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Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.16 19:52:00 - [1] Hey guys, I'm training towards a pilgrim at the moment. I currently fly a myrm with very good drone skills, but not so good gunnery skills, and this seems like a fun idea. It, of course, means training amarr frig and cruiser, sigh, but I really like the idea. Still, I'm not sure. This is what I guess is true from reading up on their stats, say comparing the arazu which can also cloak: - Pilgrim has higher DPS - t2 ogres and t2 meds with the ship bonus - Pilgrim has a better tank - lots of energy from that nice nos, so can sustain a dual rep tank (I was thinking of 3 nos 1 covops cloak, but am not sure if dual rep tank is better or single rep and 800mm plate - I really cant afford that corpum a-type rep :() - Pilgrim is more likely to die 1v1 - Sensor damps work against everything. Nos will only work against an active tank and/or ships which need cap to work. A drake firing missiles will not be affected at all with my curse, and any tracking disruptors in the mids will be useless. Is it safe to say a pilgrim will never beat a drake? Is there anything I've missed? What would you guys recommend? I don't have gal cruiser at V already, so really there's not much different in training time.
Valandril Caldari Reiketsu. Hitchhiker's Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.16 20:15:00 - [2] Pilgrim is awesome 1vs1 ship, but thats true, u don't wanna engage drakes (tho ravens shouldn't be big deal) etc, u just need to know what ships to avoide (and u can do it thanks to covo cloak. Also go for 2nos 1 neutra/1 nos 2 neutra setup coz only 3 noses is faar too much cap and it will go to waste. --- Cheap paint ftw
Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.16 20:18:00 - [3] Even in a duel rep setup it'd go to waste? Or would you recommend the 800mm setup now that one can get hold of them?
Valandril Caldari Reiketsu. Hitchhiker's Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.16 20:36:00 - [4] Originally by: Pampinus Medusae Even in a duel rep setup it'd go to waste? Or would you recommend the 800mm setup now that one can get hold of them? It will go to waste, 1 neutra is a MUST. --- Cheap paint ftw
Deja Nay Fist of the Empire	Posted - 2007.05.16 21:01:00 - [5] how come you would fly pilgrim instead of nano curse ( which still works ) its soooo much better
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.16 21:56:00 - [6] Edited by: Setana Manoro on 16/05/2007 21:56:18 Pilgrim has a much crappier tank compared to the Myrm. Also has a much crappier DPS compared to the usual Myrm. Pilgrim usually doesn't have a MWD, a Myrm has, so the Myrm usually dictates range. Because of it's bonuses, Pilgrim can nos well only if he stays at 12km or so, which puts him right next to webbing. Pilgrim's bonuses for tracking are usually wasted against a Myrm. Quite honestly Pilgrim is good against : 1 - stupid ppl with stupid setups 2 - amarr ships ... *sigh 3 - minmatarr ships if it fits a webb -------------------------------------------------- http://dojo.fi/~rancid/loituma__.swfAlways look on the bright side
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 21:58:00 - [7] Edited by: Ryysa on 16/05/2007 21:56:03 Originally by: Setana Manoro Pilgrim usually doesn't have a MWD A pilgrim pilot without MWD should be shot, and then shot again some. How are you going to survive without MWD when you jump into hostile bubble? If enemy pilots have half a clue they will decloak you very fast. So MWD on pilgrim is in fact mandatory for survival. Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.16 22:00:00 - [8] Any pilot in a combat ship in 0.0 without MWD should be shot, but i don't use them in 0.0 tbh. :) -------------------------------------------------- http://dojo.fi/~rancid/loituma__.swfAlways look on the bright side
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 22:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Setana Manoro Any pilot in a combat ship in 0.0 without MWD should be shot, but i don't use them in 0.0 tbh. :) Still, even in lowsec... ever tried ecmbursting pilgrim with 2 damps? It's almost as good as ecm jamming pilgrim before was... and MWD on that setup makes sure you can get out fast :) Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2007.05.16 22:26:00 - [10] Pilgrim is a great scout ship and can solo most other ships without too much trouble. If you train for a Pilgrim that gives you access to the Curse as well, which you may like more (I do), but Pilgrim still has it's uses. Sneaking up on people is great fun.

Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 16/05/2007 21:56:18 Pilgrim has a much crappier tank compared to the Myrm. Also has a much crappier DPS compared to the usual Myrm. Pilgrim usually doesn't have a MWD, a Myrm has, so the Myrm usually dictates range. Because of it's bonuses, Pilgrim can nos well only if he stays at 12km or so, which puts him right next to webbing. Pilgrim's bonuses for tracking are usually wasted against a Myrm. Quite honestly Pilgrim is good against : 1 - stupid ppl with stupid setups 2 - amarr ships ... *sigh 3 - minmatarr ships if it fits a webb Yes but I mean if you're going to say that then the best ship in the world is a BS, but we know that's not always the case. I mean a pilgrim surely should never die? It can pick its own fights etc, so only engaged ships it know it can beat? Also, quicker lock time, so when it sees those indies... One thing I don't get is Ryssa you said people can uncloak you, how does that work? The setup I'm planning for (requires recon 5) WAS going to be: 3x E50 nos Covert ops cloak II 10mn MWD 2x Balmer tracking disruptor Web Scram MAR II 800mm tungsten EANM II Thermic membrane II Magnetic membrane II I was going to go for 3 nos because I figured if the MAR is permanently running and I may need the MWD a lot, it'll be good to have the equivalent of 6 nos when I don't have an injector. But now everyones saying use a neut, and I can't fit an unstable neut with this setup (3.5 PG spare with my setup above), so am not really sure now. 99% of setups on these forums either us ABs or no ab/mwd at all, but I'm scared of bubbles...
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:24:00 - [12] Ok, basically, to uncloak someone you get 2.5km from them. If you are with an inty or speedfitted ship it is very easy to get a ship that cloaks, just launch drones and mwd in the direction, you will surely uncloak him. It gets very easy once you've done it like 50 times :) And if entire gang does it, then they don't even have to be good at it... Ok, now for fitting... IIRC this fit with recon4, i am not 100% sure, so correct me if needed. 2x e50 nos, 1x unstable neut, covops cloak. best named mwd, scram, 2x phased muon damps, cetus ecm burst 1x shadow serp (or TS) rep, 800mm plate, ss eanm, ts energized membrane, internal dcu... Ok, before you start yelling about faction stuff, take a look at how much the faction stuff costs... It won't all together set you back more than 30m most likely... If you train recons to 5, you don't need any faction stuff and can just fit T2. Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Pampinus Medusae on 16/05/2007 23:27:16 Thanks ryssa. You're someone I really do respect, I remember your nightmare (I think) in privs. Do you like the pilgrim then? I'm just wondering whether it really is worth the bother over say a myrm. I mean mean most myrms have 6 nos anyway, which is as much as a pilgrim effectively. It just seems the cloak is the only reason to use it sometimes...
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.16 23:34:00 - [14] Edited by: Ryysa on 16/05/2007 23:32:35 Hmm... if going for solo roaming, I would pick pilgrim over myrmi, it's more survivable. Like, you run into the odd blob every now and then, pilgrim will mean that you survive while myrm will most likely die if they are competent and keep a tackler on both sides of the gate. Surely, myrmidon can kill the target faster and maybe even tank better, but you will easily kill any npc hunters with your pilgrim, while taking less risks - this is why pilgrim is good :) Oh, btw, apart from ecmburst + damps setup you can also have setup with 2 TD's and web if you like... Most stuff can't hit you after 2 TD's if you go really close to them, even if you're webbed. Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.05.17 06:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Deja Nay how come you would fly pilgrim instead of nano curse ( which still works ) its soooo much better Covert ops cloak. It's priceless in pvp. As for Pilgrim vs Arazu, it's up to personal preference. Both are excellent ships in their role, and both have the covert ops cloak to ensure they only fight in their prefered situations. Just pick the one you like best. And Ryssa, why the ECM burst/damp setup? Does it really work that much better than the tracking disruptors, or is it just to let you engage missile/drone ships? I've had pretty good luck wrecking a target's tracking with a max-ed out/rigged TD Pilgrim, is it really worth changing?
