There's this cool game you should play. It's called EVE Online.

Why can't there be difference in a way that someone who invests more time/energy becomes stronger than others ?

so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ?

in EVE its not the limit of skills, its the combination of skills that make a character strong.

Why not give more specialisations skills for certain weapons, so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ?

You mean kind of like how it works in EVE? WellGǪ good news: this is EVE, and it already works like that.

This might be how Eve seems to you, young padawan, but in the Eve which i play, the skills that contribute something to the ship are limited and can be capped (depending on shiptype) in a rather short time.

GǪand yet, it works just the way you describe it, because, force-insensitive mayfly, skills are a very very very tiny part of what matters (and they work like that too). So if EVE the way you play it doesn't seem like that, it's because you haven't popped out of your cocoon yet.

Once you do, you'll find that EVE is indeed not like those other MMOs.

Posting to even out the ratio of pilots wearing glasses or some sort.

/c

Why does everyone has to "equal" in MMOs ? To run around in the same top gear at the same maximum level, with the same top stats etc. ? Why can't there be difference in a way that someone who invests more time/energy becomes stronger than others ?

And for EVE: why are there only 5 levels to each skill, so that everyone runs around with the same "capped" skill-sets after a while ? Why not give more specialisations skills for certain weapons, so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ? Oh yes, they scream : BALANCE. I can't hear that anymore. Everything and everyone must be in BALANCE and equal, superiority is SIN and NOT ALLOWED !!!

BALANCE is not realistic: In RL there is no balance as well, and how can there be balance in a space universe, with such a diversity of races and technologies. Balance actually kills the immersion - it makes everyone equal like in an unrealistic, artificial communist society. It kills all the fun which comes from the strive for constant improvement and finding a way to beat the other guy.
There is no taste of progression after a while, when one gets "capped" with skills for a certain ship. In other games that usually i the moment where people quit (top level, top gear = nothing to do anymore = move on to another game). What's so bad about giving a vet, who keeps training his missile skills for 5-10 years, 20 % more damage than to someone who invested only 5 months training time in missiles ? Will this really ruin the game and make everyone quit ? If someone gets spanked by a stronger guy in RL, he doesn't commit suicide as well, just because it's so unfair that there are stronger people than him on earth.

Don't try to elude,

this thread is about the ship strength based on skill-points and that type of strength is capped rather fast

Besides, in Eve you need even less "skill" than in other Mmos, usually it is limited to klicking strg+selecting the target from the overview, klicking the orbit button and tapping F1, F2 F3

he equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied

Don't try to elude, this thread is about the ship strength based on skill-points and that type of strength is capped rather fast (which seems to be new to you). The other "skills" (= personal abilities of a player) are not subject of this thread. Besides, in Eve you need even less "skill" than in other Mmos, usually it is limited to klicking strg+selecting the target from the overview, klicking the orbit button and tapping F1, F2 F3, so even if this were part of this thread, you'd be wrong. Even in Wow pvp can require more "skill" than that. But again, that's not what i'm talking about, the equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied - and i'm posting against this type of communism-like forced and artificial equality, that kills any taste of progression after a while.

Of course it can. In fact, the skill systems itself denies it. This system actually allows for superiority, unlike pretty much every other system in existence.
GǪ

Balance actually kills the immersion - it makes everyone equal like in an unrealistic, artificial communist society. It kills all the fun which comes from the strive for constant improvement and finding a way to beat the other guy.

The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ?

Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player.

The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ? Do you have more than 5 level per skills or more skills that contribute to the ship performance than others ? I'm sorry for having discussed with you, didn't notice that you wanted to troll or bring up topics that are not subject of this thread (= other abilities than skill-points) and then make nonsensical posts about this other stuff. Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player. This is obvious to anyone who has an IQ higher than 80 and doesn't completely fail at understanding what is meant by a certain text (even if that text is written in poor 2nd language English, i confess).

(stuff)
Back away slowly and you might come out with most of your ego intact.

Also, most important: increasing the glasses of pilots wearing glasses.

...
My suggestion would be release level 6 skills, these would mean that everyone could develop just that little bit further in there chosen proffesion, though some of these (especially high multiplier ones) could take months to train.

