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Cut the Crap - Freighter Ganking

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TrulyKosh Solo for UNCLE Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 10:50:00 - [1] Originally by: Ki An Freighters are capital industrial ships, as has been stated many times by the freighter pilots themselves. No other capital class vessel (with very few exceptions - see Chribba's Veldnaught) is allowed in high sec, so why should freighters? Taking this course of action will keep the freighters in their original role, tending budding 0.0 empires' supply lines. In high sec, trade will continue, but with fleets of highly tanked industrials. In this scenario every one will have to work a bit harder, but in the end everyone wins. Once again, disallow freighters from high sec, and you solve all the balance issues in one stroke. /Ki 1) Freighters are not capital ships. At least the capital ship skill is not required to fly them. 2) for the "work a bit harder" part: even with a max. pimped Impel it would take you 16 times as much time to move the same amount of cargo. That is more than "a bit" and hardly balanced. I only invest in businesses that even a fool can run. Because some day a fool will. (Warren Buffett)
TrulyKosh Solo for UNCLE Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 11:07:00 - [2] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: TrulyKosh 1) Freighters are not capital ships. At least the capital ship skill is not required to fly them. Seems like now that the shoe is on the other foot, it won't fit, eh? I'll give you the quote that was given to me when I argued with another freighter pilot who said "A capital class vessel should have slots". Originally by: Item Database Capital ships, able to transport a world and a half and then some. Originally by: TrulyKosh 2) for the "work a bit harder" part: even with a max. pimped Impel it would take you 16 times as much time to move the same amount of cargo. That is more than "a bit" and hardly balanced. Yes, it's perfectly balanced. You can either get a bunch of people together and do the work in less time, or you can do it yourself but it will take a long time. With freighters in high sec being gankable it was like this: You can do it yourself in a short time, but risk being ganked, or you can get a bunch of people together and do it safely, but it will take longer time. You can't have your cake and eat it. Freighters in high sec if they are gankable. If not, no freighters in high sec. /Ki As it wasn't my shoe in the first place, it would not fit anyway :) I totally agree that freighters should be killable in high sec (and they always have been). But I think killing a freighter in high sec should require a proper setting e.g. a war dec and not be everyone's favourite past time. I only invest in businesses that even a fool can run. Because some day a fool will. (Warren Buffett)
TrulyKosh Solo for UNCLE Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 11:37:00 - [3] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: TrulyKosh As it wasn't my shoe in the first place, it would not fit anyway :) Well, it's perhaps time we agree on wether they are capitals or not, and if both sides can stop using that argument then? Originally by: TrulyKosh I totally agree that freighters should be killable in high sec (and they always have been). But I think killing a freighter in high sec should require a proper setting e.g. a war dec and not be everyone's favourite past time. Wouldn't it be nice if all freighters where in corps which could be decced then? Since they aren't you're argument is, as they say, moot. /Ki Let's assume for a minute that they were not. Let's assume that there was a similar restriction to using freighters as there is to certain skills and trial accounts. i.e. no freighters in NPC corps. If that was in place, there would be 100+ new 1-man corps, i guess, so that would not be a solution as i can already hear the complaints "but i cannot war dec 100 corps!" As i said before, i have no problem with freigters being vulnerable. But random ganks are not an element I would miss if they were taken out of the game. The war dec is a legitimate tool to kill everyone and his dog in high sec. The fact that NPC corps cannot be war decced is sad, but i rather have that than random ganks. I am placing some hope on faction warfare in this regard. (Idea: if you have high standings with a caldari NPC corp, would it not be nice to be able to obtain a letter of marque against a gallente NPC corp?) I only invest in businesses that even a fool can run. Because some day a fool will. (Warren Buffett)