Ciuci FinFleet	Posted - 2007.05.17 08:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: Deja Nay how come you would fly pilgrim instead of nano curse ( which still works ) its soooo much better Covert ops cloak. It's priceless in pvp. As for Pilgrim vs Arazu, it's up to personal preference. Both are excellent ships in their role, and both have the covert ops cloak to ensure they only fight in their prefered situations. Just pick the one you like best. And Ryssa, why the ECM burst/damp setup? Does it really work that much better than the tracking disruptors, or is it just to let you engage missile/drone ships? I've had pretty good luck wrecking a target's tracking with a max-ed out/rigged TD Pilgrim, is it really worth changing? Since most of the ppl you'll gang in belts are missile/drone boats ... yes this setup is best for pilgrim with very good electronics skills. The TD setup works best in small/medium roamming gangsquads
Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.17 09:13:00 - [17] Are you really going to have the cap to be able to run those 2 reps?
Ciuci FinFleet	Posted - 2007.05.17 09:19:00 - [18] you only use both reps when you really need it ... and yes you do ... you only problem is when your target runs out of cap ... believe me :))
Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.17 09:48:00 - [19] But with recons 5 you're only getting 140 cap/6 seconds assuming they have enough cap and you aren't bothering with your neut. The reps use 320/9 seconds, and you've got the tackling gear, and this is assuming you aren't using the MWD at all. The cap only has like 1300ish(? cant remember) cap anyway. If I use the cap simulation in quickfit (all tackling gear going), and don't activate the neut, the dual rep tank dies after just 30 seconds - assuming constant cap. And this is from the cap being full at the start! It seems to be a dual rep tank is just totally unusable - you want the dual rep tank for ships with huge DPS, and yet these are the ones you want to use your neut on for the setup to be practical anyway. It just seems you're wasting a low slot, but hey, I'm a newbie.
Laythun Black Lance	Posted - 2007.05.17 10:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 16/05/2007 21:56:18 Pilgrim has a much crappier tank compared to the Myrm. Also has a much crappier DPS compared to the usual Myrm. Pilgrim usually doesn't have a MWD, a Myrm has, so the Myrm usually dictates range. Because of it's bonuses, Pilgrim can nos well only if he stays at 12km or so, which puts him right next to webbing. Pilgrim's bonuses for tracking are usually wasted against a Myrm. Quite honestly Pilgrim is good against : 1 - stupid ppl with stupid setups 2 - amarr ships ... *sigh 3 - minmatarr ships if it fits a webb Stop posting you know nothing about. IT CLOAKS. nuff said. Black Lance Brother

Ciuci FinFleet	Posted - 2007.05.17 10:09:00 - [21] OK you kinda have a point there ... taking in consideration that you target woun't touch you coz of the 2 damps and jammer ... let's say U use 1 mar and 1 overdrive or an kinetick hardenner if you are in gurista region
Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.17 12:35:00 - [22] Edited by: Pampinus Medusae on 17/05/2007 12:35:19 Edited by: Pampinus Medusae on 17/05/2007 12:33:48 Yeh I'm thinking: Pilgrim E50 Prototype Energy Vampire E50 Prototype Energy Vampire Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I J5 Prototype Warp Inhibitor I ECM Burst II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Thermic Membrane II Energized Magnetic Membrane II Shadow Serpentis Medium Armor Repairer 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Rigs : Empty Slot \ Empty Slot \ 788 shield, 1.66/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/19/55/79 4350 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/69/73/68 1125.0 cap, +10.02/s, -63.553/s 1211.0 m/s 0.0 DPS 1.5PG spare, 75.5 CPU. The plate gives the equivalent armor HP of 59 seconds of repping with a 2nd shadow ser***** rep. This just isn't going to happen in game - you never really have that much cap spare unless the fights are lasting seriously long and you stretch that out, and if you're requiring a dual rep, well then you're probably against a BS and will have your neut on, and will have very little cap anyway. What do you think? Requires recon V obviously. Could swap the kin mem for a DCU II...
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.17 13:46:00 - [23] Edited by: Ryysa on 17/05/2007 13:46:00 Don't fit 2 reps on pilgrim... If you suck your target dry you don't have cap anymore... if you fit 2 reps you must fit injector. So either... 2x nos, 1x neut, 1 rep, plate or 3x nos, 2 reps, injector And regarding covops cloak.. it's heavily overrated unless you want to go afk every now and then... For hunting carebears nanocurse will do everything better than pilgrim. 1) Can get to target faster, get point on faster. 2) Can probe 3) better nos range, fights outside webrange 4) target never locks it ... etc... The downside of it is, that it tends to be more expensive, since mass reduction rigs are really overpriced. Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.17 14:08:00 - [24] Doesn't it have the huge advantage for fighting NPCers etc though, as when you come into the system you can cloak and you wont show up on scanner if you're cloaked, so they wont think you're close/see your ship and warp?