Will give people something to do for a couple of years maybe and surely won't effect gamble balance greatly.

Why does everyone has to "equal" in MMOs ? To run around in the same top gear at the same maximum level, with the same top stats etc. ? Why can't there be difference in a way that someone who invests more time/energy becomes stronger than others ?

And for EVE: why are there only 5 levels to each skill, so that everyone runs around with the same "capped" skill-sets after a while ?

There is no taste of progression after a while, when one gets "capped" with skills for a certain ship.

My suggestion would be release level 6 skills, these would mean that everyone could develop just that little bit further in there chosen proffesion, though some of these (especially high multiplier ones) could take months to train.

Will give people something to do for a couple of years maybe and surely won't effect gamble balance greatly.

The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ? Do you have more than 5 level per skills or more skills that contribute to the ship performance than others ? I'm sorry for having discussed with you, didn't notice that you wanted to troll or bring up topics that are not subject of this thread (= other abilities than skill-points) and then make nonsensical posts about this other stuff. Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player. This is obvious to anyone who has an IQ higher than 80 and doesn't completely fail at understanding what is meant by a certain text (even if that text is written in poor 2nd language English, i confess).

Well I don't think much of the way the idea was presented but at it's core I think it has some value. Why ? well..

1. Whoever designed this skill system wanted it to take a long time to develop a charecter, but at the time they would be unaware of how long the game was likely to last, therefore there 'balancing' may have not developed the way they intended.

2. There are people out there who can fly every ship available apperently, if they aren't interested in any skillsets other than ship combat what is there now for them to train.

I don't think this problem neccesarily requires the development of a whole new 'infinite proggresion' skill system.

My suggestion would be release level 6 skills, these would mean that everyone could develop just that little bit further in there chosen proffesion, though some of these (especially high multiplier ones) could take months to train.

Will give people something to do for a couple of years maybe and surely won't effect gamble balance greatly.

That are some good thoughts, they added the skill-intensive capital ships to give long-term player a perspective in skill progression, but that's almost half a decade ago, since then there were only minor skill additions (t3 ships, rigs, black ops etc., things that can be trained in a few months), the system didn't keep step with the skilltraing of vets since then.

And there doesn't have to be much coding work or even an invention of a new skill system.
For example we have the heavy missile skill and the heavy missile specialisation skill. The second skill gives a smaller DPS increase and requires more time to train. This could be continued with a 3rd specialisation skill, that gives an even smaller DPS increase and takes even longer to train, a 4th spec skill etc. ad infinitum. That means the only change are couple of new skillbooks sold by NPCs. I'd prefer to train 6 months for a 0.25% DPS increase in a weapon system that i use instead of training skills that i don't use at all.

And this will achieve exactly what ?
Same thread in about one and half year ?

You will never max all of the available skills in EVE as it is.

Being able to specialize as a newer player and be competitive (at least in character skills) is a major strength of the game. The newer player can be dangerous in his chosen specialty, the older character has more tools at his disposal... along with experience in using them.

Character skills in EVE are very secondary to thinking skills... and your assessment of how any type of serious combat works in EVE shows you really don't get that yet.

Ofc. Eve is better in this regard than other MMOs (that's why we play it and don't play that wow-clones for longer than few months). But here you get the cap as well, after you trained all the skills that are affecting the ship you fly. If you prefer to fly sub-capital ships, this can happen quite fast, and then you are "maxed" and are forced to be equal. There should be soft caps, not hard caps, skill communism is a bad feature imho.

1. I already explained above, that this is about equality in game mechanics skills, not the abilities of players, but i guess your attention span is too short to read the whole thread before pushing the "post" button.

2. You should first decide if skill-points are important or not, otherwise your post is self-contradictory: If, as you say in the second passage, character skills are secondary and therefore less important, why is it a major strength of the game, that new players can become equal in character skills, as you state in the first passage ? If skill-points are not that important, what's wrong to give a vet, who will specialize for years in a certain field, 10-20% better character skills ?

3. If you really believe that combat in Eve requires lots of thinking skills, then your thinking skills are not much developed. The choices of action are quite limited in the combat situation, if they are using your brain computing power to capacity, you probably should upgrade your brain (try to play chess or something).