TrulyKosh Solo for UNCLE Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 11:54:00 - [4] Originally by: fire 59 Would maybe invalidating the insurance for suiciding in empire be a step in the right direction? Also self destruction because that also doesn't make sense if you think about it. This has been mentioned quite often, but all it would change is to raise the value of the cargo a freighter has to carry for ganking it to be still profitable. Ganking would still occur. A temporal solution IHMO would be to increase the sec status penalty for high sec ganking and to extend the penalty for ship killing to all in gang at the time, not just the "unlucky" guy who got the final blow. But gankers do not even have to be in gangs and i don't think ccp staff would appreciate searching hundreds of logs searching for all people that were involved :) Plus, the "remedy" to cure your bad sec. standing is ridiculous. Grinding BS kills for hours for the offender does absolutely nothing for the freighter pilot. If it was a penalty, should not the victim get something from it? I only invest in businesses that even a fool can run. Because some day a fool will. (Warren Buffett)
TrulyKosh Solo for UNCLE Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 12:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Vana Gank Good point, now I see what you were trying to address. But I honestly doesnt see the problem by spending 2 billion in battleships (insured) to persue a target that: - Worth 1 billion in caost (hurt your enemy) - May carry 1 bill in goods or more. Ok, I think you're getting closer, but you're still missing the major point. The changes on SiSi (Concord targetting and destroying drones) will NOT raise the bar of how many ships are needed to take down a freighter. It will make taking down a freighter practically impossible. That's too big a step, and it WILL have major consequences. Originally by: Vana Gank It's just a matter of selecting the correct targets - You wanna hurt your mortal enemy, take the cost of insured battleships - or be a man, use wars - You want to grab goods, well be sure to pick the freighters who's carrying enough goods - You wanna grief for griefing sake? sorry, you need to take out the Indy's for that No, it's not a matter of selecting the correct target. You CANNOT practically take down a freighter with the changes that are on SiSi. Just as impractical as defensive measures (that are also already in the game) are to freighter pilots, taking down a freighter after the SiSi changes take effect will be for pirates and enemies alike. Originally by: Vana Gank EDIT: I can't see the imbalance. Where? I hope you can now. /Ki Back to square 1 :) War dec the target and concord will not interfere. I only invest in businesses that even a fool can run. Because some day a fool will. (Warren Buffett)
TrulyKosh Solo for UNCLE Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 12:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: TrulyKosh Back to square 1 :) War dec the target and concord will not interfere. You still not getting the fact that most freighters are in NPC corps? /Ki And i tried to show you that it would not make a difference. If they were not in NPC corps, they'd be in 1-man corps and you cannot war dec them all (anymore). You'd have to pick your targets 1 by 1 and no more random ganking every freighter that comes through Jita. I only invest in businesses that even a fool can run. Because some day a fool will. (Warren Buffett)
TrulyKosh Solo for UNCLE Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 13:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: TrulyKosh And i tried to show you that it would not make a difference. If they were not in NPC corps, they'd be in 1-man corps and you cannot war dec them all (anymore). You'd have to pick your targets 1 by 1 and no more random ganking every freighter that comes through Jita. I am aware of this, and that's why I keep telling you that the ONLY way to get around this is to bar freighters from high sec. /Ki I see nothing i'd have to "get around". The first suicide gank of a freighter was probably amusing for those involved as a proof of concept. But I don't see the need to maintain it as a full-time profession and source of income for some. I only invest in businesses that even a fool can run. Because some day a fool will. (Warren Buffett)
TrulyKosh Solo for UNCLE Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.18 13:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Besides, just look around the real world. Take the Seawise Giant (formerly the Jahre Viking) Ultra Large Crude Carrier. At 1,504 feet long and over 260,000 tons it is a fair bit larger than the USS Ronald Reagan Aircraft Carrier which is 1,092 feet long and 104,000 tons. Despite that tanker's size have you ever heard of an oil tanker described as a "capital ship"? Try to compare the reactions when one of them approaches the Iranian coastline , i'm sure there is one. sorry, could not resist. I only invest in businesses that even a fool can run. Because some day a fool will. (Warren Buffett)

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