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Why is CCP trying to destroy Tactical Warfare?

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Goran StarRider	Posted - 2007.05.11 07:27:00 - [31] Edited by: Goran StarRider on 11/05/2007 07:23:57 These weekly "sky is falling" posts from you are getting pretty tiring. Who says CCP is unaware of the law of unintended consequences? That's not a reason to not implement changes to the game. They deal with the unintended consequences as they arise, they don't let the fear of them paralyze them from action. And stop acting like your predictions as to what these changes will bring are a foregone conclusion. You aren't the grand seer of EVE. I'm sure you will dismiss the following arguments because they don't coincide with what you've already convinced yourself of, but here goes: First, you are making gigantic assumptions about bombs with pretty much no information. You just assume that they will have the same affect on surrounding ships regardless of size. You have no basis for saying that besides the fact that your feeble little mind can't envision any type of AOE weapon other than a smartbomb. All they need to do is make the explosion velocity really low and the explosion radius really high and all small/medium ships will be fine as long they keep moving. This would make fleets of small ships even more effective because once they engaged BSs at close range the BSs would be damaging themselves more than their enemies with the bombs. Second, jump bridges require level 3 sovereignty, which will require 35 days of constant sovereignty. And, as anyone familiar with POS warfare can tell you (and no, killing one POS doesn't count), maintaining a POS with sovereignty (meaning a giant neon sign telling everyone you have a POS there) in a system outside of your main area of control is not an easy feat. It will be a gigantic target, especially since everyone will know it will be used for logistical purposes. Additionally, the jump bridges will be anchored outside the POS shields, so roving gangs will be able to strike and them and potentially take them out without having to destroy the POS. This will create more tactical warfare because there will be actual hit & run tactics that can be utilized against POSs instead of keeping POSs completely untouchable except by capital ships. Finally, if you really think CCP is too stupid to comprehend 50 BSs with bomb launchers then quit the f-ing game already and spare us from your constant whining, because apparently the devs are so mentally feeble they will probably die shortly from forgetting to breathe. Just because devs don't flock to your posts to tell you what a genius you are doesn't mean they don't read them. And just because they don't capitulate to your incessant whining and cancel features they've spent months developing and balancing doesn't mean they don't recognize the issues you raise and are simply too mentally feeble to come to the same conclusions.
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.11 07:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Goran StarRider First, you are making gigantic assumptions about bombs with pretty much no information. You just assume that they will have the same affect on surrounding ships regardless of size. You have no basis for saying that besides the fact that your feeble little mind can't envision any type of AOE weapon other than a smartbomb. All they need to do is make the explosion velocity really low and the explosion radius really high and all small/medium ships will be fine as long they keep moving. This would make fleets of small ships even more effective because once they engaged BSs at close range the BSs would be damaging themselves more than their enemies with the bombs. Oh yes we can, we have the Doomsday devices remember ? No AoE weapon currently in game has something like explosion radius/velocity. I think Rells CAN tell you what the properties on the bombs were and if they included anything like that. If not, there you have your answer. Obviously you DO implement a new item with all the things you think it should have, so if there's no radius/velocity, you lost. I do not think Rells is that stupid to post when he would think the draft he saw would be ok in the current state of the game. Truth is, he can't see all Devs intentions, but sometimes neither the Devs do. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Chewan Mesa coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.11 08:04:00 - [33] Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 11/05/2007 08:02:21 Once the POS-warfare has been redesigned, I believe jump bridges are actually going to add to tactical warfare in EVE. If they do not require constellation sov to be used, you will have a row of POSs claiming sov in otherwise prolly useless systems, which will be easy enough to figure out using scouts/spies/intel. Now, having them placed outside the shields, it means that you dont have to catch a load of freighters running into an alliances space with cargo, but that you can prepare assaults on maybe 4 different POSs to take out their jump bridge. Add to that the fact that it still means freighters have to move into 0.0 first, to the first jump bridge. Should it use constellation sov though, it limits its use even further. I expect it to use quite a bunch of fuel as well, so there wont be any 10-man gangs using their jump-portal to run from a roaming gang of hostiles.
Khajit Smitty Minmatar MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2007.05.11 08:30:00 - [34] Really rells, you are an idiot! Do you even understand the design/brainstorming sessions around a feature? Do you honestly think a feature is implemented because "its cool" without analysing it, discussing it, drawing up impact plans etc on present features. Your little rant screams child, i suggest you get to understand game development and more about a working environment before posting the dribble you did. The information at the moment is so limited, we dont know how it all works/ties together so honestly one cannot made statements on how it will impact the game.
Ares Lightfeather	Posted - 2007.05.11 09:41:00 - [35] Just as a side note : a simple solution to your problem would be to make the bomb destroyable while in flight. If targetting the bomb in flight is made easy by smaller ships (like frigates) and difficult by strongest one, it would mean more strategic fleet warfare. As in other games, to destroy a capital ship with an escort, you send your capital ship with an escort. And whichever battle is lost (either the "escort-level" fight or the "capital-level" fight) means that the entire battle is lost. Whining is useless. You've got a problem ? put your mind to work, and find a solution.
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.05.11 10:41:00 - [36] Could someone please provide links so that I can see what the OP is so worried about? ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking

CCP Oveur	Posted - 2007.05.11 10:59:00 - [37] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Zell Shadowcast hey wow lets wildly speculate about things only in the very early stages of development and make dumb judgements before we actually know any real information! This man speaks wisdom. BOMBS, TECH 3, FACTIONAL WARFARE, AND IMPROVEMENTS TO THE WALLET ARE GOING TO KILL EVE DEAD DEAD DEAD!!! As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wallet! Senior Producer EVE Online

Goran StarRider	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:06:00 - [38] Edited by: Goran StarRider on 11/05/2007 11:08:41 This is what Rells is freaking out about: http://eve-files.com/dl/104527 And as you can see, its clearly based on a missile-type weapon, not a smartbomb or doomsday device. I'm not saying it will necessarily have all the properties of a missile. But assuming its a mini-DD is completely ridiculous since this is the only piece of information currently available. And Rells is the kind of person to flip out without having all the facts, which is what is so annoying about his whine-fests. EDIT: Of course EVE files seems to be f-ed up right now. Hopefully this new link works better.
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:20:00 - [39] Originally by: Xeliya From my understanding the Jump Portals require lv4 sov which is 3 outposts in one constellation under your control for 2 months. (1 month after you get sov 3). IMO I think that is a damn fair trade off, you have over 90b invested in 5-10 systems you deserve to have a jump portal between systems there. Next is this is on the test server, there has been a lot of items put onto that server and never made it on to Tranquillity. So just because it is there does not mean it is an actual planned change. One of the best ways to improve a product is it to try out new stuff and see what the feedback is. Also posting in a constrictive feedback type of way in the development forum would get you a lot further. /Cynical on. Sooo... CCP finally adds in the stuff they promised us nearly a year ago... Conviently after BoB wiped out ASCN and installs their pets. The very things that would have helped us maintain a region. Good fracking job boys. And between that and the slide of EvE into griefing whining CS in space you wonder why you have a PR problem. /cynical. John Smiths. Its a drink you know. SJ. CLS Co-CEO and Standings Director =-

Redundancy	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:24:00 - [40] Seriously, if you post stuff whining about everything because you take the position that the developers are idiots and it's going to be broken anyway, they're going to start ignoring you. Tone it down, take out the insults and discuss the possible problems with changes constructively, or nobody in the office is going to read your posts.

