than herbivores. The only way CCP can encourage more PvP is to increase the supply rate of materials into the game, so it becomes less costly and time consuming to replace lost stuff. It is this that will determine the ratio of care-bear vs pvp in the game. I personally think the balance is fine at the moment. There's good pvp around, and you can make a good living as a care-bear. If you are unhappy with your lot, I suggest you are playing the wrong role: if you want to be more carnivorous, move to a corp thats higher up the food chain, or turn pirate.
SYCO	Posted - 2004.01.04 12:04:00 - [20] carebears....
Molly	Posted - 2004.01.04 12:14:00 - [21] Good post. EVE needs either a large scale conflict or a rollback to version 1.0. -- Kasha > Mastema, face the reality: All the juicy dots are gone. --
McWatt	Posted - 2004.01.04 12:27:00 - [22] Edited by: McWatt on 04/01/2004 12:28:19 it s ben said over and over again, i don t know why they don t listen. war between races would help (if we could influence it) better tracking would help being able to blockade would help slower extracted resources would help making damage/repair matter would help POS would help (if implemented in a different way of what is currently planned) sigh.

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