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Making mining fun and very hard to macro

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Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:12:00 - [1] Implementing a minigame in Eve has to be done carefuly, as me (hopefuly others too) don't want repetitive or pointles tasks ingame. I also don't want minigames to replace the current way of progressing characters ingame, I think the current learning process is an ingenious concept of progressing. I have an idea how to improve mining, to make it a more interesting and challenging. It would also make it realy hard to write macros for it. It is similar to the technique that is used to prevent automatic account creation on many wabsites all around the net. The idea is here (6 parts):
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:13:00 - [2] Part 1: Minigame mechanics: When a miner activates a mining laser a mining map of a piece of asteroid pops up. Then the player has to program a path on that map for his mining laser. The quality of the path would determine a bonus to the amount of ore mined. The mining map would consist of optimal mining areas, sub optimal mining areas and impurities. Look at the example ascii art for an explanation. The common asteroids Veldspar would have simple mining paths (Circle, big box, long line) and high value asteroids would have more complex paths (curves, dis****inued optimal areas, lots of impurities). The interface should be coded carefuly though not to prevent gameplay to people with disabilities (color blindnes etc). Mining laser path should consist of line segments that all have the same length and would represent 10 seconds of mining laser travel. Good laser paths shold increase mining yield bonuses and bad paths should reduce those bonuses. If a laser is mining the optimal path for 10 seconds it should give a 10% mining yield bonus. Crossing mining lines or mining a sub optimal path should decrese a bonus by 10%. Hitting some impurities should zero out the path bonus. This bonus should be BIG as it would make up for the extra time spent on setting the paths.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:15:00 - [3] Edited by: Tutomech on 15/05/2007 14:24:28 Edit: asci art had to be made browser friendly. Part 2: Example +- Laser locked area (the map) --------+ \| ____________________________________ \| \| ______________X@4___________________ \| \| ______......XX...................... \| \| ______....XX........................ \| \| ______...@3......................<---\|--- optimal mining area \| ______...X.......................... \| (bonus +10%) \| ______...X.......___________________ \| \| ______...X.......___________________ \| \| ______...X.......___________________ \| \| ______...X.......______HHHHHHHH_____ \| \| _____...@2.......______HHHHHHHH_____ \| \| ____....X......._______HHHHHHHH_<----\|--- Impurity area \| ___....X.......________HHHHHHHH_____ \| (bonus to 0%) \| __....X.......______________________ \| \| _....X......._______________________ \| \| ....X.......____________________<----\|--- sub optimal mining area \| ...@1......_________________________ \| (bonus -10%) \| ____________________________________ \| +--------------------------------------+ @ ponts programmed by miner X mining path In the example above the miner would get +10% mining yield bonus if he placed the point @1 first and @4 last. On the other side if the miner would place point @4 firs and point @1 last he would get 20% mining yield bonus.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:16:00 - [4] Part 3: New skill introduced, new mining lasers attributes and more A new skill should be intruduced Mining laser programming. This skill would allow lasers to get some extra line segments set and reduce the repetitivnes of miner laser programming. Multiply factor of the skill should be about 3x and requirements Mining lvl 1. Each level of this skill should add about 2 line segments to mining laser path. Mining lasers: Basic miner (no programming possible, no minigame) Miner I - 3 line segments + skill bonus Dual diode mining laser I - 4 line segments + skill CU Vapor - 6 line segments + skill Miner II - 6 line segments + skill (but better basic yield) Strip miners - 9 line segments + skill (but tifferent basic yields) Mining to can There needs to be an option in gui that adds possibility to mine directly to the targeted can. There is no point in making miners manualy move ore from cargo bay to a can and mining ships won't need any cargo at all... Don't see any reason whay this couldn't or shouldn't be done. Macrominers are doing it anyways. Mining in a BS? Hell no. The extra time that takes to set up a mining laser path would also make it pointles to operate many mining lasers on a single ship. IMHO battle ships are for fighting, not mining.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:17:00 - [5] Part 4: A new reason to leave NPC corporations and get into corporate wars Whenever a miner is hit (by a laser, missile or other ship) the mining lasers should loose they target lock (aka mining path program) and deactivate. This brings a lot of chalenge into high security mining and would encurage players to mine in less populated systems. However each miner that would be bumped by the same pilot 2 times in 15 minutes or less should be given kill rights to that pilot. If multiple pilots are bumping you that is tough luck. Kill them, war declarate their corporation or move to another system... Though luck.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:18:00 - [6] Part 5: Server loads and abuse The server vould have to store about 100 maps for the minigames per ore type. Those can be generated on a special (offline) computer and then stored on the server. Few (like 10) of them should be modified every month to provide diversety. The maps should not be stored on the client side but generated from server side data. This makes it a bit harder for hackers to write hooks for the client and auto apply a corresponding macro to program the laser. The mathematics behind path calculations are farely simple and should not present any new significant serverloads. As the minigame is totaly independant on other gameplay events (except interruption) it can be even offloaded to an independant processing unit. Network load would be a bit higher though as there is the need to transfer the mining map to the client but this should introduce similar or even less network load than transfering avatar portraits to the client.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 14:19:00 - [7] Part 6: Invitation to improve my idea and make this tread visible to the Devs First i want to apologize for all the typing errors and not the best English. It is not my mother tongue afterall. thank you for reading this post and comments are welcome.