Biltic Creen Minmatar Deutsche Minen und Werke Guardian Federation	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:30:00 - [41] Originally by: Redundancy Seriously, if you post stuff whining about everything because you take the position that the developers are idiots and it's going to be broken anyway, they're going to start ignoring you. Tone it down, take out the insults and discuss the possible problems with changes constructively, or nobody in the office is going to read your posts. Rells: You just got served _____ This post is not my personal opinion. It does represent the standpoint of every single player !
Ling Xiao Prism Project Technologies	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:31:00 - [42] I saw that ninja edit! Dev pwnage at lunchtime - Eve ftw __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Simon Barrow Basgerin Hounds	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Ling Xiao I saw that ninja edit! Dev pwnage at lunchtime - Eve ftw The ninja edit was fast and nice, liked the first version better :)
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:44:00 - [44] Originally by: Goran StarRider Edited by: Goran StarRider on 11/05/2007 11:08:41 This is what Rells is freaking out about: http://eve-files.com/dl/104527 And as you can see, its clearly based on a missile-type weapon, not a smartbomb or doomsday device. I'm not saying it will necessarily have all the properties of a missile. But assuming its a mini-DD is completely ridiculous since this is the only piece of information currently available. And Rells is the kind of person to flip out without having all the facts, which is what is so annoying about his whine-fests. EDIT: Of course EVE files seems to be f-ed up right now. Hopefully this new link works better. Thanks for the link, however there are 2 things: 1. a BS class module with 60TF/10PG ? I can jack them on a caracal. 2. no information on the actual bomb, only the launcher Anyway the Bomb ECM charge seems nice, looks like we get rid of ECM bursts ? One suggestion, if this will be as you say ship limited (explosion velocity/radius etc.) then we'll see frig bombing raids on larger ships. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:52:00 - [45] Originally by: Redundancy Seriously, if you post stuff whining about everything because you take the position that the developers are idiots and it's going to be broken anyway, they're going to start ignoring you. Tone it down, take out the insults and discuss the possible problems with changes constructively, or nobody in the office is going to read your posts. I'm sorry, what. I'm not going to call the developers idiots, but a lot of new things in EVE show-up broken.. what game do you play? - BOOST OUTLAWS (-10.0 and proud of it)
Cryten Jones Gallente Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:55:00 - [46] Originally by: Hugh Ruka One suggestion, if this will be as you say ship limited (explosion velocity/radius etc.) then we'll see frig bombing raids on larger ships. Humm, new bonus to Stealth Bombers I feel 95 - 95% reduction in fitting requirments of bomb launchers. -CJ
Matrix Aran Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:01:00 - [47] Edited by: Matrix Aran on 11/05/2007 12:03:30 Originally by: CCP Oveur Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Zell Shadowcast hey wow lets wildly speculate about things only in the very early stages of development and make dumb judgements before we actually know any real information! This man speaks wisdom. BOMBS, TECH 3, FACTIONAL WARFARE, AND IMPROVEMENTS TO THE WALLET ARE GOING TO KILL EVE DEAD DEAD DEAD!!! As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wallet! Sig material! ----
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:01:00 - [48] Bombs afaik will be Stealth Bomber only. I recall a dev blog about it some time ago. Makes them usefull for this. The sov changes... I reserve judgement on but I'll say this. ASCN saw this coming and if it had been put in game we'd be in a seriously strong position now. We had the outposts there for full Constilation Sov. I am severly dissapointed in CCP for the delays implementing this and other late "promises". I'm not sure i like the putting stuff outside shields. Or the turrets being controled by players. Does this mean you have to be online to control your guns? Do they auto target if no-one is on? Admittedly this makes drivebys on pos's easier but... what happens if your friendly gankers dual DD the pos. all your structures outside die instantly? This is a pretty damn major change. I'll give BoB their due. Perfectly played. They now have the lead in supercaps. Feyth will be a fortress, so no going in that way. The Northern way in is held by a substantial buffer. You'll not be able to shift them from Delve now. Nice little ISK earner. Welcome to being a 2nd class citizen in eve. SJ. CLS Co-CEO and Standings Director =-
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:01:00 - [49] I worry about bombs. While they are hard to target small ships, what to stop someone from having a BS at the gate tanked against that type of bomb? The blob just keeps a constant lock on their own BS and bombs it whenever someone jumps in. Completely removes any locking time considerations.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:02:00 - [50] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 11/05/2007 12:01:46 Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: CCP Oveur Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Zell Shadowcast hey wow lets wildly speculate about things only in the very early stages of development and make dumb judgements before we actually know any real information! This man speaks wisdom. BOMBS, TECH 3, FACTIONAL WARFARE, AND IMPROVEMENTS TO THE WALLET ARE GOING TO KILL EVE DEAD DEAD DEAD!!! As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wallet! Sig material! Your sig doesnt seem to have enough room for his wallet. That reminds me... perhaps we could get more sig space? I can have like 3 links in my sig if Im lucky. I want more! Please? :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Shadowsword Kermit Space Industies	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:06:00 - [51] Originally by: Redundancy Seriously, if you post stuff whining about everything because you take the position that the developers are idiots and it's going to be broken anyway, they're going to start ignoring you. Tone it down, take out the insults and discuss the possible problems with changes constructively, or nobody in the office is going to read your posts. I don't think anyone here really believe you guys at CCP are idiots, and I agree that the OP was way too agressive, but then, you created POS warfare and Doomsdays, and the consequences of those two features were highly previsibles. Speaking of which, everyone in CCP seems pretty carefull to avoid speaking about titans. Are you fearing a ***-storm? ------------------------------------------ A big nuke may be nice in a strategy game, but something like this in a game where every unit is a player, and each death costly, is insane.*