Don't try to elude, this thread is about the ship strength based on skill-points and that type of strength is capped rather fast (which seems to be new to you). The other "skills" (= personal abilities of a player) are not subject of this thread. Besides, in Eve you need even less "skill" than in other Mmos, usually it is limited to klicking strg+selecting the target from the overview, klicking the orbit button and tapping F1, F2 F3, so even if this were part of this thread, you'd be wrong.[/u][u] Even in Wow pvp can require more "skill" than that. But again, that's not what i'm talking about, the equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied - and i'm posting against this type of communism-like forced and artificial equality, that kills any taste of progression after a while.

1. I already explained above, that this is about equality in game mechanics skills, not the abilities of players, but i guess your attention span is too short to read the whole thread before pushing the "post" button.

1. I already explained above, that this is about equality in game mechanics skills, not the abilities of players, but i guess your attention span is too short to read the whole thread before pushing the "post" button.

2. You should first decide if skill-points are important or not, otherwise your post is self-contradictory: If, as you say in the second passage, character skills are secondary and therefore less important, why is it a major strength of the game, that new players can become equal in character skills, as you state in the first passage ?

If skill-points are not that important, what's wrong to give a vet, who will specialize for years in a certain field, 10-20% better character skills ?

The choices of action are quite limited in the combat situation

They could even introduce as new implant slot requiring an (expensive) implant that allowed you to train skill levels above 5, with increases in ability along th lines of +5%, +4%, +3% +2%, +1% for those five levels up to level 10. And I personally wuldn't mind if it took another 3 months per skill to get there.

That's quite a few more years of constructive training - as opposed to the current system where a lot of people are training skills they simply don't need, just to train something.

Here's an additional idea: Ships are balanced with powergrid and CPU, so those should be left alone, but things like weapons damage, speed, agility etc could easily be increased to level 10 without any adverse impact on ship fitting.

........ If someone gets spanked by a stronger guy in RL, he doesn't commit suicide as well, just because it's so unfair that there are stronger people than him on earth.

Not sure, but I'd bed you'd need at least two years to max out any t2 cruiser skill set...

And at least 3 to max out a battleship skill set.

To max out a carrier skill set you'd need to add another year to the bs skill set.

Do you really think a lot of people are focued enough to actually focus on one particular ship?

There's this cool game you should play. It's called EVE Online.

That's more WoW-like. Including all the other crap that calls itself MMO, although they are only a sad excuse.

Not sure specialisation on specialisation works particualrly well for a couple of reasons.

1. If the multiplier for next specialisation wan't high enough you'd get a rush of bonuses as you 'cracked' each new specialisation level.

2. If the multiplier where too high the skills would be pretty worthless as they would take forever to train.

I totally fail to see why people are being so ignorant about the idea though (learn player skillz, it takes 2 years anyway)

There are people who have played EVE for years and have maxed the skills they are interested in why not throw them a bone and open up skill VI and possible VII, it would hardley be game breaking ( can't believe someone actually thinks giving vets something to train would break the game ).

My point is it's been like it has for 10 years if the game wants to make another 10 years then it's something that will probably need to be addressed sometime or perhaps you'd prefer nothing be done and we all end up generic 'All V' alts.

Matey, look around you. There's thin skinned arsehats offing themselves for being called names ffs, nuch less for gettin a beat-down.

Welcome to the pussification of mankind in the name of "equality".

Boy, people have barely maxed out Spaceship Command skills on a single alt. Do the math, there's plenty of **** to train and when you're finally done, there's 2 more character slots left.

Posting to even out the ratio of pilots wearing glasses or some sort.

/c

Player side, if you can train MWD skills indefinite, how fast do you get to go? We had it to a point where nobody could catch us once. How much fun would that be after the first few times? MWD fit a titan to go 20K/ms?

... usual stupid blah blaaaahh....
What the OP is asking for is a way to completely ruin a character and breaking the game, and creating a massive headache for the devs in getting the maths to still work, just because he thinks ...even more blaaaahh...

Lol yes start a new alt thats th solution isn't it.

And have you considered maybe someone doesn't want to max out EVERY ship some would prefer to specialise, I don't see why 'width' of progression should be ignored because you CAN use your training time if you want to learn to fly a load of ships that you will never use.