Ryysa Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.17 14:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Pampinus Medusae Doesn't it have the huge advantage for fighting NPCers etc though, as when you come into the system you can cloak and you wont show up on scanner if you're cloaked, so they wont think you're close/see your ship and warp? lol... npcers warp when they see hostile in local, not on scanner... If there was no local, yes... So no, it has no advantage whatsoever. Curse aligns to warp faster and moves faster meaning that you can get faster to the belt he is in and also if you land out of range you can get into scrambling range faster. The only thing you can do with pilgrim over a curse is terrorize carebears by sitting cloaked in their npcing system all day long, and when they eventually decide to try npcing gank them :) Guide to EW - Killboard Mirroring tool
Natasha Marx	Posted - 2007.05.17 14:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Ryysa For hunting carebears nanocurse will do everything better than pilgrim. 1) Can get to target faster, get point on faster. 2) Can probe 3) better nos range, fights outside webrange 4) target never locks it ... etc... The downside of it is, that it tends to be more expensive, since mass reduction rigs are really overpriced. True nano curse > pilgrim, however watch out with raven's.. once there out of cap so are you, and without cap you've got no speed tank so be careful cuz they will keep them torps or cruise coming :/ I have thought about an injector, however with the overdrive drawbacks most your going to fit is 8 (800's) and when your in hostile space with no where to dock can mean only one kill per outing :[ PS: them having rat agro is oh so helpful.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.05.17 14:44:00 - [27] Highs:2nos,1neut,1cloak. Mids:3x damps,1x 20km scram,1x mwd. Lows:1x rep,1x 800mm plate,2x eanm,1x thermic membrane. The idea is orbit at 11km+where hopefully the enemy ship cant target you due to the damps,and if you do get locked you could go out then in again so once he could lock you have your armor fully repped....Note that i never tested this setup and would also be surprised if it even fits __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.05.17 15:04:00 - [28] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/05/2007 15:08:44 Originally by: Natasha Marx True nano curse > pilgrim, however watch out with raven's.. once there out of cap so are you, and without cap you've got no speed tank so be careful cuz they will keep them torps or cruise coming :/ No problem there - a nano-damp curse does not rely on speed to tank the targets dps (outside initial drone aggro) but to keep outside the targets damped down targeting range. So if the target has no cap = the target cannot use a MWD = you do not need to run your MWD either. The curses native cap recharge is just fine to run 3 damps and a scram. The only problem are ravens which use FOF cruises which are surprisingly effective. Tanking those is no issue because they go after the closest target - your drones. And it seems to me that they cannot "tank" them, so you cannot do any dps vs them, unless you have 2 missile launchers fitted - but it would take bloddy ages then (you can then "tank" the fofs by sending the drones to him shortly before he fires and calling them back before the missiles hit them). Although my experience is limited there since I only encountered one raven with FOF cruises so far and did not dps him with drones after one single wave killed the shield of my meds and lights and retreated soon after when he got backup. Maybe they can tank the fofs when they orbit without MWD active, but I did not want to waste 10 mil in drones to test that. If anyone has some more extended experience there I would welcome advice. Originally by: goodby4u The idea is orbit at 11km+where hopefully the enemy ship cant target you due to the damps For that you'll need lvl 5 in the spec though, otherwise your typical target (aka raven) will still be able to target you within your nos distance. Now, if you use 2 damp rigs on it you would get a raven to 8.3k with lvl 4 in the spec, which is much better. With lvl 5 in the spec it will be 7.45k and you'll still be barely able to fly outside his targetting range while nossing even if he has a sensor booster.
Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.17 16:16:00 - [29] Edited by: Pampinus Medusae on 17/05/2007 16:14:21 Yeh I'm currently wondering what rigs. I'm really thinking the ECM burst setup with damp rigs, but also the armor rep amount rigs sound good... what do you think? (This is for the pilgrim btw, not the nano curse)
Pampinus Medusae	Posted - 2007.05.17 20:57:00 - [30] Anyone?



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