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.15 18:43:00 - [8] Edited by: Tutomech on 15/05/2007 18:43:08 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby This would irritate me, honestly. If I wanted "interaction", I would be hunting rats or NPCs. I do not see any point in being logged into a game if you are not playing it. I seen this in Kal online where a player has to stay online just for selling stuff. It created awfoul amounts of lag (not server load but alot of unnecesary network load)... All games are about is playing and socializing. But if you want second part only you can use IRC and save the subscription... Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Adding games or unnessesary attention will just cause more casual miners to not do it and will not attract those that aren't into mining. Why would this simple pattern recognition game scare away casual miners? What aspect of it? I think most pilots are put off to mining becose it is time consuming, repetative and... well boring. Why doesent CPP bring in casual PvP? I 'd love to sit back, read a book and kill some other pilot? Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby This makes PLAYER skills more important that character skills, which is against the entire concept of the game. I disagree. Programming a mining laser is just like fitting a ship. The actual yield would still be skill based, just like it is now. Again: you can not setup a ship, undock and sit back and watch pretty lights while auto PvP-ing. You have to be active. Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby As for macros, they will still take the entire rock and won't be stopped by this tactic. I suspect u have never coded pattern recognition programs. It is hard, very hard. If this trick works for google I think it could work for Eve too. At least this idea gives a big advantage to an active player and macros will be used less just becose they would mine much less then a player.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 05:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 05:49:47 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I feel no need to spend time "interacting" with an asteroid Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin That's not how Eve works. imho, it's not how it should. We don't have minigames all over the place and I don't think we should. Originally by: Scordef EverQuest 2 tradeskills are all 'mini games' and it's nothing but an irritating time sink. Oh wait, I just said 'time sink'. I hope CCP doesn't read this - they'll implement it straight away. I see both of your point here. But I still think that mining should require a personal attention at least every 5 minutes (when all skills are maxed). If CPP can achieve this any other way than implementing a minigame it would be even greater. But please no more pointless and repetitive clicks. How about something like a area of asteroid selection then? Player has to look at 4 proposed preprogrammed laser paths and chose the one that he thinks would give him best mining yield bonus... This takes away the time sink and would still require minimal player interaction. Do you like this approach better?
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 08:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Actually i made a thread about a mining upgrade thingy that people liked and would eliminate a bit of macro loving. Should dig it up. Oh old posts are hard to find... Well here it is: Sheriff Jones thread Looks like i am not the first one with this idea...

Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 15:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby If you are mining in a cruiser, you can barely hold one cycle of your normal mining lasers, which have a one minute cycle time. You missed the mine to target can in part 3 of the idea. TBH I like sheriffs idea better than mine atm. It fits better into Eve...
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 17:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Sam Gunn If I had to draw lines on roids all day, I would leave eve. I mine most of my time in eve, and when mining with a group the last thing I want to worry about is something like this. If you would be willing to mine without a special yield bonus you wouldn't have to draw lines. See post no. 17. I don't insist on implementing a minigame into Eve, but I do want pilots to be rewarded for their effort. Eve has the best economy model I have seen until now. It should not be about who has the most accounts (buying yourself a 1 man band is just as bad as buying ISK imo). And free market trade is not based on risk vs reward, it is based on supply and demand. Market would adopt to any changes. Originally by: Sam Gunn If I had to draw lines on asteroids all day, I would leave eve. I mine most of my time in eve, and when mining with a group the last thing I want to worry about is something like this. The lag is bad enough, they need to stop adding stuff like this, and fix the problems they have. How would implementation of this idea influence on lag? I don't think this would bring any noticeable lag into game, it would be a fairly simple client functionality. I am not sure, but I think most lag comes from too many people being in the same system. As each client has to know who is in the same system and communicate with them (as shown by local window). Having this said I will repeat myself: I like Seriff's idea even better. It is simpler and it fits into Eve just the right way.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 17:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Emylissan Ask the NPC mission flyer and the PvP¦er if they would like a minigame popup when they activate a gun to fire at a ship Please take a look at post number 17: avoiding the time sink. Originally by: Emylissan So when i mine and have to play your minigame, than guritas destructor attack me, i have to cordinate my drones, lock on the rats, play your stupid game and trigger my shieldbooster to avoid loosing my ship. Is it a good idea to solo mine? I think each mining op should have some guards on standby... Originally by: Emylissan No thanks. I think Sheriff had a much better idea than me, so please take a look at his proposal. Sheriff Jones thread Also take a look at the sorounding answers. Your concerns are already addressed there.