I'm a retard

A simple exponential function is something that creates a massive headache for you ?

That's a valid point, but i don't say that every skill should be trainable indefinitely. This could be limited to skills that increase the damage or shield/armor hitpoints. I'd even prefer to train a hull hiptoins increase skill instead of training things that i don't use at all. And a diminishing return + higher training time for each skill tier ensure that the advantage is kept tiny. I'm not asking for huge imbalances, a 10-20% sp-based edge in a certain field for years of training is already sufficient to keep that taste of constant progression, which is vital for MMOs imho.





A simple exponential function is something that creates a massive headache for you ? Did you drop out from school after the 4th grade or what ? Please stop polluting my thread with your foolishness, go troll somewhere else.

Maybe if you stopped for a moment to read what people write instead of dismissing it just because you're not following what's being saidGǪ

Try reading the part you just quoted in context. Now try pointing out where any mention was made about an exponential function.

The sad part is that i actually had read your posts

The way i proposed the addition of new progression skills in several posts above (each new skill tier takes exponentially more time per given sp advantage than the previous one) isn't more complicated than an exponential function. You stated that the maths behind my proposal will create massive headaches

stop posting here with your well known alts

What you've proposed already exists in the game, including the function in question.

I have no well-known alts.

Did you read what i proposed ? If this already existed in game, i'd not have to train skills that don't contribute anything to the ships i use

What's wrong allowing people to specialize even further, as explained above

N00btip: it might help not to use them in too many threads to defend yourself

But at least try to understand what people are talking about

maybe if you one day get as much sp as i do and start wasting skilltime on useless stuff

Well it's true. PVP in EVE requires very little of real "skill". Just select target from OV and that's it.

Who will make the first MMORPG privateer clone?

Hollywood stylish physics and mega explosions, fast moving ships and lots and lots of lasers and proton torps

Why does everyone has to "equal" in MMOs ? To run around in the same top gear at the same maximum level, with the same top stats etc. ? Why can't there be difference in a way that someone who invests more time/energy becomes stronger than others ?

And for EVE: why are there only 5 levels to each skill, so that everyone runs around with the same "capped" skill-sets after a while ? Why not give more specialisations skills for certain weapons, so that people can train 5 or 15 years, with diminishing returns and higher training time each tire/level of skill ? Oh yes, they scream : BALANCE. I can't hear that anymore. Everything and everyone must be in BALANCE and equal, superiority is SIN and NOT ALLOWED !!!

BALANCE is not realistic: In RL there is no balance as well, and how can there be balance in a space universe, with such a diversity of races and technologies. Balance actually kills the immersion - it makes everyone equal like in an unrealistic, artificial communist society. It kills all the fun which comes from the strive for constant improvement and finding a way to beat the other guy.
There is no taste of progression after a while, when one gets "capped" with skills for a certain ship. In other games that usually i the moment where people quit (top level, top gear = nothing to do anymore = move on to another game). What's so bad about giving a vet, who keeps training his missile skills for 5-10 years, 20 % more damage than to someone who invested only 5 months training time in missiles ? Will this really ruin the game and make everyone quit ? If someone gets spanked by a stronger guy in RL, he doesn't commit suicide as well, just because it's so unfair that there are stronger people than him on earth.

Just so you know, a rank 1 skill would take about 63 years to train to lvl 10GǪ

You know, in real life there are these people in turbans and Perahan Tunbans ( Just looked it up lolz ) who run around mountains with just AK-47's and RPG's and they fight an army with the best technology available on the market, including, tanks, planes, jets, stealth technology and drones.

The most interesting thing is, the high tech army with all the gadgets and best equipment is losing, I wonder why that could be?




I don't think a lot of these players even understand the difference, so much for EVE player IQ being higher than other gamers.

PVP much?

It's true. You need to know how to log in to Vent, be told what to fit, what to fly, when to warp, who to shoot at.

The error in forum lore is that people who don't list off the dozen things like optimals, cap management, when to MWD and when to adjust transversals don;t know how to PvP and they don't "get EVE". But they do, they just don't feel compelled to point it out because everyone knows that everyone knows.

Condensed version, EVE does not take huge amounts of brain work. It takes Vent, scouts and in the end, grade 11 math.