Matrix Aran Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:06:00 - [52] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 11/05/2007 12:01:46 Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: CCP Oveur Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Zell Shadowcast hey wow lets wildly speculate about things only in the very early stages of development and make dumb judgements before we actually know any real information! This man speaks wisdom. BOMBS, TECH 3, FACTIONAL WARFARE, AND IMPROVEMENTS TO THE WALLET ARE GOING TO KILL EVE DEAD DEAD DEAD!!! As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational wallet! Sig material! Your sig doesnt seem to have enough room for his wallet. That reminds me... perhaps we could get more sig space? I can have like 3 links in my sig if Im lucky. I want more! Please? :) Boost Sigs! ----
Nicholas Barker Caldari Black Bands	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:08:00 - [53] Originally by: Kristoffer Way to nerf remote reps for the few that actually use them to good effect. Tbh, a blob doesn't have to be blobbed up in a small ball for it to be a blob, it merely needs to be an unorganized mass of ships firing at a primary. They can be spread all around a gate, but as far as the definition of a blob goes, its still a blob, forcing them to disperse is going to change nothing at all. i believe the word blob comes from the old days where you could see an enemy fleet approaching by the massive blob they made on the map. --- - We lost that fight - Quick, smack'em in local or they'll think they won!
ALPHA12125 Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:11:00 - [54] Edited by: ALPHA12125 on 11/05/2007 12:09:21 Originally by: SamuraiJack Originally by: Xeliya From my understanding the Jump Portals require lv4 sov which is 3 outposts in one constellation under your control for 2 months. (1 month after you get sov 3). IMO I think that is a damn fair trade off, you have over 90b invested in 5-10 systems you deserve to have a jump portal between systems there. Next is this is on the test server, there has been a lot of items put onto that server and never made it on to Tranquillity. So just because it is there does not mean it is an actual planned change. One of the best ways to improve a product is it to try out new stuff and see what the feedback is. Also posting in a constrictive feedback type of way in the development forum would get you a lot further. /Cynical on. Sooo... CCP finally adds in the stuff they promised us nearly a year ago... Conviently after BoB wiped out ASCN and installs their pets. The very things that would have helped us maintain a region. Good fracking job boys. And between that and the slide of EvE into griefing whining CS in space you wonder why you have a PR problem. /cynical. John Smiths. Its a drink you know. not even a doomsdaydevice on every gate in ascn territory would have saved you.
Hawk Fireblade	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:19:00 - [55] Edited by: Hawk Fireblade on 11/05/2007 12:19:27 This relates to the utterly inadequate fitting system, which myself and others have been trying to get them to sort since beta. Rather than overly simplistic pwr/cpu every ship should only be able to fit a certain number of any given item and a total overhaul of the fitting system and game balance is required not the constant bodging they've been giving it over the years. Until they do proper balance and any prospect of sensible and meaningful combat is just a pipe dream sadly. It's just a pity the Devs won't work on key fundementals of design of the gameplay like this instead of the eye candy and toys, as nearly everything in the game stems from the root and that is ships, and how they function and are fitted.
Yoshi Toranaga Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:22:00 - [56] Originally by: Redundancy Seriously, if you post stuff whining about everything because you take the position that the developers are idiots and it's going to be broken anyway, they're going to start ignoring you. Tone it down, take out the insults and discuss the possible problems with changes constructively, or nobody in the office is going to read your posts. Why is it that everytime something is discussed constructively, DEVs glimmer by their complete abscence from the thread, making us think that you don't read or care about it. Whereas, if you insult them, they come in numbers wearing flame suits, and talk gibberish that noone cares about. If you want us to be constructive, start being it yourselves!
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:23:00 - [57] Originally by: ALPHA12125 not even a doomsdaydevice on every gate in ascn territory would have saved you. Hey its ok. Not our problem anymore. The Rest of Eve can deal with BoB. Enjoy being slaves. /me waves to DBP in his mining barge. Hows goes the trit for new titans? SJ. CLS Co-CEO and Standings Director =-
Gods Coldblood The Phoenix Rising Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:28:00 - [58] My only concern and this goes too the brains of CCP; If BOMBS and DOOMDAY DEVICES are to be what wins fleet warfare wether its defense or offense, WHAT is there left to do for the pvpers of eve??????? In my experince DD's have been used on any size of gang and im sure BOMBS will be too... I love good old fasionned fighting.. Now its seems illl be stupied to pvp in the future :( .. Errr have no idea what to train now errrr omg nooooo mining level 2 complete :(
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:30:00 - [59] hey hey I think the main problem with "tactics" in eve is the seriously borked balance or various mods and weaponry. Look at the recent "nano" flavors of the month then try to recall all the other overpowered things we have had :/ It will probably just become a new flavor and will get tuxbatted after the playerbase finds the way to grief with it and pettitions start mounting up.

Redundancy	Posted - 2007.05.11 12:33:00 - [60] Originally by: Yoshi Toranaga Why is it that everytime something is discussed constructively, DEVs glimmer by their complete abscence from the thread, making us think that you don't read or care about it. Whereas, if you insult them, they come in numbers wearing flame suits, and talk gibberish that noone cares about. If you want us to be constructive, start being it yourselves! The easy answer is that we read constructive posts and think about them, but that posting in a good thread can be disruptive because most people start focusing on the minutae of what the guy or gal with gold bars has said, and not the ongoing discussion. Then, of course, if you're not the guy or gal in charge of making the final decision in the matter, people can think that you're posting nonsense and not contributing anything useful back, while the internal discussion that's been started about the thread is still ongoing. Often, constructive threads are left to develop with their own ideas, which are hopefully different to what we've been considering, to provide a different point of view. Frequently we also don't have time to carry on discussions in many threads, which takes much more attention and time than checking it periodically.


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