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.16 19:03:00 - [14] Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 19:03:41 Edited by: Tutomech on 16/05/2007 19:01:53 Replay to Anaalys: If you are willing to do a work of a computer program that controls mouse and keyboard on a timer basis I have no problem with it. But I do think that each reward should be a reflect of someones effort. This does not mean that I want pointless/endless grinding in a game. A good game gives a goal that is achievable within a reasonable time and with reasonable effort. A great game gives many goals and choices between them. And I do think Eve is a great game. To sum up. I want better yields in mining and I am willing to work for it. And if you have not, do look at Sheriffs thread I think he got it better than me. I suggest we do stop here as our views on how and why to play games differ too much to be constructive. Thank you for presenting your point of view.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.17 05:28:00 - [15] Added links to Sarf's sum up and Kill's proposal to the first post.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.17 14:10:00 - [16] Edited by: Tutomech on 17/05/2007 14:09:43 Edited by: Tutomech on 17/05/2007 14:09:07 I don't know to which post you are reffering to, so i hope i do get the right answers. Also note that I changed the first post of this thread to include semi afk mining also. Quting self: To shorten all things up: IMO it is an insult to make me compete with a computer program that does keyboard presses and mouse moves based on a timer. However this thread is not about preventing mining in a semi-afk mode. It is about making mining rewarding for the pilots that are willing to put a little more effort into mining. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka if u wana have more work buy a bs fit 8 mining lasers and start mining ull always have something to do every minute But it is still a repetative and predictable gameplay... Originally by: PastaMadaFaka 1 mineral price increase by 2 times or more Why is this a bad thing? Do not see anything wrong with this. But i am sure that the higher the mineral prices would motivate more players to mine and free market always adapts... Originally by: PastaMadaFaka 2 miners would mine less since they would stop using the alt miners I do think many dedicated miners want this to happen. Each player in an MMO game like Eve wants to advace and be better than most at what he does but with equal chanches. I see multiple alts oneman bands as some sort of easy way out and it is handy: why bother making friends, buy yourself some alts... Originally by: PastaMadaFaka 3 ccp would loose cash with accs Not realy my consern. But I do think (or I hope) that CPP does want to improve quality and entertainment value of Eve. And a great game always attracts custumers. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka 4 90% of current miners would just start training combat skills and start ratting I think most multiple account owners do exactly this while mining. IMO this is an unfair advantage to all 1 account players out there. I am a new player and i do want to become more engaged into industry and production. This is not about ISK. I love space, ships, production, resource gathering, trade and combat... Eve is everything I have been looking for since Frontier: Elite II, well almost everything, except mining. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka if u realy wana add that stuff add it to ice mining and not to ore mining or instead of having those ideas why dont u come up with a better mining ship Why add it to ice mining and not ore mining? A better mining ship / higher yield does not enhance gameplay. And I don't think that mining ships should have large cargo hoalds at all. Instead miningships should jettison ore into space right away. It is up to the hauler proffesion to transport large quantities of ore, not miners. Mining to cargohold also introduces unnecesary interaction, but biggest problem is that mining is repetative and predictable. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka tutomech do u mine? if yes whats ur mining ship? and how much do u mine everyday? Yes I do mine. As my corporation requires minerals for production. I have been actively mining for about 4 hours / day in corporation operations and i am realy dissaponted by it. Not that I want a lot of action, I want diversity and a bit of unpredictability. But to me mining just doesn't feel like playing a game at all. It feels like... hmmmm clicking. And I do want to mine, it is good for may corp. Originally by: PastaMadaFaka i do mining so i can relax If you do want to relax I suggest you keep mining in the auto (sub-optimal) mode, get more into roleplaying or log off and get comfortable with a good book.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.17 20:44:00 - [17] Edited by: Tutomech on 17/05/2007 20:42:46 Originally by: Noodles Rage u are forgetting that eve is not a grinding game, but a casual one.. No this is not grinding. Grinding is mostly hard and repetitive work with little chance of success or the goal of work moved into far future. I am talking about events, player action and reaction. Here results of miners effort arrive just after doing it. And I am not talking about making mining a clicking game. But mining should require something like configuration for each asteroid. This would require something like 3 clicks every 3 to 5 minutes but a player needs to look at scanning results and adjust 1 or 2 parameters, I can not see any grinding in that. But if we do want to go other way around - the casual way... Why not make mining fully automated? Why do I have to repeat same clicks and mouse clicks over and over and over and over and over and over again without even bothering to look at the screen? So it wouldn't require any interaction at all. But why not? Kal-online has egging(advancing some form of morphing ability) and fishing fully automated... But I don't think this is playing the game. I just don't see any point in being online if i do not want to play a game... Maybe someone can explain me that - why do i have to be logged into a game if I want to watch a movie or read a book. -- signature --- A good game gives goals that can be achieved within reasonable time and with reasonable effort. A great game gives many goals and many choiches between them.
Tutomech Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.05.17 21:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Sarf We have to be careful to not upset the balance of mineral supply to demand. A free market always balances in time. If mineral prices go up more pilots will mine and bring it down. If prices fall the casual miners would just go to ratting or doing missions and buy the minerals. I do think that ingame prices of items are set by availability of ore and BPs. So if ore prices rise also all player made items prices would rise. But if ore prices fall also prices for items sold on the market would fall... -- signature --- A good game gives goals that can be achieved within reasonable time and with reasonable effort. A great game gives many goals and many choices between them.

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